Micro 892: TemporalLich's Micro Normal [Game Over]

[Menalque]

Ahhh, another edition of that fun game “is icon actually scum or just mislynch bait”

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The entire interaction between Bella and Klick is off

Why?

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Or is the entirety of the reason just 47?

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i know i know it definitely sounds like RVS shenanigans and some good ones at that

a dragon's gotta start somewhere

also, scum!Datisi 100% follows my thoughts and jumps onto Bella

so we are both town

Why do you think this?

[Menalque]

Datisi can be town. Her sorting feels genuine.

PEdit: Hi Menalque. Do you have an opinion on that question yet?

Which one?

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Also, hi klick

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Datisi can be town. Her sorting feels genuine.

PEdit: Hi Menalque. Do you have an opinion on that question yet?

And it’s far too early to townbin datisi, she plays a very strong scum game

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Sorry, I need to remember people's names better.

@menalqe, why is klick's tr on datisi different to ice's?

Klick is saying that datisi is sorting which seems true but I’m saying that her scumgame is strong enough that she should be read with that in mind. Yes, sorting is good, but not to townbin her too fast which is what I did last game

Ico is saying that datisi would sheep him which is pretty obviously opportunistic and I’d like to know why he thinks someone who I respect the scumgame of would make a move that open

[Menalque]

Datisi can be town. Her sorting feels genuine.

PEdit: Hi Menalque. Do you have an opinion on that question yet?

Which one?

Is Icon scum here, or mislynch bait? Which way are you leaning so far?

It’s page 3 fam, I’m not sure yet

It depends on whether the shit he was doing today was to confuse the gsmestate and get us arguing about things we should ignore and is anti-town, or if it was to speed us out of RVSwhich is pro-town

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The entire interaction between Bella and Klick is off

Why?

47 indeed

I kinda like this from him tho, bc I think scum would feel more pressured to try and actually try and justify their read rather than hand wave it as “ehh, it felt off” especially after getting called on it for further explanation/clarification twice

[Menalque]

Either way a readslist on page 8 is troubling*

@Bella, how is Icon one of your confident reads now? You said earlier you can't read him well, and 144 doesn't seem that sure either? (also I can't see the colors either rip)

@Dong, why is a readslist on page

7

8 bad "either way"?

because it is filler. She provided no good basis on any of her reads and ultimately ended with a everyone null basis on post 144, so the reads in 150 may as well be made up on the spot. It provides no content and doesnt have context to back it up.

Im fine with labelling all of chemists posts as NAI. Given that there are 9 anyways.
Chemist, what do you think about bellas readlist?
Do you have a readlist yourself?

I don’t like these posts

(1) nothing wrong with a readslist early on, and there’s nothing inherently AI about whether all the reads are explained in the initial post or not, so trying to suggest there is something AI there is scummy

(2) if a readslist page 8 is scummy, why are you asking chem for one? That just doesn’t make sense to me but equally this does give me a little pause because scum care more about making sense I think

(3) this should be 1 prob but I’m on my phone and can’t be fucked to edit as I’m a bit drunk too — I don’t think the first and second quote fit together? Like the first one is just that a readslist is bad to do this early. Then it’s that her particular readslist is bad because it’s unexplained and “filler”. I don’t think those comments come from the same place, I think the first one was made to throw shade, the second was made as a reasonable sounding explanation for the first one, but actually the underlying motivation for it doesn’t line up

VOTE: dong

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could you poke heaven pls mod, I don’t think they’ve posted yet

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could you confirm if they’ve picked up their role PM or no?

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Yup, wording problems. It is bad in that bella clearly has no concrete reads on anyone she reads yet put out one anyway, and that was more what i was trying to insuniate, page 8 was early and she didnt seem to have strong reads so putting out a readslist was an eyebrow raiser. I did a readslist too, so i dont think its inherently wrong but making one when youre on the fence is fluff.

Same deal with chem, i asked IF he had a readslist, if he didnt i wouldnt wamt him forcing one out.

I don't think this is a good argument. I think readslists are generally pretty good and useful. Yes, changes will happen, and are more likely to happen if you're null on people. But they let you chart the stated progression. If someone goes from null to a hard TR on someone or vice versa, but the other person only makes like 1 post in the interim then the progression makes no sense and it's much more likely a made up progression, ie. scum!indicative.

and you can't just say "a realist is bad page 7/8

either way

" then just go "no, I was really saying it's bad because of the context". that doesn't fit with what you've actually posted, and I don't think it's an effective argument to just claim that what you meant by your post is different to what's actually implied by them.

I don't like the trying to shade my analysis just because I was a bit drunk, I often play when I've had a couple, and sometimes it makes me think stupid shit that I then have to reconsider, but a lot of the time it doesn't make a huge difference or it frees me up to see things differently. either way, if my analysis is bad, you should be arguing the same, not just saying it's bad because I'd had a few.

and I don't like your explanation re: chem either. I think the way in which you asked him implies that you wanted him to give a readslist. If you're calling someone out on not having done stuff, and following up a question that is directly asking them to provide content ("what do you think of Bella's readslist?") then the normal implication to draw is that you want a readslist provided from him.

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I’m not totally sold on dong!scum yet, he might convince me out of it

But I think that the inconsistencies he’s got and the way he’s approaching things are more likely to come from a scum!mindset than a town!mindset

Like I think town just owns up to saying that the first thing they said was wrong? Rather than makes a post that tries to spin it into being something cohesive

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Still, rewrite your fucking post.

If you're not doing it im assuming that you dont want me to read you properly

, and if thats the case i'll rip into its every single contradiction. Also you would then be accusing me of the same stubbornness you display.

What are you even saying here? I stand by the content in the post even if the formatting is a little off, so if you think it’s filled with contradictions go ahead and “rip into its every single contradiction”.

The same stubbornness I display? Where am I being stubborn?

Not to mention there’s a whole other post expanding on my initial points that I made today, so just look at that.

If you don’t wanna hammer today because you’re in a bad mood then that’s groovy, let’s do it tomorrow. But then maybe don’t immediately follow that up with a demand to “rewrite [my] fucking post” if you actually wanna keep the game civil.

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If you don’t wanna jam*

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I think I want to lynch in [Chemist, Locke, Heaven, Icon] today.

Do you think one scum or two in that group?

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I’d lynch in dong/icon atm

Dong, waiting to hear back from you on why I’m wrong about those posts being bad/scummy

Icon, he was around early game and then kinda disappeared? So I feel like that could have been busy work trying to get himself credit for the activity even while I don’t think a lot of his play was really driving the game forward. On the flip side, icon has a rep for being mislynch bait and that makes me hesitant, plus in my only encounter with scum!icon he was trying a lot harder to actively create a fucked up gamestate whereas here he’s just,.. not here?

Now I think about it. I don’t love the fact that dong is TRing icon based on early stuff, not datisi having him in “do not lynch” based on the content he’s provided so far

Also fwiw I lean town on chem? He hasn’t done a lot, but I think he’s done some stuff without really being under pressure yet — and that reminds me more of pfup where he was town, rather than ruby where he was scum and only did anything when he was under pressure from town. I think he’s another player who’s quite easy to mislynxh, so is rather not go here today because I think he’ll become increasingly easy to sort as the game goes on

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Nor datisi*

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Also in regard to 83 and 84, not sure how you come out with TRing Bella over Klick? I don't find the posts you listed in 84 as particularly scummy. Also, while both their posting at the start of the day was null-ish, I don't think Bella's further posting has been especially great.

I dont tr bella, nor do i sr klick. I'm going through the motions, i think saying that i have strong reads on either would be stretching it right now. I do have a townread on ico however.

I mentioned bella because in the Bellaxklick discussion i thought she was by far acting more genuine compared to klick.

Not gonna fly with just saying the last posts are bad, provide examples if you want this cart rolling.

I think this post is particularly towny in context. After saying I was scummy, Dong clarifies that it doesn't have a scumread on me - Dong just saw a singular scummy event that didn't paint an overall picture of Dong's read on me.
That feels like insight into Dong's mindset that Dong!scum doesn't bother to make.

Klick can you talk to me more about that last sentence?

Because I’d say this is fairly NAI? Like it’s approaching things with a pretty open mind which could be townie because the uncertainty is genuine, or it could be scum fence sitting and waiting to see where the chips fall while giving the option to get on either of them later

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Oh, and last point: I kinda doubt that there’s two scum in (locke, heaven, chem, icon) because that would mean that if we kept going that way we’d have a 50/50 on lynching scum D1 which is almost always a loss in a micro and I feel like there hasn’t particularly been a push to lead the game away from that pool

So I think prob only 1 scum in that group

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I’m moving country today so don’t expect me to be around much but jfc are dong’s posts bad;

Re 245 I explicitly said that the problem with the statement about early readslist not being valuable is wrong

regardless of whether the reads are explained or not

meaning that I clearly am referencing the context, so suggesting I’m “picking and choosing” to crate a narrative is a straight up misrep

You shaded someone for an early readslist with the justification that an early readslist needs concrete reasons to be valuable for sorting. The fact that the second point there is patently false (because, again, it doesn’t matter if an early readslist is explained because it’s still gonna be useful in charting progressions). And your argument later is that you didn’t shade her because you... explained your logic? If your logic is shit then it’s still shade because you’re trying to make someone look bad for a shit reason, which is literally exactly what shade is.

Regarding chem’s readslist, I think the way you asked implied that you were asking him for a readslist. Now who’s ignoring context? You’d literally just called someone out for posting their readslist that’s unexplained and then you’re like “hey, got a readslist?” to a player who hasn’t done a lot. Are you actually so socially unaware that it sounds like you want an affirmative answer there?

Then re 246 pretty sure chem didn’t have a wagon going on him at the time and I genuinely can’t remember if you were even voting him? If there aren’t votes, the pressure isn’t real, period. Why do you think I voted you? Because I wasn’t sure at the time, I just didn’t like the stuff you’d posted for reasons given and voting you was a way to make it real and get a reaction. Your reaction is bad enough that I’m now thinking I was right and you are just scum

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I wouldn’t say I’m engaged no

Chemist you're getting high on my shitlist and im gonna policy lynch you soon, we shouldnt have to TELL you to play

Also this is real fucking scummy

You bury a nice little comment backing a lynch on chem

Then you make a ‘case’ on me and vote me

Like if chem!town then this is just obvious distancing from the mislynch while still showing you’re okay with it (tbf I take it back if chem is the lynch for today and he flips scum) — also, before you say I’m misrepping: I know you said “policy lynch”. But guess what, that doesn’t matter because it’s still supporting the same outcome.

Also the timing of the post. It’s immediately before you make a case for me and start trying to put attention there to distract from your soft pushing of chem

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@klick re: 247

Idk I may need to revisit ruby because obviously that game I was scum with him so I was seeing his actions from scum!perspectice and not town!perspective as I was in pfup. I would have compromised on chem, but I thing dong is being actively scummy in a way that chem is not, and the way he’s been softing chem throughout the day but thhen switched to pushing me is pinging me hard as I think that’s more like setting chem to be mislynched while he’s off!lynch

Re: dong making 97 as scum... I don’t see why not? Like he doesn’t read to me as someone who overcurates his posts and so I don’t see why that phrasing is alignment indicative? I can see scum!dong just imagining who he might be reading early on and trying to mimic his town phrasing as much as possible. I guess it’s slightly more likely to come from town, but not enough to outweigh everything since then and I don’t think it’s enough to base an overall read on which is kinda what it seems like you’re doing here? Or at least that it’s the most important part of that read

I just don’t think scum puts themselves in the situation where there’s a 50% chance at random that they get hit by the lynch. I mean, I think dong is scum and chem is town by associationals, so 1 scum in heaven!slot, ico, Locke seems plausible.

If I’m wrong on dong or chemist then I think Locke is plausible bc he’s the only one who I think was trying to make himself look actively towny. Which, yes, could come from town not wanting to be mislynched but I think scum are more motivated to avoid a mislynch generally

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Icon, he was around early game and then kinda disappeared? So I feel like that could have been busy work trying to get himself credit for the activity even while I don’t think a lot of his play was really driving the game forward. On the flip side, icon has a rep for being mislynch bait and that makes me hesitant, plus in my only encounter with scum!icon he was trying a lot harder to actively create a fucked up gamestate whereas here he’s just,.. not here?

Now I think about it. I don’t love ... datisi having him in “do not lynch” based on the content he’s provided so far

?

Sure, some of his posts are fluff, but I feel like I can see genuine sorting there as well.

Also, you call him scummy for his activity (which is a Bad reason, btw), but then in the same breath call him possible mislynch bait and say that this game doesn't fit within his scum meta?

Okay, where, show me the genuine sorting? Cause I think that’s someone who wants to look like they’re sorting but who doesn’t really care about the interactions

And... yes, I have a view which thinks ico is plausible as scum but that view incorporates some things which make me unsure? And it’s not because of his activity, so much as it is the timing of his activity. Early play that looks like sorting but which I don’t think actually did a lot, followed by a very significant drop off looks a lot like scum trying to draw off early TRs then lurk it out

[Menalque]

If Heaven is scum, when is a more appropriate time to lynch them?
If Heaven is town and continues at this level of activity, how are we going to avoid mislynching them later?

I think Menalque is trying to control the narrative of the game in a way that is NAI at the moment. I felt a bit odd early on about him shutting down my Datisi townread, but his explanation for it was reasonable and I can see it coming from town. His push on you is logical. Overall he's giving lots of content we can use to help read him later on, and I don't have sufficient reason to want to lynch him today.

Curious about what you think I was doing up to that point that was trying to control the game narrative, particularly compared to others. Like I haven’t had enough time to post here to really try and control the narrative I don’t think.

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Lynching a singular scum isnt the end goal, its a means to an end to lynch both of them, that is our single wincon. I've seen many games with a day 1 scum lynch that end on a 3p lylo.
What i want to do today is get a lynch thats fruitfull enough that we dont end up struggling on the coming days, and rushing a heaven lynch, whatever he ends up flipping, will do just that.

Thing about menal is hes posting just enough content to seem like hes advancing but if you look at the content they are hollow and impartial, and that says to me that he has an agenda.

This is more bad logic. I don’t think lynching scum D1 is ever, ever bad for town in a micro. Yes, it can lead to 3p lylo but generally town still has a massive advantage in figuring shit out (esp if there’s any power at all) and if they can’t then they deserve to lose

Lynching for associatives is terrible because, guess what, this is a mixed information game. Scum are always gonna have more control over associatives than town, so they’ll always have more power to set those up. So just lynch scum and figure out the other bit later

So the post is scummy because it’s advancing a line of thought which looks like it’s trying to be helpful while actually advancing bad ideas that are anti-town

Also, yes, obviously I have an agenda? Every player here has an agenda. In this case, mine is to find scum and lynch them and yours is to mislynch town. And either my content is hollow and impartial, or I’m actively misrepping what you’ve said and trying to get you mislynched. That’s clearly not hollow/impartial. You can’t have it both ways depending on what’s convenient for the line you’re peddling at the time

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@locke honestly, my chem townlean before the associationals from dong which is now prob the larger part was basically from 101 and 197

I’m not sure that scum!chem doesn’t make either of those, but the first one just reminds me of chem from pfup where to the extent that he was solvy I think it was more from little questions than from trying to have a big impact on gsmestate, whereas I don’t think he did that until he was under pressure in ruby

And I think with 197 I liked that he called out the fact that dong tries to just dismiss my argument rather than really engaging with it. This Could him buddying me tho I guess, but I just didn’t really feel WK’d I felt more that he was just pinged and trying to understand dong’s response more because he was pinged by it

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Oh hi kori, what’s up

mod, VLA until Wednesday evening pls

I’ll be around but I need the leeway until I finish this move

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Menalq how are you townreading chemist exactly?

Are you caught up?

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Can someone who is TRing dong explain what I’m missing? He literally comes out of the gates with an effort to discredit my initial thoughts on him (the thing about me being drunk) rather than try to explain he insists that I’m misrepping him

If you don’t think I’m misrepping, and this is to everyone professing a townread on dong, why do you think it’s in good faith that he believes in misrepping him?

And then you just have a nonstop process since then where rather than actually case me, he’s constantly evading engaging with what I’m posting, look at last page. There’s no effort there to actually explain what’s wrong with what I’m saying, it’s just a process of picking at semantics — for example, “I think it’s never ever bad for town to lynch scum D1” is something he quotes out of context to say I’m just pushing my opinion rather than being logical. But that’s completely ignoring everything else around it

Then he tries to excuse not engaging properly by saying that’s a trap. This is just scum not wanting to get involved because he knows that he’s gonna look worse and worse the more he actually engages and his reasons don’t add up

Also @klick and @datisi I’m p sure I’m waiting to hear back from both of you regarding questions form page 12

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@klick I would strongly prefer a dong lynch to an icon lynch but I would rather go icon over chem

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Chem if you’re around how are you reading dong and why do you think icon is more likely scum than him?

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You entirely ignored 291 and 292 and your response to 296 was literally just taking things out of context and claiming there was no logic there at all

So you know

I’d like it if you’d respond to the posts that I made about you being scum rather than just ignoring them or misrepping the arguments being made

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Also the fact that you’re just so fucking desperate to try and frame this as me just saying “dong bad” which you literally won’t shut the fuck up about

But instead of giving reasons for why that’s all my content is saying, you just keep repeating the same thing

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Also the fact that you’re just so fucking desperate to try and frame this as me just saying “dong bad” which you literally won’t shut the fuck up about

But instead of giving reasons for why that’s all my content is saying, you just keep repeating the same thing

Desperate for... what exactly?
I know that this town isnt even fucking voting you, so all i can try to do is shout a bit so people reconsider giving your smelling posts another chance and see how fucking atrocious those are.
I dont need to be townread, i dont care about being townread in either my town or scum meta, i just do whatever i like, so not desperate for that either.
so what exactly am i desperate about?
And yes, your posts are "dong bad." pure and simplified. They constantly view my posts in bad faith, turn everything i do, as towny motivated as they may be into hitlers cum, and lay traps so that if i even attempt to respond to them i'll be seen in a worse light. Dont expect me to respect your posts simply because they are addressed to me. I honestly couldnt give less of a shit, i know that responding to those will only make you spout further shit and the circlejerk will continue. If anyone here was willing to reason, they would have pages ago.

Desperate to make it look like I haven’t actually posted anything beyond “dong bad” jfc

And then refusing to actually explain why because I’m somehow simultaneously openwolfing and laying a million traps that are so plain as day that everyone else MUST be scum because they don’t see them despite the fact that if that’s actually what I’m doing it should be very easy to explain that to everyone?

But you can’t because you know that that’s not what I’m doing, that my posts haven’t been in bad faith because I’ve been trying to actually engage you ever since I first started talking to you and all I’ve been met with is you trying to dismiss whatever I’ve said and then acting like my SR on you must be because I’m scum rather than that you’ve given me no reason to fucking TR you whatsoever since then

And now you’re rushing to push chem through to try and end the day before anyone can see how scummy you are.

I’ll try my best to leave this alone for a while if this is killing the thread, but @all but especially @klick if you think the toxicity is killing the thread and that it’s mostly coming from dong where is the town motivation for kicking the apathy here into high gear?

Dong’s made it p clear that he’s not willing to meaningfully engage with anything I post but for those TRing him after all this genuinely I don’t get it and I wanna talk about it

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This wagon on me is incredibly lazy and everyone knows it but no one wants to admit it

Hi you’re right I don’t exist in this thread and haven’t posted at all

Talk to me about dong

[Menalque]

UNVOTE:

Your play still sucks but I guess this does explain why you were behaving so flagrantly scummy without giving a shit

@locke it doesn’t work because the masons are conf town so they’ll be killed tonight and tomorrow

So if they were both alive by lylo you’d know that they were scum p much

I guess theoretically actual scum could not NK them in the hopes that they get through to 5p lylo and then try to sway the masons onto the other remaining townie but it’s a very, very long shot and if the scum get lynched on D1 or D2 before that then they have to start killing the masons or they’re at a major disadvantage in 3p lylo

[Menalque]

I need to reread/re-evaluate this whole game

I’m sorry it got as fired up as it did but I maintain that I don’t think I was misrepping you/setting up traps for you etc and I don’t see how you got there from my play.

Like I said I need to reread but if you wanna talk about it now that also works

[Menalque]

If Heaven is scum, when is a more appropriate time to lynch them?
If Heaven is town and continues at this level of activity, how are we going to avoid mislynching them later?

I think Menalque is trying to control the narrative of the game in a way that is NAI at the moment. I felt a bit odd early on about him shutting down my Datisi townread, but his explanation for it was reasonable and I can see it coming from town. His push on you is logical. Overall he's giving lots of content we can use to help read him later on, and I don't have sufficient reason to want to lynch him today.

Curious about what you think I was doing up to that point that was trying to control the game narrative, particularly compared to others. Like I haven’t had enough time to post here to really try and control the narrative I don’t think.

Early on you tried to talk me down from an early solid TR on Datisi. And I'd consider your Dong vote/reasoning the only solid push in the game up to that point.
A fair bit of it is probably just my perspective, though - I get the vibe from reading your posts that you're more of a leader than others, particularly in this game. Regardless of whether that's something you're trying to do or not.

Someone once told me that if the lynch is on somewhere other than where you’re voting at the EoD then you did your job wrong as town or as scum

Now, I’ve done my job wrong plenty as both according to that criteria, but I always try to make sure the lynch is where I want it to be regardless of alignment. Based on recent feedback (newbie 1951 I think, maybe 1953) I am trying to get better at compromising when needed, but that behaviour is still there. If that’s trying to control the gamestate/frame the narrative then yes, I absolutely do that

I also think datisi is much townier now based on her continued efforts to solve, I just didn’t like how early she was being placed as town when I think she’s very good at making early town-sounding content earlier in the game. I think she struggles to keep that up as well as time goes on, I just didn’t see it last game because I was tunnelled and then dead. Although like I said, I need to reread everyone this game, including you klick

[Menalque]

I mean I'm about to have dinner but if town is so deep into the too scummy to be scum wormhole then I guess lynch me so long as dong never ever ever lives past tomorrow

I, however, am not way too deep up the too scummy to be scum wormhole, so I'd rather just lynch scum today

VOTE: dong

he literally claimed masons only to have that outright counterclaimed

then he self-voted, which again, why does town do that here?

[Menalque]

also, just quickly as I'm about to eat but:

(1) I drunk post as either alignment, and I don't do revisions when they're not needed. everyone else seemed to understand that post perfectly well/what I was getting at, you're the only one insisting that the thought process doesn't make sense. plus I made another post afterwards which was pretty much just supporting the drunk post and laid out perfectly logically, so any reasonable person would just take that as "revision" but you're looking for things to make me scum which is why you're trying to make such a minor point into a key point of your meta!scum argument

(2) "barely decipherable" is clearly bullshit, if other people had a problem understanding it they would have made that clear, you're making this up as a justification for why you found me scummy for something that is perfectly explainable as town behaviour but doesn't fit your narrative

(3) here's the entirety of 292. nice misreps

I wouldn’t say I’m engaged no

Chemist you're getting high on my shitlist and im gonna policy lynch you soon, we shouldnt have to TELL you to play

Also this is real fucking scummy

You bury a nice little comment backing a lynch on chem

Then you make a ‘case’ on me and vote me

Like if chem!town then this is just obvious distancing from the mislynch while still showing you’re okay with it (tbf I take it back if chem is the lynch for today and he flips scum) — also, before you say I’m misrepping: I know you said “policy lynch”. But guess what, that doesn’t matter because it’s still supporting the same outcome.

Also the timing of the post. It’s immediately before you make a case for me and start trying to put attention there to distract from your soft pushing of chem

(4) stop lying. I literally explained my town!lean on chemist. I went from town leaning him to town reading him because you were acting so incredibly scummily that I thought he couldn't be scum by association as you wouldn't push your buddy D1 as an alternative to me.

[Menalque]

Take a step back for a second and tell me how many times out of 100 you expect Dong to flip scum if we lynch him today.

Because I'd say 1, maaaaybe 2.

plus dong selfvoted and left a cryptic message saying once they flip, well see why they claimed masons

this is a good reason for why the number is probably closer to 75 there

dong is just scum who knows that getting lynched D1 is almost certainly losing for scum so he's made up a bullshit claim in the hopes that icon would back it in self-preservation as he made it when icon was looking like he might be lynched. this prob does make icon town though, as I think scum just backs the lie that they're both masons once dong has committed them to that

[Menalque]

(1) do you mean 245 because I'm p sure that I literally did

(2) because I was rushing to have dinner and couldn't be fucked to edit the post, also because "barely decipherable" was such a blatant lie that I wanted to quote it to show how you're sensationalising things to try and make me look bad

(3) I literally address why this is scummy despite you claiming "policy lynch". it's there. in the post. use your eyes.

(4) I appreciate you admitting that you're lying by the fact that you know there's literally nothing you can say that doesn't make your representation of my chem read false. I further appreciate you not even trying to do so because you know that it would make it even more obvious that you were lying.

anyone in doubt:

dong 440 : "since [mena] was townleaning [chem] with zero explanation on [mena's] side"

mena 297 : "honestly, my chem townlean before the associationals from dong which is now prob the larger part was basically from 101 and 197"

[Menalque]

@Bella here is the rough bullet point version:

- dong instantly starts trying to discredit me the moment I put a vote on him
- dong consistently avoids actually engaging with content while making excuses about how it's filled with traps for him should he try to engage
- dong also claims that my content is void, and refuses to even point out the various obvious traps that are mentioned
- dong regularly misreps me throughout the thread by leaving out context
- dong lies about being a mason with icon
- dong self votes
- dong LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON WITH ICON
- dong makes some bullshit argument about how he should be let live until tomorrow because iMpOrtAnT rOle StUFf
- dong again, outright lies by saying that I didn't explain my chem progression
- DONG LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON

at the very best, his play is anti-town because he's straight up lied more than once in thread. at the far more probable worst, he's scum who is deliberately lying to both try and avoid being lynched and to set the mislynch on me because it's p much the only option he has here now

if you think all that comes from town then okay I'm just done with this game

but will keep trying because, again, dong is scum and if we lynch him this game is borderline won for town

[Menalque]

Like, yes, anti-town stuff can come from town. But if you actually think that it’s anti-town you should lynch it every fucking time because it’s going against wincon

Like what, would you be listening to me more this game if I’d just fucking trolled for like 18 pages? Because that’s honestly the impression I’m getting

Who won that game you’re talking about with Luca/tchill btw? Right. Seems like doing blatantly anti-town things crazily seems to correlate with town losing, but somehow those things get a pass if “certain players” do them

[Menalque]

If you’re not gonna vote dong then go ahead and fucking vote me because I’m not backing off it at this point

Then after I flip green you can keep your shitty TR on him because he’s just a certain type of player with a “specific personality type” and go ahead and lose the game

Let’s totally ignore that I’ve got scum right D1 on like 4/5 of my most recent towngames but because I’m not the best at explaining people don’t fucking listen to me. And I tried to adjust for that this game based on feedback from other games but apparently trying to actually explain things doesn’t count for jackshit in this game. Even in the game where I didn’t push scum D1 I was on him early because that’s the game where I talked myself off korina onto mislynch bait

Do you want the others? Got scum skitt + epic creeper D1 in 1951/53 whatever it was

Got pine scum D1 in added to the group chat

Got icon scum D1 in purge

And in my first mini normal (can’t remember the number) I got luv scum on D1

I think I’m missing pfup as it’s my first large game, and obv I’ve missed my scum game but my point is my reads are actually pretty fucking good and constantly get ignored because of a mixture of not really being great at the persuasion part of the game and not having a strong enough reputation to just get sheeped on shit

[Menalque]

So like I said vote me or sheep me but stop beating around the bush

Unless my TR on you is just wrong and you’re trying to keep dong alive which is honestly becoming my pet tinfoil, but then Bella seems to be agreeing with you and I don’t think you’re both scum so what the fuck do I know

[Menalque]

What may or may not be a final readslist depending on whether scum manage to get me through while I’m asleep

Datisi — the only person actually being reasonable about not giving anti-town bullshit a pass
Icon — don’t think scum!icon doesn’t just claim masons with dong
Chem — town by association with dong at this point
Klick — consistently townie but I fucking hate the logic around not lynching players who are anti-town because that’s just part of the meta. I think he genuinely believes it tho, along with that this is TvT but again, given dongs play I’m slightly uncomfortable with the fact that he thinks I’m a better lynch when push comes to shove
VV — prob town but he’s kinda quiet and I do think that scum!him does potentially try to pocket me hard after recent interactions

Locke — could be scum bc he hasn’t done much but more of an outlier than the other tow
Bella — scummy for her positioning around dong/me. Don’t like that she’s echoing klick on stuff, don’t like that she didn’t respond to my bullet point case despite asking for it, don’t like that she’s giving her reason for TRing me as “he seems to believe what he’s saying” — I think it’s hard for scum to vote me in good faith but I think the buddy needs a way to take less heat while still trying to make me happen. Saying they TR me for something that’s NAI seems like a good way of doing that
Dong — res ipsa loquitor

[Menalque]

VOTE: dong

[Menalque]

Friendly neighbourhood reminderman that anti-town play is scum play

If y’all don’t wanna lynch obvscum I can’t help you

[Menalque]

“I dIdN’t ReaLiSe hE wAs aT L-1”

Said every survivalistic scum quickhammer ever

[Menalque]

Klick why are you changing your stance on dong now after hard defneind him D1?

[Menalque]

Bella why did you ignore 452 after specifically asking for it?

[Menalque]

Datisi is obvtown and has been since yesterday

Not surprised that dong is working on discrediting/shading the main person to back my read

Not loving that kori has instantly gone VLA after no kill and kinda worried that he might be trying to hardpocket me because I think there’s a good chance he takes this approach to my a lot as either alignments bc

reasons

@saudade what’s your take on the game?

[Menalque]

+ given the way this game is gone is that mason claim serious?

[Menalque]

Bella why did you ignore 452 after specifically asking for it?

Also if dong’s behaviour is and has been fucking terrible why are you so reluctant to vote him for it?

[Menalque]

Bella why did you ignore 452 after specifically asking for it?

Also if dong’s behaviour is and has been fucking terrible why are you so reluctant to vote him for it?

Also I thought you were already quite low on my slot by end of D1? If you reread me and you think I’m worse, then do you not SR me? If you SR me, why aren’t you voting me?

[Menalque]

So your vote was a pressure vote that prett clearly wasn’t a pressure vote because you were never actually likely to lynch him and he had no reason to think you would?

[Menalque]

So your vote was a pressure vote that prett clearly wasn’t a pressure vote because you were never actually likely to lynch him and he had no reason to think you would?

@klick

[Menalque]

@bella it just seems to me that if you were wanting a breakdown it would be for sorting reasons

If you thought that the reasons I gave were bad/fabricated, I’d expect you to call them out as such

Do you see why i think it’s weird to ask for content useful for sorting and then to not seemingly engage with it?

[Menalque]

Can’t remember why kori and no kill made sense to me as a thing to link together tbh I’m kinda drunk

It’ll come back to me

[Menalque]

Explain how my positioning around chem looks worse to you post flip?

[Menalque]

why does scum have to explicitly no-kill here mena? what does scum gain from doing so?
not only that, theres four other possibilities that ur just not looking at:
- theres a doctor, and they targeted whoever mafia was gonna kill
- theres a jailkeeper, and they targeted whoever mafia was gonna kill OR they targeted whichever mafia was preforming the kill
- theres a roleblocker, and they targeted whichever mafia was preforming the kill
- some combination thereof

I straight up don’t remember, this makes a lot of sense

[Menalque]

Oh wait, I just did, I didn’t mean no kill as in “Mafia no-killed” I meant it as in “that there was no kill for whatever reason”

Because I thought that was a weird thing that you’d wanna jam about and so I found it weird that instead of commenting you just went VLA

I do get RL stuff tho, but I kinda wanted to jam w/ you

Also because I have an unhealthy amount of paranoia towards you since 1949 and you haven’t been as townie as dats yet imo but you’ve taken a pretty mena!town stance I think which could be you pocketing me

[Menalque]

Okay cool:

(1) you seemed like you were fairly strongly TRing me p quickly yesterday. I kinda gave that a pass yesterday bc I was really focused on making people see dong!scum and I felt like anyone able to see what I was seeing was towny. Now (while dong is still very much scum) I’m a bit calmer and I wanna know how you got to town!me.

There was also a weird thing where you had me as I think your top TR but also mentioned something about maybe lynching me? I’ll see if I can find it after this

(2) what’s your opinion on the chem wagon, especially the way it got rapid pushed after dong finally started to gain momentum? Specifically, what do you think it says about klick, icon, and dong?

(3) what’s your read on bella?

[Menalque]

tbph, id prefer a chem lynch over mena lynch today.

Yeah, it was this, it seemed like a slightly odd phrasing when talking about lynching your top TR vs someone you’d just said you were fine with lynching

[Menalque]

Idk I don’t normally find you that measured in how you talk so I kinda would’ve expected you to say something like “uh we’re not fucking doing that today” or words to that effect

[Menalque]

(1) I’m p sure you said that you read my meta as part of 1949, right? Why do you think my behaviour here being similar to my behaviour there that I couldn’t be in my scumrange?

Like the thing I’m having trouble with is whether you were genuinely able to read me well based on that recent meta or if you TRing me hard early on was TMI which is why I want you to explain your thought process there as much as possible

(2) + (3) I’m about the same on both of these. I really doubt that icon is scum, and I think klick has been town apart from maybe with dong bc I still don’t get his actions around him. I’m willing to put it down to probably just a very different approach to pro- vs anti-town behaviour and the conclusions that should be drawn from them but if dong flips scum then klick is my outlier partner as things stand

Re: not thinking you could argue off it. That kind of makes sense logically but idk if it makes sense emotionally? Just from all my interactions with you I think you have self-confidence to a fault so idk why you’d go with a lynch on your top TR bc you didn’t believe you could argue off it

[Menalque]

“I dIdN’t ReaLiSe hE wAs aT L-1”

Said every survivalistic scum quickhammer ever

What a cringy post

wHaT a CrInGy pOsT

[Menalque]

why does scum have to explicitly no-kill here mena? what does scum gain from doing so?
not only that, theres four other possibilities that ur just not looking at:
- theres a doctor, and they targeted whoever mafia was gonna kill
- theres a jailkeeper, and they targeted whoever mafia was gonna kill OR they targeted whichever mafia was preforming the kill
- theres a roleblocker, and they targeted whichever mafia was preforming the kill
- some combination thereof

Stop setup speccing with no information. This post gave us 0 information and is completely pointless. Play the game normally, there are a million other combinations you dont see and all are just as irrelevant because we dont know the roles.

This is clearly not completely pointless. Because you’re absolutely not confirmed other than that you do have some sort of investigative power. Pretty sure you can’t be scum with Bella because her flipping red conf!scums you and it’s highly unlikely that scum doesn’t just kill her (even if not tonight for paranoia reasons they prob can’t leave her alive into lylo).

There is a point to it. If Bella is jailkeeper then either icon is pretty lock!town or pretty lock!scum. Likewise with roleblocker. Unless I’m misunderstanding the follower mechanics?

Instead of working through that you’re just default assuming that she’s a vanilla protective and using that to force your narrative on the game while trying to shut down discussion.

Bella, what type of protective are you? Did you crumb it?

[Menalque]

Most likely situation here is that dong is a scum follower or rolecop (which would explain why he’s so set on it being vanilla protective)

If it is then that’s still p good for us because it gives us two conf!town in bella and icon

We lynch in me and dong today, if we have to do me first okay I can roll with it, but once I green flip then dong should be lynched tomorrow

That leaves 1 scum in (klick, VV, dats, saudade). Highly doubt that it’s dats or VV at this point.

So if it goes something like D2 lynch me —> 5 town 2 scum N2 Bella dies —> 4 town 2 scum MYLO D3 lynch dong 4 town 1 scum N3 icon dies —> 3 town 1 scum D4 MYLO

I mean it’s not great and lynching dong today which gives us 3 conf!town would be a lot better but it’s doable, just need to get it right in mylo

[Menalque]

“I dIdN’t ReaLiSe hE wAs aT L-1”

Said every survivalistic scum quickhammer ever

What a cringy post

wHaT a CrInGy pOsT

what a cringy response

wHaT a CrInGy rEsPoNSe

[Menalque]

Most likely situation here is that dong is a scum follower or rolecop (which would explain why he’s so set on it being vanilla protective)

Nope, its because the mod literally said "bella used a protection" with nothing else. If i was a rolecop i'd be more insistent on her role. If i was a rolecop i wouldnt even bother with revealing her role and just kill her at night, now she ended up confirming two people.
The ignorance you display for good play is asinine.

Well no, because your play today is a pretty obvious example of why you’d not do that and you’d go down the route of insisting that the way to play today is to lynch my strongest supporter who you’re unsure of over someone you think is obvscum

Which then let’s you push the argument tomorrow “oh, I was wrong on dats, guess we’d better do mena today to be safe”

Not lynching the most obvious scum candidate fypov is scum play

I was literally in a game where scum won because they encouraged that line of thinking and then town voted for me as the person they thought was the second most likely scum when we had someone literally openwolfing

[Menalque]

I’m taking a break from the thread briefly

Ftr I hate that I’m just being asked to leave alone my top scumread while he continues to shade me and to push for the lynch of the person who I think is least likely to flip scum outside of actual p much conf!town

[Menalque]

Most likely situation here is that dong is a scum follower or rolecop (which would explain why he’s so set on it being vanilla protective)

Nope, its because the mod literally said "bella used a protection" with nothing else. If i was a rolecop i'd be more insistent on her role. If i was a rolecop i wouldnt even bother with revealing her role and just kill her at night, now she ended up confirming two people.
The ignorance you display for good play is asinine.

Well no, because your play today is a pretty obvious example of why you’d not do that and you’d go down the route of insisting that the way to play today is to lynch my strongest supporter who you’re unsure of over someone you think is obvscum

Which then let’s you push the argument tomorrow “oh, I was wrong on dats, guess we’d better do mena today to be safe”

Not lynching the most obvious scum candidate fypov is scum play

I was literally in a game where scum won because they encouraged that line of thinking and then town voted for me as the person they thought was the second most likely scum when we had someone literally openwolfing

Whos my partner?

Prob saudade, conceivably klick or VV, icon or dats as a massive outlier, almost certainly not bella

[Menalque]

“I dIdN’t ReaLiSe hE wAs aT L-1”

Said every survivalistic scum quickhammer ever

What a cringy post

wHaT a CrInGy pOsT

what a cringy response

wHaT a CrInGy rEsPoNSe

Some days i wonder if your site joindate is your birthday.

sOmE dAYs i WonDeR iF yOuR sItE jOiNDaTe iS yOuR BiRtHDaY

[Menalque]

Seriously, go fuck yourself dong, I can see that you’re scum and I’ve got you nailed to the fucking wall

If I have to get mislynched for people to listen to me that’s fine, it’s happened before, but if you think I’m just gonna let you run up datisi and then come for me in mylo then it’s not fucking happening

[Menalque]

I’m doing my best to ignore you, but if you wanna keep needling away like the shitbird you are then I’m not just gonna lie down and take it

Does it make you feel better knowing that your scumteam is fucked to make little jibes?

[Menalque]

Menalque, what motivation does scum!Dong have to say anything at all about the info he got about Bella today?

PEdit: You're really not reading the room. You're not getting lynched today. And even if you did and you flipped town, Dong wouldn't get lynched tomorrow.

Literally exactly the way he’s played it. He’s gonna go for the one other person who’s calling him scum (who I’m p sure he hasn’t actually done dick to case btw, just said “oh I didn’t like her EoD”), then tomorrow he’ll revert to “I’m pretty sure mena’s scum and as it’s mylo we should lynch there”)

Why do you think there’s clearly such a strong motivation for him to not reveal it and just NK her tomorrow?

[Menalque]

Calling him scum apart from me* obviously

[Menalque]

Also do you not think there is a significant advantage to resolving this situation today rather than letting it linger into mylo tomorrow? I think the problem is gonna be just as bad tomorrow in 6p mylo if we’re both there as it would’ve in 4p mylo

[Menalque]

I’m assuming that’s a joke claim

[Menalque]

you seem very paranoid menalque )':

Have you read the game yet saudade?

[Menalque]

If you read the game you’re probably gonna seem why I feel pretty paranoid right now

[Menalque]

It’s okay I imagine that dong filled you in in the PT

[Menalque]

Okay, if you’re town, why aren’t you gonna read the thread?

[Menalque]

Mostly PoE

I have a strong SR on dong

I have a strong TR on datisi

Bella and icon are both more or less conf!town through mechanics but icon could theoretically be scum

VV’s recent posting seemed towny to me so I TR him more than you/your slot atm

Klick has seemed consistently townie since D1 but I’m worried that his defence of dong could mean he’s the partner, and that his TR on me has been to keep me off him, but that he’ll flip over once we hit mylo because that’s winning for them. But independently of his dong interactions he’s towny

So that just leaves you and your predecessor who didn’t do a lot

[Menalque]

What mechanics conf town Bella

The fact that dong is claiming a protective and she confirmed it and having targeted icon who didn’t die last night

I highly doubt scum gambit there

[Menalque]

I have a strong TR on datisi

You should expand on this. Do you have any reasons outside of interaction with Dong?

I’m gonna towncase her later today, I’m on my phone and I’m not making a case without my laptop

[Menalque]

What mechanics conf town Bella

The fact that dong is claiming a protective and she confirmed it and having targeted icon who didn’t die last night

I highly doubt scum gambit there

Im not claiming a protective

I clearly meant protective result

[Menalque]

Menalque, what motivation does scum!Dong have to say anything at all about the info he got about Bella today?

PEdit: You're really not reading the room. You're not getting lynched today. And even if you did and you flipped town, Dong wouldn't get lynched tomorrow.

Literally exactly the way he’s played it. He’s gonna go for the one other person who’s calling him scum (who I’m p sure he hasn’t actually done dick to case btw, just said “oh I didn’t like her EoD”), then tomorrow he’ll revert to “I’m pretty sure mena’s scum and as it’s mylo we should lynch there”)

Why do you think there’s clearly such a strong motivation for him to not reveal it and just NK her tomorrow?

This hasn't really addressed my question at all. Why does he claim anything about any info he got on Bella? All it does is confirm Bella as town (unless she's Dong's partner). I don't see any scum motivation in it.

(1) it sets him up as confirmed to have some sort of investigative power, which I don’t doubt, I just doubt which side that power is being used for — this allows him to fake claim a guilty on mylo tomorrow assuming he can get a mislynch through today

(2) it lets him insert himself into the “townbloc” by claiming that scum!him wouldn’t need to reveal anything about bella’s actions and he’d just NK her — which is plausible, and if I wasn’t reading dong as scum already, I can see why this is a point to wonder about. But I think considering the fact that scum win tomorrow if they get a mislynch, there’s a lot of reason to take the gambit, try and mislynch me or datisi, then claim a guilty tomorrow for the win. Especially when, assuming Bella dies tonight, he’ll have two people strongly TRing him and therefore likely to believe a faked guilty meaning he’d only have to sell it to one more person

[Menalque]

Technically Dong isn't clear. He's claimed Follower, but there's nothing confirming him.

He's town though so that's a fine assumption

Unless there's a 3rd PR claim I think a doc+follower is a reasonable town pr set

Agreed, which is why I'm fine with a massclaim at this point.

Menalque, would you be opposed to massclaim? That might make things a bit more clear.

I’m fine with massclaim

[Menalque]

Menal i'd like you to talk about game events more and cry less, i cant make a case on you with your tears alone

Friendly reminder to go fuck yourself dong

[Menalque]

Why are you pushing a lynch on Dong then anyway?

Because I think he’s scum based on his D1 play and I don’t believe he’s a town follower

But cool, you “believing” dong is clear isn’t exactly surprising at this stage, just thought maybe I was wrong and it could be klick or VV

[Menalque]

Kori can you explain ico for me bc we’re close apart from being completely flipped on icon/dong

[Menalque]

Datisi towncase coming tomorrow, I didn’t end up getting on my laptop tonight

[Menalque]

Nah I’d rather do the whole thing and I’ll have time for it today

[Menalque]

Yeah, I think she showed a p clear progression on D1 but my TR on her is linked to dong too. Basically I don’t think she gets on her partner’s wagon when I’m the only one pushing it and it’s not really taking off, esp when her getting on seemed like what spurred the wagon to actually get going while before it was just me

[Menalque]

The progression is the unrelated bit that I need to actually case to show it, but it’s only that in conjunction with her timing on dong and her positioning that makes my TR on her as strong as it is

[Menalque]

datisi towncase here:

so I think that some of dats' early posting with icon is good looking back

specifically, I know that dats is super paranoid about people she's played with before, so her tone in 46, 48, and 50 seems townie, but also just the fact that she's interacting with icon like that -- I don't think scum dats would reply to icon with a GIF there or respond so nonchalantly, I think she'd be super paranoid and try to avoid him which she explicitly doesn't do in 87 where she bugs him to answer a Q

then in posts 88 through 102 I think she's genuinely trying to sort dong's read on icon. also I think those two questions are pretty empty from Bella, and I think that empty content does come from scum more often than town, so calling it out even though Bella is now conf!town makes dats townie too (from 102 where she's responding to dong) I think 108 is more evidence of an attempt to provoke content from Bella that will help dats sort her after not liking her earlier posts. towny.

then 129 makes sense in that context. I think there were good reasons to find Bella's early game content off, dats spotted those, followed up, and then gives a kind of tentative read on Bella. this could be hedging but I think it's much more likely (from tone and from her prior interactions with Bella) to be town who's unsure "Feels kinda uncommitted? (To be fair, it is page 5/6, so it may be too early, but still.)" -- I think scum here probably avoids being fencesitty on something like this, especially scum that's as paranoid as dats

138 and 142 are both more examples of dats acting in a way that I don't think scum!dats would. like, that's borderline aggravating ico imo, or has the potential to, and I think scum!dats is more careful to avoid treading on fingers.

then I like that she's asking about the "either ways" thing from dong in 159 bc that also pinged me when I was reading through the thread, as I imagine everyone is already aware of who's actually read the game.

then I think that town!dats with some mild Bella paranoia is likely to be paying more attention to bella's posts. so while I don't think that dats calling Bella out in 176 for being lamist is actually right, I think that she actually believes that and I don't think it's manufactured. like I potentially should check 1949 again but I mostly remember dats seeming town from not posting much content at all, not from being really good at faking trajectories. oh, also, in 171 I don't think that scum!dats is likely to draw more attention to herself by saying "oh look, my RVS vote isn't random anymore"

then in 193 she's trying to cover up for dong. this is actually one of the things that does seem slightly off, because it's almost slightly appeasing in tone "did I get it right?" but I think that dong's behaviour since then makes him scum. I don't think scum interacts with their partner in such a blatantly deferent way in thread.

then I think the way she backs off Bella is from a town thought process too. Bella pushes for content in 195 and then follows up with more requests for content in 210. if dats' main problem was a lack of content, then it makes sense why it's bella's posts in-between 170 and 226 from dats are posts that would make her revise that read. I think that was when Bella generated content and took a stance for the first time (214, 217) regarding lynching chem. and then I think 232 reflects that when she gives her first readslist.

I also like that she's not trying to be elusive with that readslist and it's about the right amount. she's not trying to force people to be town if they're not (looking at her stance on dong and on me) but she's also trying to sort down to three people she'd like to lynch which is pro-town as I think you need to make peace with the fact that although there may be multiple you don't like/think are bad, they're not all necessarily scum. but equally, I think scum is prob more concerned here with looking loose from not locking people up harder and sticking to that 3 SRs pool, and again, I think this is something that hyper self-aware scum!datisi thinks about and reacts to. So I don't think that scum!dats puts 3 other people in spots where she may move them and says "yeah these are my reads but I could be flexible on these guys".

later in 283 I think this lines up with the thought process that I think is evident from her posts. I think you can actually see her undergo a change from feeling iffy on Bella to coming off that read, and I think the fact that she's able to clearly explain it here (how it happened, where the read came from, why it changed) and that you can see evidence for all of that in this wall makes it far more likely to be a thought process that's genuine, ie. from town.

slightly after I like that she's worrying about whether I could be scum with chem in 286. I think she's still wondering here about me, dong, and chem.

then I think the defence of icon is good 290. I think town is more likely to be so concerned about a player who's mislynchable (as icon often is, look how close he was on D1) and that they know is mislynchable. it's the same sort of thought process I was having around chem but just directed elsewhere. also, just tonally, I think this is right: there's not an oversell on how sure she is, but I also don't think this looks like she's setting him as someone to come back to a SR on later. like. she's not leaving the door open enough in her uncertainty for that to be easy for scum!her.

posts 318 and 355 are following up on not having answers from dong. I think scum is more likely to forget what they asked/didn't asked, and more willing to let those things slip through the cracks if it's not helpful. I think it's much, much easier for scum!dats to just let me and dong fight it out, hop onto the chem wagon when she'd expressed doubts around him early that would justify her action (along with him not really being TR) and just take the mislynch.

and I thought that trying to keep the thread civil in 389 civil is townleanable. I don't see why scum bothers to correct toxic behaviour/conflict when that's likely to lead to increased apathy which I think typically benefits scum.

then 416 is something that makes sense to me aka lynching the fucking fake mason claim and I still swear to god I have no idea why everyone has been acting like fake claims aren't scum indicative AT A MINIMUM. so datisi getting on here jives with my thought process and cements her as one of the people actually acting rationally D1

also think 517 is incredibly town both in content (" dude, we were just in a game (Mini Normal 2095) where two slots who were arguably acting the most anti-Town like were the goddamn scumteam") and in tone ("I'm just fucking done losing Town games from scum who spends the whole game doing the most anti-Town things imaginable for the Town to then go "haha personality yep they're Town™!""). I believe in making decisions based on the particular game you're in. I think that just universally making decisions based on 'truths' about the game (VCA comes to mind as a common fuckup area, as does overreliance on meta reads -- I hate the phrase, "outside X's scumrange") is a bad move that loses some games. but guess what? those general tells (anti-town behaviour) are scum indicative because a lot of the time they come from scum! I like how pissed off about this she is, because it mirrors my own irritation. I feel like I've been fighting an uphill battle that somewhere along the line is getting misled by scum who know perfectly well that dong is scum but are pushing the TSTBS narrative to keep him out of the lynch pool. the fact that datisi is taking a stand on that with me is another thing that makes her town. it's like an attitude mind meld.

also, just look at dong's progression on her: I think she's making valid points in 518 where she talks about him TRing her to his move onto her as scum once she sees through his BS and votes him (by 528 -- and surprise surprise, there's a misrep involved. he says that he's not been ignoring her when she had to answer a question three times to get an answer, that generally qualifies as ignoring in my book). also, I think dong's kinda perspective slipping in 521 regarding dats. he says "don't fool yourself into thinking that" -- I think that sounds like someone who knows that they're believing something in a genuine way, i.e. her believing dong was ignoring her. which then turns into "I'm pretty sure its menal/datisi by this point" in 523 despite there being no other content from datisi in-between the two posts, only klick voting him in 522, which is prob pressure for him to produce content when he hasn't had the time to fully lay the groundwork, only to hint at it (in 521 "your content has been inoffensive for the most part, i have to say that upon closer inspection they dont appear to be to good. I'll make a post detailing my thought process on this.")

and that's it. that's my datisi towncase.

[Menalque]

can we get a prod on icon pls

also I mean there's quite a lot of reasons in 685 dats

[Menalque]

vote dong with me kori and then we have less stress tomorrow sorting between saudade and klick for the partner

I mean it's prob saudade but it's almost definitely dong

[Menalque]

oh yeah I forgot about that

[Menalque]

Icon, what caused your klick read to change from “prob town unless partners with dong” to being in your lynchpool without dong?

What’s your current read on dong?

What’s your current read on me?

[Menalque]

Icon, what caused your klick read to change from “prob town unless partners with dong” to being in your lynchpool without dong?

What’s your current read on dong?

What’s your current read on me?

Well

I'm town
Bella claims to have saved me, no NK.
Dong's claim actually feels legit

that leaves

Datisi
Locke/Saudude
Menalque
Klick

I'm not lynching Datisi or Saudude slot today barring shenanigens

So yeah you tell me what to think here

I'm confused regarding your read on dong, and I think it's troubling because people tend to end up TRing the people they have a neighbourhood with even if they shouldn't.

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

Also you forgot the Vex slot existed.

also this

[Menalque]

massclaim pls

yes we've already agreed on this but I think we're waiting for Bella/icon to decide the order

[Menalque]

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

why does Dong bother fake!claiming masons and get a shitstorm over him to stop my lynch from happening if his plan is to NK me anyway? You are literally saying he set me up as conftown only to NK me?

yeah that is kinda weird lemme think about it

[Menalque]

I can see like what, one (1) scenario where it's all fake and that means it's Bella + Dong pulling some of the strangest shenanigans i've ever seen.

Shenanigans by claiming 2 STRONG TOWN POWERS, that probably get busted by massclaim anyway.

I don’t think they do that because how would they explain Bella not dying after a claim?

[Menalque]

Actually thinking about it like this, if there are actually full town hoods, having a SCUM enabler would be a thing

lynch scum enabler, town loses access to the hoods

Thoughts?

That doesn’t strike me as likely either bc I don’t think the enabler is enough balance alone to follower and an ungated doc?

Although I guess scum could have a 1shot strongman or something, but I still doubt the probability that it was balanced like that

[Menalque]

I hate setup spec

[Menalque]

Icon can you explain your klick evolution to me?

[Menalque]

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

Lets say that i did all of these. In that same night i "rolecop" (not even what i claimed) bella, also try to kill ico, who im trying to pocket, then instead of shutting up about it and killing Bella at night i make a ruckus, and tell ico my night result in the neighbourhood without anyone asking me in the thread.
Why?
If im pocketing hım i dont try to kill hım,
I never claim masons while ico iş getting lynched because chemist is already an easy mislynch for tomorrow,
I dont confirm both myself, ico and Bella with my night action.
I dont do anything you say that would make sense as scum.

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

why does Dong bother fake!claiming masons and get a shitstorm over him to stop my lynch from happening if his plan is to NK me anyway? You are literally saying he set me up as conftown only to NK me?

yeah that is kinda weird lemme think about it

[Menalque]

To be clear if it wasn’t already, I’m VT

[Menalque]

I am rethinking some stuff but I’m following along

[Menalque]

I kinda want VV to come back before I make any hard decisions about stuff

Also UNVOTE:

[Menalque]

we are lynching vexie vex tho

he scummie

also nobody wants to talk about why he's actually scum?

see, does this not concern you?

[Menalque]

Also, I have reached conclusions

[Menalque]

Dong is toxic, and anti-town, and on a shitty omgus tunnel from D1 but also, irritatingly, town

So scum is in (VV, sau, klick)

[Menalque]

I think I prefer this but I need to do rereads too

VOTE: saudade

[Menalque]

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

Lets say that i did all of these. In that same night i "rolecop" (not even what i claimed) bella, also try to kill ico, who im trying to pocket, then instead of shutting up about it and killing Bella at night i make a ruckus, and tell ico my night result in the neighbourhood without anyone asking me in the thread.
Why?
If im pocketing hım i dont try to kill hım,
I never claim masons while ico iş getting lynched because chemist is already an easy mislynch for tomorrow,
I dont confirm both myself, ico and Bella with my night action.
I dont do anything you say that would make sense as scum.

Like, you've said before that you don't get why dong would play around you specifically, but I think it makes quite a lot of sense if you look at dong's play overall. Goes after getting a TR from you D1 and plans to lock that in by killing you, then after you get saved and become conf!town pushes for someone who isn't their biggest SR (!) by going after dats -- incidentally, why do you think the push dong made today is in good faith if you're TRing dats? Then tomorrow they've got you pocketed to take their pick of who they wanna push tomorrow between me/klick/VV (prob me and working on the basis that saud is the more likely partner). So they only need to convince 1 of klick (maybe saud)/VV to vote for me along with you and get a quickhammer off for the win

why does Dong bother fake!claiming masons and get a shitstorm over him to stop my lynch from happening if his plan is to NK me anyway? You are literally saying he set me up as conftown only to NK me?

yeah that is kinda weird lemme think about it

Bc dong and icon are right that this doesn’t make sense with scum!dong and I can’t think of a gambit where this fits with him being scum

[Menalque]

If it was just 2 of (dong/icon/Bella) claiming the actions they are then it could be scum trying to set up for a win in 6p mylo

But it can’t be bc there’s 3 of them

[Menalque]

I'm glad you finally came around

Further extrapolate that my actions today/at the end of D1 make very little sense from the perspective of scum with either Vex or Saudade, and you arrive at the solve.

I’ll reread that but do you see why I’m kind of uneasy about how retain you’ve seemed on dong v me being TvT the whole time while most other people have at least had doubts at one point or another about at least one of us?

[Menalque]

I think I prefer this but I need to do rereads too

VOTE: saudade

why is saudude better? gotten to reread yet?

why is vex a bad lynch?

VV felt like he was making a good faith effort to interact with me earlier in day

sau just hasn't really done anything

haven't reread yet idk if I'll get to. I mean I'll compromise on VV if you don't think sau!scum is likely, but I kinda still feel like that's happened too easily without anyone arguing for why it's specifically sau/VV rather than possibly klick/VV or klick/sau

[Menalque]

well, other than klick but that doesn't exactly help

[Menalque]

I think Vex's current level of effort is NAI - he's already said he has something more important that he's paying attention to over this for right now.

can you talk about the AI stuff then? Like his terrible readslist i quoted a while back?

the one where he included you at the bottom? I don't think that's a scum!VV mood

like, this is the account he plays more seriously on, so I kinda don't think that's him memeing and I don't think vulnerable scum!him fucks up that badly bc he prefers scum from what I remember and probs puts more effort in bc of that

[Menalque]

i mean i don't have a strong townread on Saud so I don't really feel like stopping his lynch but you guys are ignoring Vex i think

I mean if klick is town then it's literally just both of them and this is a bus to try and get one through to 4p mylo

but if it's not then I don't really think I can read sau that well whereas I think I can kinda read VV and I still lean town there

so I'd rather do sau

[Menalque]

Heres the plan: we abandon both vex and saudade wagons, give saud more time to play the game as i was townreading locke spot, i make a case on menalque, we close the book on that chapter. Townbloc, what are your thoughts?

I mean if you're certain that you have the solve after I flip green then this is kinda viable, as it's apparently the only way to get you to untunnel me

but on the other hand if you lynch wrong out of sau/klick/VV tomorrow then we lose so *shrug*

[Menalque]

re:862 @dong

[Menalque]

Are we going the reaction gif route now

:8

I thought it became uncool when ico started spamming it ( no offense)

[Menalque]

Lmao, okay dong, if you keep this tunnel going ur literally gonna lose us the game

Scum is somewhere in (VV, klick, dats) unless I’ve really fucked up understanding the mechanics

I suppose it could theoretically be icon and they no killed N1 as bait but that seems like too much of a coincidence

[Menalque]

I still think that dats is v likely town but she did fool me hard in 1949 so I prob should read that carefully again

I thought she felt different from there tho, which gives me most likely a VV/klick team

[Menalque]

Smh if it’s kori/dats two games in a row

[Menalque]

Why do you think I’m scum over vex? Like you’re so close to what I think is prob the solve but you just can’t see that I’m town because you still haven’t got over fighting with me for all of D1

[Menalque]

Also as much as I hate setup spec I kinda doubt that dats is scum neighbour enabler if VV flips goon bc I don’t really think that’s balanced? But if he flips rolecop then maybe

I doubt scum has a roleblocker or strongman at this point because I think they’d just have killed you

[Menalque]

I’m not even 100% on scum vex tbh but I do think that’s most probable

But like one of the explicit elements of his scumgame is good management of associatives so if he flips scum then if anything that should imply me!not scum to you

[Menalque]

Who did you follow dong? Because if you followed me you have at least a soft clear on me so can you actually think about it for a second

If it’s not on me you need to claim it because it takes the odds to 50/50 rather than 1/3

[Menalque]

It’s a soft clear not a hard clear

So that actually does kinda decrease the odds of vex!scum

[Menalque]

Unless I’m using those terms wrong

But like that confirms that the kill was made by one of (you, datisi)

Doesn’t mean VV isn’t scum, but it’s a bad idea to lynch there today when we know he didn’t make the kill

[Menalque]

Or I guess for people other than me it’s between (me, dats, klick) on who made the kill

[Menalque]

I’m gonna reread datisi and klick again later

[Menalque]

I mean it’s a p good reason when we’re in mylo and our protective just died

I don’t really wanna lynch the person who only could be scum when I know there’s a scum between you and datisi and you could both be

[Menalque]

Think he means 862

[Menalque]

Klick I like you less the more I skim your ISO

Mostly getting iffy over your dong v mena being tmi-y and the fact that you’ve been pushing heaven/vex!slot as scummy since D1 but always been happy to compromise off it p easily. I think you could have been bringing him here to be mislynched

Also your prog on datisi seems weird. NE could be scum if it’s paired with something imo

Plus the fact you’re clearing her through mechanics while calling vex scum by play

[Menalque]

Then again, I reread dats ISO p recently and came away thinking she’s strongly town

So I could also see you bussing today from early to try and get the towncred to win in 4p mylo

[Menalque]

If you are town, talk to me about vex/dats bc that’s the only other possibility

[Menalque]

Think he means 862

Incidentally I was hoping I wouldn’t have to engage with this because I wasn’t in the mood to 1v1 you when I don’t even want you lynched but I guess I’ll have to seeing as you’re still so tunnelled

Not doing it from my phone tho so you’ll have to wait until later

[Menalque]

I will respond in depth but when I’m on my laptop

[Menalque]

Do you wanna answer 930? Also yes, there’s a distinction which is that you’re doing mechanics based on pure speculation, whereas mine is based on a conf!town saying that vex did not kill last night ie something that we know

[Menalque]

I think that I can pretty clearly be seen to have a trajectory on dong from questioning to probing, all of which reinforced my belief he was scum because I didn’t think he was engaging with me a lot of the time

Whereas with gamma I’d decided before I came in that I wanted to be super aggro as a style so I picked someone I thought I could plausibly SR (cinn, who was playing differently) and decided to laser on gamma

[Menalque]

I can be this aggressive as either alignment, it’s how I went into it that shows I’m town here

Look at 1949 where I lynched grimm in more or less the same way I went after dong

Dong is just not a newbie and has the advantage of being a PR who was able to conf himself which let me untunnel

[Menalque]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

[Menalque]

I’ll respond later tonight but if you’re not scum then fucking unvote me quickly because if it is VV and dats then they can hammer rn

[Menalque]

I don’t give a shit which one of you it is but unless you’re 100% sure I’m scum in which case we’re losing anyway then unfucking vote me

[Menalque]

Also if dats and vex haven’t actually said anything to each other that’s actually pretty worrying bc it’s one of vex’s scumtells

[Menalque]

Plus we’ve got 6 days to sort this out but if dats and VV or in some weird fucking world icon are scum then that vote literally lost the game klick

[Menalque]

If they come online

[Menalque]

Unless you are just scum in which case I guess we’re good, or at least not liable to a quickhammer

[Menalque]

I’ll talk about it just fucking unvote me

[Menalque]

He’s literally said that it’s a big thing of his in 1949 that he forgets partners/doesn’t interact with them enough even if he consciously tries to remember

[Menalque]

Like idk if you’re telling the truth about that being the case here but I’m telling the truth about that being the case there so hurry the fuck up if you’re town

[Menalque]

Like idek what you’re planning to get out of this?

Unless you’re scum in which case I guess it could confirm one of us and I’m prob the more likely to be voted

[Menalque]

So actually, well played if you’re scum, this was prob the right moment to go for it

[Menalque]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

In context of your thoughts on that... this post doesn't feel like a genuine opinion with thoughts behind it.

PEdit: it still makes zero sense for me to be scum with literally anyone I could be scum with in your eyes and I feel like you're not really considering that point

But fine UNVOTE:

I’m not sure what you mean here

I haven’t been looking through VV/dats for associatives bc frankly I’ve thought datisi is town for a while, I did like VV’s entrance but I guess now I need to reread all that, and I also on a gut level I just thought that it was unlikely that I would be against the same exact scum team two games in a row

[Menalque]

Right, now, I’m gonna find the post from 1949, make some food, then come back here and go through dong’s case

[Menalque]

@VV if you’re around still tell me why it’s klick/dats not you

I liked your entrance but now I’m kinda worried you just decided to sheep me/pocket me bc it would be in such stark contrast to last game

I’m making this read partly on the basis of

reasons

and cant say more about that specifically

[Menalque]

Subject: Newbie 1949 - Game Over!

Yea, when you were just going with what I said, I knew we had the game then and there. It's also worthwhile to mention that I'm extremely good at scum so, I wouldn't feel as bad about losing this game. It's a good experience to have early on IMO. Not everyone will be easy to read, you just gotta figure out what means they're scum. For me, it's really just "who am I not interacting with?" because I unintentionally ignore my partners. This game was especially bad since I kinda forgot Datisi existed in the main thread half the game.

[Menalque]

Right gonna go cook I’ll come back and respond to everyone afterwards

[Menalque]

@VV if you’re around still tell me why it’s klick/dats not you

I liked your entrance but now I’m kinda worried you just decided to sheep me/pocket me bc it would be in such stark contrast to last game

I’m making this read partly on the basis of

reasons

and cant say more about that specifically

Dont like this post however,
Why would vex want to paint a picture of klick/dats when from town!vex pov you would be the more likely candidate for klicks partner?
I dont see him ever mentioning a scumread on datisi either

Bc I’m trying to work through the scenarios that are possible to me, and that doesn’t feature me!scum

If VV is town then fmpov it’s klick/dats so I wanna hear his case for that

If you wanna ask him to case me/dats and me/klick as well then go for it bc those are all possible worlds fypov

[Menalque]

alright I'm back gonna reply to a couple of things quickly then handle the dong case

also I'm a lil buzzed

got my wine on

[Menalque]

Now I’d like you to answer 930 because right now I think (klick, vex) and (klick, dats) are both more likely than (vex, dats)

Like, you made this post

but nothing you've said gives me any indication that you believe this? You've just said that you didn't really put any thought into a (Vex, Datisi) team. So what were you even thinking internally when you made Post 940?

You're also saying that you've been thinking Datisi is town for a while, but that doesn't explain why you think (Klick, Datisi) is more likely than (Vex, Datisi).

I was thinking that I'd been TRing datisi for a while and was strong enough town on her to actually make a long ass case on why she's town here on D2

I'd had doubts about you before so I wasn't as hot on you

I'm unsure on VV

so I was thinking that read on dats was still more likely to be right than prior reads on you/VV - although I'm a bit less sure now, I kinda think scum!you wouldn't unvote me there as it would conf!scum one of us if you'd left it on and I think that people are more likely to vote me atm than you

[Menalque]

Do you wanna answer 930? Also yes, there’s a distinction which is that you’re doing mechanics based on pure speculation, whereas mine is based on a conf!town saying that vex did not kill last night ie something that we know

When did Dong actually become conf!town? I feel confident he's town and he's never getting lynched, but he's not conf!town. You didn't think he was conf!town for a while yesterday. So where did that come from?
I said yesterday that I don't think Datisi kills Icon N1 with the knowledge that there are neighbors (and she clearly had early knowledge of the neighbors in some capacity even if she's scum). That's not a simple mechanics-based read.

I'll look at 930 after I look at Dong's case on you. But frankly, my off-the-top response is that right now I think the most likely scumteam is you/Vex and I don't really want to make a case for a scumteam that I'm not actually seeing. Curious why you're not seeing Vex/Datisi as a scumteam though, since you seem to already have a take on this.

also wrt this dong is conf!town unless you believe that him and icon is the scumteam and that they decided to no kill N1, coincidentally hit the doc on a role cop/follow, then revealed that instead of mislynching somewhere else and killing her N2

I think that's a super unlikely series of events so dong is functionally conf!town for outing Bella when he did

icon is v likely conf!town unless scum pulled a no kill gambit N1 which is possible but I think unlikely

I went into yesterday hard scum reading dong from D1 and it took icon who I was relatively neutral on pointing out that dong's play doesn't make any sense really from scum for me to see it, and so I started treating him as functionally conf!town yesterday bc he was only really viable scum w/ Bella -- the Bella flip confirms him imo

[Menalque]

Lets go through this one by one, i'll start with 441 and end at where he stops suspecting me to make my case:

Spoiler:

I mean I'm about to have dinner but if town is so deep into the too scummy to be scum wormhole then I guess lynch me so long as dong never ever ever lives past tomorrow

I, however, am not way too deep up the too scummy to be scum wormhole, so I'd rather just lynch scum today

VOTE: dong

he literally claimed masons only to have that outright counterclaimed

then he self-voted, which again, why does town do that here?

(1)

The classic "lynch me but lynch this guy tomorrow" ultimatum. I dont need to point out that this only comes from scum unless the guy saying that has already claimed and is getting lynched. Reason being that this makes it seem as though they are risking something by saying they arent afraid of a lynch. Menal is pretty much the golden boy for this kind of behaviour, almost all of his posts after my mason claim include some sort of "lynch me idc town sux" even though he is under flak by no one besides me and possibly ico.
And the self vote is pretty obviously a martyr play to let ico live another day which i gave up on when i realized i can probably make better use of a follower pm.

Spoiler:

Take a step back for a second and tell me how many times out of 100 you expect Dong to flip scum if we lynch him today.

Because I'd say 1, maaaaybe 2.

plus dong selfvoted and left a cryptic message saying once they flip, well see why they claimed masons

this is a good reason for why the number is probably closer to 75 there

dong is just scum who knows that getting lynched D1 is almost certainly losing for scum so he's made up a bullshit claim in the hopes that icon would back it in self-preservation as he made it when icon was looking like he might be lynched. this prob does make icon town though, as I think scum just backs the lie that they're both masons once dong has committed them to that

(2)

Kind of a nitpick and i dont know menals style so idk about this but i think someone who is this deadset on me being scum would go for a higher number than 75 here. Every post he makes i get lower on his readslist yet he doesnt call me 100 scum.

I've talked about my claim and the situation a lot and im making a case against menal, not defending myself so moving on.

Spoiler:

@Bella here is the rough bullet point version:

- dong instantly starts trying to discredit me the moment I put a vote on him
- dong consistently avoids actually engaging with content while making excuses about how it's filled with traps for him should he try to engage
- dong also claims that my content is void, and refuses to even point out the various obvious traps that are mentioned
- dong regularly misreps me throughout the thread by leaving out context
- dong lies about being a mason with icon
- dong self votes
- dong LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON WITH ICON
- dong makes some bullshit argument about how he should be let live until tomorrow because iMpOrtAnT rOle StUFf
- dong again, outright lies by saying that I didn't explain my chem progression
- DONG LIED ABOUT BEING A MASON

at the very best, his play is anti-town because he's straight up lied more than once in thread. at the far more probable worst, he's scum who is deliberately lying to both try and avoid being lynched and to set the mislynch on me because it's p much the only option he has here now

if you think all that comes from town then okay I'm just done with this game

but will keep trying because, again, dong is scum and if we lynch him this game is borderline won for town

(3)

See one point that ruffles my feathers is that menal puts questionable, gambit play and instantly tosses them into "anti-town" bin, even though my supposedly "anti-town" play just earned us 3 confirmed town today.

Also going back to me trying to discredit you, how about this?

Still, rewrite your fucking post. If you're not doing it im assuming that you dont want me to read you properly, and if thats the case i'll rip into its every single contradiction. Also you would then be accusing me of the same stubbornness you display.

(4)

Now going back and reading it it does seem a little pretentious, wasnt my intention, but still you were the one accusing me of shading you and being scum long before i even made a case against you. And even then when i saw your case i wanted you to make a new one because the one you made didnt even push me hard enough. It was just a slight poke and i wanted to see if you were actually sold on your scumread on me. Clearly you werent as you resorted to a defensive manner of talking later.

In fact if i had to make a timeline of your playstyle reaction to me:
You started with a small case in 179 that i then challenged you to remake
You refused it and went into a defensive mode, went on to form a solid read on me without actually saying much about my play,
After i posted my response to your post you ignored that and went on a full on tunnel as did i,

(5)

And as my mason claim came it apparently "made sense" i would play like this as mason, yet when i retracted the claim i was instantly scum? Still didnt explain your reasoning on this thought process either.
After this came appealing to emotion a lot with posts like

Spoiler:

Friendly neighbourhood reminderman that anti-town play is scum play

If y’all don’t wanna lynch obvscum I can’t help you

where you didnt say a lot of stuff except just say i was "confirmed scum"

(6)

And then came the complete 180 where you arent suspecting me anymore?
This is a really bumpy relationship. Im afraid i cant continue with this. This is my fault, not yours. You deserve better than me.

(7) Also one thing to note is that most of the stuff you say i do are things i have accused you of doing before you wrote this, namely misrepping me which you have done by completely ignoring several posts and ignoring most posts context. And unlike you i actually provide quotes to back this up, i believe that doing stuff on the fly and not giving any evidence for it because "its self evident" makes a case very weak as if it was self evident there would be no need for a case anyway.

(8) Therefore it is scummy to just say things and not provide ample quotes

because not only does it make your case weaker and therefore you wont have to worry about too much flak you wont be able to be pressured on certain quotes as you have done with 442 where i made a mistake and thought you flipped on your chemist read. You wouldnt be able to refute that if i hadnt provided quotes like you havent been doing all game.

Thats the main difference between you misrepping and me misrepping. I havent misrepped you on purpose but when i accidentally did it you were able to point them out because i have been providing quotes to back up my line of thinking so if there is something wrong with what im thinking its obvious in what i provided.

(9) Thats what town should do, make an understandable case so people can point out the flaws and move on from there.

Your posts in contrast have minimal quotes referenced if any, you havent responded to most of my posts though its too late for it now. Most of them rely on just trying to destroy one point i made and then declare victory, 296 comes to mind as you said "dong scum" because i had a different line of thinking than you.

(10) Town would try to analyze why scum would make that kind of thinking and engage if it didnt make sense to them, and vote if they were certain it had a scummy agenda. Scum condition themselves to see it as scummy because of a possibly flawed line of thinking and dont try to rationalize the one posting it. You fall into the latter category.

Contrary to what you said, i never called your posts void.

(11) I said that they were filled with traps, yes, and i stand by that

.

(12) I never said they were devoid of content however, just bad content that i didnt want to waste my time with because my read wouldnt change and nor would anyone elses at that time so i postponed it and i probably wont respond to them ever at this point.

Considering that half your points are me fakeclaiming masons and now you have realized that it doesnt make sense for me to risk myself to save ico, i think thats about all im going to respond to for this post.

Spoiler:

If you’re not gonna vote dong then go ahead and fucking vote me because I’m not backing off it at this point

Then after I flip green you can keep your shitty TR on him because he’s just a certain type of player with a “specific personality type” and go ahead and lose the game

Let’s totally ignore that I’ve got scum right D1 on like 4/5 of my most recent towngames but because I’m not the best at explaining people don’t fucking listen to me. And I tried to adjust for that this game based on feedback from other games but apparently trying to actually explain things doesn’t count for jackshit in this game. Even in the game where I didn’t push scum D1 I was on him early because that’s the game where I talked myself off korina onto mislynch bait

Do you want the others? Got scum skitt + epic creeper D1 in 1951/53 whatever it was

Got pine scum D1 in added to the group chat

Got icon scum D1 in purge

And in my first mini normal (can’t remember the number) I got luv scum on D1

I think I’m missing pfup as it’s my first large game, and obv I’ve missed my scum game but my point is my reads are actually pretty fucking good and constantly get ignored because of a mixture of not really being great at the persuasion part of the game and not having a strong enough reputation to just get sheeped on shit

(13) Again, more AtE saying that you're always right so you should be trusted on me read or you may as well die. Town would bite the bullet here and start making associations, instead of trying to get the moral high ground every chance they get.

Think thats about all i got so far, i would make some more but tomorrow i probably will expand on this

wow that's a lot of words

I'mma do my best w/ this

(1) I'm p sure I've told people to lynch me before if they're willing to go with my lynch the next day as town and as scum, although I'm not 100% on that

but like, I've come to trust my reads generally even if they're off sometimes. I do think your play was scummy -- feeding into the gambit thing you talk about later, yes it got us 3 conf!town. but if it hadn't worked what happens? I keep scumreading you and the thread keeps imploding, icon was saved but you had to out Bella to do it which made us lose our protection

I don't really see what the advantage is in a gambit that if it fails has significant downside vs just playing solidly as town where Bella might still be alive today which would mean we'd only be in semi-mylo

so yeah you may be town this game but I'm always gonna end up thinking you're scum in games if this is how you play as town normally because I think gambits like that on average lower towns EV

(2) I'm not an absolutist. out of believing that someone is mechanically conf!scum I try to avoid exagerrating how strong my reads are if it's outright put to me as a question. I would have said at the time that you were flipping scum 3/4 times. as it is, we're in the 1/4

(3) already covered why I think that a gambit that pays off is still a bad choice

look at it like this

you put your life savings on red. red comes up. now your life savings are doubled. was it a good choice? I still don't think so.

(4) I think this is just you SRing my play style dong? I will make a case based on what there is and push it. if I like the responses then I end up TRing the person normally. if I don't I keep applying pressure. I didn't like your responses so I kept applying pressure.

it's also kind of ironic bc the reason I was SRing you was because I thought you were being overly defensive when you wrote posts like 201 and 203 which I thought weren't actually bothering to engage with the content of what I was saying but trying to dismiss it and not deal with it

I didn't think you were SRing me at that point so I didn't get why town would immediately try to discredit me or avoid them instead of explaining what they didn't like about them

(5) it's p simple. I thought scum wouldn't claim a mason apart from with a mason buddy and that one would die for sure N1 if they were actually masons. so you having a way of instantly conf!towning yourself made sense to me viewing you as not caring if your play was scummy or not because you had a get out of jail free card if you ever got flack for it. then when icon said you weren't actually masons I couldn't see a good reason for town to lie there instead of saying "I'm a neighbour with icon and I think he's town based on our PT". even claiming neighbours would prob have been enough to stop a quicklynch. I thought the claim of a fake mason was scum!you thinking icon would go for it to avoid the lynch because you thought he trusted you enough from the pt. I was prob somewhat conf!biased tho from interacting with you before that tho

(6) what do you want from me? do you want me to try and force myself through the logic that would make you scum (the incredibly unlikely you + icon team?) so that you can feel better about your SR on me?

yes, I 180'd bc icon who I was thinking was p much conf!town regardless made a post that pointed out why your overall play didn't make any sense coming from scum!you. I thought about that and realised that it didn't make any sense from scum!you, so I went to the other logical conclusion which was that you had to be town

(7) I don't think I misrepped you but if you wanna show me where and how I did this then go ahead. I still feel like you were misrepping me even if I now think that was unintentional/due to conf!bias

(8) this is something I do as either alignment. I don't always focus on the exact words used, I focus on what the meaning that the person was trying to convey was. I only focus on exact words if I think there's something particularly scum!indicative in them

(9) again, this is just how I build cases. I don't see why not having an explicit quote to back up everything I say makes it impossible for people to disagree w/ me or point out the flaws. in fact I think doing that too much can lead to missing out on the subtext that's present and end up with shit being too surface level rather than looking where it should be i.e. in where the post is coming from and why it was made

(10) firstly I'm never certain unless I have things mechanically confirmed to me, I'm always in the range of probability. in this case, I thought it was scummy because I do think that anti-town shit is generally scum!indicative. I do think lynching scum D1 is nearly always good, and I think it's scummy to suggest that it's not, but the key thing is that you're taking this out of the context that it happened in. when I'm posting here, I'm already SRing you quite hard and I'm looking to test that theory by seeing if your posts conflict or support it. I'm gonna quote the specific ones that I think support it if they make it very clear how they support that thesis, and that's why I focus in on some while talking about others more generally. I focused on the ones that I thought would make it clearer to others how you were scum, and left alone the ones which I still thought fit into a whole pattern of scum behaviour but that would be harder to explain to the town, which was what I needed to try and do thinking that I had scum and just needed to get it lynched

(11) you've said this a lot but I don't think you've ever actually pointed out one of the traps. if this is part of your argument, then I'd like you to show the class please seeing as you're conf!town and can't actually be caught out by said traps.

(12) I don't really know what you're getting at here or how it's scum!indicative for me

(13) look, I'm sorry if I get frustrated. but honestly, I feel like this site gives a lot of meaning to the reads of some people and I think it's at least in part just cause they've been on site for a while. my reads have, I think, been distinctly above average recently (barring a couple of exceptions, hence above average) and it's frustrating when I feel like I'm being ignored when I have scum esp when I know that persuasion is a weak part of my game. not too long before this post, I literally had a scum lined up all day and no-one would listen to me just bc he fake claimed. when he started open wolfing another member of town bought into it and voted me (despite the fact that listening to an open wolf is clearly a terrible fucking idea) and we lost when they quick hammered me. I think I was also one of the only players in that game to be healthily suspicious of the other scum. and we lost just because people weren't willing to/I couldn't get people to listen to me. so yes, my frustration threshold is maybe a bit lower than normal atm, but in this case I guess it was good that people weren't going with me.

that's about it

lemme know if there's anything here you wanna get back on or stuff you want more from me on

[Menalque]

the big personal problem I have with your play here is that just because you have a statistically-high scum hit rate, you wanted everyone to forego their own reads and listen to yours (and still feel it was the right thing to do even though it would have led to a guaranteed 1-2 town lynches from your perspective).

Like... I've disagreed with you all game on Dong. My reads matter just as much as yours from a general standpoint (and more to me personally, because I know I'm town). I didn't think the reasons you were scumreading Dong actually meant Dong was scum, and I explained the behaviors that I didn't think scum!Dong would do in this situation and mostly got responded to with variants of 'thinking anti-town behavior can come from town is bad'. And in this case I'm really fucking glad I've listened to myself there because at this point it's widely accepted that that read was spot-on.

I think there are times and places for lynching someone for poor play regardless of the implications that has about their alignment. But you can't just assume anyone who's playing to a lower standard than you're happy with must be scum.

Am I a perfect player? No, of course not. I make mistakes, and this game is one example of that. I got overly focused on dong. Do I think it was for a bad reason? Not really, I think that playing like dong gives scum a lot of leeway to play around you and puts towns in bad situations. I mean we’re in mylo today despite having 3 conf!town yesterday and this is with the gambit working. But now we’re in the situation where that play didn’t actually mean scum and we have to work around that.

If I was privileging my reads, it’s for the exact same reason you just gave: the only person I

know

I can trust is me. Even in late game I’m basically making a choice to trust that the percentage chance of the team being dong/icon is small enough that it’s bad play to make votes around it.

But if part of why you’re SRing me rn (which I think you are I’m not sure?) is that you felt I didn’t value your reads enough when they were really good then tbh you need to get over it. In this particular case you were right and I should have listened, but I think if we were in this situation 10 times it would have been a good move to lynch dong after D1. Partly bc that would also have freed me up to then refocus and look elsewhere for scum.

[Menalque]

The thing that has me questioning my previous townread on you most (besides Saudade flipping town) is actually something that I think you'd relate to - I felt like your near-obsessive tunneling on Dong in the first Day-and-a-half was anti-town. You've been pushing that slot to the detriment of paying attention to other slots. Any time you did give other slots the time of day, it was through the lens of whether or not they were scum with Dong (when I asked you why Datisi was town yesterday -outside of your read on Dong-, you did initially straight-up tell me that your primary motivator was Dong being scum and Datisi not making sense with Dong).
Tbh even if Dong was scum here, I feel as though an extremely narrow tunnel on him would be slightly anti-town because of how limiting it was to discussion.

And normally I wouldn't really see that as super scummy. But when my options have dwindled to you/Vex/Datisi, and you yourself have said that anti-town behavior should be treated as scummy yet you've been consistently anti-town, it starts to make me wonder if you did it on purpose.

PEdit: getting food, will respond later

Yeah, I mean that’s fair. That was a bad play of mine and I get why people can SR me for it. I’m a believer in the ABR school of thought on catching scum, as that was one of the first articles I read on the wiki and it’s something I’ve tried to emulate since then.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... em_Lynched

It’s something I’m reconsidering in my game because as I’ve already mentioned the getting people to follow me on stuff bit is actually one of my weak spots. And now that I’m thinking about the game more from a holistic pov I do think that dats/vex makes more and more sense. They’ve both consistently sheeped me throughout the game, which would make perfect sense knowing I was wrong. Let me lead the lynch, then let me take the fall for it.

I was thinking that their behaviour was pro-town bc they were the only ones looking at scummy behaviour the same way I was. But that makes sense from scum who see it as a chance to follow me on a push, then justify it by saying “yeah but the behaviour looked scummy and it was mena who forced it through”

[Menalque]

If you actually are scum here klick then gg bc you flew low enough under the radar that I never wanted you first and now you’re pretty much perfectly set to push me or whichever one of vex/dats isn’t your buddy for the win

[Menalque]

Final point is that I play by aggressively pursuing scum regardless of alignment. I want to create a highly pressured gamestate then watch how people react in that. Does it make the person being pressured behave scummily or townily? Are others opportunistic or genuine in their responses to it?

[Menalque]

I gotta reread the datisi and vex ISOs again and compare it to the joint ISO in 1949

[Menalque]

Yeah, I’m realising that part of the reason why I struggle to get the wagons I want through may be because I insist on doing things my way and that’s something I’ll try to avoid being so insistent on in future games. I received other feedback that was kinda similar recently as well, so I am trying to move in that direction, but it’s hard to switch instantaneously to doing things another way.

I had been working on the basis that if I was good enough at identifying scum then following this would lead to a pretty high success rate. I could be wrong, but I think RC is more or less of this approach in games and his game is respected as being very strong town

I don’t really wanna give a definitive pair because I haven’t actually gotten around to retreading all three of them yet, but if you need me to then I’d say it’s dats/vex by poe

I just don’t really see why klick would unvote me if he were scum? Like I think the number of worlds in which there’s a conf!scum between me and klick where I’m not getting lynched is v small, and I think scum!klick would know that and just leave his vote on. I guess it’s possible that he could have panicked that the townie thing to do would be to not have total certainty in me being scum so taken his vote off bc I came back and made those points in time, and he was hoping that dats/vex would come around beforehand to conf!scum one of us

But that just doesn’t seem as likely, esp as he could have just faked having left the thread himself

[Menalque]

Also I’ll take the post 1000 pagetop I guess

[Menalque]

@icon I mean if it is vex and dats (I still haven’t had time to ISO anyone (I’ll do it tomorrow and this is a firm commitment) then it doesn’t really matter if we do vex today unless you can get to a TR on me over dats

@dong have you finished rereading yet?

[Menalque]

VOTE: vex

[Menalque]

gg all

[Menalque]

Fuck me this was a stressful game

[Menalque]

@Mena Now you know how I felt in Newbie 1949 when Datisi was in the scum PT like "oh god I'm freaking out" every couple days.

I gotta say, I think datisi is an amazing scum partner haha, and that I probably did nearly as much freaking out as she did

[Menalque]

I’m happy to have the scum PT released no redactions

[Menalque]

Even tho we won would appreciate feedback from people

I think my main takeaway is that I need to focus on not tunnelling so hard even tho it worked out here

I was being honest when I said my game was heavily influenced by that ABR article tho, and I think it does make sense why that’s had a negative impact on my ability to get the lynches I want through apart from when I’ve been in newbie games and been more able to drive things by force

[Menalque]

I thought the game ended up kinda by chance being balanced bc I thought the setup was townsided but saud self-hammering brought it back to a point where it was winnable

[Menalque]

If anyone wants to see drunk!dats posting go to page 10

pls don’t kill me ur the one who didn’t redact it

[Menalque]

Pedit: you moTHERFUCKER

<3

[Menalque]

I think it’ll work less and less well as scum the further away my towngame moves from that

I’ll still push people, but I’ll try to tunnel them less. Thanks for the feedback:)

Yeah, I’m kinda surprised you didn’t track me? I did the Bella kill bc we thought datisi had the best odds of winning in 4p mylo if we didn’t win 6p mylo and we thought you were definitely gonna keep pushing me no matter what

We were so paranoid about you having a guilty on me and deliberately playing it off to try and get associatives haha

[Menalque]

pedit: what he said. Jeez I have a feeling we read into Dong and Icon way more than we needed to

Yeah but I still think we were right to spend so much time discussing it to make sure we were confident on what we thought. Imagine if we hadn’t discussed it and they had been doing everything we considered as a possibility:P

[Menalque]

Did you read this game RC?

[Menalque]

Do you have any feedback for us? Your feedback after ruby was actually really useful

[Menalque]

Ty for modding TL