Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Not_Mafia]

Is Shield simply a renaming of bodyguard?

[Gamma Emerald]

No it’s more like Weak Hider that only works on someone doing a kill

[TemporalLich]

Is Shield simply a renaming of bodyguard?

Shield blocks a kill like a Roleblocker.

A Shield who targets the player

performing

a kill action takes the kill, while a Bodyguard targeting the

target

of a kill action takes the kill.

pedit: yeah, if there were a modifier that said "If you target someone who has attempted a kill action, you unavoidably die.", Shield would work similarly to that modifier.

[Gamma Emerald]

That’s imprecise wording, that suggests it dies on anyone that would return a guilty to a Detective

[TemporalLich]

That’s imprecise wording, that suggests it dies on anyone that would return a guilty to a Detective

oh okay, then it should be "If you target someone who has attempted a kill action that night, you unavoidably die." (though I'd consider it inelegant. However imprecision is a worse problem in wording, having it be confused with "If you target someone who has ever attempted a kill action, you unavoidably die" is going to cause problems)

[Jake The Wolfie]

If you target a player who meets the following criterion, then you will unavoidably die:

• Is Alive
  
• Has the ability to use an action that can kill
  
• Has used said ability that can kill
  
• Said ability may or may not have succeeded

[mastina]

Reporter and Inspector weren't my ideas, though Inspector might be an original name for the binary Watcher. Reporter however is an old name for what used to be a historical role, my proposal was for it to be the name of the binary Tracker. mastina is actually the first person to mention the Reporter in this thread specifically.

Yes because the name Reporter was in use for the role that we just whitelisted back in the time when the NRG was still new; the role is that old. It only didn't get whitelisted because there were other roles that used the name Reporter (including what we now consider Criers and Messengers among others), in spite of Reporter by far being most commonly "sees if visiting, but not to who or what".

I've been advocating for Reporter to be whitelisted as the role was most commonly known to be for basically the entire time I've been in the NRG and it's about damn time it got through. (Still kinda bitter that motion detector isn't "sees visits, but not who or what" because that's what the role originally was before I got overruled in the NRG to create the role that did both what a MD and Reporter do under the name MD. Butyeah, historically, Motion Detector originally was the weakest version of watcher/voyeur, and reporter was the weakest version of tracker/follower. The archaic not-as-widely-used usage of other roles with the name of reporter kept it from being whitelisted, and motion detector was bastardized to be a combination of both roles instead.)

[mastina]

(p.s. Announcing's wiki page implies you can modify factional kills with Announcing - modified factional kills are something that needs to be looked at closely for Normality imo -

especially

if they deny use of an unmodified factional kill)

That's because there was a time when they could be.

To explain, this is a syntax thing.

There's a syntax difference between [Modifier] Mafia [Role],
And Mafia [Modifier] Role.

In the case of modifiers like Announcing/Simple, Announcing/Simple Mafia [Role] would, as a formatting thing, mean that the mafia performing their factional kill is subject to the modifier. There have been Normal Games run where this was the case. It is...inadvisable, to say the least, to have this formatting as it is incredibly unfun for the mafia, bad for balance, basically just sucks. But it

was

a valid wording, and so, games were run with it. (I would never pass a game with it now regardless of legality tho, because the alternative is the only viable form imo.)

In contrast, Mafia Announcing/Simple [Role] would, as the formatting suggests, apply the modifier to just the role, not the mafia's factional power. This is what should always be done because fuck having the mafia's kill be subject to a modifier meant for a role, that is a mistake that should never have been allowed to happen (and any part I played in allowing it, I am ashamed of).

[TemporalLich]

I agree that modifications to the factional kill should be instead formatted as Mafia/SK roles. This will make it clear an unmodified factional kill is always an option.

We already have Strongman/Unstoppable (role), which applies Strongman/Unstoppable (modifier) (this is distinct from Strong-Willed as it doesn't affect redirection, but redirection is not Normal and I consider it strategically bastard (which is anathema to Normality)) to the factional kill. Strongman/Unstoppable (modifier) isn't Normal yet and I'm not sure it should be normal, even if it's actually called Strong-Willed (probably a good idea) instead.

And yeah, the small formatting difference between a global role modifier and a role modifier is a form of complexity that could cause confusion (since the difference relies on how the words are arranged or how the Role PM is written, which is very easy to miss and thus can cause confusion).

Some interesting modifications of the factional kill that I believe are role-worthy at least as a greylist role:

Enforcer

- Combines the factional kill with a Roleblocker ability.

Squelcher

- Combines the factional kill with a Rolestopper ability (that doesn't affect the factional kill it is combined with).

Vaporizer

- Combines the factional kill with an Alien ability (that doesn't affect the factional kill it is combined with).

Wraith

- Combines the factional kill with a Commuter ability.

Scoundrel

- Allows use of a Simple factional kill.

Striker

- Allows use of a Complex factional kill.

Wrecker

- Allows use of a Loud factional kill.

(and if restricting the factional kill becomes something that could potentially ever be Normal, I'd also suggest

Initiate

to apply the Backup modifier to the factional kill, making the factional kill unusable until someone with a factional kill dies.)

[Gamma Emerald]

btw since you posted an update here, can we get a cleanup of the New york subforum?

[implosion]

It's my next priority after releasing pre-designed setup PTs.

[Not Known 15]

(p.s. Announcing's wiki page implies you can modify factional kills with Announcing - modified factional kills are something that needs to be looked at closely for Normality imo -

especially

if they deny use of an unmodified factional kill)

That's because there was a time when they could be.

To explain, this is a syntax thing.

There's a syntax difference between [Modifier] Mafia [Role],
And Mafia [Modifier] Role.

In the case of modifiers like Announcing/Simple, Announcing/Simple Mafia [Role] would, as a formatting thing, mean that the mafia performing their factional kill is subject to the modifier. There have been Normal Games run where this was the case. It is...inadvisable, to say the least, to have this formatting as it is incredibly unfun for the mafia, bad for balance, basically just sucks. But it

was

a valid wording, and so, games were run with it. (I would never pass a game with it now regardless of legality tho, because the alternative is the only viable form imo.)

In contrast, Mafia Announcing/Simple [Role] would, as the formatting suggests, apply the modifier to just the role, not the mafia's factional power. This is what should always be done because fuck having the mafia's kill be subject to a modifier meant for a role, that is a mistake that should never have been allowed to happen (and any part I played in allowing it, I am ashamed of).

When I did this in the past (with Ninja) I treated Ninja affecting everything as the default and used e.g. [Ninja Rolecop] if it didn't.

[MegAzumarill]

With Visionary and Security guard introduced I think there's enough reason to include another group in NAR for followers and the like, namely the communicative group.

The group is all roles who solely give information/messages to other players, so Visionary, Securiry Guard, Friendly Neighbor, Mailman, Fruit Vendor, and Neighborizer (maybe not Neighborizer since its a little different than the others)
Thoughts?

[Not Known 15]

With Visionary and Security guard introduced I think there's enough reason to include another group in NAR for followers and the like, namely the communicative group.

The group is all roles who solely give information/messages to other players, so Visionary, Securiry Guard, Friendly Neighbor, Mailman, Fruit Vendor, and Neighborizer (maybe not Neighborizer since its a little different than the others)
Thoughts?

What's the benefit?

[TemporalLich]

Visionary and Security Guard I'd put in the Action Investigation section of the NAR ladder - they need to be last in the NAR ladder due to them necessarily being modified by any action (other than Ninja actions) like any other action investigative role

the other "send results PM to target" roles (Friendly Neighbor, Mailman, Fruit Vendor, Neighborizer) aren't really modified by actions that aren't protective or manipulative, so Miscellaneous makes sense. Miscellaneous should be considered the default position on the NAR ladder.

then again, I believe Rolestopper should be considered Protective on the NAR ladder (Rolestopper is a protective role) and Alien should be considered Jailkeep on the NAR ladder (Alien is a Jailkeeper that protects against all actions - then again mutual roleblocks are NAR's weakness but I'd resolve a mutual roleblock as both players being roleblocked with all other actions failing (two Jailkeepers cannot circle protect)).

[MegAzumarill]

With Visionary and Security guard introduced I think there's enough reason to include another group in NAR for followers and the like, namely the communicative group.

The group is all roles who solely give information/messages to other players, so Visionary, Securiry Guard, Friendly Neighbor, Mailman, Fruit Vendor, and Neighborizer (maybe not Neighborizer since its a little different than the others)
Thoughts?

What's the benefit?

It makes voyeur, visionary, and follower clearer. They follow the action resolution list for action types.
What the miscellaneous group effectively means is that your target performed/was acted on by an action that does not fall into a specified group of actions. Why then, does this group of related actions not qualify as it's own group? It needlessly weakens the role to not be able to distinguish between

Frankly using the same list brings a host of other problems like checker (an investigative role that neither checks role nor actions) which is what the misc. category

should

be used for if the system is to stay in place. Although there's other cases like Psychologist that's results are contingent on which could be argued to fit into two categories.

If it were up to me I'd probably separate the two lists since it's being used as roles' results AND as an order to resolve conflicts which will usually lead to dissonance.

Side Tangent I realized when double checking this: Detective has some really weird interactions here. For one, it only checks player's actions (specifically killing actions) but is labeled as role investigation, not action investigation. Additionally, the wiki says it will not get a guilty on a babysitter's kill, even though babysitter's kill is labeled as an active kill on the NAR/normal page. I feel like these were overlooked.

[MegAzumarill]

Effectively the Communicative group is a group of roles that is arbitraily indiscernable from the roles whose job is to discern groups of roles

[TemporalLich]

I'd actually want the action investigative roles that check for

what

action took place to work like how Announcing announces the action that was used and be based off of the base role.

for example, a Follower targeting a JoAT that used a Doctor ability that night would get a result of "{target} used a Doctor ability last night." if Followers just checked for the ability used.

The NAR ladder being used for Follower-type roles feels a bit arbitrary and making a Communicative group for the sole purpose of buffing Follower-type roles (the new Miscellaneous group would consist of Hider, Visitor, and Checker) is a point in favor of just allowing action investigative roles to check for abilities. I don't forsee Communicative needing a new position on the NAR ladder, and Security Guard and Visionary need to be in the Action Investigation position on the NAR ladder for action resolution purposes even though Communicative fits their action better.

[mastina]

The lack of a specific role is a feature, not a flaw.

If a follower sees a mafia kill, then it's a killing action; if a follower sees a vig kill, then it's a killing action.

If followers saw the specific action, then following mafia would be 'used a mafia kill', versus 'used a vig ability'. Which would elevate the role in power to effectively be a cop.

It gives more room for fakeclaims that can plausibly be used. If a follower follows a mafia role, they get the general type but not specific role, allowing for the mafia to theoretically get counterplay by claiming any role in that type. There's a huge difference between a mafia claiming a roleblock (actual role) and a mafia claiming a different killstop action for instance (say, Alien). The mafia should have that freedom.

[mastina]

(Granted I admit this is mostly a theory thing, since pragmatically speaking, if a mafiate is tracked to the kill by an action investigation role beit tracker or follower, chances are the mafiate can't fakeclaim their way out of being eliminated since most town players will see the guilty as a guilty. But the mafia should still be given the

theoretical

ability to counterplay the role, even if in practice they're never allowed to. The mafia claiming vig when there's no second kill might be eliminated 98% of the time, but we should still allow the 2% to exist where they smoothtalk their way out of it and convince the town.)

[TemporalLich]

if factional kills and vigilante kills look different to Followers then yeah you effectively have a role equivalent to Detective, losing its power to detect earlier kills to become more generalized. You effectively get a Role Detective, but I'm not sure this massive buff to Follower offsets the complexity of using the NAR ladder to categorize each action (or the complexity of having a action type list).

This however is complexity that doesn't make a role not Normal, so more opinions would be needed before a change to Follower-type roles is made.



Some options for Follower-type roles:

A. Leave them as is (NAR ladder being relevant to players is a layer of complexity, Security Guard and Visionary (itself a Follower-type role!) have their position in the NAR ladder purely out of action resolution necessity)

B. Have a separate "action type list" (Still a layer of complexity players have to deal with but moderators have to deal with

two

very similar layers of complexity, allows for a Communicative category which doesn't affect action resolution)

C. Have them look for the exact action (allows them to get guilties because "factional kill" and "vigilante" are different actions, buffs Follower to Detective + Role Cop levels of power and makes Role Watcher less necessary)

D. Have them look for the exact action, but "factional kill" and "vigilante" are returned as "kill" (still makes Role Watcher less necessary to the point of a Role Watcher existing being liable to setup WIFOM)

E. Have an "action type list" that only consists of Investigative (allows player to learn information), Manipulative (affects other actions, doesn't include protective but does include Jailkeeper-type roles), Protective (protects a player from other actions, doesn't include Jailkeeper-type roles), Killing (causes player to leave the game), and Miscellaneous (anything that doesn't fall into the other four categories)

F. Remove Follower-type roles from the normal list (not very satisfying but acceptable if no good solution exists)



p.s. I suggest Spy as an alias for Voyeur. (though currently it redirects to Traitor in the wiki, so consensus will be needed for that name)

[Gamma Emerald]

I still think follower/voyeur seeing specific actions would be a substantial power boost that idk if they entirely need
Notably: voyeur seeing a bodyguard action specifically gives a lot of info if a bodyguard dies.

[TemporalLich]

yeah, my motivation for suggesting follower-type roles to see specific actions is to make follower-type roles simpler and more intuitive

the power boost that change would make would be massive however

[mastina]

yeah, my motivation for suggesting follower-type roles to see specific actions is to make follower-type roles simpler and more intuitive

the power boost that change would make would be massive however

For the record I think they are fine as-is.

[MegAzumarill]

Can we at least move detective to action investigation? I see no reason it should be role investigation