Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[ruru]

VOTE: ofrhz

[ruru]

Can people stop shitpost-shaming please

I really want to shitpost but now I feel awkward about it

[ruru]

I can't, Zoronos ruined it

Like I'm trying to write shitposts but he gave me writer's block with his use of the word "ergo"

How am I supposed to towntell now

[ruru]

Also why are you voting NSG

[ruru]

In 721 the dinosaur said that pressure voting NSG doesn't generate AI content though

[ruru]

Zoronos, do you have any completed scumgames onsite?

Also situations where you've been flashwagoned (as either alignment)

[ruru]

Okay, NSG is town

[ruru]

It took me longer than a couple minutes to go through his meta, so I'm assuming you'd already done it before I asked

[ruru]

Oh well, I guess I'll just sheep Md's read then

Also before I forget, I propose we vote on which PRs use their night actions every day so that we always know what X is

Quickhammers are potentially extra dangerous in that they could obscure X

HURT: Cop:Yes JK:Yes Vig:No

I'm doing this for plurality purposes for now, I don't know if it's correct

[ruru]

So the alternative is we randomly vig or don't vig and scum randomly docs or doesn't doc

The vig shot is still probably going to hit a town PR right? Considering scum might doc it (and also considering JK doesn't self-target)

Like I feel like knowing X is valuable enough to be worth letting scum save a Y?

PE: Yeah I don't think we can vote on the vig shot in this setup. Like consider a (suboptimal) scum strategy of just doccing every vig shot, regardless of alignment. Vig becomes a nearly useless role in this situation unless we vote precisely the doc. And scum can definitely do better than always doccing the vig shot

[ruru]

I guess since the vig shot is often evident, we could vote on cop y/n and JK y/n but not vote on vig at all. And then there's only an issue if there was a blocked shot (vig could maybe just claim the next day in this situation if knowing X seems important to the game state?)

[ruru]

Yeah, I guess that seems good to me

HURT: Cop:Yes JK:Yes

[ruru]

I'm not really townreading NSG anymore, my reason turned out to be silly

[ruru]

Evil-duck: Are you joke voting the worst

(as I am / was)

The bolded is a bit self-aware in a scummy way to me, but it's kind of a small thing

I don't know what to make of the rest of his posts especially without much meta knowledge

[ruru]

Okay well my only experience with scum.NSG was that she posted like twice all game so if the RC hydra is any indication then I guess she's also pretty likely to be town here

But I'm not totally sure if that counts, so basically I feel like sheeping Md's eventual read on her will probably be more accurate than anything I can come up with, unless it's an extreme townslip like I thought she made just now

[ruru]

Cop and vig act tonight, jailkeeper does not

I'll have to ask you to explain this when I'm more awake I think

For now, why did you rvs NSG?

[ruru]

I kinda feel like picking an rvs wagon that's predicted to be low info is a bit weird even if it's rvs

[ruru]

What's different about him?

The way they post.

I kinda felt a tone difference too but so far I've only read like some early pages of some of his town games

Like I'm wondering if it's actually scum-indicative or just indicative of being pressured by a flashwagon

I know for example that if I got flashwagoned I would feel super nervous and probably post differently as either alignment

[ruru]

cop and vig are much more +EV individually than jailkeeper

Okay I guess I see why this is true now. I was thinking about the odds of vig killing scum being pretty bad and not thinking so much about a docced shot (with no JK action) being a 90% guilty result which is still super good

I'm still not convinced telegraphing vig y/n is good because of what pin said. I feel like a vig "guilty" is worth sharing with town (avoids bad interaction with JK, avoids the guilty result being lost if vig is shot, and we can just lynch the guilty instead of vig trying to shoot into a doc save for another few nights which scum most likely will do). So the only actual X disasters are if vig shoots with scum / scum don't shoot (vig outs to correct X at the very worst*), or if scum both shoot vig and block the vig shot in the same night, which are both pretty low probability?

*Barring some fake claim scenario which seems low expected impact to me

HURT: Cop:Yes JK:No

[ruru]

I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me).

Mmmmmm

Interesting

The actual reason I was talking about the wagon is kind of the opposite. I feel like your reaction was to try really hard to post gamesolve-ly in a way that seemed a bit incongruous with the gamestate to me. Like if you're Serious Wagoned on d2 or something then a common town response is to post your notes and say who should die when you flip green or whatever. It felt like an rvs version of that almost?

Like compared to your other games you weren't trying nearly that hard on page 1-2 but this game you were super serious and even actively trying to discourage others from rvsing

The latter could potentially be a scum strategy in the sense that posting reasonable logic that happens to be +EV for scum is the easiest thing for scum to do, and just acting natural when there's nothing to talk about is one of the harder things for scum to do (at least it is for me personally as scum)

Do you think it's inaccurate that you were trying harder because of the votes on you?

[ruru]

Do you think it's inaccurate that you were trying harder because of the votes on you?

I wasn't trying harder because of the votes on me.
I am definitely trying harder than normal.
There is a reason for that but I'm embarrassed to type it.

Spoiler: nobody but ruru read this

My last game on the site was with SS, NSG, and the_worst and I played absolutely atrociously. I feel bad about it. I want to not be atrocious again.
I played a game with MathDino a few years ago, and I tried to defend him from a bad case, but I was in the end atrocious in that game as well.

The_worst sent me a PM post game and suggested I play an open, so here I am. I don't want to let people down again.

Also I feel my tone read on the_worst's scum claim joke was a legit place to start so I figured why not start there and go.

Oh wow, this feels extremely unlikely to be faked just now given that you started with the assumption that I thought you weren't reacting to the wagon

[ruru]

VOTE: ofrhz

[ruru]

Just kidding

VOTE: BlackStar

[ruru]

I feel like 197 was super town and so it's less likely to me that you post 217 as town

And I don't feel like 215 even implied Zoronos was scumreading ofrhz?

[ruru]

Like of all the players here right now I would be most interested in why not-Zoronos aren't voting ofrhz moreso than why Zoronos isn't if that makes sense

[ruru]

How closely have you been reading the thread recently?

[ruru]

Hmm

[ruru]

How do you read ofrhz? (@BlackStar)

[ruru]

I don't like the fact that he popped up as soon as we mentioned him or the fact that he hasn't tried to contribute anything so far, so I guess that makes him a scum lean. But if he's scum then it would make it much less likely that Zoro is scum. So I'm interested to see more of his posts

Ummmmm

I might be doing the thing where I flip out at someone for just not reading the thread (hi a50 xdddddd)

and yes, I didn't like that either

VOTE: ofrhz

[ruru]

Okay, BlackStar was not lying about not reading the thread

[ruru]

Okay, BlackStar was not lying about not reading the thread

what makes you say this? i don't think the worst is so obviously town as to warrant this - in fact, i think blackstar is probably townier.

ruru is probably town. I’ve played two games with her, one scum and one town, and in her scumgame, she was passive (in her gameplay), like I don’t think scum!ruru would vote me in big text like she just did. Her posts were also stiff in tone in contrast to her RVS entrance. It’s occurred to me that she could have fabricated her game entrance (a few other people were in the same Newbie 1859 game where ruru was scum, so it’d be extremely beneficial for scum!ruru to do this) but I don’t think it’s likely given the ad hoc nature of the content

Also I don't understand why being aggressive would make him town. It seems like a weird reason to town read someone

[ruru]

This game's awful

[ruru]

I think tw knows what I'm talking about

[ruru]

Like we're 15 pages in and I just kinda feel like nothing happened and I'm bored

Like I need RC flaming me or something so I can get into the game more

I feel like you were experiencing this too at least a few pages ago

[ruru]

this is kind of why i was doing the "taking it slow" route, because i'm not sure how much my making all of this clear will change his behavior such that it'd be unreadable, but i think doing this is necessary for the gamestate right now at the very least.

Yeah, this is like precisely one of the reasons why the game is awful

[ruru]

Because I think your strategy is kind of optimal

[ruru]

Worked for me last game

[ruru]

Did someone say jam and post count

[ruru]

i had my thoughts on mathdino typed up in the beginnings of a post going over all of my scumreads that i deleted, but basically he's in the lower tier for me right now mostly as a formality. he hasn't had much of a presence as of yet and i know that's more of a sitewide thing than a "this game" thing, but i still couldn't justify townreading him as of now.

His activity isn't really AI right? I feel like his scum meta that I've read previously was like all power wolfing

Also I mean we're not wagoning the dinosaur d1 right like who does that

[ruru]

I'd argue we can see scum!Zoro more easily after duck really flips scum.

Why does scum.tw imply scum.zoro and not town.zoro with a wrong read?

One scum in ruru/orcfz is probable.

What about us anti-indicates t/t to you? Are you scumreading me independently?

[ruru]

What do you call a dinosaur fart?
A blast from the past!

]v]Almost50[/v]

[ruru]

Ruru please explain your ofrhz vote.

It's likely on scum

[ruru]

VOTE: davesaz

[ruru]

Md is kinda null to me, but lynching him now is super -EV

I think davesaz's reason for voting Md is extremely lazy

[ruru]

I am too adorable to lynch

[ruru]

Lazy would be ruru refusing to answer my question. In fact I can’t decide if voting me is more a diversion from my question or a chainsaw.

If you're genuinely scumhunting rather than scum just throwing shade around, please answer 451

[ruru]

I have never played in a game with ruru.
The MD games that ruru has seen are not the same MD games that I have seen.
The sets are disjoint, there is no comparison between them.

I've never played with scum.Md, but I

have

read some of his meta

I'm not going to let you just activity tell him d1 when he's

clearly

capable of accurately mimicking that part of his towngame as scum and it serves no benefit for scum.him to lurk here.

The most obvious explanation is that he's busy outside of game or maybe he just doesn't feel like posting because the game is full of awful posts of the form "lol thE dinOsaur is luRkinG He Must be scUm xD!"

He's not getting lynched for lurking today and I'd be happy to policy lynch you over it until you do something useful with your vote. This is even noting that the dinosaur hasn't towntold at all fmpov and you could easily be scum lazily scumreading your scum partner here.

I'd rather not have several days pass and then end up in a situation like "oh davesaz voted uselessly for the first half of the game, I wonder if he's scum or if he's just

that

antitown" because that precise situation happened with lurker scum in my last game

What's your stance on ofrhz?

[ruru]

Ruru stop WKing me lol

I'm not wking you, I have no real reason to believe you're town either

I just think davesaz's vote was bad

I don't think scum.him votes me here though and sring me over the interactions he had with me since he started actually posting is probably consistent with town unaware of meta / possibly not really reading the thread

[ruru]

VOTE: jjh927

[ruru]

You still have not answered my question

VOTE: ruru

I was mostly voting ofrhz for not being obvtown / lack of scumhunting, also siterules

Btw, I would never chainsaw Md like that in 2 minutes without asking the PT first if we were scum together so you can stop thinking about it

I'm designated bus on like 9/10 scumteams (ask pin) and almost certainly would be if I were scum with the dinosaur

[ruru]

What's your lynchpool?

{ofrhz, SS, jjh}

[ruru]

Usually means that a player who's known for being strong as town (cough me) can be read by how much scum they catch by the end of the game. Or by whether they get NK'd.

Or by whether or not they rolefish in pick your poison

[ruru]

Also wagon was bad

Howso

[ruru]

I want Duck lynched today, and if they flip scum, I want Zoro copped.

Discussion over which cop checks are better benefits scum

I would be more weirded out by 455 but this happened last time I played with tw and skitter and I kinda both thought he could be bussing there, but he (and the dinosaur) were actually just town

[ruru]

Yeah, tw could be scum but like mostly by PoE

He feels like himself but his actions/timing are like contextually less town than they felt in 721 to me, but he doesn't feel different enough for me to sr him I guess?

Also I feel his being-bored-with-the-gamestate thing too and I'm town, so there's that

so like overall null?

I don't know if that even makes sense, maybe I just wrote a scumcase

I still prefer the lynchpool I mentioned though

Also are you talking about 521? Because like HitAlt voted a long time ago, I'm guessing it was more a reaction to him not liking the logic than just to being scumread

@HitAlt

One scum in ruru/orcfz is probable.

What about us anti-indicates t/t to you? Are you scumreading me independently?

[ruru]

Doesn't scum.jjh often bus scum.ofrhz in this game state or wouldn't the third scum be hard pushing one of them and not the other or something

Like what's their plan if they're both scum

[ruru]

VOTE: Something_Smart

[ruru]

How do you have anything AI on me?

Well, this quote especially

It reads like "but I didn't leave any evidence" not "but I'm not guilty"

[ruru]

Also, by what little meta I've read so far, it feels consistent with how scum.you might think

[ruru]

Hmm

What are your current reads?

[ruru]

Also, by what little meta I've read so far, it feels consistent with how scum.you might think

TW answering questions right now compared to SS disappearing from the thread when asked for reads, combined with the above, makes SS much more likely to be scum in my opinion

[ruru]

That, with a friend's father passing away on Friday made a really busy weekend.

Sorry to hear

[ruru]

Woah it's skitter

[ruru]

What makes nsg scummy?

[ruru]

Why does it make her scummy and not me then

[ruru]

Specifically?

[ruru]

Your clarification on the way that you're forming reads. Because if you're primarily looking for reasons to townread people, then it makes a whole lot more sense why you haven't found anything on me yet.

I feel like this doesn't come from a town mindset either and the read progression on nsg feels strange to me

It's one thing to be aware that you haven't obvtowned, it's another thing to expect people not to tr you at all to the point where you're PoE scum

Like the underlying assumption is that 10 players other than you have somehow been towny, and that that's a normal state of affairs even though at least one of them has to be scum for you to not to be scum, but you don't have a problem with it anymore because nsg said she's using PoE?

I'm not entirely sure I can see the reasoning for the original sr on nsg if it changes this easily

[ruru]

i think in general posting that "lacks town" from someone you might expect to be able to townread is very easily scum indicative

Especially considering this, which I agree with

Like why is it expected for others to find your posting to "lack town", starting with the assumption that you're a town player and that you are intentionally making posts in a mafia game

[ruru]

Do you often get mislynched d1?

[ruru]

Omg, I so want ruby red to make an appearance in this game now

[ruru]

Writing out an extremely well-reasoned but false post accompanying a vote is exactly what mafia does

Anyway tw could be scum but I think ofrhz/jjh are more likely due to their obvtown meta

I find SS's mindset less relatable than tw's which makes him less likely to be town imo, also SS is less of a loss than tw if they're both town

I don't think tw is a great d1 lynch in general and I feel like some people are scumreading him for NAI reasons. I wrote a post before with my actual feelings on him and it's like nullscum at most

I can see scum.tw making zoro less town, I still kinda think zoro is town though

davesaz is probably too town at this point to policy lynch, even though he's policy lynchable

[ruru]

I don't think the dinosaur would lie about this

Would NSG be aware that jjh has a reputation for being super obvtown as town?

and you're not obvtown to me

[ruru]

You still have not answered my question

VOTE: ruru

I was mostly voting ofrhz for not being obvtown / lack of scumhunting, also siterules

Btw, I would never chainsaw Md like that in 2 minutes without asking the PT first if we were scum together so you can stop thinking about it

I'm designated bus on like 9/10 scumteams (ask pin) and almost certainly would be if I were scum with the dinosaur

[ruru]

I want to become Not_Mafia

[ruru]

Because Md is known to be able to mimic certain aspects of his towngame, specifically the ones you were talking about (activity/forcefulness)

[ruru]

Now that dave mentions it

A joint ruru+ofrhz iso shows them barely interacting; a few NAI things at the beginning, ruru voting ofrhz for which barely any reasons get given (the quoted post is the only one it seems, which is not that strong) and ofrhz townreading ruru.

When "lack of scumhunting" is one of my main reasons for scumreading ofrhz, it's a lot less productive to say it early

[ruru]

That's nice, but I'm asking about how you're reading me.

I'm reading you as likely town because moving your vote from Md to me after I talked about policy lynching you would be suicidal for scum

I also actually explain what I'm seeing, because if I'm right I might be the only one seeing it and possibly town's only hope.

If my d1 reads are town's only hope we lost

[ruru]

But probably by far the largest reason is that I have a hard time believing that someone read my scum game in Newbie 1865 like he claimed (my only finished scumgame on-site) and came to the conclusion that I could be scum this game. I kinda think the differences in my gameplay have already been night and day

I find this misleading, but siterules

I was mislynched D1 in that game

I also find this misleading, like ofrhz was obvtown (at least to me) in that game for the early part of d1, and got mislynched mostly due to some gamethrowy posts (especially softing VT when there was no reason to)

This is actually kinda towny though

How do you feel about his reasons to townread you?

I think they're pretty LHF to anyone who's played with scum.me

[ruru]

I also find this misleading, like ofrhz was obvtown (at least to me) in that game for the early part of d1, and got mislynched mostly due to some gamethrowy posts (especially softing VT when there was no reason to)

Also in that game ofrhz had awesome d1 reads and to some extent got scumread for being right

[ruru]

I meant I can't explain further because it would break site rules

LHF = low-hanging fruit

[ruru]

Sheep me then

You can't be getting lynched for calling the whole scumteam d1 if you only have like one sr though

Why is tw scum

You’re also scumreading me for the other thing and we can talk about it in depth once it no longer violates site rules

hmm

[ruru]

@Almost50 You have two different ofrhz wagons

(L3 if it's otherwise correct?)

[ruru]

Yeah that's a shit reason.

Mathdino hasn't actually played with me iirc, he's just seen me play at least twice. I'm pretty easy to read if you know how I play but I am of the opinion I don't obvtown conventionally. Like, math would probably agree I obvtowned in team mafia, but I still got wagoned significantly day 1.

So basically, Math is wrong. If I have a reputation for being obvtown it's within the group of people who have frequently played with me.


You got anything else?

I also think nsg is town, her reads tend to be sheepworthy, and she's scumreading you

[ruru]

My other scumread is pintu

I'm curious about this

[ruru]

i was just about to say that it's not at all unlikely that there's also scum in {S_S, NSG}

That is, my gut didn't think it was TvT but I wasn't sure what side the scum was on or what was making me feel that way.

Okay this came up twice now and I'm not sure I understand statements of the form "not TvT"

I usually feel things like

"X is scummy"
"{X, Y} are not scum together"
"{X, Y} could be scum together"

To reach a feeling of "anything but TvT" or the related "1 scum in {X,Y}" I need to independently believe "X is scummy", "Y is scummy", and "{X, Y} could be / are not scum together"

Not "this interaction is weird" => "one of them must be scum". Like if anything that points to specifically SvS I would think?

i'd put NSG at 85-90% town

How does this relate to "1 scum in {nsg, SS}"? Isn't SS just scum then?

(

Personally

I think the answer is yes, but I'm trying to understand your thinking here)

[ruru]

Ruru I changed my mind after actually reading NSG iso

Sure, but why did you originally think "one scum in {nsg, SS}"?

[ruru]

my main problem with S_S is that it seems unfounded to get up in arms with a player clearly working off a lot of PoE
scumreading him just because he hasn't posted anything townish

it seems like a lot of his reads are uncharacteristically based around interaction with his slot

I felt like smarts position on NSG was reasonable reading through his side of the conversation

Huh

[ruru]

Hmmmmmmmm

I kinda want to say scum.you doesn't post something so lynchbaity?

I do see the {tw, zoro} possibility, especially zoro's recent posting felt like SvS

But then zoro's posting overall feels town to me at this point and I feel like drawing conclusions off a small number of scummy posts from a player who produces a lot of posts is extremely likely to give false positives

Especially if we're talking about flipping tw first, like if zoro is likely town then him making SvS-y posts about tw doesn't make tw very much more likely to flip scum

So I kinda want to ignore it for now?

[ruru]

S_S sure is scummy here, but if i put myself in his shoes, his position on NSG actually seems reasonable

if i already know smart is town

This is the part I saw as lynchbaity

[ruru]

I just meant I thought it looked somewhat like a tmi slip (which I don't think scum.math actually makes here)

[ruru]

Like I think scum would be too self-aware to post something that resembles a tmi slip in that way

[ruru]

I think we'll win more games by mostly trusting Md's nsg read than being paranoid about it (also, she seems town anyway)

Even if he lies every time about her as scum, it's like having an 80% sane cop result or something

Which isn't to mention that lying every time is far from equilibrium and it's super risky for him because if nsg becomes obvious scum then he's getting lynched afterward too

[ruru]

Also this isn't even considering the scum.Md+town.nsg case where if he lies he gets omgused for the rest of the game which can't be good for scum

[ruru]

The thing is ofrhz was pretty town to me for the first half of d1 in 721 and I'm not feeling the same towniness here

That's actually part of why I didn't want to say much about my vote, because my mental model of ofrhz is that she doesn't post well when under serious suspicion as town

So I didn't want to interfere with her natural obvtowning if she's actually town

[ruru]

504 claiming that your meta this game is like night and day from your completed scum meta is a ballsy claim to make as scum

Hmmmmmmmm

I hadn't looked at it from that angle

Actually I guess I misread a50 in a somewhat comparable situation in purgatory? (He vanity wagoned himself for heaven when he was very not-obvtown)

[ruru]

I see what you mean but I feel like the reason why I naturally obvtown is also why I got mislynched so I’m trying to not spew dumb shit too much

Hmmmm

This post is awkward for scum to make, isn't it

[ruru]

I see what you mean but I feel like the reason why I naturally obvtown is also why I got mislynched so I’m trying to not spew dumb shit too much

Hmmmm

This post is awkward for scum to make, isn't it

Also if you're town please obvtown if only for a little while

I'm going to be paranoid of your slot forever if you don't

[ruru]

Why is SS only honorable mention

[ruru]

newbie 1865

brbrb

if this is a good example of her scum game I am highly upside down in how I interpret ofrhz

definitely colder on her now but I've been getting colder anyway

I feel like 1867 is better

[ruru]

Ugh

I actually like SS more on the last 2 pages

[ruru]

But I still think saying "Pintu's vote on dave was bad" is an exaggeration and that ofrhz is trying to justify a gutread on me with bad arguments

Hmm, if you're town and you think ofrhz is town but her arguments are bad why would you assume she's gut scumreading you?

Other options:
* ofrhz is PoE scumreading you / she doesn't have strong reads this game, knows that getting d1 lynched is -EV, and prefers to lynch someone who isn't confirmed town (This is where I'm at in the game right now so honestly it seems highly plausible...)
* you're misreading ofrhz and she's scum

I'm kinda curious why you jumped to "gut scumread"

[ruru]

I feel like tunneling/confbias is different from gutreading

[ruru]

Confirmation bias, like when you're already scumreading someone everything they do seems scummy

Whereas a gutread would be more like scumreading someone

to begin with

with no clear reason

[ruru]

VOTE: jjh927

[ruru]

for the most part I'm on the same page w your reads unless we have like hella deepwolfing going on.... and something about the game feels satisfying / doesn't feel like hella deepwolfing

How does this relate to the game being "gross"

[ruru]

I mean you're only behind jjh by one vote (and it's a vote I'm not super confident in)

The dinosaur exerts considerable influence and recently started pushing you

nsg is pushing jjh but isn't townreading you

So like, that post to nsg felt a bit unnatural compared to how you acted toward HA's case (which I felt was towny and possibly accurate)

What makes you think town isn't being steered off a cliff in this gamestate I guess

[ruru]

Speaking of which how do you read the dinosaur right now?

[ruru]

Least genuine push so far has been jjh maybe followed by HitAlt? but also I don't feel like HitAlt's push was malicious, it had a lot of convinction it was just really bad.

So is HA town or?

This game is getting gross. I feel like some people here are easy to work with but {jjh, Hit} are just tunnelling me to the point of being completely awful at mafia. There's 1-2 scum here, and I can actually see them as scum together.

Because this reaction was weird to me, it feels like over the top omgus (unlike this post in 721 for example which felt a bit more natural? Even if it kinda spewed your role)

Although now that I write this out maybe that is the town.duckling response to someone who claims to be so familiar with your meta and scumreads you?

Hmm

are there cases being pushed hard which you find particularly disingenuous? we can talk about those if you want?

Not really, it's day 1

Unless scum really screw up, we all make up reasons to suspect each other and then lynch the least charismatic player

I feel like scum haven't really screwed up yet in a way that's noticeable to me, so I'm just sorta bored/frustrated with it being d1

I don't exactly relate to a "game solved" mentality I guess

pedit: uuuhhhhhh I haven't put much effort in but town lean, Hbu?

Nulltown

[ruru]

Oh wow

Are you seriously pr hunting me

Am I allowed to lynch him for this or do we still think scum don't rolefish

[ruru]

Yeah that's a shit reason.

Mathdino hasn't actually played with me iirc, he's just seen me play at least twice. I'm pretty easy to read if you know how I play but I am of the opinion I don't obvtown conventionally. Like, math would probably agree I obvtowned in team mafia, but I still got wagoned significantly day 1.

So basically, Math is wrong. If I have a reputation for being obvtown it's within the group of people who have frequently played with me.


You got anything else?

I also think nsg is town, her reads tend to be sheepworthy, and she's scumreading you

Speaking of jjh, I find it kinda interesting that this was never followed up on (considering he posted again later that day)

I feel like town with the same mindset as 771 is more often like "well her reasons are shit too and you're sheeping her onto a shit wagon" but he just sorta dropped it? I feel like that points in the direction of faked indignation and/or him knowing nsg's reasons for scumreading him are actually AI

[ruru]

I wanted to use this one in purgatory but UglyDuck got lynched too quickly

[ruru]

For the record I read somewhere in HWS's meta that he often gets mislynched as town

[ruru]

I think it was in post-game or twilight of a newbie game where he was town, I forget the specifics

[ruru]

This + her avatar being cute AF makes me think she is town.

I am too adorable to lynch

Also to be completely honest your avatar is freaking me out and I would be glad if I don't have to see it anymore in this game

Here we gain true insight into d1 scumhunting

[ruru]

When I find myself in times of trouble
Mother Mary comes to me
Speaking words of wisdom
"Lynch jjh go d2"

[ruru]

JJH hasn't towned to me in the slightest, and with his soft i want him to claim so that we still have time to do anything if he

does

claim a PR.

When did this happen

[ruru]

And yeah SS is extremely active-lurky

Seemingly as soon I unvoted him he goes back to making posts like this

Even assuming he hasn't successfully identified a single alignment-indicative thing for you in this game, his read on you over a large number of games would probably fall in a normal distribution meaning that he'd sometimes come up with such a read that has no basis in fact.

More likely though, if you're town, it's some combination of valid tells and the right side of the bell curve.

This might actually be the scummiest post of the game to me

I'm withholding things that I COULD be saying because I think they're more likely noise than signal.
But I always do that. (Or at least I try!)

Especially considering this claim

I also don't really like that he went on V/LA near eod without even voting somewhere or giving reads, the day legit could've ended while we was afk

I'm still interested in an SS lynch as well

[ruru]

Yeah tw is the one who softed

[ruru]

nsg how confident are you on blackstar town atm?

[ruru]

i don't cc.

[ruru]

Lolhammering you is only +ev for the real jk if you're scum so I don't see why not

[ruru]

Idk if blackstar's vote was really scummy

But if he is scum it could be partner-indicative with SS seeing as he previously was acting sketched out by the jjh wagon

[ruru]

My reads are basically:
HitAlt, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, and Zoronos are bad lynches because I townread them.
jjh is obviously a bad lynch barring a counterclaim.
Mathdino, davesaz and northsidegal are bad lynches because I haven't seen anything especially bad from them and they should be easier to sort later in the game.

I still don't have any scumreads worth anything. But since you're looking for consensus, my preferred lynch would be one of {pintu, HWS, ofrhz}.

Why is nsg is some weird null area of your readslist when she can basically only be scum with the dinosaur

[ruru]

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't be pushing lynches until hws/md/tw post

Currently we can just lynch jjh if there's a cc

If one of those three is lined up for a lynch (including for example by PoE if other wagons fail), we can no longer trust a cc

[ruru]

jjh claimed jk

[ruru]

How do you post without reading pagetop

[ruru]

I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't be pushing lynches until hws/md/tw post

Currently we can just lynch jjh if there's a cc

If one of those three is lined up for a lynch (including for example by PoE if other wagons fail), we can no longer trust a cc

Actually disregard this, having thought about the situation more

[ruru]

Oh fucking lol I misses the claim
I don't believe it because I'm pretty sure that's what scum would do
But I don't cc
VOTE: the worst

I think scum would (redacted) so I'm surprised by your conclusion

But anyway if you think jjh is fake claiming doesn't that make tw a worse lynch

[ruru]

I meant lynching tw if jjh is jk is better than than lynching tw if jjh is scum

Not that lynching jjh is better than lynching tw (obviously lynching jjh is off the table without a cc, and jk not ccing seems gamethrowy)

[ruru]

The worst softed PR. Wasn't gonna bring it up but somebody else already did. Makes sense both as a real PR and as a VT trying to draw the kill.

Except softing cop/vig in this setup, D1 nontheless, makes very little sense.
And since he doesn't CC the JK..?

He softed before the jk claim though, so vt trying to draw the nk or cop/vig double bluffing is still possible

His other motivation would have to be that he really wants jjh to claim for one reason or another and is willing to soft PR (and likely tanks a lynch later if he's VT) just to achieve that. I think this points to either a) he

really

really thought jjh is scum, which seems unlikely given how uneventful d1 has been or b) he's scum, especially doctor, as doctor benefits more than the other scums from getting read as PR in this setup

Anyway I would contribute to a tw lynch assuming jjh is town

[ruru]

Also worth mentioning if jjh is scum he just quickhammers anyone here

Scum would already know HWS is JK so they don't lose any information by quickhammering

Let's not put anyone except jjh anywhere near hammer until HWS tells us jjh's alignment

[ruru]

[ruru]

What if the dinosaur is scum and he's going to use the fact that jjh claimed jk to argue that he can't possibly be on the scumteam

[ruru]

He's known for his mechanical play so the assumption is that if he were scum, he would tell his teammates to make optimal claims

I don't believe it because I'm pretty sure that's what scum would do

Anyway I still find this odd, could be tmi

[ruru]

Yeah, I'm not sure what he was thinking if he's town

I also felt like he could have been trying to dumbtell on that page, reading line one and not line two of the three-line pagetop just seems a bit implausible to me

Now I'm wondering is tw still scum (assuming jjh scum)? I'm curious what in particular nsg saw as theatrical about them

I guess tw softing there makes sense if like tw is doctor and jjh is rolecop or something, tw gets the towncred when jjh flips and the stronger scum roles stay alive

[ruru]

I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't find 1279/1281 independently weird

I mean, jjh claiming jk

does

make Md less likely to be scum in a vacuum

[ruru]

More strongly, I think shooting hws should be a quite infrequent play for vig there

Scum have to doc him frequently anyway, and a vig guilty on hws is useless whereas it usually gives a lot of information

But there's like no way jjh flips town right? I think?

[ruru]

Speak of the duckling

[ruru]

claiming anything other than jailkeeper allows town to do the "jailkeeper flips two coins" or whatever, and then scum has to gamble on whether or not to actually shoot the cop or vig. I don't see it as suboptimal.

Would cop/vig even cc d1?

I feel like jk flipping coins has multiple fairly bad interactions with X

[ruru]

Peek BlackStar inno

NSG being killed heavily implicates the worst, who I was just about to come into the day defending.

Heavily is a strong word for nka on a pseudo-IC

As far as I can tell scum.you might benefit more from nsg being dead than scum.tw does (not because of her d1 reads which are guaranteed to get wifomed, but because of familiarity)

I feel jjh not flipping rolecop also makes bussing somewhat less likely than otherwise

Outside possibility of hws just suicide bombing jjh

Did either of them crumb

Please tell me yall crumbed

Also okay so I'm kinda curious what this was about

Would you seriously have considered lynching hws if jjh crumbed and hws didn't?

[ruru]

What would you say the jailkeeper would ideally do?

I find voting for this d1 to be highly suspicious (ofrhz, davesaz)

[ruru]

Pin's kinda scummy to me except all the way back here there was this

Yeah too late ofrhz I already figured it out, still think there's no relation between a bad vote and me being scum but sure you do you

VOTE: jjh this is a better vote for you

When we were scum together he tried really hard to not actually bus me, even though it looked like he was willing to lynch me and this feels way different from that (especially if ofrhz isn't scum, I guess this doesn't apply if ofrhz flips red though)

Are you calling him a willing busser based on games other than 1859?

[ruru]

I meant nsg as IC, not tw

[ruru]

davesaz-scum --> HitAlt --> ofrhz --> the worst

davesaz-town --> ofrhz --> HitAlt --> the worst

Do you still think jjh was more likely a bus than not?

I would think town.davesaz + scum.ofrhz => flip tw before HA

copclear {worst, pintu, ruru} and we're good to go

If I'm not cop then cop shouldn't waste a shot on me

If you think I could be scum, then sort pin before me because he's claiming cop ability on me anyway

Also like there's no way you're not in the cop pool now that framer is dead unless like literally everyone in the game agrees to strongly apply BoP to your slot no matter what

I think HA should be in the cop pool too

[ruru]

I would think town.davesaz + scum.ofrhz => flip tw before HA

On second thought this doesn't make any sense

I don't remember what I was thinking now but I probably meant town.davesaz + town.ofrhz => flip tw

[ruru]

@ofhrz What do you think about jjh?

I think him asking other people why they townread ruru was towny

I remember from Open 721? that it was town who tended to push back when ruru was being widely townread

He also has the same scumreads as me

Not much else stood out

Hmm, I was about to case why ofrhz is scummier than davesaz (jjh defense + "in my last game / in a different context town/scum did X" is a really easy argument for scum to make and ofrhz also used it in one of her scumgames) but now I'm wondering does scum really type the bolded knowing jjh is scum

[ruru]

@HA When did you start townreading zoro?

[ruru]

Mathdino should be able to meta townread me on my posting this game 100%.

Thoughts on this?

[ruru]

I'm curious on your stance on ofrhz vs. davesaz considering the most convincing reason you gave for town.ofrhz was basically that she made a similar post

And they have the same bad voting

[ruru]

Just so we're clear I want to lynch davesaz too if you're town

I don't have a real reason for preferring davesaz or ofrhz but I'm suspicious of you pushing one much harder than the other because they're in the same general bin to me

If jjh was designated bus, I believe in ofrhz town
If jjh was undesignated bus, you+ofrhz seems quite possible
(If jjh was not bussed, obviously you and ofrhz are town)

[ruru]

Are you saying he would always be designated bus with you

[ruru]

Like, framer dying d1 vs d2 is pretty significant even if the player is readable

I'm not sure I buy into framer being designated bus in general

[ruru]

Wait you're actually 100% accurate?

I thought you were like, 50% or something else much better than random

[ruru]

... okay I'm willing to lose to the one time you take the wifom line instead

Especially since jk was obvious in this game and you could be making the same argument without doing all three of shooting nsg and having jjh make a suboptimal claim and having jjh claim a role that was already obvious

VOTE: davesaz

[ruru]

She was the towniest even before he flipped

If the vig actually shot nsg town doesn't deserve to win

@pin do you have any meta where you entertained an idea

this

tinfoily as town? Because it feels anti-gamesolvey to me atm

[ruru]

Okay so first of all from my perspective the dinosaur is pretty much confirmed town because his self-meta argument would still mostly work with far less self-sabotage than the scumteam already made

I'm not a 100% pr hunter or as strong a player as he is in general and if I were scum I would've just planned to shoot hws based on that one post and then fake claim cop/vig at L1

There being multiple suboptimal decisions makes me think there's no way he would risk losing that much EV on an argument that a lot of Reads Players are just going to ignore

Also the logic of MathDino shooting a maybe-PR over a claimed PR requires 1) MathDino to ignore a claimed PR and 2) a vig to exist that was willing to shoot NSG.

For #1 I do think he would shoot for cop/vig in this setup and save the obvious jk for later, and apparently by meta he wouldn't miss if he was actually trying?

But #2 is a big assumption, she was like universally townread

[ruru]

How do you read davesaz atm, pin?

[ruru]

So like with 1568 I somehow was very strongly reminded of this

It's like similarly timed a little bit into d2, and is kind of a wallpost but seems to have a lot of things in it that you "don't think anymore" which I'm not sure why a town player posts as opposed to a scum player trying to demonstrate town thoughts?

Is it coincidence?

[ruru]

Actually can you post full readslist now?

I don't need explanations, just names and bins

[ruru]

So no, timing is totally different (I mean yeah both were on D2 but one was after being very productive and the other is one of the first content posts I did in the game), "kind of a wallpost" is NAI and in one I was giving a solid townread to ofrhz to pocket her and in the other I'm just putting my thoughts for everyone to see.

Part of the similarity I'm seeing is that both of them were the first time you really revealed information d2 (and you mentioned in the PT that you specifically avoided giving reads early d2 in case of a cop guilty), but in each case it was a long post that actually didn't give much information

[ruru]

@davesaz Can you post reads as well?

[ruru]

HWS's recent posting intensified the scumread.

Umm, is this what a would-be weak townread looks like?

pinturicchio (medium)

If you aren't bluffing then vote there and make a case

Two players who are scumreading each other both voting for your hypo-inno

[ruru]

Why's pin scum from your perspective

[ruru]

Actually I just read davesaz scum meta and I don't like this wagon or the davesaz+pin theory anymore

Has anyone played with davesaz other than math?

How about this

VOTE: HitAlt

[ruru]

He was explicitly PR-reading jjh though before the claim

jjh wasn't really projecting PR to me so I'm kinda curious where the read came from

[ruru]

Hey guys I had a sudden revelation last night

Since I'm not the cop, and one of our peeks is legit, blackstar is actually >rand scum

Let's lynch him today

[ruru]

My post was extremely sarcastic

[ruru]

Hey ofrhz/pin vote hitalt thanks

[ruru]

Although actually I wanna hear the mod response about n0 talk first

I'm not really independently townreading you and shooting nsg alone could easily be a wifom play

[ruru]

this was the interaction

Spoiler:

I see that MathDino isn't cleared yet either. (although I still enjoy their posting very much)
Good for us in the end I think.
Scum will have to show some of their hand when they kill if we refuse to lock anyone as town.

Tell me when you guys agree that the worst can be lynched today, and I'll be around to unvote at L-1. (???)

Preflips are bad, Math voting me is questionable, I don't know what IIoA means and the worst is still a really good lynch rn

incorrect and we need to focus elsewhere

also

╭∩╮（︶︿︶）╭∩╮

You're still on ofhrz, which is still bad and one of the main reasons I scumread you

Who else do you think is scum

Have you read my posts? srs quessun

Have you read my posts? srs quessun

Yeah, but there's a lot of shit and I don't remember you saying who you scumread recently and an iso glance suggests that I'm right.

Who do you scumread that's not ofhrz

OK if you've read my recent posts I'm not sure why you'd bother asking me that question. If anyone probably you rn tbh

and it's shit and you can do better and you can also do better than your last one

You can do better than voting town

I don't think town avoids finding scum like you've been doing

I'm voting my strongest scumread ATM and have been putting about as much energy into this game as I can muster d1. I feel like I've been pretty open about how turned off this game I am and frankly who the fuck are you to BoP or criticise my playstyle?

VOTE: jjh927 flips red

Is that an ATE OMGUS combo

... oh now I understand why nsg was SvS-reading this (assuming she knew no daytalk)

[ruru]

tw how do you read pin

[ruru]

@A50 -- did scum have PT access before daystart?

*Cough cough cough* Come again?

Yes, the scum team had a their PT open in the pregame.

Also, as someone pointed out, the scum team does not have daytalk in this game:

I think this answers 1677

Oh wow I can't read

[ruru]

ofrhz, thoughts on HA?

[ruru]

Honestly I think he's like complaining about bayesian trust tells in the pt levels of likely to be town

I still have reservations about voting for him because he and jjh were on the same dead wagon for most of D1

Remember the eod1 vc in 1859?

[ruru]

Were you talking about math or HitAlt in your first sentence? I assumed you were talking about HitAlt when I responded in 1707

I was talking about md being town to zoro

I remember you and pin were both offwagon there. But you guys weren’t voting for the same wagon for like 80% of D1, you know?

Hmm so is your idea that they would be doing something else because the wagon doesn't have enough interest?

I feel like there was plenty of interest and tw plausibly could have been lynched (and it would look less scummy than, say, opportunistically jumping on the town.you wagon)

Like what else would they be doing other than bussing jjh who they probably are reluctant to bus at a convincingly early time due to lack of daychat + him being framer

I feel like it's beneficial for scum to play that way if tw is town, and if that's true, then it's basically "too scummy to be scum"

[ruru]

"a PR didn't die last night and i'm not shit at NKs" is not a trust tell, it's burden of proficiency

Yeah I actually wouldn't be complaining about this to the mod

I

would

be complaining in the pt though because I'm thinking it clears you probably even moreso than that one

[ruru]

Nono I wasn't implying that at all

Him not really accepting it does make him a bit less town to me I guess

But I was actually just saying md is super likely to be town

[ruru]

I remember you and pin were both offwagon there. But you guys weren’t voting for the same wagon for like 80% of D1, you know?

Hmm so is your idea that they would be doing something else because the wagon doesn't have enough interest?

I feel like there was plenty of interest and tw plausibly could have been lynched (and it would look less scummy than, say, opportunistically jumping on the town.you wagon)

Like what else would they be doing other than bussing jjh who they probably are reluctant to bus at a convincingly early time due to lack of daychat + him being framer

I feel like it's beneficial for scum to play that way if tw is town, and if that's true, then it's basically "too scummy to be scum"

I’m going entirely off of memory here but

I think interest in tw lynch was generated by HitAlt. So if both HitAlt and jjh were scum, I feel like jjh would have waited until there was express interest from others in lynching tw before hopping onto the wagon.

Hmm, I just checked and yeah, but what about that makes HA less likely to be scum though rather than jjh making a decision you find weird

Wouldn't it also be weird by that logic if HA is town

The "strong" cases / likely lynches at the time were like

ofrhz
jjh
tw

right?

jjh has to pick one, maybe he felt like HA's case on tw is objectively best regardless of HA's alignment

[ruru]

I mean the real question that your logic leads to is why didn't jjh try to lynch you honestly

[ruru]

VOTE: pinturicchio

[ruru]

To summarize, I think davesaz tries to avoid annoying people as scum

[ruru]

Have you had your coffee yet duckling? I don’t think anyone’s scumreading me

Or if they are, they’re being awfully subtle about it

Umm

I don't trust you in this game but I actually townread this post a lot more strongly than anything previous considering I just asked why confirmed scum didn't lynch you

[ruru]

tw how do you read pin

[ruru]

I think pin's pretty likely to be to scum here half based on general behavior and half based on that one post

I also think he's in general a better player than his posting suggests and I know he acts like badtown as scum because people read it as him just being tinfoily

But as scum.him once said, he's eccentric, not stupid

Could lynch HA, not really interested in dave

[ruru]

Can we avoid stupid o' clock by just lynching the vt claim because I don't see how tw claiming here is beneficial

[ruru]

VOTE: HitAlt

[ruru]

Wait I thought nsg had like a million tells on pin and 1859 was an outlier

[ruru]

hmm

[ruru]

Yeah it's definitely an extremely weird nk from pin then

He likes to shoot for PRs too (you were actually shot in 1859 in part because he thought you were a PR)

[ruru]

Not Voting: HeWhoSwims, HitAlt, Zoronos, davesaz, BlackStar,

Tfw I can't policy lynch 5 people

[ruru]

If I'm the only one legitimately scumreading you then why are you arguing with the others

[ruru]

I don't get your question. Do you mean I should be discussing with you? I'm not discussing with anyone at this moment, so I would gladly talk to you.

I meant like, if you think my case is good/towny, but it's wrong, wouldn't you be most interested in convincing me out of it (compared to the others)

I realized after writing it that it's kind of an unfair/confbiasy question and arguing with people other than me can also influence my opinion or expose scum motivation in their reads

[ruru]

Who do you actually suspect atm pin

Because you're saying people pushing you have an agenda, and ofrhz was pushing you since d1 I think?

[ruru]

This game's awful

[ruru]

I am not seeing it

Spoiler:

incorrect and we need to focus elsewhere

This is a weird way to talk to someone you're scumreading, and could be an attempt to communicate without daytalk

You're still on ofhrz, which is still bad and one of the main reasons I scumread you

and it's shit and you can do better and you can also do better than your last one

These are hard for me to describe but I just remember writing SvS posts and feeling that they were awkward in the same way

I don't think town avoids finding scum like you've been doing

This is a major inconsistency with jjh's defense of you if you're town

He could just be being inconsistent for no reason, but it could also be tmi

[ruru]

Personally jjh is more SvS-feeling than tw to me there, so there's no way of knowing whether or not it's jjh messing with associatives

[ruru]

Is zoro still locktown

[ruru]

Hmm

Zoro you mentioned playing on another site right?

Do you mind linking a scumgame from there

[ruru]

HWS should start jailkeeping on the following conditions:
- the cop gets outed (then jail tonight, cop doesn't act)

Is this better than "cop and jk each flip a coin"?

- a PR dies
In the case that hws should start jailing, he should announce his target in the case that there's a red flip

Are you talking about tomorrow or about a quickhammer

[ruru]

Also isn't vig +EV tonight if we lynch town and jk doesn't need to act