Mini Normal 2149 | Philosophers | Over

[Nauci]

Please counterclaim. It would make today so much easier.

I wanted to town read him for being so convinced that there's a role that cannot exist because maybe it means he doesn't have the kind of extra info that scum does, but maybe he's as dissociated from scum chat as he is from this thread

Anyway, I really think we need to flip Truth today and I really do think he's scum

[Blair]

We should never give up on our dreams, Nauci!

VOTE: Looker

Team work makes the dream work!

[Blair]

Anyway, I really think we need to flip Truth today and I really do think he's scum

Ok, maybe, but hear me out:

Spoiler:

[Blair]

If Truth

is

mafia, his partner is probably Looker anyway - given that Looker was the only person we were still waiting to hear confirmation from (everyone else had said they weren't Masons with Truth) when Truth changed his tune and admitted he wasn't a Mason.

Looker was pretty pointedly avoiding answering that question.

It makes sense to me that, if Truth is scum, they were debating whether or not to claim masons together (Truth's plan), Looker was stalling, and finally put his foot down and said Truth was on his own to dig out of this hole - then Truth revealed his lie.

So either way, I think Looker is a good choice today.

[Deimos27]

Official Vote Count 3.04

Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951) claimed to have solved all problems of philosophy in his "Tractatus", only to return 10 years later and reinvent the field in his "Philosophical Investigations". The influence of Wittgenstein's work on contemporary philosophy cannot be overstated, especially regarding his insights into language and meaning.

---

Elimination

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to hammer.

Dunnstral

(2): NDMath, Truth

Truth

(2): Dunnstral, Nauci

NDMath

(1): Glitch

Nauci

(1): Looker

Looker

(1): Blair

Not Voting

(0):

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-07-17 21:08:51).

Mod notes:

• 

[/area]

[Glitch]

I'm townreading Nauci and Glitch, it's between NDmath, Truth, and Looker for me

How much longer can Blair live before you start to suspect her?

---

• I think Nauci is noncommittal.
  
• I feel she's pseudo-distancing with Truth - she says she thinks he's scum, but she doesn't look like she's trying to flip him. She looks like she's hedging her bets on no one forming a wagon on him. If they do, she gets to jump on, saying "Well I suspected him the whole time".
  
• Blair's lying - I interact with everybody. Not everyone squats over their phone all day, looking at a fucking mafia thread. I don't know what these expectations are that I'm not meeting.
  
• I'd hope Nauci saying I'm either crazy or stupid would be beneath her.
  
• So Blair thinks I avoided mislynching Osuka, but bussed popopo?
  • And, depending on who she "vigged", she agreed with either my or Glitch's suspicions. I suspected GuiltyLion, Glitch suspected Cat Scratch Fever. The double standard isn't making sense to me.
• I question whether Nauci coached Truth in the scum PT, because her Post 2112 resembles Truth's Post 619, where he urged other people to start bandwagons that he was not going to be a part of.

I've been wondering if the reason you're set on pointing out that Nauci isn't using her vote was to point out that she is being noncommittal. It gave off the impression you didn't understand who she was SR'ing rather than just questioning why she isn't voting her SR. Did you truly believe that Nauci's 2049 didn't clearly show who she thinks is scum, or did you ask questions with the intent of trying to see why she has a SR without a vote on Truth?

More coming later, family is over for dinner.

[Nauci]

If Truth

is

mafia, his partner is probably Looker anyway - given that Looker was the only person we were still waiting to hear confirmation from (everyone else had said they weren't Masons with Truth) when Truth changed his tune and admitted he wasn't a Mason.

Looker was pretty pointedly avoiding answering that question.

It makes sense to me that, if Truth is scum, they were debating whether or not to claim masons together (Truth's plan), Looker was stalling, and finally put his foot down and said Truth was on his own to dig out of this hole - then Truth revealed his lie.

So either way, I think Looker is a good choice today.

This feels like an even shakier theory than mine

[Nauci]

It could be just as easy to believe that Truth came "clean" about his gambit because he knew Looker wasn't in a mason or scum channel with him and therefore obviously wouldn't claim with him

[Nauci]

Glitch, he'd have to ignore the existence of my 2140 as well in order to frame my vote for Truth the way he did

[Blair]

It could be just as easy to believe that Truth came "clean" about his gambit because he knew Looker wasn't in a mason or scum channel with him and therefore obviously wouldn't claim with him

But Truth continued talking about his "buddies" for a while after it became clear Looker was the only option left.

Do you think Truth's (non-Looker) partner came in to the thread and said "I'm not masons with Truth" and he still stuck with it for a while afterwards, knowing he would be strung up once Looker answered?

Those posts right before Truth came clean, where everyone but Looker had denied being Masons and Truth still tried to claim he was one, only make sense to me if Truth is scum with Looker or Truth isn't scum at all.

[Looker]

Spoiler:

I'm townreading Nauci and Glitch, it's between NDmath, Truth, and Looker for me

How much longer can Blair live before you start to suspect her?

---

• I think Nauci is noncommittal.
  
• I feel she's pseudo-distancing with Truth - she says she thinks he's scum, but she doesn't look like she's trying to flip him. She looks like she's hedging her bets on no one forming a wagon on him. If they do, she gets to jump on, saying "Well I suspected him the whole time".
  
• Blair's lying - I interact with everybody. Not everyone squats over their phone all day, looking at a fucking mafia thread. I don't know what these expectations are that I'm not meeting.
  
• I'd hope Nauci saying I'm either crazy or stupid would be beneath her.
  
• So Blair thinks I avoided mislynching Osuka, but bussed popopo?
  • And, depending on who she "vigged", she agreed with either my or Glitch's suspicions. I suspected GuiltyLion, Glitch suspected Cat Scratch Fever. The double standard isn't making sense to me.
• I question whether Nauci coached Truth in the scum PT, because her Post 2112 resembles Truth's Post 619, where he urged other people to start bandwagons that he was not going to be a part of.

I've been wondering if the reason you're set on pointing out that Nauci isn't using her vote was to point out that she is being noncommittal. It gave off the impression you didn't understand who she was SR'ing rather than just questioning why she isn't voting her SR. Did you truly believe that Nauci's 2049 didn't clearly show who she thinks is scum, or did you ask questions with the intent of trying to see why she has a SR without a vote on Truth?

More coming later, family is over for dinner.

I wanted her to commit with a vote.

---

• Why does Blair think I'm counterclaiming her?
  
• I don't see what prompted her to say I'm not reading the game, other than my remark that not everyone babysits the thread. Babysit and read aren't the same thing.
  
• Nauci once again pushes that she wishes I was killed despite me wagoning scum!popopo and not town!osuka and her doing the opposite. I think she's trying to buddy Blair. She also doesn't specify exactly what I've "disassociated" from. It strikes me as a "Deny! Deny! Deny!" campaign.
  
• Blair is catastrophic. She's two for two in the games I've played with her.
  
• She says I avoided commenting on Truth's claim, but I posted that it was self-resolving. "Pointedly" is her own subjective exaggeration, btw. And, on top of that, she's saying that I would be dragged around by whatever plan Truth made if I were scum with him. None of this makes sense to me, other than Blair being conceited and thinking she's a far superior player to me.

[Blair]

Hint: I suggested you weren't reading the game because you suggested I could be scum.

This could have been inferred by reading the post I linked when I said it.

[Blair]

Also: I never once claimed I was a superior player to you. You are the one calling me "catastrophic" and calling my out-of-game experience in to question - I don't think I'm the one measuring e-peens here.

[Blair]

You also keep fixating on how I'm supposedly shading you for "not babysitting the thread" - another thing I have never said.

I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt on that one, though. Maybe you misunderstood what I meant by you never interacting directly with anyone.

What I meant by that was that, even when someone replies to your post a mere minute or two after you've posted, you don't reply until 18-24 hours later.

I'm not asking you to babysit the thread - it just feels like you post once, then as soon as you click submit you immediately close the browser, shut off the computer, and run into another room until tomorrow.

You don't need to be around all the time, or even most of the time, but when you ARE around - be around.

I can't make you do that, of course, and I don't expect to. I'm just explaining why it's hard to get a good read on someone who posts a 24-hour recap once a day.

[Blair]

She says I avoided commenting on Truth's claim, but I posted that it was self-resolving. "Pointedly" is her own subjective exaggeration, btw.

We asked everyone to answer if they were masons with Truth. Everyone answered but you. You pointedly ignored that question, even as we were openly discussing that you were the only person left to answer it.

This is what I mean by "not reading." Am I to believe you just missed that entire conversation at the time?

[NDMath]

Popo's posts about uncleared players.

Spoiler: Many

LicketyQuickety - town lean his vote on me was bad but quick likes an illogical bad push as much as anyone so it doesnt surprise me he voted me. his incessant pushing on truth early feels town motivated coming from this particular player.
NorwegianboyEE - town lean i explained already
Looker - town lean responded well to my request for reads even if we dont completely agree
osuka - null town feels like a saudade type player where he just calls people retards and argues. hard to read, but the argument with truth seemed genuine enough
Truth - any read i have is irrelevant, mechanics will sort. im more inclined to believe the claim than not.
Glitch - null seems like a noob. i find this type of player hard to sort. at least looks like hes trying.
Nauci - null his early posts pinged me as forced, he has been posting more thoughtfully since.
Candy Shop - null dont really have an impression of this slot, this is the NL guy right? ok i checked his ISO. idk
ndmath - null no impression of this slot
mavsfan41 - null-scum him coming in with a vote immediately after i call him out is not a good look
GuiltyLion - scum lean i explained
Cat Scratch Fever - scummy his vote was opportunistic and his iso has been bad, handing out townreads like candy and little scumreads is mafia indicative especially early game

Cat scratch showing up and posting again on cue after Blairs push. Won't vote ndmath because *reasons* . Glitches case is good even if it just reiterates what i said in more words.

Cat scratchs hop on osuka is opportunistic as fuck. Notice how she only votes osuka after norwe indicates an interest

I’m not sure i’m feeling either a Glitch or CSF lynch today, but i could definitely go for either NDMath or Osuka.

Now osuka is a very easy wagon to park a vote on. This is because a) he has been tunneling truth for being stupid, which I think is NAI but also easy to point to as "scummy" and b) his posting other than that hasn't felt super engaged, which again i find NAI on day 1. And c) one of the most active players in the game just said they'd be fine with a wagon there.

VOTE: osuka

I think I prefer this over Glitch, who I'm not sure isn't just new town who scumreads people for not explaining reads.

Mainly sheeping Nauci's metacase tbh. I also think him forgetting to use his vote is scum indicative

There are two problems with this vote that I see. The first is that it was only made after tacit approval from norwe of an osuka wagon just a few posts earlier. in fact, prior to norwes post approving of the osuka wagon, cat scratch had never said he scumread osuka. The last definitive read on osuka cat gave is here

Why are they both town?

As for your leads questions, I was suspecting osuka before that if you check my earlier posts.

Based on their back and forth, I think they both believe in their pushes. I can also understand why they each scumread the other even though I disagree with it.

They're both independently towny as well. Quick has demonstrated that he has an unusual process of scumhunting, and I think his process is hard to fake.

I'm gut townreading osuka.

Why is osuka scummy for thinking you could be lying about being a mason but not wanting to take the risk of pushing you? A lot of people have expressed disbelief in your mason claim yet no one is pushing for your lynch off the top of my head.

Holy shit

and until the post cat made voting osuka he had not mentioned him as a scumread as far as I can tell. So osuka has gone from a gut townread, in a TvT with quick according to cat scratch, to now being cats big scumread.

Now as for the reason for voting osuka, cat scratch cited sheeping Nauci. Nauci isn't even voting osuka, he's voting NDmath, so you're sheeping someone who isn't even convinced of their own point. Id like cat to elaborate on the osuka read, is it just the push on nauci you find scummy cat?

Also cat calling the 3 votes on him as a counterwagon to ND is rich considering I voted her LONG BEFORE ANY ND WAGON and Blair replaced in and came with a fresh scumread. Glitch's vote is the only thing that could fit under that description and his reasoning was fine IMO.

i think one of looker dunnstral or ndmath is scum, maybe 2. like the fact that both those major wagons were on town and it took that long for either of them to go through points to an inactive scumteam.

Spoiler: Truth

I am a Miller Mason

im going to choose to believe this for now

no we are not lynching the claimed mason.

if truth is not a mason it will come out eventually

Quick, if you are town i implore you to abandon this push. It’s quite a reach to assume someone is scum for claiming miller mason, and then suggesting they will only tell the truth when they’ve already stated their name has no bearing on behaviour.

Oh, you are trying to dialog with a SR. That's interesting. "shoot first ask questions later"?

Having a dialogue with your scumread is natural and has many benefits to town. Don’t like how you’re trying to portray it negatively here.

No offense, but you are totally wrong here.

I really hate this white knite of Truth here. I've stated WHY I think they STARTED with a truth gimmick, namely, because they said they would crumb their mason buddies when there's not really a reason to do that unless you are 1) new OR 2) establishing a truth gimmick. The fact they know what a crumb is means the purpose for stating they would crumb is pointless, since it should be fairly apparent that they would do that regardless, hence, it's 2. Which means they have already broken character in favor of meeting their win con.

I would also point you to the last half of 44, which is an established pattern for me at this point in my Town play. Remember when I was tunneled on you and you were Scum? Yeah, think I am doing that here only to someone else.

can you at least accept that if he is lying about his role it will become apparent when no one claims mason with him

I have buddies

Given this ^ it's a hood and not actually masons.

this makes sense. i dont see it likely there being 3 masons right?

still, i dont think outing the hood, masons or not, is a good idea.

mason miller makes very little sense as a role no? if a cop checks, masons can just come in and say he claimed miller to us in our masonry, then what...

popo, why is it a bad idea to out if I'm just in a neighbourhood?

I would like this answered if possible, popo.

gives scum info they may not have

u could be lying and town. town lies about shit constantly in current site meta

still, i dont think outing the hood, masons or not, is a good idea.

mason miller makes very little sense as a role no?

if a cop checks, masons can just come in and say he claimed miller to us in our masonry, then what...

Do you think Truth is telling the truth about his role?

i don't know. Probably not.

like if truth changed his claim and said he was in a hood, then that would make me look at truth very hard, and if that becomes the case later on, we will cross that bridge, but as of now his lynch just can't happen today

this tunnel is bizarre. its almost like osuka saw something wrong in the play of truth, and is attacking the "wrongness" more than scummyness. it's a line of attack that isn't rooted in scumhunting, but more in playing the game "wrong", and osuka feels like he's latched onto it and refuses to see much else.

Are people doubting my mason claim because I didn't die? I think maybe mafia didn't target me because they were scared of doctors being on me. Which is great!

ima continue osukas legacy by calling you brainless here, dummy

Spoiler: Nauci

Interesting. I would like everyone to know I am a

Miller Mason

. I have buddies but I won't be revealing who they are at this time. For now, I will act as their representative.

We would like a nice clean thread clear of profanities. Whenever giving a read or placing a vote, we would like a reason attached as to avoid people having to ask for the reasons. Thank you, we'll let you know if there's any updates.

Once upon a time I would probably have thought this was weird but at this point in 2020 I could be suddenly devoured by a 99 tentacled cthulhu monster appearing out of nowhere in the California sky and be entirely unsurprised

I can already see that osuka is approving the push and shading me. Do you think this could be him testing the room to see if there's support?

this is a retarded misrep

Are you aware that the average teenager on Fortnite is more polite than you are

both of these posts are forced as fuck.

vote: nauci

Naucis meta case on osuka is actually decent. I didn't like cat scratch's jump on the wagon, but there are some valid points and I don't think it's a bad choice if I can't get more csf enthusiasm

Spoiler: Looker

Do you feel we have a legitimate claim 7 pages in?

I don't think there is a rule that you can't claim within 7 pages...

What do YOU think about the claim? Do you believe they are millar?

I think I'm accustomed to Saudade claiming mason every game, so I think I could care less. I was trying to offset my bias with your opinion.

...

I kinda don't like this post.

-Apathy
-laziness
-voting for no reason

Don't like anything about this post actually.

• I don't see how it's apathy when I'm asking you questions. Apathy would be ignoring you entirely.
  
• Lazy is a strong accusation to make. Lazy compared to who and using what metrics?
  
• I definitely have a reason for voting you. Is your accusation your way of asking for it?
  Voting you will help me sort you, Glitch, and osuka all at the same time.

Looker, why did you vote for Quick?

To sort more players than Quick

lol this game is going to be a clash of egos huh

That's any game where the players are insecure. Don't let that poison you.

Why with all this to go on would we still be in RVS?

Simple - a mason claim is self-resolving: Truth should die tonight or get lynched tomorrow. I'm not fond of people hijacking my attention as a form of distraction. There are still 11 other people that I have to go through.

I'm just gonna say Looker really bugs me with the very little contribution he has. There's nothing good he contributed here.

Would you prefer an overexaggeration of word vomit that no one's going to read? Please challenge my thoughts: With what that I've presented do you disagree? Are you accusing me of playing it safe with my first two posts of the game...? Your expectations are unclear.

Glitch and Looker, remind me why you two are voting Quick?

Is this sarcasm? Everything here is written down...forever...why would you need to be reminded of something...? The intent is to sort.

---

I should have more time to post this weekend; sorry I've been so busy.

do you have any reads

Looker needs to give some reads/any reads

Do you really feel telegraphed sheeping is enough to prove you're town? If you were to flip town, would you want us to lynch GuiltyLion next?

when did i suggest it proves that im town? all i said was his vote left out the KEY fact that i am norwes vote slave atm, which make the dissonance suggested in his accusation obviously false.

My question is how long will this shtick go on? "Norway told me" isn't going to be a valid excuse.

that is the question, it'll stop when i feel like it is the best answer i can give u

nope. listen Looker, blair is scum here.

Spoiler: Dunnstral

Oh and mavsfans(??????) Still has his rvs vote on me. Mavsfans do u think I'm scum? U haven't found anything suspicious in 20 pages?

Why are you trying to no lynch?

Have you read the game

Spoiler: Glitch

that glitch wall is funny since i had stopped the vote slaving by the time he made that post lol

attacking me for the vote slaving, there's no scumhunting there. it was a fun joke with norwe that evolved into a pretty unique reaction test that stimulated a lot of discussion.

glitch attacks me for the slaving, after i had stopped, and he doesn't even acknowledge that the slaving had stopped by that point (just a little further up the page!). i'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt that he hadn't seen my vote on cat, but its a bad look.

@Glitch now that i'm no longer norwe's vote slave are you still comfortable with your vote.

Spoiler: NDMath

I read NDs ISO. its definitely noncommittal. He calls guilty scum but doesn't vote him, then when called out does vote him.

I interpreted the post as being annoyed they didn't have as many townreads as they would like, and picked you because of prior experience and not having posted as much as other slots.

This as the reason for voting someone is...not good. And gl has posted a lot i feel.

I scumread candyshop because of his no hang argument and lack of things I see town motivation in.

Why is the nolynch suggestion scummy?

So he's either mason or mafia. He isn't be the hang today, so I'm not gonna give further comment until it's a day we could realistically hang him.

scumslip?

By some of the meta argument it supports the conclusion I'm scum this game so I'm bringing it up before someone else does.

this is weird also? what in particular does it support ?

id like an explanation from ndmath of the similarities between his play in this game and the completed scum game

@norwe I don't know. They could be buddies, or she could see a mislynch coming and be defending him for town cred. One other thing i found weird is that cat scratch was defending nd, calling him town. And then suggested that the wagon on her was a counterwagon to the ND wagon, which seems to imply that nd is scum

vote:ndmath

Truth: Says to not hang yet, and 1419 shows some foreshadowing of "if he changes his claim", which is interesting.
Nauci: Pinged him early on, transitioned into null to townlean.
Looker: Asks for reads, townleans the slot, then pretty much forgets about Looker.
Dunn: scumleans the slot and groups him in lurkers.
Glitch: Complains about Glitch scumreading his vote slaving and that's it.
ND: Went from ND doesn't exist to heavy scumread quite a ways before he was forced to claim.


It supports Blair's proposed scumteam.
Dunnstral looks the best but not by much.
UNVOTE: dunnstral

[Nauci]

If that's your theory, why aren't you voting Looker?

[Glitch]

nope. listen Looker, blair is scum here.

Would popo say this when he was 100% caught and grasping for any hope of staying alive... if Looker were scum? I wouldn't put it past him necessarily but if Looker is scum this is kind of theatrical on popo's part. If they are scum together, and popo wanted Looker to push Blair in an effort to keep himself alive, regardless of whether or not Looker would cooperate with that, wouldn't popo just tell Looker to make a case against Blair via their scum thread? But if popo were scum and Looker were town and popo was grasping at any possibility to stay afloat, then he would post 1853 as a sorry attempt to get Looker to vote Blair with him and save himself another day, since Looker expressed a lack of trust in Blair in 1768 and then had literally nothing to input whatsoever on the vigilante slot being claimed by two people when he posted 1850. It makes me lean just a little more towards town on Looker.

I'm at Truth/Dunn scumteam as of now.

Dunnstral looks the best but not by much.

This progression is because you looked at how popo interacted with each player, right? Was there anything that changed your read on Dunnstral from his activity between 2058 and 2165 or was it exclusively the popo analysis?

NDmath why is popo @ Dunnstral post 1762 included in your list of posts that help you sort players? How is 1762 AI of Dunnstral, particularly why does it make you SR him less? Do you not think this could be a super easy SvS comment?

What is interesting to you about popo's 1419 where he is "foreshadowing if Truth changes his claim?" Based on what your comment on the bottom of your post says, I assume that means you think popo knew Truth would be changing his claim later in the game, therefore Truth is scum with popo. You think this is the case? Then why aren't you voting for Truth? Do you have evidence that makes Looker more scummy? If you have a SR on Truth, why isn't your vote on him? Or at least on Looker, even though I think there's a few things pointing to Looker and popo not really being scum together. If your reads are scum on those two players, where's your vote?

Also. Why, in your last post, did you completely ignore my second request for you to answer these questions?

[Blair]

Popo was pretty much caught-scum lolposting by that point (1853) so I wouldn't read too much into it.

It was a direct response to my post immediately above it, where I told Looker Popo was caught-scum, so context makes it NAI in my view.

[Nauci]

Popo's posts about uncleared players.

Truth: Says to not hang yet, and 1419 shows some foreshadowing of "if he changes his claim", which is interesting.
Nauci: Pinged him early on, transitioned into null to townlean.
Looker: Asks for reads, townleans the slot, then pretty much forgets about Looker.
Dunn: scumleans the slot and groups him in lurkers.
Glitch: Complains about Glitch scumreading his vote slaving and that's it.
ND: Went from ND doesn't exist to heavy scumread quite a ways before he was forced to claim.


It supports Blair's proposed scumteam.
Dunnstral looks the best but not by much.
UNVOTE: dunnstral

Can you explain your reasoning for how you evaluated Popopo's interactions with others as being alignment indicative in any particular direction?

[Blair]

Where did Dunnstral go?

[Dunnstral]

I'm here

[Dunnstral]

I'm eyeing 2165

it comes after Blair starts pushing a Truth + Looker team

[Nauci]

Hey so

Can we talk about how NDMath's posting this entire game is literally so scummy that I cannot believe he's still alive?

There's not a single shred of consistent narrative, deep thought, and genuinely town-perspective posting in that ISO, and every post at this point feels like he's got a timer on his phone for when he's due to be prodded and will come in to drop something that ever, ever so slightly resembles effort.

I've seen more effort to scum hunt and figure out the game from Looker, who has apparently just been reading an entirely different game than the rest of us, than from NDMath's posts.

[Nauci]

I feel like the only thing that has been in my column for town!NDM are the interactions w/ popopo, but none of the interactions were ever particularly strong or telling.