Team Mafia 2018 Results and Postmortem

[Centipede Syndrome]

that's silly

the entrance requirement is

1. your ability to actually find a team to play with

2. your ability to not get intimidated by having to "play" 5 games with 75 players

there's an argument that players should be background checked with whatever magic tools the mods use to make sure they're not alts (Smocaine, Sauce) but idk what software they use so that might not be feasible

i think sauce shouldn't have been allowed to play but that's about it really

I mean, throw in "you're a member of this site as proven to having played 1 game" and yeah, that's basically it.

[Mathdino]

if the mods knew they were banned alts they would be banned not just blocked from team mafia lmao

i mean sauce was pretty obvious

idk if what the mods use is like an automatic checker/bot that flags accounts

or if they have to specifically check an account to see what client IDs they've used and then search against others

if the latter, then yeah just check all the accounts that are new to the event

[Ellibereth]

Oh yeah I'll get to the team pt's we've been authorized to open in a bit.

[mhsmith0]

From town to scum favouring, I'd probably rank them

White Flag
Ether Normal
Alisae Theme
Beeboy Inventions
mhsmith Normal

With the qualifier that it's really hard to tell for the theme and I definitely don't remember every role.

I'd say

Alisae's Theme
White Flag and Ether
Beeboy
mhsmith0

[zoraster]

I genuinely think that the people are overestimating the "team mafia setting" town buff.
I don't any percieved buff is coming from a lot of people getting together to discuss the game if at all, I think the buff comes from some individuals trying much harder than they would on average.

EVEN if there was a buff, it being sizable enough to take a ~48% EV 2 out of 10 town winrate and boosting it to town favored seems crazy to me.

The buff is probably like a 5% better than random chance. But given that EV is the result of quite a few flips, that 5% is meaningful. For example, 3:11 vanilla mountainous has a 43.01% town win rate. But if you give town a 5% better than random chance of lynching scum, that's 55.79% for town.

I don't think it's JUST that having a lot of people reading the game is helpful. It's also that being town in team mafia is energizing because it feeds on other teammates reads, etc. who help you keep up with it, etc. Being a scum in team mafia is isolating.

[Ranmaru]

Cheeky, Almost50, and myself are fine with it. Toranaga still needs to respond. Momo siteflaked (I was told).

[Spiffeh]

Ether did a great job modding our game

There was literally a vote count every page

[implosion]

Ether did a great job modding our game

There was literally a vote count every page

++++++

also the votecount flavor was awesome. I ignored it for like half the game for no reason, then noticed it once and went back to look at all of them.

[Ellibereth]

I genuinely think that the people are overestimating the "team mafia setting" town buff.
I don't any percieved buff is coming from a lot of people getting together to discuss the game if at all, I think the buff comes from some individuals trying much harder than they would on average.

EVEN if there was a buff, it being sizable enough to take a ~48% EV 2 out of 10 town winrate and boosting it to town favored seems crazy to me.

The buff is probably like a 5% better than random chance. But given that EV is the result of quite a few flips, that 5% is meaningful. For example, 3:11 vanilla mountainous has a 43.01% town win rate. But if you give town a 5% better than random chance of lynching scum, that's 55.79% for town.

I don't think it's JUST that having a lot of people reading the game is helpful. It's also that being town in team mafia is energizing because it feeds on other teammates reads, etc. who help you keep up with it, etc. Being a scum in team mafia is isolating.

Yeah I'm aware of that - towns tend to perform worse than random though yeah. How has a 56% random EV generally reflected in practice?

I think the idea of town as a team activity and scum as the solo one is 1) prevalent with the current culture/playerbase and also 2) not one that necessarily needs to be true. There's a lot teams can do to support a scumplayer they just...don't do it because they're more interested in supporting town players/intense scum work and research is something most people just haven't done or don't know can be done. Which is slightly ironic in TM because scum games are more important.

(That said, some scum players did get a lot of team support this event but definitely the minority)

[ActionDan]

I thought NSG was town because she posted like town posts.

YMMV

[Ether]

Ether did a great job modding our game

There was literally a vote count every page

++++++

also the votecount flavor was awesome. I ignored it for like half the game for no reason, then noticed it once and went back to look at all of them.

Thanks!

I still have like 60 song snippets left, I was careful about rationing them because of all the spam. x_x Anyone who's interested can find even more parodies here.

[Ranmaru]

Seeing the dead QT, I'll explain why I pushed Shadow/Marquis over Shea: I felt that Marquis was scum, and people would be able to see that much more easily then Shea. Imagine if it was between Shea and Quick, I would fear for Quick's fate in that case. That's why I pushed for Marquis. I always favor the easy scum lynch over the hard one, except in times when I feel it's my responsibility to push the harder one, which was Shea, I just didn't know how to push him exactly. In general, that game showed me that I should refrain from flip flopping. I was wrong, and I theorized too much. In general, after the first mislynch, I did try to re-evaluate players, but I'll try to refrain from doing that so openly in the future. I realize that being obvious town and universal town read doesn't matter if you let yourself get linked to scum in the end (as that made it easy for scum to push for me afterwards). I'm sorry to those that thought I was crazy pushing what I was pushing, but in the end I'm glad we got it right. If anyone has any critique for my play there, I'd gladly accept it.

I had fun, and I want to thank Mathblade, Alisae, MSMITH, Beeboy, Ether, Jingle, and most especially, Ellibereth for hosting this event. I'm glad I was able to participate in this, as I see it as a challenge to myself, and it definitely was challenging. I want to thank Almost50, CheekyTeeky, Toranaga, and Momo, for having me. I want to thank Sauce for giving me the opportunity to replace. I know there were some mistake from the event, but I don't mind if they host again, as I'm sure they learned from it and will do better next time. Better people host then no one host at all.

[Ranmaru]

EBWOP: Imagine if it was Quick and Shea in a 1v1, I would fear Quick might be the one chosen in that instance. Also I preferred the easy lynch in general, but earlier on I made many pushes on Shea because I felt I had the responsibility to push him, otherwise no others would. (Besides Quick)

[Mathdino]

no one in shea's team except radja would ever survive to 5p lylo in a 15p

town shea probably would've died N1 that game

[Ranmaru]

I'm pretty sure I couldn't argue that. I could have been scum that took Shea with me to wifom why experienced players were alive. I did think of it though, and hoped others would argue it for me. Also, Mastina always seems to scum read me, even from many years ago. I'm curious as to why, but I'm going to guess it's my playstyle. (Ran asks too many questions)

[xRECKONERx]

white flag was hilariously unbalanced. forcing scum to run through 5 mislynches while only allowing 1 of their own OKAY

the modkills and bullshit were mishandled and wound up just throwing off the entire game and confirming slots it shouldn't have

i appreciate the effort involved but this felt really fucking horrible

also we aren't releasing our team discord. lots of anger

at least we got the mastina video out of this i guess

womp womp

[Ellibereth]

I don't think any slots were confirmed that shouldn't have been.

[Ellibereth]

And I would bet that white flag 12-3 if ran repeatedly on the site would still end up with more scum wins than town.

[xRECKONERx]

agree to disagree

5 lynches while only suffering 1 mislynch is fucking bananas

modkills/hot swaps essentially allowed players to break rules to get town read and then just get a slap on the wrist

[Firebringer]

Team mafia was a thing

[Firebringer]

Thanks to everyone who put in all the effort to make it a thing.
Especially to Ether who had to put up with my bs complaining and bitching

[Ellibereth]

I think the one you guys were most upset about us NOT modkilling was the following:

Aaaand our only scum slot is dead. I can tell you why I requested the swtch now and how the role distribution came about.

I didn't want to take it at first because I didn't have any theme nor scum game experience on this site, but I had lost two games as town.
Nevertheless the main reason for it was because I didn't want our most experienced team member Almost50 to take it, and be distracted by the role madness and scum chat. Our primary directive was to be scumhunting and I figured we needed him never to abandon that mindset throughout the course of the tournament.

Toranaga wanted a town role and said Cheeky would be good as scum, but the only reason in favor of placing her there that she invoked was that nobody would expect it, so I spoke out against that course of action, because a 1 to 4 scum to town role ratio does not warrant our strategy to be rooted in deception.

When I sent in the PM to Ellibereth (late) everyone seemed to be content about their games except me. I still wanted the open game but I wouldn't have requested the switch if Alisae hadn't ignored my request to edit the scum PT, and hadn't simply referred me to the OP after I had asked him specific role-related questions.
This coupled with the fact that I was slightly irritated by momo's aggressive claiming of the open game sums up the reasons for the switch.
We now have absolutely no reason to lie to anyone regarding anything related to the championship, except who his partners are.

The ONLY part of this that broke rules (which we forced replaced Sauce for) was the following line:

I still wanted the open game but I wouldn't have requested the switch if Alisae hadn't ignored my request to edit the scum PT, and hadn't simply referred me to the OP after I had asked him specific role-related questions.

Which certainly doesn't confirm his slot as town.

[Ranmaru]

Elli can you PM Toranaga and try to get his response for the team pt release agreement. He doesn't respond at all lol. Been that way the whole game except in the beginning and when he was mislynched. I guess momo doesn't need to since it seems he site flaked?? (I pm'd everyone)

[Ellibereth]

Elli can you PM Toranaga and try to get his response for the team pt release agreement. He doesn't respond at all lol. Been that way the whole game except in the beginning and when he was mislynched. I guess momo doesn't need to since it seems he site flaked?? (I pm'd everyone)

Tora is busy with irl things as far as I remember.
momo still needs to give permission, not being on site doesn't matter.

[Ellibereth]

agree to disagree

5 lynches while only suffering 1 mislynch is fucking bananas

modkills/hot swaps essentially allowed players to break rules to get town read and then just get a slap on the wrist

I mean with regards to open I think the standards they generally use in the open subtopic in MD is with random lynching EV, so yeah we can just agree to disagree.

I can go through each modkill/don't modkill decision in more detail when more time allows if you/anyone else is curious.