Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

that's actually unfair, not sure if dave or Kmd are okay with this wagon still

carry on

Gamma wagon is good

[Sando]

STANDARD REMINDER TO NOT TALK ABOUT MASONS OR WHETHER SOMEONE MIGHT CLAIM MASON

Put up or shut up dude. I'm literally voting him for his terrible talk about masons, and I figured I'd actually give reasoning. Your constant "I'm dayvigging masontalk" is getting old and tired and you've shown absolutely no intention to actually follow through with it. Either do what you said you're gonna do and actually go after the mason talkers, or shut the hell up about it, it's starting to look like you're just trying for towncred.

[verydark]

why did you self-vote? did you not realize that your wagon wasn't really a lynch wagon in the first place?

I actually didn't. After I cast my RVS vote, I logged in a day later and was at L-2, then I noticed the 6 day deadline and thought maybe this is the speed in which these games move. I was mistaken, and as Gamma pointed out, I'm an idiot for not picking up on the sarcasm.

[northsidegal]

@aster

, would prefer to extend deadlines

[Mathdino]

STANDARD REMINDER TO NOT TALK ABOUT MASONS OR WHETHER SOMEONE MIGHT CLAIM MASON

Put up or shut up dude. I'm literally voting him for his terrible talk about masons, and I figured I'd actually give reasoning. Your constant "I'm dayvigging masontalk" is getting old and tired and you've shown absolutely no intention to actually follow through with it. Either do what you said you're gonna do and actually go after the mason talkers, or shut the hell up about it, it's starting to look like you're just trying for towncred.

Why should I follow through with it? It's NAI. Town does anti-town things.

Mason setups that town loses are losses 80% of the time because town does all the masonhunting for scum. Last mason game I played, someone literally called the masonry as the scumteam.

I don't think you realise the extent to which some things can be role indicative. PR hunting on this site is easy. I'm on a campaign to make it harder.

[verydark]

 since self-voting you have done almost no scumhunting at all

Sorry, I'm a bit busy trying to get this wagon off me...I've been ISOing a few players, I'll provide my thoughts...if I get a chance to.

[verydark]

An apparently fake wagon at that, of which I've exacerbated into an actual wagon.

[GuiltyLion]

PR hunting on this site is easy.

same

like when I'm scum the hardest part about PR hunting is the fact that I assume townies are intentionally trying to WIFOM when most of the time they're not even

[northsidegal]

sando, what exactly is your read on mathdino right now? i'm reading some stuff that feels inconsistent but i don't think you've actually said what your read is there.

[Sando]

I've like GLs posts, 161 from Mathdino puts him in my townread list now.

[Sando]

i have quoted the only real game-relevant part of 139.

@verydark: You claim you did not know that self voting was a permissible action. And I believe you on this. I do not believe you completed four games and didn't learn that unvoting is a permissible action. Why didn't that follow after you realized the gravity of what you'd done?
At first i was willing, perhaps too willing, to accept that explanation. But it seems a bit off. It seems like he demands his behavior be characterized a certain way, yet refuses to even play the part, lest he be seen to be behaving like an actor.

I've got a similar background to verydark, played a bit back around 2010 (I played a lot more), only recently come back (he's played a newbie+this, I've played a newbie+I'm in two opens), so some insight maybe.

Self voting was a thing but considerably rarer, and I believe may have even been banned in newbies back then. Certainly I recoiled in shock when a town-SE self voted in my newbie game coming back. As far as I'm aware, the whole "self votes don't count" has never been a thing, I can point you to at least one of my games with a self-hammer in it from 2010. In my experience it was only used to self-hammer, not to show frustration etc or to put yourself at L-1. My conclusion about this is that verydark is not playing like someone from "back then", and I don't believe he got the idea of it not counting from this site.

Where's the unvote thing coming from? Pops says it in 139, but I can't see where verydark ever says anything about unvoting. He'd also voted 4 different times (across 3 people including himself).

[Gamma Emerald]

c) why? I know some idiots self-vote as PR but I don't think anyone would self-vote as mason, they already have their alignment proven to one person. Honestly what I'd do as mason under those circumstances is try make use of the recruit to try and show Mathdino I was town.

What in the what?! You want to direct the mason ability onto MD, someone very likely to die as town, to prove themselves as town? They're already proven, if scum want to CC them then cool, that's a huge amount of info town get, especially if they get to D2 without death.

So basically you preemptively think Mathdino will only believe a masonclaim in the event of getting recruited? It also horribly muddies the water if the scum and masons target the same person overnight and removes a very powerful ability from play... Given the power of masons being 3/11 or 2/11 with a guilty tomorrow, trying to influence that or muddy the water is exactly what scum need to do, and it's the same as mason-hunting, anti-town.

I really don't like Gamma's post, especially combined with the "we always lynch this today". If he or anyone else claims mason today, we're flat out not lynching them.

You've got it wrong bub. I meant he'd recruit Mathdino to prove he is town, since he seemed to be disturbed by Mathdino tunneling him. And I did not mention at all anything about directing the mason recruit. This feels quite disingenuous.

[Sando]

You've got it wrong bub. I meant he'd recruit Mathdino to prove he is town, since he seemed to be disturbed by Mathdino tunneling him. And I did not mention at all anything about directing the mason recruit. This feels quite disingenuous.

No I don't, that's literally what I said...

[Gamma Emerald]

You've got it wrong bub. I meant he'd recruit Mathdino to prove he is town, since he seemed to be disturbed by Mathdino tunneling him. And I did not mention at all anything about directing the mason recruit. This feels quite disingenuous.

No I don't, that's literally what I said...

No you don't what? And you said I thought he'd try to prove himself as mason. I hadn't even indicated I thought verydark was mason, so why would I try to direct someone who I didn't think had the power? Like the more I go into this the more of a cloudcoocoolander I think you are. Either that or you're just scum making shit up.

[Mathdino]

Gamma, the point here is that it would be insane for the masonry to recruit me to prove themselves as town when I'm by far the most likely NK.

[GuiltyLion]

when I'm by far the most likely NK.

whoa whoa whoa

let's not get too ahead of ourselves

[verydark]

Certainly I recoiled in shock when a town-SE self voted in my newbie game coming back.

Couldn't have said it better.

You can actually watch (read) my shock last game (last week) when I first experienced the self lynch (Starting at post 761) viewtopic.php?f=11&t=75123&start=750

I'd really like to put this whole thing to rest and move on. It was an honest mistake, I was trying to do something dramatic to prove I was town. I failed.

I don't really see the need to comment on this any further, I'd like to start scum-hunting and stop doing damage control.

[Mathdino]

*When KMD, GL or I am by far among the most likely NKs

[GuiltyLion]

I'd like to start scum-hunting and stop doing damage control.

that's entirely within your power to do so and many players are scumreading you because you haven't yet

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, the point here is that it would be insane for the masonry to recruit me to prove themselves as town when I'm by far the most likely NK.

That's fair, but he's stretching

haaaaaaaard

by saying I was directing masons.

[Sando]

Gamma, the point here is that it would be insane for the masonry to recruit me to prove themselves as town when I'm by far the most likely NK.

That's fair, but he's stretching

haaaaaaaard

by saying I was directing masons.

Oh my god someone looked at what I said and took it a bit further than what I said in a literal sense, so stretchy!!!!

Turns out scum don't just say "hi I'm scum" and you have to actually read into what they're saying and doing.

[Kmd4390]

...the fuck?

That's basically my reaction to verydark on that page as well. He says the risk of a scum hammer is minimal because mathdino is already voting him (the closest thing he'd done to scumhunting at that time by the way), then when asked whether all three scum were voting him says he's L-2 so scum could hammer. He seems oblivious to the idea that scum could already be on his wagon immediately after implying that that is the case. I'm confused. And I'm still seeing all of this content around his own wagon, but next to nothing toward trying to find scum.

Can we just call your "wagon test" a part of RVS and keep it moving?

So can we just chalk this up to newbie?

^Those feel very eager to make the wagon go away.

let's get it right on D1.

What does this mean to you and how do you intend to do it?

Urgh, really, the entire wagon was a reaction test for verydark and a meme-wagon?

My vote wasn't. I'm guessing mathdino started to want that as soon as he realized North was the only one missing. I don't think dave's vote had anything to do with who was on the wagon already either. Or Guiltylion. So basically from the sounds of it, Mathdino wanting North to vote was the only part that was meme-ish. Can you go into detail on why you don't think Mathdino is playing to his town meta? Because building a wagon in the first few pages seems to fit his idea of playing politically as does the policy aspect of his vote remaining on verydark. I also think not wanting to talk about associations fits with townMathdino unless it was a pregame idea he stuck with to look town.

________________

Mathdino, I know you say you're good with the verydark wagon and all but...I don't think I agree with your initial reasons for townreading him. I've seen that defensiveness from scum plenty of times and the choice of survivalism and defense over scumhunting is something that I believe comes from scum more often than not.

________________

I'm through Page 6.

[Sando]

Here's a purely ingame example of what I mean about Mathdino wishy-washy.

Why should I follow through with it? It's NAI. Town does anti-town things.

This is very definitive and what I've come to expect from Mathdino, "this is how it is, you're an idiot for thinking otherwise"

People who are willing to go so far as to say "LOOK AT ME, JUST GET IT OVER WITH AND HAMMER ME" are very VERY capable of faking those kinds of reactions as scum.

This is not definitive: "look I used to see it as a townie thing, but I've been burnt by scum faking it so I'm pissed off".

He's using this non-definitive statement as the basis for over-riding what he sees as a very strong towntell. He's passing this off as a policy lynch, but he's gradually walked away from policy and back to scumminess, so I'm wary of believing that at face value either.

[Sando]

^I wrote that before you posted KMD but I assume that answers your question about Mathdino?

[Sando]

Because building a wagon in the first few pages seems to fit his idea of playing politically as does the policy aspect of his vote remaining on verydark.

I was fine/supportive of his wagon building...until it came out it was a meme-fest. Then I was shitty until it became clear it wasn't a total meme-fest. From my POV:

1) MD builds a wagon based on fairly little, but hey it's a quick deadline, and it looks like it's settled in at L-2 pretty comfortably and we'll get some info on who does/doesn't join the wagon and a reaction from verydark
2) Oh wow that's a big WTF moment from verydark, interesting to see what people think of the wagon (I at this point start pointing finger at GL btw)
3) Oh WHAT THE FUCK, seriously, this was a meme-wagon and we're not getting info out of the 5 people that put verydark to L-2 on basically nothing because they just joined it for a joke?! Fuck you, you just wasted a huge amount of time for a joke.
4) 161 - oh, right, reads based on the wagon, cool.