Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Nachomamma8]

Because when Chara flipped, it was when scum-Chara had to flip or scum would have lost the game.

[Nachomamma8]

And the flip itself really doesn't make sense. Which means that it's either one hell of a coincidence or Chara was scum making sure that scum didn't instantly lose.

[Hectic]

Because when Chara flipped, it was when scum-Chara had to flip or scum would have lost the game.

why does scum!Chara put itself in that position in the first place? Go through day 2 bussing Fakran while also pushing to SPARE me, while knowing it will have to reverse it's scumread on Farkran the next day since it would mean an autoloss. What's the gameplan there; why bus Farkran at all?

[Nachomamma8]

When it was Day 3 and scum had the chance to instantly lose I was in Tennessee and not posting shit and Farkran was tunneling absentee me until he decided to self-vote - crazy as hell move in the first place, but not a move you make unless you see the writing on the wall and see your widely townread partner bailing you out.

[Nachomamma8]

Because when Chara flipped, it was when scum-Chara had to flip or scum would have lost the game.

why does scum!Chara put itself in that position in the first place? Go through day 2 bussing Fakran while also pushing to SPARE me, while knowing it will have to reverse it's scumread on Farkran the next day since it would mean an autoloss. What's the gameplan there; why bus Farkran at all?

Doubtful that Chara realized it was an autoloss until Bingle pointed it out in Day 3.

[Nachomamma8]

Why is what Chara did scummier than you townreading and towncasing Farkran and not FIGHTing him at all, until you did because of PoE? I see both flips as equally scummy.

I spent all day reading through Farkran and asking him questions and looking through his meta to the point where I was recalling random interactions he'd had with townies in other threads, I was quoting posts he'd have from other games. And yet, at the end of the day, despite towncasing him, I still expressed how unsure I felt about him several times. If I were scum, all of that posting would be an absolute waste; could have appealed to anyone else and made an ally, could have made a firmer town case and protected him, could have made a scum case and bussed him and got cred but did none of that.

Town sometimes looks sloppy. And most importantly, I DID NOT DERAIL A SCUM WAGON TO LYNCH TOWN WHEN THAT SCUM WAGON WOULD HAVE LEAD TO A SCUM LOSS.

[Nachomamma8]

I understand that not every one of my thoughts is easily trackable and that I'm a bit all over the place. Chara is more put together than I am. That doesn't make me scum. My progressions not making sense doesn't mean I'm scum, just means that I'm misunderstood. Chara saving the game for scum means that Chara is scum - there is no other way to put it.

[Nachomamma8]

And yes I'm hammering the point again and again and in a fashion that's almost comical but you don't find smoking guns like this in mafia EVER - the fact where Chara has reached a point where it's shrugging and going "yeah no nothing to say to that" should be a neon sign pointing out that I'm not bullshitting you here. Chara is scum who voted Chemist and said it wouldn't hurt anyone but Chemist in order to save Farkran so they wouldn't instantly lose the game. I make no sense as a Farkran scumpartner because it means on a day when a scum lynch = scum loss, scum did nothing but vote for scum the whole day. That doesn't happen. The narrative that says that I am scum and Chara is town makes absolutely no sense.

[Hectic]

Why is what Chara did scummier than you townreading and towncasing Farkran and not FIGHTing him at all, until you did because of PoE? I see both flips as equally scummy.

I spent all day reading through Farkran and asking him questions and looking through his meta to the point where I was recalling random interactions he'd had with townies in other threads, I was quoting posts he'd have from other games. And yet, at the end of the day, despite towncasing him, I still expressed how unsure I felt about him several times. If I were scum, all of that posting would be an absolute waste; could have appealed to anyone else and made an ally, could have made a firmer town case and protected him, could have made a scum case and bussed him and got cred but did none of that.

Town sometimes looks sloppy. And most importantly, I DID NOT DERAIL A SCUM WAGON TO LYNCH TOWN WHEN THAT SCUM WAGON WOULD HAVE LEAD TO A SCUM LOSS.

Is it a waste though? The towncase (hopefully) convinces people that Farkran is town. Expressing you're unsure after making the towncase isn't going to change anyone's minds; that's just you expressing an opinion. The case you made has evidence/posts and will change their minds.

[Nachomamma8]

And yes Chara sounds genuine but you have to look at all the information available to you, not just how you feel when reading ISOs. And the big picture says that Chara is scum and I am town.

[Chara]

posting towards, about, or to a scumpartner isn't a waste, it's called distancing, and putting work in where scum normally wouldn't need to is a valid tactic and once scum is capable of pulling off.

your progressions not making sense doesn't make you scum, that's true. your progressions not making sense to

you

is a bit more of a problem. an awareness that you aren't easily trackable can be mitigated by explaining yourself. you've listed lots of things you did in interacting with Farkran and you have a great memory of them, but why did you do it?

and Chara saving the game for scum means i'm scum MVP i guess, if that means a loss here. i didn't stick to my instincts where it mattered. i'm at least happy i didn't end up lynching Hectic because i think that would have felt worse.

pedit: one single mistake isn't the big picture. town fucks up. that's been your mantra this whole game. i really fucked up, once.

[Chara]

And yes I'm hammering the point again and again and in a fashion that's almost comical but you don't find smoking guns like this in mafia EVER - the fact where Chara has reached a point where it's shrugging and going "yeah no nothing to say to that" should be a neon sign pointing out that I'm not bullshitting you here. Chara is scum who voted Chemist and said it wouldn't hurt anyone but Chemist in order to save Farkran so they wouldn't instantly lose the game. I make no sense as a Farkran scumpartner because it means on a day when a scum lynch = scum loss, scum did nothing but vote for scum the whole day. That doesn't happen. The narrative that says that I am scum and Chara is town makes absolutely no sense.

well what do i say? we

would

have won if i'd voted Farkran there instead of Chemist, am i supposed to deny that this situation is my fault when it is? i even nearly pushed Amrun for voting Chemist there day 5 because i thought it was a major indicator she was scum after all, before rereading and realizing i'm the entire reason she did.

[Hectic]

okay, pals.
i really need to sleep.
Nacho, you raise really good points and i agree that point sure is smoky.
also i agree on the Psyche kills pointing more to Chara over you.
but ignoring that instance, i do think the rest of the game weighs towards Chara being town, and you scum.
i'm extremely sorry if i'm wrong but i've done a lot of rereading trying to convince myself Chara is scum and seeing it's actions as scum and i really struggle to in other places.

[Nachomamma8]

Well you're wrong. Next time don't ignore that instance.

[Nachomamma8]

There isn't an instance that makes me scum. It's not a body of evidence that makes Chara town, it's a feeling. It's good scum play. It didn't take risks. It hung in the background, it reacted to what town did.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm disappointed if we lose here because we shouldn't be losing here. Chara's point that I made up interactions with Farkran for towncred in the instance he flips scum is all good and well until the point where he did nothing but vote me on the day when scum needed to lynch scum or lose. And I know it's just one point and as a result it's something that's easy to dismiss but it is absolutely the point that matters.

[Nachomamma8]

There's no points against me other than my progressions not making sense which actually isn't scummy - don't you think if I spent so much time on my Farkran interactions that I'd figure out how to explain going from town to scum on him?

[Nachomamma8]

I've played this game for 10 years and suddenly I don't know how to get explain "I was townreading this person and now I'm scumreading them" in a way that is palatable or I wasn't particularly worried about it because finding scum is more important to a townie than looking town?

[Chara]

that feeling's only there because i'm town. i can't pull this off this consistently or this long as scum. your play this game has been messy and Farkran's has been off the wall, and between both of those and the way the game played you've had to take risks i'm sure you wouldn't have if you'd had control of the game, and they weren't optimal. so i don't have any way to argue that everything you did you did with a blatantly scum agenda, because you didn't. but neither did i, besides one instance where i was wrong on a vote.

[Nachomamma8]

you've had to take risks i'm sure you wouldn't have if you'd had control of the game

no.
being in a bad position doesn't mean doing nothing but crossbussing at a time when scum will lose if scum gets lynched; that is equivalent to conceding.

[Hectic]

There's no points against me other than my progressions not making sense which actually isn't scummy - don't you think if I spent so much time on my Farkran interactions that I'd figure out how to explain going from town to scum on him?

Reading back, I agreed with Amrun's points the previous day on how you seemed to come into that day with an agenda on her.

[Hectic]

I've played this game for 10 years and suddenly I don't know how to get explain "I was townreading this person and now I'm scumreading them" in a way that is palatable or I wasn't particularly worried about it because finding scum is more important to a townie than looking town?

But AAAAAA, you're so convincing

[Nachomamma8]

You've been unable to point to anything that I've done to carrying a scum agenda because the scum agenda doesn't exist. Saying that you can't fool someone for an entire game is just wrong??? Everyone has good scum games. Everyone has bad scum games. Everyone has good town games. Everyone has bad town games.

[Chara]

You've been unable to point to anything that I've done to carrying a scum agenda because the scum agenda doesn't exist. Saying that you can't fool someone for an entire game is just wrong??? Everyone has good scum games. Everyone has bad scum games. Everyone has good town games. Everyone has bad town games.

except for you, Nacho the scum god, who can't be scum because he's been playing for ten years and would be better than this?

[Nachomamma8]

There's no points against me other than my progressions not making sense which actually isn't scummy - don't you think if I spent so much time on my Farkran interactions that I'd figure out how to explain going from town to scum on him?

Reading back, I agreed with Amrun's points the previous day on how you seemed to come into that day with an agenda on her.

I went into yesterday and thinking that I was 100% dead and my most sense significant contribution would be shaking shit up on the way down and leaving some sort of guide to the next day. Amrun's reaction threw me into tunnelville which was big time my bad and made this harder than it needed to be.

But I am town. For all my flaws and weird ticks and weird rants I am town and if you vote me we lose. Please don't do that.