Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Shoshin]

Hello Invis. I'm town again, you?

[Shoshin]

I don't care if Bernie's a bad politician, I care whether he's town.

VOTE: Math

[Shoshin]

I'm about as serious as I could be at this point, Invis. Voting on policy for behaviors outside this game seems like the most pro-scum thing so far, plus I wanted to start building a wagon since everyone was splitting the votes.

[Shoshin]

Hey Skitter, why are you defending Math? Do you think he's town for that opening?

[Shoshin]

Hey Skitter, why are you defending Math? Do you think he's town for that opening?

he's saying its NAI because it was just memeing

I know what he's saying. I'm asking why he's saying it.

[Shoshin]

Math's proposal obviously wasn't "serious," it's RVS, but that doesn't change the fact that his suggestion was pro-scum and that made it a decent place to vote to get discussion going.

I'm not sure what to make of Skitter's response. I find it a bit scummy that he'd jump on the obvious while refusing to admit that his comment defended Math. And his hostility towards my desire to build a wagon instead of splitting votes is odd.

[Shoshin]

Oh shit, sorry Skitter, didn't see you were a she. Apologies.

[Shoshin]

I always dive in this soon, and often catch scum in the first couple pages and everything. No reason to delay hunting.

[Shoshin]

The point is Shoshin was mislynched for being bad at town

I strongly disagree with this. It wasn't my best game but I wasn't mislynched because I was bad, I was mislynched because a townie who believed I was town investigated me guilty and there wasn't anything I could do to convince players who thought I my behaviors were town to ignore the result. If Mumble had claimed jailkeeper, that game could have gone very differently.

[Shoshin]

Keyser's probably town.

[Shoshin]

wait weren't you VT that game?
i think that losing a VT is better than losing a Jailkeeper

If Mumble had claimed, it would have explained the guilty result away. Then maybe I wouldn't have been mislynched. And I was voting Havo (scum) at that point in the game, so who knows? It could have been a very different game if not for Mumble trying to be a lone hero.

[Shoshin]

Invis is probably town, too.

[Shoshin]

I'm not sure what to make of Math's attempt to discredit my play when he's never even interacted with me before. Anyone play with him before and know what he's like as town/scum?

[Shoshin]

I'm not sure what to make of Math's attempt to discredit my play when he's never even interacted with me before. Anyone play with him before and know what he's like as town/scum?

Sho: "*Votes Dino*, I can catch scum in the first couple pages"
Me: "Your town meta disagrees, here's another one for the ages"

One game isn't a meta. Everyone has bad games, and that includes you, me, and anyone else who plays mafia.

[Shoshin]

Which is why I don't claim I often catch scum this early
You may be good at town but youre bragging prematurely

I wasn't saying I caught scum in you, nor was I bragging about my play in this game or Tropical. I was responding to Keyser's confusion that I'd start hunting so soon by explaining why I do it.

[Shoshin]

Cuz what I see is active lurking already happening.

That's how Invis plays.

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin, does Invis have the same play as mafia as well?

There's similarities and differences.

[Shoshin]

I signed up for this game because of Irrelephant so I'm looking forward to that too. I hope he's town.

[Shoshin]

Momrangal, any thoughts on players other than Invis?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, what do you think of Nauci?

I got nothing yet. You?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Stungun

[Shoshin]

VOTE: momrangal

That's a decent vote, but you should join me on Stun!

[Shoshin]

Serious vote though, VOTE: Gamma Emerald for 100% 4/4 fluff posting

Too easy. What don't you like about Math? And what're your thoughts on Stun?

[Shoshin]

Help us nab a scumbag?

[Shoshin]

I'm not quite ready to say why you should vote Stun but you should. Irrelephant has the idea.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, any thoughts on Stun's 109?

[Shoshin]

I don’t like the transition here at all; shoshin goes from obsessing over skitter’s townread of mathdino to later asking what there isn’t to like about mathdino’s play; it seems like a very strange transition to make in a matter of hours with no explicit townread or townle on mathdino for the slot, so this makes its way onto my scumdar. These questions seem like their fishing for scummy responses to take advantage of

Skitter didn't townread Math. And I didn't really "obsess" over anything. So that's a pretty strange way to read the game.

I asked Skitter some questions and then I asked Naucy some questions. What's the "strange transition"?

[Shoshin]

Stun's kinda overreacting and his "scumhunting" in 114 is pretty superficial. Looks like Stun didn't like that I scumread him, decided to scumread me, and then read my posts trying to make a scumread work. Doesn't seem like Stun's actually given my alignment (or Skitter's) much thought, yet somehow comes out townreading Keyser based on Keyser's analysis of my interaction with Skitter? Thoughts?

[Shoshin]

I didn't like Stun initially because his town felt really awkward in his opening posts, and after skimming his town games, I felt something was off. His play since has a better tone but that's probably because he's upset about getting voted, so I dunno how to read that. I'm curious what others think.

[Shoshin]

The shame is it's too soon for the best wagon we could actually do

What's that?

[Shoshin]

Hmm, I like that Stun came around on me. Not sure he'd do that as scum.

[Shoshin]

Hot take: Keyser hasn’t done anything towny yet

I'm rethinking that read.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Nauci

[Shoshin]

Stun, can you explain your transition from suspecting me to a townlean to hardtown?

[Shoshin]

Math, why are you townreading Stun?

[Shoshin]

Those posts are pretty easy to fake so I dunno about that. There's something else Stun said recently that feels townish that I thought maybe you were picking up on but I guess not.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin what are you asking these questions for? They seem a little scatter-shotted.

What are you confused about? What's random about them?

[Shoshin]

I don’t see the direction you’re heading with hem.

I don't know what you mean by "direction." The questions were "directed" at Stun and Math, I'm trying to sort their alignments, and I think the answers to my questions will help me do that. I still don't get what confuses you about "direction" when the questions were about very specific things that Stun and Math have done.

[Shoshin]

My townread ain't recent, it's not a crime to be a trendsetter
I was good by page 8, so I'd like to spend my time better
Than reading some posts when this game has tougher reads
Speaking of which, what's your take on Gamma's deeds?

He hasn't done anything to give me much of a read yet. I was thinking to sort him through poe since he's lurking and I'm starting to get quite a few townreads.

[Shoshin]

skittz, Nauci, NSG and Ran are all avoiding

Who is Ran?

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant's probably town.

[Shoshin]

Invis is town, Keyser. You should take a look at some of his games to ease your paranoia.

[Shoshin]

Even if you don't like the way Invis posts, 158, 168, and 169 should clear him. I highly doubt he'd make either of these as scum.

[Shoshin]

Math's town, yes. Who are your bottom three?

[Shoshin]

Hey Irrelephant, why town on Bernie?

[Shoshin]

Bernie, what's your main?

[Shoshin]

I think 176 was my fav?

What'd you like about that? There's a lot of nothingness in his posts but I'm open to sheeping you if you're seeing something I'm not. I'd really like to meta him at some point because I'm worried he's one of those players who knows how to sound pretty town without actually saying or doing anything meaningful.

[Shoshin]

I like to lynch scum on D1 and anything less feels like a failure to me.

Bernie's tough to read. Lots of nothingness but there's a hint of town in the way he helped me pressure Stun but then switched onto Invis because he couldn't maintain the farce. Even if Bernie's really strong as scum, I'm not sure he'd express that sentiment while switching his vote onto obvious lynchbait. So probably not lynching Bernie today.

I'm varying degrees of town on Math, Invis, Key, Mom, and Irrelephant. Stun's a weaker read but for the moment happy to put aside. So I'm thinking we need to sort out Gamma, NSG, Skitter, Nauci, and the worst.

[Shoshin]

as a side note I also think d1 is the "play not-to-lose" Day where as long as you don't do something very stupid like run up everyones claims, do get a ton of commitment/stances down from everyone on everything, and lynch a mixture of the scummiest of the low/moderate-value/ lowest value of the scummiest you have a decent start and are well set up

Funny, I was thinking maybe we should get everyone's claim today to give the scum a fighting chance.

[Shoshin]

Even if you don't like the way Invis posts, 158, 168, and 169 should clear him. I highly doubt he'd make either of these as scum.

why exactly for the record?
I'm only saying this because it reminds me of when I townread lovebird one time for somewhat comparable townread/paranoia/elsewhere progression (except it was harder; my thought was why bother faking that strange progression?)

Yes, that's part of it. Also:

158 shows a very clear and natural thought process for town to have - "oh, Sho is town but I disagree with her because it looks like it's more of a misunderstanding" - but it's also a thought process that's pretty foreign to scum and not easy to fake. Scum usually express agreement with someone when townreading them, or disagreement when scumreading. But disagreement coupled with townreading in a situation where that's a perfectly natural thought process is pretty difficult to fake.

168 shows some natural second-guessing that town tend to have in these types of situations.

169 reflects some of the thoughts I was having about Gemini at the time and that I'm sure a lot of town would have when figuring out who to vote. I think scum would have jumped onto someone that was already being voted at this point instead of pursuing something new.

[Shoshin]

initial ping was his treatment of Shoshin thru rvs/early game. also got the feeling he's avoiding town hunting and leaving avenues open for later. haven't really seen anything in there that screams town to me so far.

Talking about Key? I get why thinking about the game in terms of what's possible instead of what's probable feels scummy, but coupled with Key's genuinely inquisitive tone it actually feels pretty town to me. I also thought he was genuinely confused by my early play in a way that scum wouldn't openly admit, and I also get the sense that Key was genuinely excited about getting into the scumhunting part of the game so quickly.

[Shoshin]

I am very happy I am not being mass town read (so kinda liking Irrelephant11’s against-the-grind suspicion).

Also, this feels town. Yes, scum fake this sort of thing. But Key? Unlikely.

[Shoshin]

No.

[Shoshin]

Math's town, and there's not really much of an argument to be made otherwise.

[Shoshin]

Bernie, why do you think Nauci is town?

[Shoshin]

Skitter, the gimmick isn't alignment indicative nor is Math's desire to keep it up in the face of some minor opposition. I'm having trouble understanding what you think about the game in the big picture. Who are your top 3 scum and town?

[Shoshin]

Math's post where he agreed with my townread on Key was very townie in light of our interactions up to that point, particularly the "hate to admit" language. That emotion, "fuck, I can't believe I agree with this guy whose play I've just spent a few posts attacking," is pretty hard to fake and suggests that Math's read was genuine, not the result of an informed perspective. And his townread on Stun followed pretty naturally from the townread on Key. There's other things but those two are more than enough to townread Math.

[Shoshin]

Math, thoughts on Skitter?

[Shoshin]

Who are the "obv as town" players?

[Shoshin]

Mom, none of the things you're pushing are AI for Invis. Why are you ignoring his meta?

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin - now’s the time to share that irrefutable meta evidence for town-invisibility.

His meta shows why none of the things people think are scummy are scummy for him. I suggest skimming his play in literally any game he's ever played.

[Shoshin]

momrangel actually came back with a bang.

What's the bang? 39 isn't even "try hard," so Mom's interpretation is a bit of a stretch. She's right that Invis has a seemingly-helpful-but-not-doing-much style but that's just how he plays.

[Shoshin]

I had Mom as town for similar reasons to Irrelephant, as well as her answer to my question in 163. Her play was also consistent with her town meta so nothing to worry about.

[Shoshin]

Mom's tunnel on Invis is pretty bad, though. So I don't have a problem with the votes on her, happy to see how that plays out for the moment.

[Shoshin]

Key, what're your reads at this point?

[Shoshin]

Key, talk to me about Skitter.

[Shoshin]

And no I'm not about to metadive. I don't want to keep hearing "this is how he plays so we should just clear him"

I didn't say you should "clear" Invis because of meta, I said you shouldn't scumread him for things that aren't scummy for him to do. How would you feel if someone called you scummy because of things that you do in every game as town? You'd think that person was scumreading you for things that aren't scummy, right? Apply that same logic to Invis.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, what do you think of Skitter?

[Shoshin]

I don't know you but your games on the site are publicly viewable.

[Shoshin]

Alright, cool. So Nauci, Skitter, and the worst as scum? I think that makes the most sense at this point.

[Shoshin]

I don't see the harm in speculating about the scumteam on D1. As I said before, I intend to lynch scum on D1 and part of doing that includes analyzing potential teams as corroborative evidence.

Re: the worst - it's partly poe, partly Gemini replacing out, and partly the worst's posts having a scum agenda and feeling fake - the "mind meld" with Gemini especially felt fake, the townlean on Skitter and null on Nauci makes lots of sense as partner interactions given my other reads, the strong townread on Bernie didn't really make sense and feels like the worst is trying to emulate his town meta of having at least someone he reads as strong town, and then lots of overall weak nothing reads everywhere else. I think someone said that Key was scummy for leaving avenues open but that's actually what I see the worst doing, especially about the easily lynchable players (e.g. Mom, Gamma, Invis).

[Shoshin]

nsg’s a legit possibility too.

She's a possibility that I'll worry about when she starts posting more. If she doesn't post more and one of my other suspects flips town, then yeah, lynch her.

[Shoshin]

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

[Shoshin]

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

this is

just

like a list of most of the people that are generally percieved to be sketchy

What do you mean by "just"? I think most of my townreads agree with me, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you?

[Shoshin]

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

this is

just

like a list of most of the people that are generally percieved to be sketchy

What do you mean by "just"? I think most of my townreads agree with me, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you?

i don't know what your townreads have to do with this. it's a list of consensus-scummy players. it's very safe.

You think my reads are "safe"? That's just wrong. I've clearly stuck my neck out in defending certain players who aren't perceived as town (e.g. Mom/Irrelephant), and I've given some strong townreads on players who aren't perceived as strong town (e.g. Math/Irrelephant), so why interpret my reads as "safe" instead of "maybe there's something to this because all the likely townies are coming to a consensus"?

[Shoshin]

Nah, if scum isn't Nauci/Skitter/the worst, it's probably between Gamma/NSG.

this is

just

like a list of most of the people that are generally percieved to be sketchy

What do you mean by "just"? I think most of my townreads agree with me, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Do you?

i don't know what your townreads have to do with this. it's a list of consensus-scummy players. it's very safe.

You think my reads are "safe"? That's just wrong. I've clearly stuck my neck out in defending certain players who aren't perceived as town (e.g. Mom/

Invis

), and I've given some strong townreads on players who aren't perceived as strong town (e.g. Math/Irrelephant), so why interpret my reads as "safe" instead of "maybe there's something to this because all the likely townies are coming to a consensus"?

Fixing a mistake.

[Shoshin]

Skitter, why is 501 suddenly "safe" but my reads in 269 (which mostly said the same thing with less nuance) went without comment?

[Shoshin]

What'd you think when you saw my reads in 269, Skitter?

[Shoshin]

Skitter's scumread on Math is pretty fucking bad, and given her recent concern about "safe" reads, I'm thinking it's an attempt to appear "non-safe." I find it hard to believe that town Skitter lists Math as scummier than her null reads.

[Shoshin]

I didn't say NSG was scummy. I said she's scum if my scumreads flip town, because that still leaves her as null when compared my townreads, making NSG scum by poe. What's the flaw in that approach? What "pre-conceived notions" are clouding my judgment?

[Shoshin]

He says he's excited for his first game back, and I get that but his posts don't seem to be relaying that same excitement and it seems kinda mechanical

I was thinking the same thing; would have expected more from someone "excited" to be back.

[Shoshin]

pre-flips in a word. you're looking for teams and looking for evidence that backs up those teams.

This is incorrect. You must not know what the word "corroborative" means.

[Shoshin]

here too: you start off assuming he's town, check his meta, don't see anything to contradict that assumption, so you keep him as town.

are you actually successful at cold-meta-reading people? (do you often ignore questions? It's very hard getting you to answer things directed straight at you)

You basically have pre-concieved notions and you're finding evidence that fits instead of the other way around.

This is also incorrect.

I read Mom as town based on actual behaviors in this game, not based on an assumption, and I checked her meta to make sure I wasn't completely off. What that means is I read her town games and scum games and I was looking to prove myself wrong about her in this game. I was unable to do so, becaus what I found is that her play here is consitent with her play in town games and actually slightly different from her play in scum games. This is the opposite of "finding evidence that fits instead of the other way around." I started null on her, found behaviors that I liked (e.g. push on Invis and response to my question in 163), and then I checked her meta to try proving myself wrong just in case I was getting ahead of myself.

Yes, I often ignore silly questions because it's a pretty good way to see how much the player cares about a silly question. I've caught scum this way more than once.

[Shoshin]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/corroborative

Right. I'm not looking for teams. I'm looking for townies and for scumbags.

Then, I check whether the emerging picture of the game makes any sense by seeing if the three scummiest players make sense as a team. This last step is called corroboration if the team makes sense. Sometimes, the team doesn't make sense and I have to reevaluate the reads themselves.

[Shoshin]

Skitter's scumread on Math is pretty fucking bad, and given her recent concern about "safe" reads, I'm thinking it's an attempt to appear "non-safe." I find it hard to believe that town Skitter lists Math as scummier than her null reads.

In my eyes, when Mathdino turned up her tune changed to:

I didn't read it this way. What post from Skitter made you think this?

[Shoshin]

Skitter, I don't get why you're defending NSG so strongly if she's just null for you...

[Shoshin]

Skitter, I don't get why you're defending NSG so strongly if she's just null for you...

Because I dont think its AI and I think it's a bad reason to scumread her given the context.

Is this something you do as town? Defend players who you don't read as town?

[Shoshin]

if i think the scumread on them is stupid, yes, even if i'm not townreading them. if you really need me to i could pull up a bunch of examples

Examples would be appreciated, yes.

[Shoshin]

Naucis still null, idk about north
But skitter is full of town indicative sorts
Of posting, so I'll put her as just above center
Irrelephant too, my townreads' newest member

Can you direct me to the posts you find town in Skitter? Elaboration on what's town about them would help too.

[Shoshin]

Scum skitter's adaptable, I could go on and rap but she'll
Change her play, to give away a vibe that's much more fashionable

So, which posts are town indicative?

[Shoshin]

Nauci's probably scum.

[Shoshin]

Alright, I feel a bit better about Skitter after skimming those games.

[Shoshin]

Skitter, can you update me on your reads? Are you still scumreading Math?

[Shoshin]

i’m starting to like skitter more

hot take: scum is among bernie, nsg, nauci, momrangal, and the worst

will vote momrangal or nauci if no one is willing to pressure nsg with me.

could see nauci-bernie sanders association both in this game and irl (i mean, hilary and bernie, hey!) possible scum team in this game? lots of fluff content referring to one another, so add that to the association booth.

bernie sanders, you seem to have dodged my question too, which considering you’re very highly active with a lot of fluff content, I can’t see much of a town motive. care to look back?

eh, i want a clear majority on a player whose not given much substantial content (as in townreads and such), so i’m absolutely not passing up this opportunity.

VOTE: Momrangal

Momrangal is now at L-3

, so this slot could only probably fit one more vote for our purposes as of right now, but absolutely no more than that.

Nauci, can you summarize your reads/thoughts on the game?

[Shoshin]

Hmm, I don't know why this thing posted stun's posts there. I was looking at them earlier and was gonna say something about that, but then decided not to. That's annoying.

[Shoshin]

I'd like to TR Irrelephant, but thus far I am not seeing the strong performance I expected. Even while scum, Irrelephant put up a good scum hunting game in 1863. More defensive posts and less active hunting, IMO.

This sounds like a reason to townread Irrelephant, so I don't really get the scumread here.

[Shoshin]

I find it hard to believe that Nauci "wants to townread" Irrelephant yet doesn't. She observes differences between his play here and his play as scum, she says his play as scum is strong and his play here weak, but she scumread him for that? He's been pretty careless this game and a lot less calculated with his posting than he was as scum, so why would someone who wants to townread him instead scumread him? I get the feeling that Nauci's faking the scumread and she keeps saying that she wants to townread (i.e. the opposite of what she's actually doing) to hide her actual intent (i.e. faking a scumread).

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, you haven't played mafia on a different site?

[Shoshin]

Skitter's town btw, willing to bank a lot on that. I need to reread because I think I'm going wrong somewhere and need to reevaluate some things with a new perspective of Skitter as town.

[Shoshin]

I am kinda excited to play with invisibility fwiw

Why?

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, I'd like to hear your case on Key.

[Shoshin]

Stun, do you have any scum games?

[Shoshin]

I dunno about those votes on Nauci. Her recent posts aren't so bad.

I think Stun might be scum. The whole "here's my answers to the questions I'm asking" shtick feels like an attempt to get read as town more than an attempt to scumhunt. His reads feel kinda fake, especially his degree of certainty that certain players are town (e.g. Key). And his approach to the game feels too unfocused to come from town; it doesn't seem like he's ever really trying to pin down anyone's alignment with his questions or follow-up.

I dunno. There's some townie things in his posting too. I think we really need to see an example of his scum play to get a better sense of what he's capable of.

[Shoshin]

But probably should lynch the worst today.

[Shoshin]

What do you think about bernie

Town.

[Shoshin]

guess who's #1 on my list of people we aren't lynching today

Yourself, probably. Won't make much difference though.

[Shoshin]

Why?

Bernie? 133, 135, 141, 142, 173, and 174 are all pretty townie. As i said before, I especially liked the way that he joined me on Stun but then switched onto Invis becuase he couldn't keep up the farce of voting someone he didn't actually find scummy. The entirety of that sequence of posts felt very town. And following those early posts, there's been a very natural thought process and a lot of progression in his reads, as seen in 187, 266, 323, 375, 388.

[Shoshin]

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Sure it was weird, but Gemini was engaging before she ghosted. It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

I could care less about the replacement. Duck's posts feel spiritless, and as I said before, the whole "mind meld" with Gemini felt fake.

[Shoshin]

It's also poe, Mom.

[Shoshin]

uh pardon me since when do you know me well enough that you can tell what's fake from me? o.0

So you're saying I should make no attempt to read you because I don't know you?

[Shoshin]

Ill look into Bernie more tomorrow but what is he even gaining as scum by lying about it?

It makes his slot look town, or at least that's what scum might think it'd do. Though I don't think scum always have a specific intent to their lies, sometimes they're just trying to hide their alignment and they end up saying things they didn't mean to because they were too focused on not letting people know their alignment. Like, I could imagine the worst replacing into a scum slot, immediately going into denial over the fact, and sort of reacting to that by spinning a lie about how he mind melded before replacement. Then when he gets questioned about it, he's like, oh, fuck, I shouldn't have said that, there's not actually much to mind meld with.

[Shoshin]

uh pardon me since when do you know me well enough that you can tell what's fake from me? o.0

Even this way of defending himself is bullshit. I call something fake, and his response is, "you don't know me well enough to know it's fake." He's not even denying that it's fake... instead he just wants to discredit me...

[Shoshin]

Nauci, your case boils down to, "Irrelephant did X as scum, he's doing X here, therefore he's scum." It's not a very strong argument.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, thoughts on lynching Stun?

[Shoshin]

still need your thoughts on skitter town

Her progression on me is really town. I don't think scum her puts me as her strongest townread after our interaction.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, do you think Irrelephant makes this post -

do you often ignore questions? It's very hard getting you to answer things directed straight at you)

I will vouch for the fact that this is true of town Shoshin, and is part of why I'm having an easier time townreading her than most players

- as scum? Why not let Skitter's paranoia fester?

[Shoshin]

i think at that point he wasn't super interested in my opinion of him or you (this is before i called him out for his vote on me i think, or at least that became a thing and he was under suspicion), but was more concerned about what *you* thought of him. like i don't think i'm the target/audience of that post; you are.

I'd already said he was town so how do you figure that?

[Shoshin]

Hey Irrelephant, I still want your thoughts on Stun.

[Shoshin]

Like, Skitter, assume for a moment that Irrelephant's scum who knows that you're town and that I'm town. Why would he encourage you to townread me instead of sitting back and letting your paranoia fester? The last thing scum want is for two townies who suspect each other to suddenly start trusting each other and working together.

[Shoshin]

Not playing games with Invis anymore. That's a fucked up reason to replace out.

As much as I, too, am frustrated, I would like to ask that you guys keep discussion of the replace out reasons to only game related content. This isn't going to be like a "strike" or anything, but I want to stop discussion of not playing with others immediately. That is a personal choice and this is not the place to discuss that.

-Brass

[Shoshin]

I don't get why it's so hard to get a game without replacements. Still haven't had one yet on this site.

[Shoshin]

Sorry Brass, I'm just frustrated. This is happening in all my games.

[Shoshin]

Can we just modkill the three and move on?

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I agree with you that Irrelephant might be scum. But that applies to everyone in the game. Can you point me to the specific posts that make it more likely that Irrelephant's scum rather than town?

[Shoshin]

As a matter of theory, I think town tend to talk about "phrasing" more than scum (points in Irrelephant's favor) and I strongly disagree Nauci's "theory" 'that "phrasing" doesn't matter (it's actually provable that people unconsciously use different "phrasing" for the same ideas when you change their perspective (i.e. whether they're informed or uinformed about what they're saying)).

[Shoshin]

Nauci, that isn't helpful. I've already read those posts and they don't contain an answer to my question. I'd like you to tell me the specific posts that make Irrelephant more likely to be scum. You can list them out. And then tell me exactly what about those posts increases the probability that he's scum in this game without reference to his previous game as scum.

And you're welcome to look at others, but I'm working on figuring out Irrelephant right now and I'd like your help to do so.

[Shoshin]

You know what, I'll just address your points one-by-one to make this easier for you.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I started writing up a response to your analysis but I don't have time for this right now.

In short, this is the problem I have. You're telling me why it's possible that Irrelephant's scum by telling the story of scum Irrelephant deploying an elaborate scum agenda to delegitmize strong players, protect others, pocket me, etc. That's all fine.

But there's no analysis as to why your narrative is more likely than a town Irrelephant one. Why do you think he's delegitmizing rather than simply critical of what they're saying? Why is he pocketing rather than correctly defending/townreading? Why's he scum pushing a scum agenda rather than a clueless townie who believes what he's saying?

I'm open to what you're saying but I just don't see any analysis of what makes Irrelephant more likely to be scum.

[Shoshin]

Not_Mafia! Excellent. Easiest guy to read in the game. Such a simple mind. In a good way.

[Shoshin]

really? i iwish i had this skill

The trick is to not overthink it. Is he doing pro-town things? He's town. Is he doing pro-scum things? He's scum.

[Shoshin]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

[Shoshin]

I dunno about those votes on Nauci. Her recent posts aren't so bad.

But probably should lynch the worst today.

This would have been the perfect time to change your vote. Why didn’t you?

I wasn't done sorting Nauci.

[Shoshin]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Because I want your reason.

No shit. What do you think my answer will tell you about my alignment if you know I do this as town?

[Shoshin]

really? i iwish i had this skill

The trick is to not overthink it. Is he doing pro-town things? He's town. Is he doing pro-scum things? He's scum.

Incorrect. That’s how I play and everyone yells at me saying I’m a surface level player. Town doesn’t always pro-town things. Town sometimes does pro-scum things. Scum doesn’t always do pro-scum things.

I'm not talking in general. I'm talking specifically about NM.

[Shoshin]

uh pardon me since when do you know me well enough that you can tell what's fake from me? o.0

Even this way of defending himself is bullshit. I call something fake, and his response is, "you don't know me well enough to know it's fake." He's not even denying that it's fake... instead he just wants to discredit me...

I don’t even know how you reached that conclusion...

What's your confusion?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gustavo

[Shoshin]

I've played with scum Gustavo before. This is how he plays. He's straight-up misrepresenting what I'm saying.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin do you have some examples of scumgames?

There's one on this site. My scum play looks nothing like my play in this game. It's not even close.

[Shoshin]

@the worst

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76221 - me as scum
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76303 - me as town

Gustavo was in both games. He should know better than to vote me here. The way he's misrepresenting what I'm saying shows a pretty strong desire to characterize my play in the worst possible light. No way he's town here.

[Shoshin]

Skitter, you can sheep me too, you know. I know you don't have any experience with me but my reads are usually pretty good.

[Shoshin]

I especially urge you to vote Gustavo.

[Shoshin]

lol okay

[Shoshin]

the worst, what is it you wanted to check about my play?

[Shoshin]

Don't make me wait please, I don't have patience for this lol... telling me about it isn't going to change how I played in that game so you have nothing to worry about.

[Shoshin]

Hmm, maybe Gustavo actually believes what he's saying.

[Shoshin]

UNVOTE: Gustavo

I'd like input from others.

[Shoshin]

If you actually read Tropical, you'll see that I voted without any reasons (twice on Rampage on D1 and then Invis on D2) and people even gave me shit about it. But seems like I gave more reasoning in that game I remembered when voting Mumble/Havo, so whatever.

Gustavo's playing absurdly aggressive - not sure what to make of it because his play as town didn't look anything like this but neither did his play as scum.

[Shoshin]

Whoever described Gustavo as too black-and-white is dead on though - that's pretty obvious from the way he's talking about NM. Gustavo's embarasssing himself right now with all his assumptions.

[Shoshin]

If she’s scum great. If she’s town I’m fine with it.

This is such a bad way to think about the game. But I suppose there's actually players who think this way.

[Shoshin]

Interesting note - putting aside my compromise vote on Invis at the end of D2, mostly to avoid getting lynched myself, my last two votes (Gustavo/Havo) were on scum. So close to figuring that game out

[Shoshin]

But regardless. I don’t see where you outright refused to explain yourself when you asked like you did here.

I didn't refuse to explain why I voted Nauci.

[Shoshin]

But regardless. I don’t see where you outright refused to explain yourself when you asked like you did here.

I didn't refuse to explain why I voted Nauci.

You still haven’t given one despite me asking so yeah you have.

You asked why I didn't give a reason, not why I voted.

[Shoshin]

Town has to work together and if you are town you are refusing to do that.

Alright, if town has to work together, why aren't you working with me? You're the one who came out gun slinging without any attempt to understand what I'm saying or why I voted the way I did. Everything you've done from the moment you've entered this game has been needlessly aggressive towards me, and your questions aimed toward scumreading me, not towards sorting me.

[Shoshin]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Because I want your reason.

Here was me saying I want your reason.

You haven’t provided one still.

Yeah, I interpreted this as you wanting an answer to why I voted Nauci without any reason, not you wanting an answer to the question of why I voted Nauci. Maybe if you asked less aggressive, more clear questions, you'd get the answers you're looking for.

[Shoshin]

Gustavo's "non-aggressive" question: "Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?"

The question Gustavo says he wanted an answer to: "Why did you originally vote Nauci?"

I though the qualification, "with absolutley no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior" was a very aggressive way to ask the question, so aggressive in fact that I didn't even think he was asking why I voted Nauci, I thought he was asking why I voted without reasoning.

Gustavo doesn't want to talk with me anymore because he's "convinced" that I'm scum, so maybe someone can ask him why he added those qualifications to his question.

[Shoshin]

It's curious that the first thing Gustavo does when entering the thread is ignore Stun's thoughts, look at the biggest wagon, decide the wagon is on town, and thus start questioning the votes on that player. I'm trying to picture this thought process - "Ignore thoughts of someone I know is town, assume biggest wagon in the game is on town, and thus question votes on biggest wagon" - as a town one. Struggling to see it. But input from others would be appreciated because I'm biased here.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, what're your thoughts on Gustavo? Town or scum?

[Shoshin]

I wasn't really townreading Stun and I'm complely confused by Gustavo. Why the townread on Stun and why the scumlean on Gus?

[Shoshin]

I never townread Stun the same way others have but I'm unsure what to think about Gus. I'm thinking a couple things.

One, he just played as scum in Tropical and his approach in that game was to jump onto opportunistic wagons but rarely start them. His play here is different on that score. But when you compare this to his play as town in Scientific, it looks nothing like it. He never had much confidence in his reads there, asked for input from others, and didn't push anything aggressively like this.

Two, his scumhunting approach here seems to be looking for the same sort of behavior that he exhibited as scum (i.e. looking for opportunistic behaviors) and that's sort of townie on his part. , so he's looking at who jumped onto the Nauci wagon (e.g. me, Mom, etc.). The approach makes sense given the way he played as scum, but it also assumes that Nauci is town and that bugs me.

[Shoshin]

The other problem with Gus is that his confidence that I'm scum feels entirely fake in the same way it felt fake in Tropical. He was so sure in Tropical that I was scum that he "townread" Invis because I suspected him. That overconfidence was really scummy because it showed that his read was fake. Here, he's over-the-top confident that I'm scum again in a way that doesn't make much sense. And when you compare to his play as town, there's nothing close to that level of confidence.

But then again, his thought process is absurdly black-and-white and maybe that's just the way he thinks. Dismissing the value of D1 and dismissing NM's style despite others actually having success reading NM are the hallmarks of someone who is so blindingly confident in themselves that anything they don't personally understand is dismissed as incapable of being understood by others.

[Shoshin]

hmmm browsing gustavo's meta gets me back toward a townread, though

I just think he's wrong

What part of his meta makes you think town? Did you peruse his town games?

[Shoshin]

Gus, what's your read on Nauci?

[Shoshin]

I don't remember this town coming even close to having a leader

Wat

I'd say I've been one of the leaders in this game even if you haven't felt that way. Leadership isn't exclusive to one player and this town has a number of players who play as leaders - and just so you know, part of leading is knowing when to let others lead so if you're just looking for someone that others are sheeping that's not really what Mom was talking about.

[Shoshin]

Skitter, I didn't lie about anything. Gus thinks I lied because I said I voted without providing any reasoning in Tropical and he's in denial about the reality that I did in fact vote without reasoning in Tropical. I think Irrelephant cleared this up earlier.

[Shoshin]

Skitter, I didn't lie about anything. Gus thinks I lied because I said I voted without providing any reasoning in Tropical and he's in denial about the reality that I did in fact vote without reasoning in Tropical. I think Irrelephant cleared this up earlier.

ok thank you because i still wasn't sure what the lie was

i really don't think this is significant or like ai at all

Yeah, pretty much. Even if I had lied (which I didn't), it's not even scummy. Like, what's he think I'm trying to hide? But he's got one of those black-and-white mindsets that assumes any lie is scummy without any further analysis, so I don't think there's much point arguing with him about it.

[Shoshin]

I do agree that 388 is a solid post. But I feel like a large majority of them are kinda just sitting in the middle and when he does take a stance he does this weird "eh what do I know thing" like in post 375 . He also did it in 323 when pushing Dino, making it feel like he's subliminally excusing himself from taking responsibility from anything that happened. Making it easier to brush it off as oversight or some othet thing. Something I see scum do constantly, something I'm always noting (like I did in implos large game as well in a few games in my old account).

It's subtle tell that people have thought me crazy to point out but has outstanding accuracy.

I think that's a good point about the "eh what do I know" pattern. I agree that it's a strong tell (as much as I try not to, I always end up doing it as scum myself) but townies do it too and you have to read it in light of everything else. He's got strong hints of town plus a couple questionable patterns so not really who I want to lynch today unless everyone else suddenly becomes more town than him.

[Shoshin]

Gus, I'm not a he.

[Shoshin]

Gamma, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

Nauci, there's different ways of leading a town. I can tell that your understanding of the word "leader" is different from mine or Mom's.

[Shoshin]

Gamma, can you link some representative games of you as town/scum?

[Shoshin]

Where's the lie? I'm not reading all this malarkey

There's no lie. Gustavo's just delusional. He thinks I lied about what I said I did in another game even though he's been proven wrong already.

Are you going to read the game?

[Shoshin]

How much would I have to read?

Just skim enough to get some reads.

[Shoshin]

I think Mom's town, Nauci.

[Shoshin]

I'm starting to get paranoid about Math. He was pretty town earlier in the game but his absence is making it harder to hold onto that read.

[Shoshin]

@Nauci

For me, leading is about figuring out what we need to do to win as a team and doing my best to get everyone moving in that direction. It's not about saying, "hey let's lynch this person," it's about getting the right people to come together to discuss things in a way that makes it very difficult for scum to avoid getting caught and then from that point working together to figure out who the scum are. It's also about knowing when to follow others and when to push things yourself.

In terms of my play, I'd say from the start I got things moving out of RVS and have been pretty strongly trying to work with everyone to develop some sort of consensus on who the townies/scum are, more so than anyone else in this game.

[Shoshin]

I think we can safely ignore Gustavo for the moment, he's town enough to leave alive.

[Shoshin]

I'm somewhat townreading Gamma at this stage fwiw

Why?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gamma

[Shoshin]

I doubt Mom's answer to that question has any relevance to her alignment, Nauci. It's too easy a thing to fake.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Gamma

If Gamma's scum, this vote probably clears NM as town.

[Shoshin]

@Mod

can we get extensions given the number of replacements and unconventional replacement order (replace of a slot with almost nothing far more important than another)

Ideally I'd want to get another second pass at this game when I have more time but right now as is I won't return until deadline is really close

Sure, I'll give an extension. Someone request a specific amount of time to extend the day 1 deadline and we'll work from there. I'm being lazy so acting like I want a plaintiff to make a demand.

How about 2 days after we get NSG replaced? Or something like that.

[Shoshin]

I dont think that's a clearing vote actually.

Maybe I'll read the past three pages at some point.

So many options of who to vote and he chooses Gamma? I dunno. If Gamma's town, it's pretty meaningless, but if he's scum, it's a pretty strong indication that NM's town. If he were scum, he could have hung around without placing a vote. He could have waited to quickhammer Gamma and try to fake a town-tell. But putting him at L-2 where he's unlikely to get much town cred is precisely the point where scum NM doesn't vote for scum.

[Shoshin]

Mom, what's your current read on Gamma?

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I'm guessing you don't have experience with NM but trust me when I say that pressuring him for more content is an exercise in futility. I understand that you don't want me answering for others but that's not what I'm doing; what I did is offer a read on NM based on the available information and then briefly discuss that read with Skitter.

[Shoshin]

Nauci, I'm not discouraging you or anyone else from asking questions. But when someone asks a question that doesn't seem to have much scumhunting direction, it sparks my interest and sometimes that leads to a comment. What were you hoping to gain by knowing how Mom defines "leader"? How is her answer helping you sort her?

As for NM, I've been successful at reading NM in the past on the basis of a few posts, and in reviewing his games I've found him fairly easy to distinguish as town/scum. I also don't think it's fair to encourage NM to change how he plays when there's nothing wrong with his approach to the game.

Here's some mafia theory for you: There's pros and cons to NM's style. One of the pros is that by giving us so little information to work with, every piece of information tells us a lot about what NM finds imoprtant enough to comment on. And that makes him very readable as both alignments if you know how to think through his votes/commentary. But it also means you have to put in the work to read the meaning in each of his posts and that's what I was doing.

[Shoshin]

EP, what's your position on Gamma and why?

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, I don't townread Errant at all from his opening posts. Why are you?

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, I didn't think that post was that townie, it felt like the sort of thing scum who knows you're town would read it. I didn't like EP's post, felt scummy to me.

[Shoshin]

Hey the worst, any thoughts on Errant?

[Shoshin]

36 seems to be asking whether I ever open games as scum by bussing teammates.

Irrelephant is right that Key's question implies that I could be scum here even if I lynch scum on D1.

[Shoshin]

Key, what're your current reads?

[Shoshin]

this post is gross and fence-sitty. 'gamma is not town, and makes sense as scum but at the same time something doesn't feel right' - like what does this even mean?

Hmm, good point on Mom.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Bernie Sanders

Why not Mom?

[Shoshin]

I actually have a feeling

VOTE: bernie sanders

I thought you scumread Key? Why would you follow him onto Bernie?

[Shoshin]

I don't like being scum.

[Shoshin]

I know you don't have enough meta to read me but I never play scum even close to the way I'm playing here.

[Shoshin]

I could link games but I'd rather not.

[Shoshin]

EP, why'd you agree with 276?

[Shoshin]

And why was Nauci town at that point?

[Shoshin]

549 is a pretty bad post from Momrangal.

Why?