Micro 813 - Game Over

Micro Games (9 players or fewer). Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:07 am

Post by MafMen »

In post 398, LuckyOtter wrote:
In post 191, MafMen wrote:since yall aint scummy im just gonna poe this shit

Almost Definitely Town: GuiltyLion, Manatee, LuckyOtter, Oath
Slight Town: Antihero

Scum POE : Invisibility, Korina, OkaPoka (probably will change later)

someone case me, because other than saying im "neutral" and anti's case, i havent heard anything else
You went from this to scumreading anti with very little explanation other than reading their argument as fake, is what I'm talking about.
thats because anti was furthest down the list so i stuck him in poe with oka
and then i saw their argument and it solidified it for me

jfc
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:09 am

Post by MafMen »

LuckyOtter wrote:
In post 395, Antihero wrote:yeah... atp invis has to go
In post 394, LuckyOtter wrote:I also have complicated feelings about GL that I want to explore before the end of the day and don't have time to right now.
most interesting sentence in above post
Interesting how? Be explicit.
are invis and mafmen really scumreading each other...?
That is indeed the question and my point. They both give the appearance of scumreading each other without really following through on it. Invis reads Maf as null but puts him in his lynch basket (but doesn't vote him) and Maf gives an early scumread of invis then backs out of it, supposedly because his scumread of invis hinged on korina being scum. If invis flips scum my money is on Maf using this excuse to back out of voting his partner.
it is because it hinged on korina
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:34 am

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In post 399, LuckyOtter wrote:Interesting how? Be explicit.
literally. your GL read is the thing that most piques my curiosity, mostly bc you characterize it as "complicated" and bc most ppl have GL as solid town

things that are different are interesting to me.
In post 400, MafMen wrote:thats because anti was furthest down the list so i stuck him in poe with oka
and then i saw their argument and it solidified it for me

jfc
i mean... to be fair, it is pretty laughable
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:41 am

Post by OkaPoka »

yeah im going to need a better explanation on guiltylion from you otter
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:51 am

Post by LuckyOtter »

Sorry Anti, I thought you were being shady there and saying 'interesting' as in 'mildly suspicious.' My bad.

I do promise to expand on my thoughts on GL after he responds to my question. I don't have a solid read on him just yet.
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:12 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 394, LuckyOtter wrote:GL can I just get a clarification as to what extent you value reading someone based on tone vs. content? Like, are they both valuable, and are they equally valuable to you?
I don't really have a strict philosophy about this, they're both valuable in that they're both data points you can use to try to form your conclusion, but I think it varies depending on how significantly townie/scummy the given piece of evidence is. Most of all I think I value looking at whether someone's thought process seems
genuine
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Like if someone is making an argument or supporting a conclusion that just seems really forced and unnatural, then I would say their content feels scummy as I have a hard time comprehending how a townie genuinely believes that argument/conclusion. If someone is projecting an emotion which seems forced or faked, then I would say the tone feels scummy as I have a hard time comprehending how a townie genuinely feels that way. The strength/value of that evidence depends on how hard it is for me to get into their mindset and justify them pushing that content/projecting that tone as town. And on the flipside, if someone makes an argument I can't imagine them making as scum, or projecting emotion which I don't think they would fake as scum, then that gives them towncred.

does that make sense? Most of all I try to look for people who look authentic in how they post, both in content and tone, and do it in a way that makes me think they'd have a hard time replicating that play as scum. The best scum players (or at least, the ones that consistently fool me) are the ones who can be authentic and make arguments they believe, only they're using those genuine pushes to advance an informed win-con.

if this relates to the shade I keep throwing at you, it's because I can see how all the arguments/points you are making make sense to me, they're usually things I agree with and I don't think you're ever reaching or twisting logic to support your agenda. But tone-wise you're very composed and neutral, and it makes me wary because while I can imagine town being composed/neutral, it's also where scum strive to be when they don't feel comfortable faking emotions. With you it's more of an absence of hallmark towniness rather than anything explicitly scummy. every post leaves me like "yeah, that looks fairly town, but it's not something I can't imagine posting as scum"
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:14 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 384, MafMen wrote:i had a gutfeeling that invisibility was bussing korina as well as that post i quoted day 1 solidifying it for me
also I honestly forgot that at the time I did find that Invis post that you quoted fairly scummy as well, so being fair I can see how you'd see that as SvS and remembered agreeing with you on that point

I didn't think it got less scummy after the Korina townflip though
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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:30 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

my latest feeling is here

lock town: {Anti, Oath}
prob town: {Oka}
mehhh: {Otter, Maf, Manatee}
scum: {Invis}

I was kinda waiting a day or so to post this but with some reflection on his responses to me I'm finding Maf less scummy than probably implies, if Invisibility flips scum and I'm dead I wouldn't advocate a straight up Maf quicklynch, I'd try to probe this Otter/Manatee uncertainty first

Otter's reads feel kinda like textbook consensus with the current gamestate, not quite sure what that means at the moment. if he's town then hopefully we're just bang-on with our scumreads and scumteam isn't trying that hard (which feels kinda like the naive best-case scenario and probably not likely if I'm being realist/pessimist), if he's scum then it means Invis is probably scum getting the bus but the third scum is likely safer than MafMen. I don't think that post makes sense coming from Otter in Otter/Maf/Invis world
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:39 am

Post by GuiltyLion »

In post 394, LuckyOtter wrote:Gut says Mafmen slightly scummier, but Invisibility being a liability going forward makes an equally good candidate, maybe better because if we lynch Maf and he turns up town, I don't feel much better about Invis!town, whereas if we lynch Invis and he turns up town, I feel somewhat better about Maf!town and burning down my reads and starting over.
can you clarify why Invis town points to Maf town? Who becomes scummier on a town!Invisibility flip?
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 10:45 am

Post by OkaPoka »

is invis going to show up?
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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:34 am

Post by LuckyOtter »

I asked for a couple of reasons. Partly because your view of tone as an argument seems to have shifted slightly.

Exhibit A:
In post 71, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 57, MafMen wrote:my explanation is his meta
In post 63, MafMen wrote:his tone is completely different as scum and town
and i mean COMPLETELY
I want the receipts on this one. "Meta" and "tone" are buzzwords that mean nothing. People can change their playstyle as they improve and personally my tone changes in all sorts of contexts, sometimes depending on whether I've eaten that day or not.

What games are you looking at with Manatee when he was town, what games when he was scum, what are the differences between those and why are his towntells that you've apparently seen already impossible for scum!him to replicate here?

VOTE: MafMen
You're pretty dismissive of Mafmen's use of tone in his own argument. Given what you've just said, I can see that maybe you didn't like the use of tone on its own as an excuse (especially since Maf didn't really explain this very clearly, which was my beef with the argument), but still calling tone a 'buzzword that means nothing' is pretty dismissive, especially considering that you go on to reference tone in your own view of me later on.

Exhibit B:
In post 204, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 197, MafMen wrote:A. thats me jumping on a bandwagon which will dirty my image more even if its dumb
C. otters tone feels townie, yes that's a bad reason however im confident about it so i stuck them in "almost definitely town"
A. dude it's mafia you should never be concerned with your "image", primary concern is always exposing and lynching scum
C. this is weird because I think Otter's tone feels guarded/formal which is not usually what I associate with "townie", to me what feels townie about Otter is mostly just the actual content he's bringing
The change from Exhibit A to B that feels just a bit off. What I'm having to decide here is whether or not you meant to say in your first statement that tone is a 'buzzword that means nothing
if unsubstantiated
.' Based on your response I'm leaning yes.

The only hangup I still have here is that the words you have used to describe my tone, "guarded, formal, neutral, composed," are
exactly
how I read you. Until you get to know me, these things ought to be completely NAI for you given that you have a very similar writing style (don't you think? Maybe you're not aware) so long as it doesn't appear that I'm being overly cautious in my actual gameplay. Pedit: Apparently this is an actual concern of yours, so that lines up.

All this to say that I somewhat question how genuine your reads are. I can see a world in which you are scum keeping me as a lynch option open should the opportunity arise. But I can also see townie with genuine suspicion and paranoia and that resonates more with me right now. Responding to some other things momentarily.
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:51 am

Post by LuckyOtter »

In post 408, GuiltyLion wrote:
In post 394, LuckyOtter wrote:Gut says Mafmen slightly scummier, but Invisibility being a liability going forward makes an equally good candidate, maybe better because if we lynch Maf and he turns up town, I don't feel much better about Invis!town, whereas if we lynch Invis and he turns up town, I feel somewhat better about Maf!town and burning down my reads and starting over.
can you clarify why Invis town points to Maf town? Who becomes scummier on a town!Invisibility flip?
I will answer this, and then I want you to answer it, because in your previous post Invisibility is scum in both of your scenarios.

To me, Invisibility feels scummy regardless of anyone else's alignment, whereas Mafmen is at least a little bit associative based on his moving his vote away from Invis. If Invis flips town I'm more likely to believe Maf's reasoning for his vote move and therefore need to reassess the whole situation. In that scenario, I'm looking to sort out you and Manatee, with Manatee being the current obvious choice.

I 100% agree that Mafmen should not be a quicklynch if Invis turns up scum, btw.
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:06 pm

Post by LuckyOtter »

To illustrate and be clearer, this:
In post 220, MafMen wrote:
In post 213, Invisibility wrote:hi
korina is still scum
k i might stick with my reads because this sounds like straight up bussing

VOTE: Korina
after this flips scum we lynch invis
followed by
In post 265, MafMen wrote:even though invis is acting quite scummy i cant help but feel im wrong after my last mistake
would mean:
A.scum!Maf + scum!Invis = Maf conveniently shifts away from his partner
B.scum!Maf + town!Invis = Maf decides not to go after an easy lynch for some reason? Maybe for towncred, but staying off a townie lynch doesn't buy that much towncred anyway, especially when the townie in question is being scummy (and Maf even says so)
C.town!Maf + town!Invis = Maf is legit questioning his Invis read
D.town!Maf + scum!Invis = Maf is legit questioning his Invis read (but shouldn't be)

If Invis flips town scenario C makes more sense to me. If he flips scum I feel a bit better about A than D but it's not a lockdown.
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:10 pm

Post by Invisibility »

In post 409, OkaPoka wrote:is invis going to show up?
hi
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:12 pm

Post by Invisibility »

what is the case on me other than that i fit into people's scumteams? that's not rhetorical btw
also if i can find the time i need to analyze who's pushing me because scum actually are having to prevent my lynch from falling apart due to the gamestate being delayed by a replace out i think?
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:21 pm

Post by OkaPoka »

You aren't bothering to put effort into game solving/asking questions or defend yourself and I am getting the vibe from you that you don't want to cough up any possible associative tells.
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Post by Invisibility »

ok cool i guess
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:32 pm

Post by LuckyOtter »

In post 261, Invisibility wrote:2. GuiltyLion - likely town
3. MafMen - null
4. ManateeDude - lynchbait
5. OkaPoka - scumlean
6. Oath - town
7. Invisibility - dog
8. Antihero - likely town
9. LuckyOtter - null
{Oka, mafmen, Lucky}
VOTE: okapoka
Also, you came up with this readslist without explaining any of it. And that was on page 11 and you've posted several times since then with 0 actual content.
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:37 pm

Post by Invisibility »

ok well
anti and GL were towny because they were seeming pretty gamesolvy and Oath was town because i agreed with i think antihero?
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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:40 pm

Post by Oath »

In post 410, LuckyOtter wrote: All this to say that I somewhat question how genuine your reads are.
I can see a world in which you are scum keeping me as a lynch option open should the opportunity arise. But I can also see townie with genuine suspicion and paranoia and that resonates more with me right now.
Responding to some other things momentarily.
I gotta be honest. I don't particularly like this from Otter. Everything else seemed great up until here, but then I try to imagine what motivation you could have for casting doubt onto GL when you've already agreed that you two share a similar writing style and tone? It seems like you're trying to cast doubt on GL subtley and then backtracking on it. Real talk ? Seems like you're worried about what happens after the Invisibility flip since GL seems to be the only one that really has you as an option in the back of their mind still. I ISO'd GL and he's consistently left room for Otter to be partners with Invis, so it's not like a spur of the moment thing like this Otter shade seems? iF that makes sense? Do you genuinely think that GuiltyLion could be scum and if so who with?

P-edit: I'm actively pushing your lynch. My MAIN concern is the wagoning. It's convenient- no content/explanation even when asked.
Day 1 you hopped onto my wagon, and it seemed like an after thought because you had posted in thread after me WITHOUT voting me and then once Manatee placed a vote on me you just joined it.
Ex: Timeline:
Manatee comments, votes Mafman and calls for wagon
I (Oath) comment, vote(s) Mafman
You (Invisibility) comment(s) "they make little snack rectangles of dairy goodness that are very delicious" (in response to me being unaware that Land O Lakes made cheese) - this is the suspicious part to me, NO VOTE (xx:27 timestamp)
Manatee calls out me for wagoning, Votes Oath (me) - (xx:34)
Then you (Invisibility) vote me and say "For cheese!" which seems weird, like a way to joke off an actual vote because if it were a joke about the cheese why was there an 11 minute gap between those posts? And 4 minutes after Manatee's vote? (xx:38)

Then you hop on to Manatee's wagon later in the day after Gl and BlackStar/Oka slot.

You did have a stand alone vote on Korina at one point, then switched to another stand alone vote on BlackStar. It just seems like when Korina's wagon picked up steam you found a reason to hop back on saying "
okay so last night i realized that korina was basically on the manatee wagon which means i can vote him yay!"

Obviously Korina flipped town and you began the day with an Oka vote, now this is circumstantial, but MafMan followed that lead and I was already thinking you guys were possible scum partners and both of you were on the Korina wagon for what I felt were weak reasons so this is the second wagon and a strong effort at the start of a new day. Yeah, that's more of a team read and I would say if Maf is town and Manatee is town, I'm less confident that Invisibility is scum but we don't really have time to test both those theories and you're the common denominator- most likely to flip scum.

I would say you're only redeeming quality is that I can't see how this style of play benefits you as town or scum, but wrestling with the idea of possibly mislynching and having you around in lylo scares the crap out of me. The only other person I would be willing to lynch today is MafMan, but I'm just a bit less confident there.

Honestly, Invisibility do you think you're a liability or an asset right now? Because if you are town, I'm not even sure keeping you around will yield successful results. I am very confident, however, that GL and Anti have a hold on this game that will ultimately win it for us.
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:45 pm

Post by Invisibility »

im not replying to your question for reasons that, if i were to explain, would have negative affects
Invisibility is actually AWESOME!
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:59 pm

Post by Oath »

So do you have anything to say in regards to the wagoning? You seemed to be unsure why you were being scum read and I've laid out my perspective at least.
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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 pm

Post by Invisibility »

that's why i'm reading over the game
i find your reason pretty weak though. what about me changing my vote 11 minutes after the first vote makes me scum? the reason you laid out in the first post where you talked about SRing me you said it was opportunistic but like i wasnt trying to get you lynched. it was to hurry the game out of RVS.
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:11 pm

Post by Invisibility »

okay finished D1
it was a skim over so i might have missed something
the two people currently alive that scumread me were oath and GL. oath had reasons. GL didn't.
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Post Post #424 (ISO) » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:13 pm

Post by Invisibility »

out gate right of GL votes me. Oka is "content" with my lynch.
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