Alisae V Pine: Trees Apparently Make Good Treestumps

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Fuckin bummed that pine didn’t consider me good enough for the scum team

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VOTE: krazy

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Question: based on flavour, isn’t pine technically the good guy?

@jj I mean he’s won all the other games so far, no?

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VOTE: fb

Can we try to remember the thing about limiting hyperposting

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bargain: neighbourizer

Pine, if this hasn’t happened yet (as technically chicka hasn’t met their side of the bargain) can I get in on it instead?

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Because I don’t like chickadee asking for fruit immediately (I think twice because iirc it was her entrance too?), I don’t like how good the bargain pine’s giving her is, neighbouriser is like my favourite power theoretically and yet I never fucking get it

Also, VOTE: xof

Not totally sure I agree with LLD about the not engaging with pine thing but I thought the logic made sense from town because I’d been wondering about the same thing myself

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that might be the single most disgusting couple of posts I've seen in a while

Are you referring to me?

idunno how obvious I need to make it to establish that voting xolelf is not cool

Do you actually think that xof is town or you’re just looking forward to playing with them?

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VOTE: chickadee

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Okay ank, I’ll bite, what was bad about them?

PB, could you do some more obvtowning so I can townlock you pls

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Answer 570 ank

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Mena who would you neighbourize if you had it

PB

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Because I really didn't like how you didn't like chickadee immediately asking for the fruit so you just..
did it yourself???

I didn’t like chickadee asking for the fruit so insistently and getting accepted in a really good bargain and playing up (I think?) it having possible risks due to FB being the highest wagon at the time when it was always likely that would go down therefore making it quite a safe bargain

So fmpov it would be much safer for me to have the neighbouriser shot bc I know I’m town

Which makes it not really the same thing at all

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I think roughly I’m at

Town

PB
Mastina
Lld
Dann

Null!town

Worst
Maria — it irks me to put this here but she’s doing about as terrible a job of reading my slot as the last time we played together which I’m taking as townie bc it seems to stem from her genuinely not being able to read me rather than an agenda
FB

Null

Pops

Null!scum

PP
Chenn


Scum

Ank — their inability to see the town thought process and cop out of “the difference is that I think chickadee is town” is scummy
Chickadee — for reasons previously mentioned

Everyone else hasn’t made enough of an impact on me yet for me to have an opinion either way

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@maria considering how bad you were at reading me in pfup why are you confident in your ability to do so here?

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Oh, I forgot, yeah you did

You just called me anti-town bc I was (correctly) TRing PB while you (incorrectly) scumread him

That was while you weren’t busy pushing RCE (mason) and i was pushing FL (scum)

Yes maria I was so antitown that game however did I forget

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pls spell my name right

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I'm also confused how people glossed over menalque basically throwing my scumread of him under the "she didn't see the town thought process and that makes her scum" when his 'town thought process' was basically "chickadee did the same thing I did except she's scum for it because pine gave her an easy bargain and she accepted it" and completely ignored that if you suddenly show up out of nowhere and do exactly what you just criticize someone else for, it looks sketchy and hypocritical

No, it’s distinctly different because one was unprompted while the second was a reactive process prompted by the first

And while I thought it was weird I wasn’t really SRing you for it until I explained it and you started being wilfully dense about it

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I have lots of love for you PB

Shall we get team love and wholesomeness back together for a second round of scumbusting?

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Why does that make chickadee town? It could make her town but it could just as easily make her scum if she knows people will think that doing something to make her an easy target makes her towny for not caring about it

Again, I didn’t do exactly what she did because you’re eliminating any context, which is a misrep and it’s why I SR you. Either you’re intentionally ignoring context which is scummy, or you’re being dumb town. Atm I think scum is more likely because I explained my thought process and you barely even considered it. By your own logic, if making yourself open to being a target is towny, you should at least be having major doubts about me. But you’re behaving weirdly certain for D1.

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I mean you haven’t discounted anything imo, you’ve just insisted that the actions are the same while I’ve explained that they’re not. Yet you keep pushing the line. I would have said it was just a difference of opinion, but you’re not even trying to see it fmpov which is scummy because you’re not genuinely trying to sort me

You’re also trying to shade me in a really subtle way at the same time, saying that i “turned it into” a scumread on you instead of “you started scumreading me for it”. That makes it sound like i crafted it instead of it being a natural evolution.

And it’s also weird that you’re STing my entire play seeing as I hadn’t done v much at the point when that started and I think anyone in this game who knows me would probably have that at pretty null. But instead you hopped on and started SRing me fairly hard with nothing to really back it up. Now you’re shoehorning in later things (my readslist) when that information wasn’t available to you at the time of your initial scumread on me

I also think I’m a good target for scum this game because of being (i think?) the newest player here and pine knowing that I often get SR early on as both alignments. So the fact that you’re pushing me like this for reasons as bad as they are is also scum!indicative

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actually stuff that let's unpack 1022 rq

- done nothing so we should be nullreading you
- are mislynch bait so we shouldn't push you
- Ank is scum because she's trying to crack open a discussion in as much detail as possible on your play so far and isn't trying to sort you

just unpack that post just now from the perspective of someone trying to work out your alignment. I'm concerned you're dedicating a lot of time to trying to swat at people pushing you and not much time towards sorting people. survivalism is as often a newbtown tell as a scumtell so I'm not feeling like crazy strong about scumreading that but you're also then appealing to the fact you don't think I'm entitled to scumread you because you haven't done enough yet

do you like..understand why I'm not equipped to townread you?

now, go ahead and read me. I'm saying that Ank saying she was SRing me

at the time she first voted me

for my

entire play

when I'd done nothing that would be a good reason to see me as anything other than null is weird

I'm not saying you shouldn't push me, I'm saying you should be aware of that as we go and that I think it makes scum inclined towards pushing me

who says I'm not sorting people? this is being very productive in terms of sorting you and ank so far. when it dries up then I'll start sorting elsewhere

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you're townier than you were before and ank is scummier

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I feel like your uncertainty and SR on me makes sense from your point of view. I hadn't fully explained myself and I can see how people could be confused about 1022. I think your behaviour indicates that you have a degree of uncertainty about your read which is normal from town D1 and your interactions with me seem to be from someone trying to get into my head and see where I'm coming from i.e. someone trying to actually sort me. You might end up wrong, but I still think the way you're going through the process is towny.

Ank, on the other hand, has just doubled down and isn't displaying any of the uncertainty I would expect from town, especially someone who apparently got to a SR on me based on my entire play of 3 posts at the time that happened. The degree of certainty from that point is strange to me. It's not necessarily scum, but given limited information at this point in the game it makes me happier with calling Ank scum for now because I don't think others are much scummier

also I actually forgot to do this VOTE: ank

still think chicka is bad but now I think ank's worse

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I will also drop it because I think we're approaching the point of this dominating the thread for ~2 pages and I'd like to see conversation about other stuff

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As if on cue...

Yeah, I went to see once upon a time in Hollywood with my dad last night and just woke up today. I need to lesson plan over mafia rn, but I know from skimming last night that I have questions from duck and FF to answer

I saw some of the lld/greyICE/kat stuff but I haven’t got an opinion on it yet

I should have some time around lunch. Which is approx 5 so you can expect more from me then

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Menalque Ankamius is doubling down. Either:

- This is a fake read she doesn't believe in and she is faking because she's scum => why is she doing this? I don't think she's going to mislynch you as scum here and shading you rn only makes you look unassociated, it's fairly unlikely to cause a shiny shiny day ending lynch. If you're town and think she's scum what makes you think her take on you is fake?

- She's town, thinks you're scum and hasn't seen anything which convinces her otherwise.

For context I've just seen scum!Ank powerscummung to push a townie in another game. I have pretty fresh meta of Ank pushing someone in argumentative bad faith because she wanted him mislynched. Her approach to you here feels a lot more earnest and organic than it did there; either she's scumming well or this is town!Ank. I'm happy to be convinced either way, but I suspect you're maybe voting her for frustrating you--could you have another think about this?

What do you mean voting her for frustrating me?

No, I don’t think she would want to speed wagon me because I don’t think enough people agree that I’ve been scummy enough for her to get away with a push that hard.

I think I’ve already explained this? Her certainty around my slot has felt weird and I wouldn’t expect that from town. If she normally plays like that as she claims (I’d like to meta it myself but I’m inclined to believe it) it lowers my SR on her a bit.

However, I still think that making claims about SRing me for my bargain request based on my entire play was a weird thing to say at that point. To me, that means that at the point she was SRing me she thought my entire play was scummy. I had 3 posts before the main post she was talking about. I don’t think that anyone can read reliably off three posts from someone they’ve never played with before, especially when the posts are as null as mine were.

his kind of tunnel is firmly within your scumrange

did you see that i was pushing chennis as well?

Something about this post pings me. Like he gets accused of tunneling and that it would be in his scum range, and Icons response is that he has also been pushing Chenny. I looked back and saw that Icon has talked about Chen a bit, but there is nothing worth breaking into a hot dog eating contest to report.

And the idea that Icon caught Gamma in a slip because he sat with Marias post for a bit and ended up not liking it, is ridiculous on its face. Are you telling me that you never read a post and felt it was ok, and then had it niggling away at your brain saying something felt off or something wasnt quite right, and then when you looked at things again it made more sense with other stuff being taken into account?

Someone check me on the worst

I'm starting to townread him and I want to be sure I'm not being charmed like I usually am when he's scum

Be weary. The fact that he hasnt said a fucking word to me yet is as much of a scum claim as anyone has made so far. Ducky, you cant dodge me. I can smell your fear.

1.now, go ahead and read me. I'm saying that Ank saying she was SRing me at the time she first voted me for my entire play when I'd done nothing that would be a good reason to see me as anything other than null is weird

2. I'm not saying you shouldn't push me, I'm saying you should be aware of that as we go and that I think it makes scum inclined towards pushing me

3. who says I'm not sorting people? this is being very productive in terms of sorting you and ank so far. when it dries up then I'll start sorting elsewhere

1. I've always disliked when people try to discredit other peoples reads by saying that what they are based on shouldnt exist. You are playing in a way that is coming off scummy. If you are then you are being obvious scum and if you arent then you are being bad town and you should stop it.

2. Just because you say scum are more inclined to push you doesnt make that gospel. If you were town you would be saying not to push you.

3. What are your current reads?

you're townier than you were before and ank is scummier

I feel the opposite. Can you explain why you feel this way a bit instead of just making a naked statement about reads without any of your thought process evident.

Pedit- Chick- are you willing to work with the town and make a choice, or are we going to offer our opinions and you are going to do whatever you want to do? And whos in your top two tiers right now?

I would edit this but I’m on my phone so you’re gonna have to read through the whole quote

1) I don’t know what you mean about discrediting? Also there are clearly multiple people who disagree with that. Your inability to read me as town isn’t my problem, and I’m not changing my playstyle to account for some people.

2) what?

3) pretty similar to the last time I gave them but you’re in townleans because you’re very different to purge so far

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maybe that just boils down to TWTBW

which, I have 0 meta with LL so maybe I'm wrong in assuming these things aren't scum indicative

What is TWTBW?

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Thanks, Ali, that was a v nice message

I’ll bear it in mind going through this game, esp paragraph 4

(P.s. it’s my second large, I was in the first one with PB, mastina, maria town and we lost to scumber leaf and gamma scum)

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PB I’m rly sad that you did the appreciation page while I wasn’t around

Also, can you explain 1450 real quick and gimme your current top SR(s)?

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PB I’m rly sad that you did the appreciation page while I wasn’t around

Also, can you explain 1450 real quick and gimme your current top SR(s)?

I'm sorry, you were next in the line actually, so if I have time tonight I'll do an encore of appreciation posts.

About 1450, I think you're trying to make us townread each other like you did in pfup. I'm voting the duck for the same reason.

I'm not a fan of Ari, he's way too focused on jjh. mastina and PP are on my watchlist. I have stronger townreads than scumreads tho.

Is it working? (In both cases)

What don’t you like about mastina? This seems in line with what I know of town!mastina for now. I’m sure she’s capable of fooling me as scum, but I’m not SRing her at this point

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VOTE: lld

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ooh a pagetop

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UNVOTE:

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@Mastina

Please shoot in the following
DGB
Chennisden
Pink Ball

please do it

I disagree about PB but I’ll get to why later

Broadly he seems entirely consistent with town him who I’ve had multiple games with recently

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No, go sleep Ali, I gotta get to work and I’m still 10 pages behind

I’d like to talk about lld later when you’re back tho because I kinda think she’s town?

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- If a player is old and came out of retirement to play, or is new and their play is still developing, they most likely were randed town
- If Pine doesn't have the meta knowledge or personal experience with a player, they are most likely town
- If Pine does not work well with them they are most likely town

From there, Pine has a smaller list of people that he can work with to try and assemble his dream team.

I think I'm the newest in this playerlist.
I think Pine has played with me once, and I was town and he was scum.
And we can't know for sure if we would work well because of my previous statement.

Like, at least pretend you're being consistent with the things you say, Ali.

*waves*

PB, why did you have to go and ask for fruit

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I really

really

don’t want him to be though

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Ali, I have to get back off lunch in a moment, can you sum up why you think lld is scum? I definitely think because of the way the gamestate nose dived as part of the lld wagon that scum was involved but idk I’m not sure I necessarily see LLD as scum for it?

I ideally need to reread but I’m not sure it was her who really fucked up the gamestste and whoever was responsible for that is the person I think is most likely to be scum

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PB why are you ignoring me?

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FF you never got back to me when I responded to you/asked for more clarification

Also waiting on the duck but I know he’s V/LA

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PB why are you ignoring me?

I would NEVER dustybun.

Whats up?

So like, I feel that I could be being over sensitive here, but I did it kinda odd that you’re not interacting with my very much in this game? Idk, I think we have pretty good chemistry as town but you’ve felt more distant here. I don’t think you’d try to make me feel bad, but you’ve implied that you’ve forgotten I’m in the game twice which feels weird idk? When you said that you thought you were the newest player in the game and when you couldn’t remember who else bargained for fruit alongside chicka

And I’m not certain but I’m pretty sure that I directly asked you something (I think about whether trying to get you to play with me like we did in pfup and if it was working) and that you never answered?

I can get it from you just being more excited about playing with other people in the list than me but tbh it just makes me kinda sad which is weird bc again, I don’t think you’d do that on purpose

So I’m wondering if you could be scum who doesn’t wanna interact with me because we have multiple recent games together? But I’m also very tired and a bit stressed and so idk if I’m just ascribing that to you because I don’t wanna work off the basis of you just forgetting I exist

Also I’m confused by why you asked for fruit, and especially after I explicitly SR chicka for the same thing I almost feel like it’s a dare to me to SR you when you know that I don’t want to?

That’s rambly, I’m sorry, I hope it makes some sense

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1. When I talk about discrediting a read from someone i mean that instead of attacking the read head on the person descrediting the read would do something to throw shade on the person themselves. The line you say "WHen id done nothing that would be a good reason to see me as anything other than null." Seems like another way of saying the read is bad, but not addressing the sr, just making the idea seem redic.

2. You said youre not saying we shouldnt push you, but are saying that iyo scum is more likely to push you. You would say this as town or scum I assume, so its a pointless statement.

3. Purge i sucked because i was expecting something different and was scum in 2 games which made me struggle in both. I should be different here. Because ive got a lot of BDE coming out of me, and if you dont wanna get sticky stay behind or off to the right, it pulls left sometimes.

1) why do you think that discrediting like that is more likely to come from scum than town? Like obviously if I think scum is pushing me then I’m going to try and show that the read is bad and discredit it. Idk, maybe I’m just not getting the distinction you’re making, I’m really tired

2) yeah, fair

3) have you got any other recent scum games you could link so that I can take a look if I have time?

Also, question for you and ico: have either of you been scum with pine before?

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Im here, do I hammer to deny PB fruit?

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wait has hammer been dropped?

I think so?

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Ank did you bargain for watcher earlier?

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Oh, she was scum

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I think ank dying implies one of the following is scum:

Chickadee
Aristophanes
The worst
Firebringer
Greyice
Skygazer

Why? Because she stated around this readlist that she had 6 TRs and then (as pointed out later) she refused to give another readslist. The fact that she made comments about living to the next day means she probably aimed at town and hit someone in those names.

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Ali, can you talk to me about 3589 when you get here pls?

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@FF if you think they're bussing each other, who would you vote? Who has more scum equity in case only one of them is scum?

Why are you asking this PB?

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PB I’m kinda worried you’re scum

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So the main reason I’m worried is that a couple of posts implied that you had forgotten I was in the game, but then in your response to me you said you were ignoring me while deciding if i was scum and that seems contradictory to me? Then you popped a TR on me which I’m kinda worried was just to appease me by starting the whole thing of you TRing me and me TRing you

Plus you saying that we could talk it out today but then me needing to poke you to get a response again. And alright, again, idk if I’m just being egotistical as I can see how you could have forgotten but overall it just gives me bad vibes

And I didn’t love that question bc it doesn’t necessarily make sense for someone who’s SRing two two people for SvS to choose between them, I mean I’d almost rather lynch the less scummy one first because I’d be worried that the less scummy might get away after claiming it wasn’t distancing upon the scummier one flipping red. And I think you asking that could be to start suggesting subtly that when FF comes back to think about it he has to consider that he did think one scummier than the other and maybe the other person just saw what he did.

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Yeah that’s groovy, I can wait. I still wouldn’t actually want to lynch you until a later point even if I was really SRing you rather than just leaning there

I hope you have a good time at the beach! Also I’ll think about that, it’s a good point but I’m worried that scum!you could be worried that due to us having lots of recent meta I’d notice something off in your tone and avoid me bc of that

Disfrútalo!

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VOTE: DGB

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What the fuck did I just come back to??


@Mena - you were super keen on fruit yesterday, and now you seem completely uninterested. Why?

No, I wanted to deny you fruit because I didn't like the way you hopped on immediately. Also I wasn't lying lol, I really wanted to get neighbouriser in particular, roleblocker is like my least favourite power

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also I only skimmed the last ~10 pages, but Krazy I thought that you ranked Xofelf as the most likely target for Ank, not me? if that's right, why the flip in your opinion

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@krazy if I were a hider in this game I would try to confirm town instead of proving that one of my scumreads is scum, especially if the rest of the playerlist don't have enough info on who I checked.

Yes, I have played with both scum and town Mena. I think this is town Mena. I was paranoid he was trying to ressemble his town game with me and he would try to pocket me, but no, that's not the case, I don't feel pocketed at all, he's just town again.

I'm feeling better about you now because I can understand town!you being paranoid about scum!me trying to pocket you (esp as I think one of the reasons why pine might have brought me in would be for me to try and hard pocket you (and maybe Krazy?)) plus I do think scum you does probably just outright go for it and pocket me rather than give me doubts early on.

I still have a couple of reservations, I think along similar lines to your feelings about ducky, but yeah, I think you're town now

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Krazy, also, talk to me about why Ank uses her hider to try and find scum instead of hiding behind town? I don't know her v well (obviously) so I'd like to know why you think that's a more likely play

from her specifically

?

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Final point is that I'm kind of less sure about everything this game due to having far weaker relationships with the majority of people here than most other players in the game, which makes me less confident on who I think pine would pick, and gives me less meta to draw from in who should be where. On the upside of that, I doubt scum plays with me in mind this game.

One thing I don't like is the interactions between ducky, dann, chicka, and Krazy. It's hard to put my finger on, but there seems like there's a lot of coordination there. I think if someone was pocketing me, dann is a likely target because we've played together and I think I was hard TRing him there quite quickly. I don't like that he's the one chicka added, and I don't like how he and ducky seem to be driving things in a certain direction.

That said, I also don't like the self-vote from DGB (for obvious reasons). Mastina changing her claim isn't good, but also seems like something Mastina would do? I mostly don't love Mastina because I think she's been less incisive than when I've played with town her/3rd party her. I don't really have a read on Xof but I guess it could be distancing?

Pretty much none of my reads are strong enough for me to fight anyone on them, and I wasn't particularly sure that lld was scum (mostly because I know she has a reputation as a

very

strong scum player, so I didn't think she'd implode like that on D1 quite so spectacularly -- in fact, that makes me feel like it could have been an intentional throw to give towncred to people who hard pushed her early, but we'll see).

I know this is kind of hedgy and non-committal, but I'm not confident enough in my own reads to go against town consensus when it could just be that I'm getting bad feels because the group in the first four (ducky, dann, Krazy, chicka) are just mind melding, but I wanted to put this out there for discussion.

Also, don't like that based on my Ank thinking two people from that group were very viable hider targets for her.

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also I only skimmed the last ~10 pages, but Krazy I thought that you ranked Xofelf as the most likely target for Ank, not me? if that's right, why the flip in your opinion

? I think the only person who argued xof was a possible crumb target was Ari

oh, I mixed you up then, my bad

Krazy, also, talk to me about why Ank uses her hider to try and find scum instead of hiding behind town? I don't know her v well (obviously) so I'd like to know why you think that's a more likely play

from her specifically

?

Because I think she would want higher impact early in the game; when she gets going, she puts a lot of energy into her pushes, so if she really thinks that going into day 2 she would be likely to drive a lynch on someone, she would not waste a hide on a likely inno, she'd want to make sure she wasn't going to waste her effort and thought during the day on a bad read. Correcting a bad read is way more important (or confirming a guilty)... I also feel like Ank is not super concerned with dying if she feels it will get her a guilty, given she has been reducing her number of games anyway. Like she gets dragged into a lot of hydras so suiciding for a guilty doesn't really seem like something she'd be dramatically opposed to. She also seemed kinda frustrated that her read on you was being ignored, frankly.

I'd say her read was softening on me considerably, actually. Look at 1051. But significantly, look at 1906. In point 4, she speculates that she's probably a NK for scum

in midgame

. If she was planning to target her SRs and was confident in them then she would, I think, be suggesting that she'd be a NK for scum early on/dead early on. So imo she's suggesting she targeted town N1 and got it wrong.

In that same post, she's acknowledging that (1) we haven't played and (2) if this is my play style then it throws up a lot of false positives for her. She may not understand what made me towny, but she was willing to listen and talk about it. I'm not arguing that she wasn't SRing me by the end of D1, but I think she was less sure of that than she was during our early interaction, and so I don't think she targets me without a late day crumb to reconfirm that.

Plus, rereading her ISO now, I see that she also had doubts about you and about dann (earlier in the day) while she was TRing ducky strongly enough to want him to have watcher.

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I think one of the reasons why pine might have brought me in would be for me to try and hard pocket you

Where did you succeed in pocketing PB before?

in pfup I think we consistently TR each other from early D1 despite some late game paranoia in both directions

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I see that she also had doubts about you

because I wasn't sheeping her on her read of you...

in pfup I think we consistently TR each other from early D1 despite some late game paranoia in both directions

but Pine wasn't in that game? And you weren't scum? In what sense then did you "pocket" PB?

(1) was that all? I’ll go and check later. I thought it was your content in general.

(2) I don’t think pine not being in that means he wouldn’t prepare for this game by reading recent games. I don’t think you need to be scum to pocket someone

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I think she was less sure of that than she was during our early interaction, and so I don't think she targets me without a late day crumb to reconfirm that.

Like, OK, I can understand this, but your reaction to this push still bothers me. I feel like you went very hard into arguing that she would therefore hide behind a townread and was wrong, or someone she had doubts on but definitely never crumbed, and I feel like you're making that leap to move the conversation away from the simplest scenario, which is that Ank died hiding behind her strongest living scumread (i.e. you).

I feel like you want to move the conversation away from pops in a way that maybe spews pops town, because you don't want pops to get lynched as a green flip there would at that point doom your slot. Like, that's highly speculative, but arguing that we shouldn't be thinking Ank hit a guilty at all is pretty much exactly what I'd expect someone who thinks they have a guilty on them to be arguing.

Like, no shit Sherlock, because I know that scenario is impossible.

If there was a good reason to believe that she hid behind a SR rather thanTR which is not a case I think you’ve successfully made, then I’d be thinking about pops.

But right now I think your last two points are both just deflections trying to make the conversation about other things (i.e. the discussion on pocketing and bringing up pops there)

[Menalque]

(2) I don’t think pine not being in that means he wouldn’t prepare for this game by reading recent games. I don’t think you need to be scum to pocket someone

Pine WAS in Ruby though

Do you think I pocketed him in Ruby? I wouldn’t say so. I got a TR sure but I didn’t pocket him

[Menalque]

Also, just again: the interactions between chicka, ducky, and Krazy on 170 are exactly why I have concerns there

Ali, what do you think of them? Like I said, I might be totally off base here and it’s just that they do all TR each other legitimately, but if xof and DGB were to flip scum then I think that group has definitely got scum in it, probably multiple

[Menalque]

Hi SS, I’m gonna hold off on reading you for a lil while

[Menalque]

If you wanna read ank’s ISO and decide who you think she hid behind last night that would be useful

[Menalque]

If you wanna read ank’s ISO and decide who you think she hid behind last night that would be useful

*triggered*

I mean, her ISO is only

*checks ISO*

189 posts long. It’ll take you no time!

[Menalque]

Hullo pagetop old friend

[Menalque]

Fuck

[Menalque]

You don’t like the sound of DGB’s weird selfvote or you don’t like the sound of lynching her for it?

[Menalque]

If you wanna read ank’s ISO and decide who you think she hid behind last night that would be useful

*triggered*

yikes that's unfortunate

??

[Menalque]

??

The last time I played with Dann, he mislynched me as town based off of a misinterpreted hider guilty.

Oh, that’s hilarious then

[Menalque]

Fuck

All things aside Mena, this is a quality pagetop

I try to step up when the opportunity arises

[Menalque]

She claimed bulletproof vig D1 I think and is now claiming bodyguard

[Menalque]

Mastina what is your history with ank?

[Menalque]

How would using watcher on a main help protect said mason?

[Menalque]

you would vote yourself

This was a weird post dann, like as town I assume she wouldn’t and as scum I assume she might so why would she feel the need to say. And I’d expect you to know that so why would you ask her about it like you’re unsure what the meaning was?

[Menalque]

Yo SS got any reads yet?

[Menalque]

Hit me the fuck up anyone the adrenaline is going and it’s time to fucking party

[Menalque]

Ducky you around I wanna fuckin roll cause I think you’re scum

[Menalque]

Yo SS got any reads yet?

Most of the people who've posted enough to read recently are not ones I can read this quickly.

I do think pops is town.

I scumread Dann but I think I've scumread him initially in every game I've ever played with him .-.

I don’t like anyone on the group I mentioned before. I’ve come round to actively SR ducky. I think dann is the least scummy, but I don’t like his interactions with the others. I also feel like he could be TMIing with his read on me as town. Like, he’s getting it right, but idk if he’s playing up how strong the indicators are for town!me to hide the fact he knows I’m town and has also maybe been trying to pocket me

I don’t have a strong read on pops, why do you think she’s town?

[Menalque]

Also how do you read me?

[Menalque]

My wagon is a whole wagon of:

- people that didn't think I'm scum
- people that didn't think I'm scum but wanted the day over
- people that went "LOL self-vote LOL"
- opportunistic scum and I'll bet most were early on the wagon.

I believe it started out fueled by opportunistic scum (Katsuki notably) and concluded with jaded tired townies just going with the flow.

Why is Kat scum? You think it was a super early bus bc on lld?

[Menalque]

Why is Kat scum? You think it was a super early bus bc on lld?

Well yeah... you bus right out of the gate or you don't!

Do you guys have a lot of history together?

[Menalque]

Also how do you read me?

Very carefully.

I don't remember enough of your posts. When I'm on my computer and can navigate more easily I'll take a look.

Okay, let’s try this again. How likely do you think pine is to draft me and why?

[Menalque]

I don’t have a strong read on pops, why do you think she’s town?

Meta. Can't explain much beyond she feels genuine, which she didn't really as scum.

Alright, I’m waiting on pops bc I can’t decide yet. Prob null-ish for now

[Menalque]

Menalque, you and I both know how futile trying to read into Pine's WIFOM is.

I’m not asking you to read into his WIFOM, I’m asking you to consider going into the gsmetate how likely you think pine is to draft me and why

[Menalque]

Also how do you read me?

Very carefully.

I don't remember enough of your posts. When I'm on my computer and can navigate more easily I'll take a look.

Okay, let’s try this again. How likely do you think pine is to draft me and why?

Dude you’re my dark horse for Rising Star. I have a vested interest in seeing you perform here

I’m gonna be your goddamn front runner when people start learning to trust my fuckin reads homie

[Menalque]

@DGB so it’d be reasonable to think that you’d be pinged by kat going for you then, yeah? So why does she burn some of the towncred she just got for bussing lld on backing your lynch rather than avoiding being on it/soft white knighting you to avoid ou calling her out as you are doing?

[Menalque]

Why doesn’t she just keep voting mastina/pushing there?

Whats your read on mastina btw?

All @dgb

[Menalque]

I’m not asking you to read into his WIFOM, I’m asking you to consider going into the gsmetate how likely you think pine is to draft me and why

24%, because I don't think I can predict Pine's draft choices with better than random accuracy.

Why not? Or at least, why don’t you appear to be interested in trying to think about pine’s choices?

Obviously there will be WIFOM involved, but it seems to me that one of town’s strongest assets this game is that it’s not purely random. I’m new enough on the site that it’s pretty difficult for me to try and predict where he’d be more or less likely to draft, but I think the speculation is helpful especially as it gets confirmed by flips.

You’ve been around long enough on the site that I’d expect you to be thinking about this, even if you don’t think you could necessarily do better than random

[Menalque]

@DGB so it’d be reasonable to think that you’d be pinged by kat going for you then, yeah? So why does she burn some of the towncred she just got for bussing lld on backing your lynch rather than avoiding being on it/soft white knighting you to avoid ou calling her out as you are doing?

Menalque,

What good is towncred if you're not going to burn it on shitwagons?

I mean, if it were me I’d wanna save it for a 1v1 or a wagon that’s meeting resistance. Your wagon was going pretty easily imo, so I don’t see why she’d choose to burn it there unless you were stalling

[Menalque]

@pine yeah i know (re: 4899) but prosecuting them is a hell of a lot easier the more rep you have on the site

Also fucked if I know how to avoid suspicion, either it happens or it doesn’t

[Menalque]

I mean, if it were me I’d wanna save it for a 1v1 or a wagon that’s meeting resistance. Your wagon was going pretty easily imo, so I don’t see why she’d choose to burn it there unless you were stalling

It was whipped up early and enthusiastically by Katsuki. Do check the post history.

Your defense of Katsuki ought to be noted. I'll be too dead to remind people of it.

Yeah, it absolutely should be, and if kat does go after you and flips red I’m sure there’ll be more people calling me scum than there already are, boo hoo me

I will check it, but when I was looking at kat’s ISO a moment ago it looked like she only hopped on after others were scum binning you

[Menalque]

I will check it, but when I was looking at kat’s ISO a moment ago it looked like she only hopped on after others were scum binning you

aka opportunism

Yeah but I don’t see the point if she knows you well enough to know you’d SR her for it and call her out. I mean, I think the self-vote was p damning, yeah

But mostly I didn’t have anyone else I felt stronger over so I was willing to roll with ali

[Menalque]

Why not? Or at least, why don’t you appear to be interested in trying to think about pine’s choices?

Literally his entire goal in selection is to make sure we don't figure out who he selected. Why should I expect that he failed in that?

Well for one we lynched scum D1

I don’t get why you’re being avoidant here

[Menalque]

Pops, I don’t get what you’re saying

“Based on username, not on join date”

What?

[Menalque]

Hey friends! Just wanted to point out that this game just ended.

D3 was slow going and pretty dull...until this happened:

But...you are, aren’t you?

Fuck it, let’s openwolf. The Tracker gambit bought me a day, and you chumps swallowed it whole.

Hey tell you what

You’re going to have to lynch my partner to win anyway.

You have a much better chance to do so in 3:2 than 2:1, especially with me dropping clues

Lynch my partner today, and I’ll concede

Put the four of your heads together, and figure out which of you is the rat

I’m willing to bet you pansies suck enough to fail

...And then I talked them into mislynching Menalque.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHO YOU’RE FUCKING WITH?

Yeah but elsa isn’t in this game so you need someone else to be an idiot

[Menalque]

I think the self-vote was p damning

How is a self-vote from the player who invented self-voting damning?

What’s your logic here? I should never think it’s weird with a self-vote from you?

[Menalque]

Actually, I think Katsuki is prob scum

I just read the scum chat for groupchat and pine called said he wasn’t worried about the replacement for sky!slot unless someone “insane” repped in like kat

So I don’t think he’d wanna leave her to be town based on that, therefore he’d draft her

I also don’t think he’s playing 4d chess to the point that he’d crumb that in another game to try and make me SR a slot based on him suspecting I’d read that scumchat after the game

[Menalque]

Pops, I don’t get what you’re saying

“Based on username, not on join date”

What?

I meant, if you know S_S's personality, he is not the sort who will take any stock in gaming the draft. He wouldn't do so his first three months of playing, and if he joins a game like this ten years from now he still won't. That's just how it is even if more vets on average would take some interest in gaming the draft.

Okay, why are you hopping in to say this rather than letting him say it himself?

[Menalque]

Pops, I don’t get what you’re saying

“Based on username, not on join date”

What?

I meant, if you know S_S's personality, he is not the sort who will take any stock in gaming the draft. He wouldn't do so his first three months of playing, and if he joins a game like this ten years from now he still won't. That's just how it is even if more vets on average would take some interest in gaming the draft.

Okay, why are you hopping in to say this rather than letting him say it himself?

Because it's less plausible if he says it, because you're hinting you SR him for it so it makes it a self-serving characterization.

Selfmeta is always way crappier than third party meta.

No, I’m pressuring him for it so that I can try to get a better read on him. Based on the scumchat for groupchat that just finished, he seems like relatively neurotic scum. I’m kinda wondering now if you could both be scum as I can see him asking about it in the scum PT and someone else stepping off to take the pressure away from him directly

Also I happen to like self meta

[Menalque]

Actually, I think Katsuki is prob scum

I just read the scum chat for groupchat and pine called said he wasn’t worried about the replacement for sky!slot unless someone “insane” repped in like kat

So I don’t think he’d wanna leave her to be town based on that, therefore he’d draft her

I also don’t think he’s playing 4d chess to the point that he’d crumb that in another game to try and make me SR a slot based on him suspecting I’d read that scumchat after the game

Pine kinda fucked up when he drafted LLD but not me for the scumteam this game tbh.

Yes convincing argument friend I am very persuade

[Menalque]

Well I mean you just didn’t seeing as I don’t see why DGB pretends to be town here after she’s already lynched?

[Menalque]

I mean do you actually wanna engage with me here kat or do you wanna keep blowing me off

[Menalque]

I mean I’m still more or less nullreading you for now, I’ll decide in the near future

Also don’t think “I haven’t seen that” implies that it can’t happen

I don’t see why you can’t do both if I do end up SRing you tho

[Menalque]

Like I can see you bussing to be consistent with yourself but WKing him here to try and get someone else to consider the slot as town to hopefully see it not go through while keeping your bus up

[Menalque]

I mean I’d like you to talk to me about why my logic is flawed for thinking that pine respects you enough as town to call you out

by name

as a player he’d be worried about repping into a slot in a game that he otherwise thought was tied up, and then not NK you here if you’re town esp after you’d successfully caught one scum D1

[Menalque]

Why does he risk a player he thinks is that good as town coming in as fucking up his whole game plan when he learnt cares about this series? When he could just draft you instead to eliminate that risk?

[Menalque]

Why does he risk a player he thinks is that good as town coming in as fucking up his whole game plan when he learnt cares about this series? When he could just draft you instead to eliminate that risk?

the amount of people who actually make this list is very small.

Who do you think would? Because I also think it would be small, but based on his comment in the groupchat scum PR I can very easily see kat being on it

Also, solid page 200 pagetop mena

[Menalque]

Thanks mena, good effort

[Menalque]

Can I quote from a pt for a finished game?

Like quote the post with tags and everything?

[Menalque]

I hate this stupid twilight phase because I think I need to catch up but it's just useless filler wasting my time.

Hi maria did you miss me

[Menalque]

I hate this stupid twilight phase because I think I need to catch up but it's just useless filler wasting my time.

Hi maria did you miss me

Go fall in a ditch.

I love you too

[Menalque]

Omfg

667

It practically begged you lynch me, kill PP, lynch Elsa, kill Turkey, lynch either Menalque or Skyslot

Don’t pull the trigger until we get a replacement though

But that would be virtually auto-win for most replacements, unless it’s someone insane like Katsuki

This is from that scum pt

Also you’ve been going on about your reputation as a strong town player since early on this game:

Lynching LLD because she's good at scum is gross. That's not playing to wincon.

THATS NOT WHY WE'RE LYNCHING HER

WE'RE LYNCHIGN HER BECAUSE SHE'S SCUM THIS GAME

IDGAF WHOS GOOD AT SCUM AND WHOS NOT

MY LAST 10 GAMES ARE A GOOD ILLUSTRATION FOR WHY TOWNS SHOULD JUST SHEEP ME
IVE DEMOLISHED SCUM IN EVERY GAME IVE PLAYED IN THE PAST TWO YEARS AS TOWN

[Menalque]

I was more referring to Katsuki’s potential as an agent of chaos disrupting a precarious gamestate in that quote, Menalque

The

only

Town player scum!Pine actually fears is Ellibereth

And maybe kuribo

You’ll forgive me if I ignore you

Omfg

667

It practically begged you lynch me, kill PP, lynch Elsa, kill Turkey, lynch either Menalque or Skyslot

Don’t pull the trigger until we get a replacement though

But that would be virtually auto-win for most replacements, unless it’s someone insane like Katsuki

This is from that scum pt

Also you’ve been going on about your reputation as a strong town player since early on this game:

Lynching LLD because she's good at scum is gross. That's not playing to wincon.

THATS NOT WHY WE'RE LYNCHING HER

WE'RE LYNCHIGN HER BECAUSE SHE'S SCUM THIS GAME

IDGAF WHOS GOOD AT SCUM AND WHOS NOT

MY LAST 10 GAMES ARE A GOOD ILLUSTRATION FOR WHY TOWNS SHOULD JUST SHEEP ME
IVE DEMOLISHED SCUM IN EVERY GAME IVE PLAYED IN THE PAST TWO YEARS AS TOWN

I mean I think I'm a good town player after two best town performances and more townstomps than I can count, but others seem to think I'm average *shrug*.

This doesn’t seem like a super plausible thing for you to believe considering we were just in a game together where scum did kill you N1?

[Menalque]

Wait what? Which game? You sure that was me?

Oh fuck, no, it was Katyusha in pfup

[Menalque]

oh man mixing up Katyusha and Katsuki is one of those mistakes that only happens once

but why does it only happen once ducky?

[Menalque]

Yo ducky I’m feelin good about you being scum but I gotta sleep so I guess we have to save this for the other side of night

[Menalque]

Yo ducky I’m feelin good about you being scum but I gotta sleep so I guess we have to save this for the other side of night

sorry who are you again?
case me coward, you can discuss it with my adoring fans while I smash you and your dumb scumteam <3

The one who hasn’t played with you before so isn’t biased towards TRing you just because of liking yo on a personal level

Also, yes, I’m going to do that

[Menalque]

Its a game design class

Are you a game design major?

I wanted to take a class like that but they have all game design-specific prereqs so it's basically impossible :/

That exists as a thing?

[Menalque]

Game design major? Yeah, several of my friends are in it.

Overall it seems markedly inferior to CS, with far fewer useful skills being taught and far more bullshit projects. But they get to design games which is cool.

Oh, like video game design? I was thinking specifically board game design major was a thing, which sound super cool but v surprising. Game design as like a CS related thing makes more sense

[Menalque]

VOTE: SS

[Menalque]

@jingle, can you confirm whether NK flavour means anything or not?

[Menalque]

If it means something then there are three main things to consider: (1) does the fact that ank disappeared and nacho died by knife imply that pine was honest about scum not killing to fuck with us? (2) if we think it implies that ank was killed and didn’t hide behind scum it means that mastina is scum because she claimed BG on ank (3) it tells us we should look more at people who were defending mastina today (minimum dann)

If it doesn’t mean anything then I still think we have to consider (1) and (2) but it’s less damning for mastina if we conclude that the flavour for ank’s death does imply a NK

I’m inclined towards saying that if flavour does mean something it means scum didn’t NK N1 and I’d like to think about why they’d do that more, because while it could purely be for WIFOM I suspect it’s more planned than that

[Menalque]

So FB and SS are both scum, cool

Where was the town motivation to grab the fruit there, either of you go ahead and try to explain that to me?

[Menalque]

...So scum doesn't get it and use it to get a free kill?

When ali has explicitly said not to bargain for it and if there’s any one thing I would have been happy for her to leash us on above all else it’s prob this one

[Menalque]

Ah, also, new girlfriend. She's cool. I'll meet her family in about an hour, fuck me.

I’m not sure I’d do that in front of them if it’s the first meeting, but you do you.

Also, glad to hear that you had fun you bundle of adorableness!

[Menalque]

I mean I’d rather lynch FB but that’s gonna be redundant because he’s already made the bargain for governor

[Menalque]

Oooh, that sounds tasty

[Menalque]

Ali can I bargain for the neighbouriser?

[Menalque]

This IS a successful method of leashing Pine

Pine saying it won't work is entirely him trying to convince us not to do it.

He can ONLY pick people who have bargained with him. He clearly gets something out of giving away fruit. He wants to give away fruit.

If we go with Alisae deciding, he can either choose someone Alisae picked, or he can choose nobody.

If him picking nobody is preferable to him to picking someone that Alisae decides on, then it is pretty fucking clear that leashing is working

We can't not bargain. If nobody bargains, he can just give the fruit out.

So someone has to bargain. Getting Alisae to decide on it is an effective leash.

Leashing the mechanic is pro-town. Asking for fruit while not being a person Alisae has selected prevents leashing the mechanic, and as such is playing in a pro-scum manner.

I was reading jjh's ISO and there's this. I think (?) jjh was the only one pushing this way of doing things with any force, which makes me think it could be part of why he was killed, and therefore actually a very good idea.

[Menalque]

are you fucking kidding me

[Menalque]

seriously, I can't believe that everyone who has asked for fruit today is actually scum so instead I'm forced to conclude that we have town who are literally just playing anti-town

like what the fuck are you actually doing

[Menalque]

my only explanation for this is that we're pretty good on SS/FB!scum and this is scum intentionally trying to deflect? but again, struggling to believe that literally everyone after fruit today is scum

[Menalque]

Do you not follow my reasoning for doing so?

Well, sure, if I was actually TRing you outside of that I'd get it. I still don't get why you'd float actually asking for it without Ali's permission. Like I think in terms of benefit there's a very good chance scum get more from having an extra vote than we do from keeping town!you alive one extra day when we'd just lynch you the next day for grabbing governor fruit like that?

[Menalque]

Menalque, an you stop talking past me?

Pedit: oh hi mastina.

*Can you stop talking past me.

Seriously, it's getting annoying.

I don't think town!you seriously thinks I'm doing this when posts are flooding in and getting ninja'd all over the place

[Menalque]

Just because someone believes there's an optimal strategy doesn't mean the rest of us must follow. I LOVE neighborizer, regardless of alignment. My best wins come with a neighborizer.

Pedit: Reading mastina wall and follow up posts later.

there's a someone who believes there's an optimal strategy who was just NIGHTKILLED and rather than discuss whether or not we should PAY MORE ATTENTION TO DISCUSSING WHETHER THERE IS, IN FACT, AN OPTIMAL STRATEGY you and gamma decided to just come in and fuck things all sorts of up which also serves to derail the discussion of WHETHER THERE IS AN OPTIMAL STRATEGY

[Menalque]

Mastina why do you keep making it sound like N1 was all pine's doing when fypov ank hid behind scum?

[Menalque]

Well, sure, if I was actually TRing you outside of that I'd get it. I still don't get why you'd float actually asking for it without Ali's permission. Like I think in terms of benefit there's a very good chance scum get more from having an extra vote than we do from keeping town!you alive one extra day when we'd just lynch you the next day for grabbing governor fruit like that?

I don't follow. Are you under the impression that I would have used it if I got it?

..yes? because we were lynching you at that point?

[Menalque]

seriously, I can't believe that everyone who has asked for fruit today is actually scum so instead I'm forced to conclude that we have town who are literally just playing anti-town

like what the fuck are you actually doing

fake

not only fake but u were literally trying to get a fruit earlier.

I asked for neighboriser D1 because I thought chicka's instagrab was scummy. Idk how many times I have to reiterate this. Fmpov it was better for me to have the fruit than her because of the timing of her grab. I also don't think we were in the middle of discussing optimal fruit strategy at the time.

[Menalque]

sorry, am I the one who's high here today?

yes, mech talk is boring. yes, I hate it. yes, it would be nice to get it largely over with.

however, there is fruit in the game, and we should decide how to approach it. a con!town player was pushing a particular approach to said mechanic before dying, and as far as I remember, he was the only one pushing that particularly hard.

if he was right, it seems like a good move for scum to kill him because it would be very easy for his suggestion re:fruit to be forgotten in a game this loud that moves this fast.

so instead of bitching about mech talk, why don't we actually try to sort it out because it's clearly something that can be pro-town or pro-scum depending on how it's used, and I'd rather use it pro-town.

[Menalque]

I mean I imagine that pine has told you in the scumPT that I can get overemotional and tunnelled as town, fb, so I imagine he's told you that provoking me into a conflict that will eat up a lot of time and energy is a good idea

so as you're the one who's scum claimed by asking for governor fruit and giving literal confirmed scum a vote in exchange for it, I'm just gonna ignore you unless we get to a point where it looks like town might be stupid enough to not lynch you

[Menalque]

so instead of bitching about mech talk, why don't we actually try to sort it out because it's clearly something that can be pro-town or pro-scum depending on how it's used, and I'd rather use it pro-town.

you are actually awful but you're probably town.

all I do is try and sort this game but I'm consistently ignored/PoE'd.

you're not going to solve the mechanics by brute forcing them. that's the point of the setup. jingle and pine have too much pride to make this game be solvable by punching the mechanics button 100 times.

thanks

okay, so talk to me about why jjh's suggestion doesn't work as a solve on the mechanics then? it seems like conf!town chooses and if conf!scum doesn't like it then no-one gets it is probably the best EV for town

I'd also like to get this over with, so work with me on it

[Menalque]

actually all my scumreads arguing with each other in thread rn is strange.

u people need to not confuse me.

oh the irony

[Menalque]

Mastina is town so it's not a bus. She has like no agenda to her readslists. Even a town game plan seems barely discernible in them

Mastina why do you keep making it sound like N1 was all pine's doing when fypov ank hid behind scum?

Where do you get the impression I'm saying N1 was Pine's doing? My fuck this game isn't because of Pine, it's because of the fucking joke of protecting Ankamius fully expecting me to have saved her life only to be in for a NASTY surprise on D2. Pine had nothing to do with that which is why he gets the last laugh; it is specifically

because

he didn't orchestrate it that he gets to bust his guts laughing at the travesty. He literally couldn't have made a plan that good even if he was trying.

Okay, I'm confused.

Why are you so sure that pine would target ank on N1?

also, can anyone explain what should have happened if ank hid behind scum but also scum targeted her while she was being body guarded by Mastina? I really suck with NAR systems, but should Mastina not have died anyway?

[Menalque]

much as I would love to vote the duck, unless we're confident that FB is town (which honestly I don't see how anyone could be?) then we need to lynch him today.

(1) it's unconfirmed that the governor is self governing, so there's a possibility that we actually get it

(2) unless everyone hard TRs him, then do you really want a governor FB in potential lylo maybe tomorrow or maybe the next day?

[Menalque]

I really think this structure would be better if the fruit system were more rigorously codified, including what undisclosed effects the fruit could or could not have.

Better for Town, perhaps. It's something I control, not Ali. It's presented as fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Life and Death, what the hell did you expect?

Pine is literally giving fruit because it's pro-scum

Correction: I suggested this mechanic because it's FUN. Jingle insisted we make it balanced enough for Town to benefit.

Pine, can the governor fruit self-target?

@Jingle I could make an assumption, but can you confirm this?

Truth: Jingle confirmed by PM that the Governor can self-target.

I think pops was saying vig shots should be used on lurkers.

Yes but that's an arbitrary, synthetic distinction.

A real distinction is that Firebringer cannot be lynched today.

Yeah but if you don’t try, he’ll still have the governor protection going forward. Like I said, this fruit does NOT spoil if not used right away.

I choose not to answer whether the Governor fruit can self-govern, though Jingle has clarified it for me.

PE: I will give the fruit in Twilight, as promised, and it has a Twilight activation. It could plausibly be used this Twilight.

This is weird looking back. Idk if pine forgot that he'd confirmed already, or something else.

[Menalque]

much as I would love to vote the duck, unless we're confident that FB is town (which honestly I don't see how anyone could be?) then we need to lynch him today.

(1) it's unconfirmed that the governor is self governing, so there's a possibility that we actually get it

(2) unless everyone hard TRs him, then do you really want a governor FB in potential lylo maybe tomorrow or maybe the next day?

(1) It was confirmed.
(2) I can still be vigged.

much as I would love to vote the duck, unless we're confident that FB is town (which honestly I don't see how anyone could be?) then we need to lynch him today.

(1) it's unconfirmed that the governor is self governing, so there's a possibility that we actually get it

(2) unless everyone hard TRs him, then do you really want a governor FB in potential lylo maybe tomorrow or maybe the next day?

The governor fruit is lost in LyLo and I think it's possible he is anti-town town.

I think the fruit is -probably- selfgoverning and also he can be vigged.

right but do you wanna gamble on him "being possibly anti-town town" in lylo?

not to mention that if you think he's anti-town then we should be eliminating him from the game as soon as possible anyway. anti-town is generally indicative of scum.

[Menalque]

oh, I meant to respond to the first quote separately saying that actually, the vig's shots are bad enough that I could see it being a scum vig (as the duck/mastina both pointed out) and in that case we can't rely on you being vigged, the only thing we can rely on is lynching you

[Menalque]

if someone is playing to the scum win condition, then they should be lynched

this is the priority, because fb has the governor fruit and Mastina does not

we need to make a decision about fb today, not postpone it to a worse time

[Menalque]

pops I think your Mastina thing is really reachy and it's reading like an attempt to take the focus away from what we do with fb and put it onto Mastina instead

[Menalque]

jingle, does hider act before bodyguard in the NAR order?

[Menalque]

hey menalque I have a question from a while back that was bothering me

I think dann is the least scummy, but I don’t like his interactions with the others. I also feel like he could be TMIing with his read on me as town. Like, he’s getting it right, but idk if he’s playing up how strong the indicators are for town!me to hide the fact he knows I’m town and has also maybe been trying to pocket me

could you elaborate on this read on me a little more?

We just played a game where I accurately town read you when I feel quite a few players thought you were scummy. Your play seems similar here

I'm not sure how we get from there to I'm trying to pocket you, which honestly, what do I gain from pocketing you?

I can try to remember, but we've moved on a lot from there and you're not really on my radar atm.

Basically, several people (incl. now 2 conf!town) have SR me during the game. I felt like I hadn't done a lot that was particularly AI at the beginning of the game, but I think I was a TR/TL for you and that just felt a little early for me. I still don't like the duck, I was wrong on chicka, and Krazy idk, he's disappeared. But while I was wondering if you could all be a bloc of scum, I was thinking it would make sense for some people to push me/undermine me, but have one person TR me in case associatives came up later ("oh no, we weren't all on the same page -- look, dan was TR mena here while I/we SR him!")

Now, I think that was mistaken -- I think scum probably save me to try and push my mislynch later game.

I can't remember exactly what I didn't like about the interactions. If you're struggling with a read on me, I'll consider going back to look and figuring it out, but honestly it's a big game and I'd rather avoid doing that.

[Menalque]

jingle, does hider act before bodyguard in the NAR order?

I mean to oversimplify:
The list you see on the NAR page only applies if there is a conflict in role PMs.
There isn't conflict.
My bodyguard isn't "saves someone if they were to die", it's "saves someone if they were to be nightkilled". The distinction between the former and the latter is that the former protects against multiple methods of death whereas the latter only protects against the scum nightkill and the vig kill. I could not save Ank unless she were the target of the nightkill.

Ank's hider is straight-up "you die if you hide behind scum or someone who is nightkilled"; this death can't be saved.

But if you were to invoke the NAR list...

Copy

Hide

Bus Drive
Block
Redirect

Protect

Miscellaneous
Kill
Recruit
Inspect

yeah, cool, this is kinda what I wanted to check before I started to tentatively TR you. so your power would basically only ever apply to ank if she hadn't used her power, and that's super unlikely, so your BG never activated.

[Menalque]

Mastina

Stop repeating what I just said.

I mean, I appreciate it because afaik you're only sworn to tell the truth when it comes to fruit and there's no reason you wouldn't mislead me when it comes to NAR mechanics?

[Menalque]

which reads are you rethinking?

SS and Menalque rnow

Krazy to an extent

wanna jam with me as well then? why are you rethinking me?

[Menalque]

bringing us back to the pertinent question which is: do we want a governing FB in lylo?

[Menalque]

dann, where's the scum motivation for me to say "hmm, think dann's TR is a little too fast and that he could be part of a scum bloc" instead of just eating it up like a good lil scumbag who was being SR at the time and probably would have been looking for supporting voices? why do I risk alienating you?

what are the recent posts that bother you?

[Menalque]

bringing us back to the pertinent question which is: do we want a governing FB in lylo?

he can’t govern in lylo

oh, I misread the original fruit post

[Menalque]

We can’t lynch scum today btw

wait, why not?

[Menalque]

if we lynch scum and fire governs it then we have 2 conf!scum, no?

[Menalque]

Mastina

Stop repeating what I just said.

I mean, I appreciate it because afaik you're only sworn to tell the truth when it comes to fruit and there's no reason you wouldn't mislead me when it comes to NAR mechanics?

Why would I tell easily-disproved lies? That just makes me a dick.

I don't think you would in normal circumstances, but I feel like you might here because the game moves so fast that people might miss it if they weren't the specific person looking for the answer?

[Menalque]

dann, where's the scum motivation for me to say "hmm, think dann's TR is a little too fast and that he could be part of a scum bloc" instead of just eating it up like a good lil scumbag who was being SR at the time and probably would have been looking for supporting voices? why do I risk alienating you?

well, I wouldn't really take issue with it if it was just a direct scum read so much

Instead it was kind a fencesitty "he's not that scummy but um he could be scum" and the reason you listed for it did not sit well with me. It's like you wanted to agree with that scum block theory but didn't want to outright scum read me—and thus alienate me ig

I'm still town reading you for the most part, you're just in my bin of names of people I'm in the process of revisiting because I sort of tossed them in one pile or another D1 for ease of playing this large of a game

yeah, that's fair. the problem is that I was really in two minds as I think I said at the time: that either (1) the consensus was right and we were more or less going in the right direction after lynching lld in which case I should just trust that bloc and go with it or (2) the lld lynch was intentionally set up by pine to give the right people towncred later in the game so we wouldn't question why they were still alive, a worry bolstered by the fact that I

know

lld is known for a strong scum game and I found it somewhat implausible that we'd have caught her that early on

also, I think you could give me a little credit: I don't think scum!me would be so blatantly fence sitty. I think in my scum games I've tended towards picking a line and hard pushing; for me, indecision and doubt is town!indicative

the other thing that's changed since then is that Added to the Group Chat finished, and that was with some of the same players here (Pine, SS, PB, PP, sky for most of it) and honestly this game was kinda intimidating to come into given how well most people know each other and how new I am compared to pretty much everyone

the fact that I've had two games finish recently where I got scum right on D1 both times (pine in one, skitt in another) has given me a bit of a confidence boost, and it's why I've been digging my teeth in more since EoD yesterday because I kinda feel more like I should be here

you revisiting me makes sense, and I think I'm TRing you now because I think I was just being paranoid before. if you wanna hit me up over any other stuff, go for it

[Menalque]

dann can you talk to me some more about why I should TR the duck?

[Menalque]

dann can you talk to me some more about why I should TR the duck?

I think it's better if you talk about your scum read first

My read is colored by meta and certain expectations of his play

Chickadee had an issue where she said she just liked duck too much to really have a confident objective read on him, even though she thought he was town.

You may or may not be more objective than me in this instance, but I'd like not to color the problems you see before you put them into words if that makes sense

okay, that's fair. I'm not doing it tonight because I'm getting sleepy and it'll involve going back through his ISO. I do remember that it was partly due to me thinking his reaction over my speculation about you/chicka/him/krazy was weird, plus I think quite a lot of AtE stuff.

I'm not working right now (week's break between contracts) so hit me up tomorrow if I don't get to it

[Menalque]

I think it's better if you talk about your scum read first

My read is colored by meta and certain expectations of his play

:thumbs_up:
this is why I keep laughing off your read Mena

hmm?

[Menalque]

okay, that's fair. I'm not doing it tonight because I'm getting sleepy and it'll involve going back through his ISO. I do remember that it was partly due to me thinking his reaction over my speculation about you/chicka/him/krazy was weird, plus I think quite a lot of AtE stuff.

put like @Dannflor in your post or something so I can control+F to find it because I'm skimming an increasing amount of posts this game

yeah, okay, will do

@duckie didn't I promise that in twilight?

[Menalque]

yo Mastina when did your SR on ank turn into a TR?

(the worst, if you're not enjoying this game and it's partly due to things like me incorrectly SRing you (if that is the case) then I'm actually legit sorry if we're both town. I've been trying to handle you with a certain degree of brevity as I don't really know you that well, but maybe it's been coming off badly.

if you're not enjoying the game because you're scum and I'm SRing you then I'm still sorry you aren't enjoying it but less so for my part in it. I hate doing this during the game because you don't really know if I'm being sincere, but I don't lie with regard to these types of things, and I'll confirm that post-game if you have any doubts)

[Menalque]

i need to go work. dannflor/menaphos, you're common sense officers in my absence.

pedit: thank you. dw you're not causing me any direct discomfort. the thing i disliked the most that you did was the "if you're not enjoying the mechtalk then help me solve the mechtalk!!!" thing because it just showed a resounding lack of original thought. i'm enjoying the rest of your posting today.

you're welcome. okay, that's good. I hate mechtalk so that probably came through, and is prob why there wasn't much original thought -- I just wanted to see if we could get some agreement on jjh's solution being good and then move on once that was done.

also, am I menaphos?

and lastly, idk if I SR you anymore, but when I go through I'm gonna post why I was SRing you at that prior point as best as I can remember.

my main concern is that I think I TR both duck and Mastina rn but idk whether or not this can all be TvT or not

[Menalque]

i need to go work. dannflor/menaphos, you're common sense officers in my absence.

pedit: thank you. dw you're not causing me any direct discomfort. the thing i disliked the most that you did was the "if you're not enjoying the mechtalk then help me solve the mechtalk!!!" thing because it just showed a resounding lack of original thought. i'm enjoying the rest of your posting today.

you're welcome. okay, that's good. I hate mechtalk so that probably came through, and is prob why there wasn't much original thought -- I just wanted to see if we could get some agreement on jjh's solution being good and then move on once that was done.

also, am I menaphos?

and lastly, idk if I SR you anymore, but when I go through I'm gonna post why I was SRing you at that prior point as best as I can remember.

my main concern is that I think I TR both duck and Mastina rn but idk whether or not this can all be TvT or not

why not?
and yeah you're menaphos.

groovy, I like being a city, so many people inside of me

why it can't be TvT? the extent to which you're going after each other and accusing the other of misreps etc.

plus just on a personal level I've SR and TL both of you throughout and idk, I think in TvT I would've felt more like that's what it was from earlier on? the fact that I've been thinking in both cases that either of you could be scum (although I kinda doubt bussing? seems too genuine) makes me think there are genuinely scummy things in both of you so far this game.

but now I'm wondering if TvT is possible and you're just picking up on those things instead of looking at the things that are towny in the other?

it's also kinda fuckin with me that my SRs here were earlier on, and I think often my early reads are better than later ones which have been manipulated by scum, plus a bunch of other people SRing both of you but very few people thinking you're scum together

[Menalque]

mastina, why, given that ank is considered such a strong scumplayer, did you think that pine didn't draft just draft her first? who did you think he would draft ahead of her and why were you confident enough that said person would be a higher draft pick for pine that it would make ank town?

[Menalque]

Well that day ended quite awkwardly. I honestly have no idea why DGB would suicide like that as town. It's quite depressing to have mislynched DGB for the first time in my life.

Anyone who thinks LLD/GI D1 was scum v scum need to reevaluate their social skills.

In no world does GI ever torture his own wife as scumbuddies.

I think xof was scum.

VOTE: SS

well apart from the fact that if they were SvS then the whole thing was just scum theatre?

I really don't like any of this post. the DGB stuff is screaming LAMIST, and then the defence of GI when there hasn't even really been any action there beyond vaguely considering it seems preemptive. Then the SS vote based on the 'xof was scummy' justification. Like, don't get me wrong, I could see SS scum. But based on his own content. Pushing the slot for only xof's posts/interactions and ignoring all the stuff SS has done since then seems weird to me as town who I'd expect to wanna sort the slot the best possible which means considering more information to make a more informed decision. Also only turning up after being called out for being absent.

[Menalque]

VOTE: pops

[Menalque]

I think pops' argument is shit and is intentionally missing the point

[Menalque]

Another way to look at it that maybe has a more down to earth angle is that it's very offtune that she was excited and tooting her horn about being an extremely viable N1 kill as bodyguard when bodyguard is a roll that makes it way less exciting to be an extremely viable N1 kill, less exciting than VT.

Outright false; I never said I'd be the N1 nightkill and in fact explicitly said otherwise--I am never the N1 nightkill but if I die N1 to a successful protection as a bodyguard, I wouldn't be able to tell the town this postmortem and I wouldn't be able to tell the town that premortem either without giving away the fact that I am a bodyguard (thus ensuring a successful protection isn't possible).

Thus, if I was playing protown.

Which is what I was aiming to do D1.

Then it would inherently be ambiguous to the town.

And that ambiguity, which I've explained why it's a fucking good thing and which you've repeatedly fucking ignored, is not antitown; it is incredibly protown.

Ambiguity
To the town
Is protown
I can't even

like, the argument is not that ambiguity to the town is protown

the argument is that being as protown as possible causes ambiguity to the town

I don't think pops is a bad player or incapable of seeing subtleties like this, so I think she' intentionally misrepping Mastina

if I'm wrong tell me where?

[Menalque]

VOTE: krazy

[Menalque]

VOTE: mastina
pops goes tomorrow if this is a mislynch.

yeah but if Mastina is town which I think she is then I don't wanna lynch her at all

I certainly don't wanna lynch her bc fire took a governor fruit and for information reasons

[Menalque]

why are u2 voting krazy

because I think Mastina is town and fb is going to govern two of the other main people I'd be interested in voting (pops, SS)

so I'd rather do Krazy than Mastina and that's on the allowed list

[Menalque]

@jingle, could you prod/replace ico please?

[Menalque]

why are u2 voting krazy

because I think Mastina is town and fb is going to govern two of the other main people I'd be interested in voting (pops, SS)

so I'd rather do Krazy than Mastina and that's on the allowed list

okay but why tho

because I looked back at her D1 ISO briefly and it seems consistent with someone giving content that helps town -- posting reads, crumbing a role to use on ank

also, I think her logic has been pretty clear on what she's been trying to do and I think pops' push has been in bad faith based on something that was reachy and poor logic

I don't think I see pops and Mastina scum, but I also don't read it as TvT, so choosing there I'm getting to Mastina!town

and krazy isn't terrible, but he's not good either from what I remember, so I'm okay with going there as a compromise to not mislynch Mastina

[Menalque]

oh, actually, I'd also like to talk about Kats.

it was just that krazy was the first person who wasn't Mastina who fb confirmed as not getting governed after dann asked

[Menalque]

Quite honestly I think the faster this day ends the better it will be for town.

As in, before we can confirm whether or not other people are still even playing? There are multiple replace outs and dead players who have posted more recently than ico. I don't wanna end the day until it's confirmed if he's still playing or not and that slot actually does something because I don't wanna be having to try and decide in lylo if it's ico trying to lurk to a win or just not being around.

I don't think that town!you actually believes this. I can possibly see town!you being frustrated and seeing a lot of the negativity in the game and saying it anyway. I'd like you to pause and consider this before going on. Same about the self-vote.

[Menalque]

I want out of the game and to never touch a mafia game ever again to be honest

Ali I really like you and this is our first game together, pls don't replace out, maybe just take some time to chill and come back in a few hours/tomorrow?

I'm going to sleep now please don't speedlynch anyone while I'm gone.

[Menalque]

you haven't ruined the game for me, Ali, and I don't think you're an awful person at all

I do think you and fire could both use some time off to chill out, but I'm still having fun

I bet a lot of people here are

[Menalque]

@mastina, Krazy

What are your reads on kat?

[Menalque]

Mena, whats your Pink Ball read?

I really want him to be town, but it's pretty much null to null!scum.

I wanna engage with him more before I get a stronger read, but I do remember thinking that his explanation for his progression wrt my slot made sense from town!him more than scum!him as he could prob have just pocketed me if he was scum and I don't really see the benefit from him in making me suspect him? Because I'd suspect him late game either way if we were both there, so why wouldn't he just take the free bonus TR?

On the other hand, I can see scum!PB emulating stuff he did that made me TR him in pfup even if he's not been engaging with me as much here (like the appreciation page) and I also don't like the way he came in with his Mastina posts. If Mastina happens anyway today and flips red then I think he's all good. But if Mastina ever flipped green then I agree that he looks really opportunistic.

@mastina, I meant more like, could you explain your Kats read?

@everyone, I know that I'm as culpable as the rest for yesterday, but y'all did another 10 pages in the 8-9 hours I was a sleep, so maybe bear in mind Jingle's post asking us to slow down a bit?

[Menalque]

I also think 1 scum in (mastina, PB) seems likely

SS, you’re scumreading me, correct? Want to talk about it?

[Menalque]

I also think 1 scum in (mastina, PB) seems likely

SS, you’re scumreading me, correct? Want to talk about it?

Err I may be coming around a bit

You just felt really stilted in your interactions with me like you were trying to justify a read rather than dynamically evaluate what I was doing.

Could you give me an example of where you think I was doing this?

I think I was very fair to you. I didn’t SR you off xof like most people were, but I didn’t like your entrance today. For instance, saying you were out of your scumrange when I just saw you play a very good deepwolf scumgame. I also thought that your speculation about trying to grab the fruit was potentially scummy in the same way that I thought FB’s actual bargain to get the fruit was scummy (which I still do think ftr, but I’m less concerned although not entirely unconcerned now that I’ve realised it won’t work in lylo).

I also disliked the stuff after fb put you back on the table as a potential lynch where you were getting frustrated and asking if you should self-vote. Now, I know that was genuine frustration from you. But can you not see how town!me unsure of your slot from before would think that it could be scum!you frustrated at repping into a slot that was looking likely to get lynched regardless of what you were doing and trying to AtE your way out of it?

[Menalque]

You're a good pick from his perspective

So I can clearly not choose the penguin in front of me!

But penguins come from Antarctica which, as everyone knows, is entirely populated by criminal seabirds! And as criminal seabirds are used to not having people trust them, I can clearly not choose the penguin in front of you!

[Menalque]

So FB and SS are both scum, cool

Where was the town motivation to grab the fruit there, either of you go ahead and try to explain that to me?

Menalque this is a good example of what I was talking about.

What about it? Ali had very, very explicitly said that no-one should ask for the governor fruit what, like a page before this?

Given that Ali was, at the time, the only person who was conf!town to me, it seems odd to then go against her wishes before we discussed it as a group. I think maybe you're reading the tone here as odd, but I think I very often post things that are overconfident in terms of reads in the heat the heat of the moment when I'm reacting to something.

I do still think that it is an ongoing anti-town thing to bargain for fruit without Ali's approval, but everyone seems to be shitting all over that so it can't uniquely be scum doing it. Like, I get it, asking for fruit is fun and people wanna have fun. But I'd also like to win, and so people should stop doing this so we can discern scummy fruit requests from greedy/dumb town requests.

[Menalque]

Okay, let me rephrase: I think concretely going against what the conf!town wants is anti-town and I think being anti-town is scummy. So beyond odd.

[Menalque]

Being overtly anti-town is not scummy, except in cases where you're clearly acting with no regard to the town wincon. Both town and scum are well aware of how such an action will be perceived and choosing it anyway weighs out the superficial harm it brings to town.

It's kind of a pointless argument, though. I certainly believe that you believed it was scummy. Many people do.

Only I think that because of the WIFOM involved in "too scummy to be scum" scum totally can be down to just do it anyway and try to get by off that. And I think that governor is something scum would particularly want to have because it lets them dictate a lynch potentially.

I would lean towards saying that if someone is playing openly anti-town you should just lynch them hard and early every game that they do that in. I see no reason to let someone actively work towards the other team's wincon stay in the game. If you like socialising with them, cool, there are spaces where they can express their personality outside of games in other places in the forum. I think playing like that in game should be punished because it's actively fucking things up for everyone else.

Incidentally, this is the same reason that I think that lolhammers on town should nearly always be lynched the next day. If you don't do it, then scum can get away with doing it because it becomes something to just be shrugged off/tolerated.

In fact, I don't really love that fb has had as much of a pass on this as he's had, the more I think about it. If he's scum, would he potentially not make a deal on the fruit, hide behind the too scummy to be scum/oh that's just fb logic, and then put forward a bunch of town that would be lynchable, knowing that we couldn't lynch him until lylo anyway, and trusting in his ability to stir up paranoia about us losing the game if he's lynched in lylo to try and spin it elsewhere.

[Menalque]

I will say that the deal that PP has made with pine is one of the best things to happen to this thread in spite of it being anti-town though.

[Menalque]

I think I’m still voting Krazy? Like I don’t remember inviting him

@jingle

Also can anyone tell me if anything important happened over the last like ~16 pages? I’ll catch up tomorrow but just so I know roughly what’s happening

[Menalque]

Oh, right

VOTE: krazy

[Menalque]

Man, sure would be a shame if someone squandered that page 300 pagetop

[Menalque]

Asking again: can someone catch me up on roughly what’s happened the last ~28 pages?

[Menalque]

Ari despied SS idk if you saw thqt
Fireb is still Fireb
Maria is starting to post with a discernible agenda
Alisae endorsed lynching Fireb last night
Fireb AtE'd
Now people are voting chennisden who is still doing sweet fuck all

Did fb pick up steam before he AtE’d? Also was it more the AtE or the governor that stopped him?

@maria you wanna vote mastina, correct? Who else?

[Menalque]

Also, I mean I thought mastina was town from earlier on, so if I ISO them it’ll be more to see if I get town v town vibes from krazy