Titling Discussion

[Gamma Emerald]

Generally there’s an idea to start on a successful title nom attempt
The discussion naturally happens from there

[Silverclaw]

If every nominaton was perfect we'd have like... half a dozen titles and this thread would subsequently not exist.

[Psyche]

If every nominaton was perfect we'd have like... half a dozen titles and this thread would subsequently not exist.

Like, this seems to misrepresent/strawman the position. No one in this discussion has asserted that only perfect nominations should be approved.

[Pink Ball]

Why is it a shit argument?

Perfection is the enemy of progress

P-edit: no, but there's a point that asking for a better title becomes a little too much

[D3f3nd3r]

(Especially when the person it’s coming from has been crying foul about titles coming from conscious efforts to think of titles for the last several months now.)

[Jake The Wolfie]

I don't believe that any of you are capable of creating the perfect title for any given user. In fact, I don't believe that the perfect title for a user is even hypothetically possible, as it's impossible to condense an entire person into 10 words or less without losing any part of the person.

[Pink Ball]

You're wasting your time with me, Psyche. You know I agree with you. Posting in a grandiloquent way doesn't mean I didn't mean what I say or discussing in bad faith.

No one is dismissing reservations about noms, but seems like reservations about noms weigh much more than a considerable amount of approval. That's when it feels like "we can do better" is just a waste of time.

[Jake The Wolfie]

The argument that a title shouldn’t be considered because it’s not good enough is a poor reason to shut down a title.

I don't believe this is true. If a title is bad (such as inadequately describing the person), then that is a good argument to make against the title.
If a title is good (such as stellarly describing the person), then that is a poor argument to make against the title.

It seems to me like the argument can either be good or bad based on extrinsic circumstances. The argument itself is not intrinsically bad.

[Jingle]

Not really interested in arguing the semantics but I will point out that I do think the elaborated takes are more helpful

Edit: I would like to point out that this post and the post directly above it were related to a specific title (Recommended for You possibly applying well to various different scummers) and that they probably could have been left in the other thread as a result, but I also didn't realize this was a thread and I'm grateful to have it in my ego now. Thanks, mastina!

[Silverclaw]

Generally there’s an idea to start on a successful title nom attempt
The discussion naturally happens from there

This is my opinion.

You don't have to start with a good title at all, but the important part is providing an example and a clear explanation why. This allows the discussion to grow naturally.

"I think X should get a title because Y" just doesn't do the same job.

[Jingle]

^+1

"This is an event/characteristic that could maybe maybe make a good title" is a better starting point than "Man, person has been around forever and still doesn't have a title" imo.

I also feel like the latter implies that not having a title is somehow bad, which I disagree with.

[Psyche]

yeah i think the best discussions start w/ some features worth incorporating in a title
noms usually do that, so it's not been a problem
but noms aren't necessary

[Ariel]

Which titles should I nominate?

.

Which titles should I not nominate?

You probably weren't asking this and most of this section should be common sense, but it seems important anyway. You should not nominate:

• a title for yourself. You will not receive the title and other users may find it annoying that you tried this. If there are title nominations for you in consideration in the thread, be careful about giving too much feedback or input - while declining a specific title or set of titles that's currently in discussion for you is perfectly fine, going too far beyond that may cause users to become uncomfortable with the current proceedings.

Ok, so this is currently a rule. I think it tries to prevent people from dominating conversations about their own title and also the title thread devolving into people mostly posting "can I have a title?" I think it also tries to help titles function as gifts from the community. I do think that it is a rule that people interpret quite differently where the line is with it.

I was kinda wondering if it might make more sense to just have a thread that is a quarantine for people asking for titles or commenting in depth on titles they were nominated for. As things stand, you can theoretically have private conversations (or even a conversation in site chat) and kinda circumvent this. So, I was just wondering if this is a potential compromise that makes the social norms surrounding discussing potential titles for yourself less confusing/more equitable.

[Jingle]

I could get behind having a thread similar to gtkas ins where you can express interest in getting a title.

I also think there is value in the ms culture of titles coming primarily from other users though.

[esuriospiritus]

The rules used to be a lot more strict, but they've loosened up a bit over the years and I don't see a problem with the way things are currently handled. So I'm mildly opposed on that basis, and on the basis that it probably feels

real

fucking bad to ask for a title and find out you hadn't yet made an impression on anyone enough for them to come up with one for you. "Make more MS friends?" is pretty obvious advice for getting titled from my perspective, but I also can still remember being new here and feeling like everyone already

had

their cliques and that I couldn't reasonably be expected to be invited in to any of them. If you can't

ask

for a title, at least there's, like, plausible deniability that maybe someone is thinking of a title for you but just hasn't landed on a good one yet...?

In short, my main concern is that making a thread that permitted folks to ask for titles would be setting them up for disappointment and hurt if they don't get one. That said, I'd be curious to hear from newer and/or untitled folks because they're the ones that are going to have more stake in such a change. Maybe making this change but, I don't know, requiring people be here and active for at least a year before requesting a title? could help eliminate the above hypothetical.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Mastina used to have titling events, where members could suggest titles for themselves and then people would vote on them.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Mastina used to have titling events, where members could suggest titles for themselves and then people would vote on them.

Unfortunately, due to the coronavirus COVID-19 global pandemic, these have since ceased and will continue to cease until Mastina is either replaced or until the coronavirus COVID-19 global pandemic ends.

[Gamma Emerald]

Which titles should I nominate?

.

Which titles should I not nominate?

You probably weren't asking this and most of this section should be common sense, but it seems important anyway. You should not nominate:

• a title for yourself. You will not receive the title and other users may find it annoying that you tried this. If there are title nominations for you in consideration in the thread, be careful about giving too much feedback or input - while declining a specific title or set of titles that's currently in discussion for you is perfectly fine, going too far beyond that may cause users to become uncomfortable with the current proceedings.

Ok, so this is currently a rule. I think it tries to prevent people from dominating conversations about their own title and also the title thread devolving into people mostly posting "can I have a title?" I think it also tries to help titles function as gifts from the community. I do think that it is a rule that people interpret quite differently where the line is with it.

I was kinda wondering if it might make more sense to just have a thread that is a quarantine for people asking for titles or commenting in depth on titles they were nominated for. As things stand, you can theoretically have private conversations (or even a conversation in site chat) and kinda circumvent this. So, I was just wondering if this is a potential compromise that makes the social norms surrounding discussing potential titles for yourself less confusing/more equitable.

there was talks of titling me at one point, and there was some good ideas going around but my general feeling was that a good number of suggestions were kinda implying I was a paragon of virtue when I'm not really, I just try to be a good person. I believe I held my tongue earlier but given the current state of things I feel like speaking up isn't of much impact to any active titling action, which is what I was concerned about before.

[Infinity 324]

The rules used to be a lot more strict, but they've loosened up a bit over the years and I don't see a problem with the way things are currently handled. So I'm mildly opposed on that basis, and on the basis that it probably feels

real

fucking bad to ask for a title and find out you hadn't yet made an impression on anyone enough for them to come up with one for you. "Make more MS friends?" is pretty obvious advice for getting titled from my perspective, but I also can still remember being new here and feeling like everyone already

had

their cliques and that I couldn't reasonably be expected to be invited in to any of them. If you can't

ask

for a title, at least there's, like, plausible deniability that maybe someone is thinking of a title for you but just hasn't landed on a good one yet...?

In short, my main concern is that making a thread that permitted folks to ask for titles would be setting them up for disappointment and hurt if they don't get one. That said, I'd be curious to hear from newer and/or untitled folks because they're the ones that are going to have more stake in such a change. Maybe making this change but, I don't know, requiring people be here and active for at least a year before requesting a title? could help eliminate the above hypothetical.

i agree with this. i think that the default should be to assume that people would be happy with a title and they can decline if they'd like.

it's possible there could be a use for a thread for people commenting on titles for themselves, though it would be pretty awkward to use.

-ace+sonya+simon

[Ariel]

I wasn't really imagining that that type of discussion thread would be anywhere near formal enough to function as a queue, and I definitely didn't consider the perspective that people would be more disappointed by vocalizing that they would like to someday have a title and no one being able to come up with one at the time. (I would actually argue making these discussions more transparent makes titling less cliquey overall, even if it might make cliquey behavior more overt.) I've just noticed that people have always tended to disagree about where the line is on contributing to discussion about you yourself having a title in the title subforum. I do think that the rule as it stands is quite likely to make people feel like they are being treated unfairly if it appears to only be applied selectively. So I think if you have this type of space, a decent amount of posts in it would be shitposty and vaguely annoying - which is why we have the current rule. But I do figure that it would occasionally inspire a meaningful enough conversation to be worth discussing in the thread where we nominate titles, while also preventing low content discussions from dominating the nomination thread.

I guess it also just seems a little silly to me that it is more socially acceptable to say things like "I really wish I could have a title someday" or "wow I'm really flattered you nominated me for a title but I'm not sure about XYZ" basically anywhere BESIDES the forum for discussing titles. I mean places like site chat, GTKAS, GD, the site discord, and direct messages. Granted, you can make a similar argument about the Scummies, though I personally think of titles as distinct from awards. Basically, I think letting these things be discussed in the title subforum makes things more transparent and will cut down on the amount of petty arguments about what's allowed.

[Ircher]

Alternatively, maybe it should be the case that you cannot ask for a title anywhere.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Alternatively, maybe it should be the case that you cannot ask for a title anywhere.

Just impossible to enforce, was I think Ariel's point. With the advent of discord etc.

My position is that people should be... A little less uptight about all of this. Titles are a celebration of community members, not a rite of passage.

This is why I have, twice, asked for my title to be changed. My title no longer fit me, it was no longer a celebration of who I am and more a reminder of who I was.

A title should not be an anchor, or a sash one wears to prove they have been here long enough and "earned" it.

I think the system as it is, is fine. We don't have inundation of people trying to get titles and if someone does go "hey I'd like a title that fits me on this party game website" it probably means they want to stay and be a part of this community.

In essence... Just let things go as they go. Let people enjoy things. Celebrate each other.

[mastina]

Unfortunately, due to the coronavirus COVID-19 global pandemic, these have since ceased and will continue to cease until Mastina is either replaced or until the coronavirus COVID-19 global pandemic ends.

Actually, I'm trying to figure out how to make an event work around my schedule. I'm terrible at planning and also a horrible procrastinator, but I am in fact trying to figure out, what the event would be, how it would be run, etc.

I haven't really figured it out yet to be honest, I don't really have an idea on what would be best, what would work, etc. But it's something I have in mind. Just, well. Just, not knowing how to bring it back, yet.

It'll happen as soon as I figure out how to make it happen. It's just that I can't give an estimate.

I've just noticed that people have always tended to disagree about where the line is on contributing to discussion about you yourself having a title in the title subforum. I do think that the rule as it stands is quite likely to make people feel like they are being treated unfairly if it appears to only be applied selectively.

This is fair.

When it comes to enforcing the rules, there are two approaches you can take--
You can EITHER: enforce the rules strictly so that they are applicable to everyone and thus everyone feels like they are being treated equally since the rules are being consistently enforced,
OR: use personal, subjective, judgement of when the rules being enforced would itself be unfair. No rule is 100% foolproof as being applicable to literally every situation. So if you enforce it strictly in spite of situations where the rule is frankly ridiculous to enforce, then it can lead to people feeling discouraged, disgruntled, angry, and justifiably ranting about how ridiculous the rule was to enforce.

You cannot have both, and both have their own advantages/disadvantages. Regardless of which route you take, there will always be some people who feel dissatisfied and unhappy with the choice.

I tend to prefer the latter, of more subjective judgement calls. This is both because I feel like the title fairy position has

always

had title fairies apply fairly arbitrary judgements to at least some extent (where the title fairy uses their own judgement every step of the way, guided by their rules, but always having the final word on things), and because of personal preference of rules being more guidelines than actual rules.

However, I am open to many things.

Stricter more consistent enforcement of rules;
Revising the existing rules;
Making very big changes e.g. new threads;
Revisiting past calls of mine;
Shifting the calls that I make already.

As a way of explaining this: I can and have changed my mind on calls I've made before. I have said "I don't like this title" and then been swayed; I've said "I like this title" and then been convinced it wasn't a good fit. This is not specific to approving/denying titles and it can apply to other things, such as what to be more strict on and what to be more lenient on, up to and including discussing any treatment you believe is unfair to an individual, feelings of being discriminated against, etc.

After all: I am only human; I can and will make calls that can be incorrect to make. I can have my biases, I can have my mistaken beliefs, and I can have the wrong read on a situation where something I thought was bad was actually fine, or something I didn't notice was bad slips by.

While I do have final authority at the end of the day, I am always looking for feedback, for thoughts, etc.

I guess it also just seems a little silly to me that it is more socially acceptable to say things like "I really wish I could have a title someday" or "wow I'm really flattered you nominated me for a title but I'm not sure about XYZ" basically anywhere BESIDES the forum for discussing titles.

I mean: you shouldn't be doing it outside the title forum, either, but I'm not omniscient nor am I omnipotent. I don't know about the "I really wish I could have a title someday" or "wow I'm really flattered you nominated me for a title but I'm not sure about XYZ" said outside of the forum (I rely on people reporting it to me in order to "punish" it, so to speak; no reports of it happening, no way for me to really know it did)--and even if I did? I don't have any authority over those statements because they were not said in this forum and my power is limited to this forum.

[Silverclaw]

Hmm so my two cents on this are basically that "Can I have a title please?" is pointless pandering that serves only as an ego boost and I genuinely don't like it at all.

That said, if I was to say what versions of that feel acceptable, it would be something like the post LLD did, where old titles no longer fit and replacement titles would be appreciated. Or even "I'd like to see about a title, and these are some things that could be great points to start with". Not everyone is well known, but if you have some accomplishments that stand out or a general personality trait/quirk that is stand out that you enjoy, then by all means I don't care. If you want a title you should be willing to give some pointers as to why or about what.

Frankly that's also just good ettiquete.

[Jingle]

My two cents is that if someone approached me personally with something along the lines of “ I want a title” I’d just ignore them.

If you’re looking for a relatively low effort event, mastina, you could do something like a popcorn title thread. Suggest a title for the previous poster or something.