TheGoldenParadox's Mini Normal Review, October 2020

[implosion]

/in to mod a 13p mini

Setup:
13 players

Town Indecisive Jailkeeper

Town Even-Night Neapolitan
Town Odd-Night Doctor

Town Universal Backup

Town Mason
Town Mason

Town 2-Shot Neighborizer

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

Mafia Traffic Analyst
Mafia 2-Shot Rolestopper
Mafia Goon

[implosion]

Primary: mastina
Secondary: schadd_

[TheGoldenParadox]

ooh yay i got some awesome reviewers )

so what i'm going for in this setup is to try to give as many players as possible agency (hence the low number of vts) and emphasize dayplay

[mastina]

so what i'm going for in this setup is to try to give as many players as possible agency (hence the low number of vts) and emphasize dayplay

The problem is that the former tends to interfere with the latter--in particular, right now the setup is extremely townsided because universal backup + masonx2 is in of itself strong but having an investigative on top of that, not to mention the safety of the jailkeeper/doctor, mean that there's a very heavy emphasis on roles and night actions.

What I'd do to help balance this is replace the universal backup with a fruit vendor, which brings the setup to a more reasonable starting point while keeping the general theme (since fruit vendor, while a night action, doesn't give the town much).

[TheGoldenParadox]

okay, let's do that!

Town Indecisive Jailkeeper

Town Even-Night Neapolitan
Town Odd-Night Doctor

Town Fruit Vendor

Town Mason
Town Mason

Town 2-Shot Neighborizer

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

Mafia Traffic Analyst
Mafia 2-Shot Rolestopper
Mafia Goon


is there a good way to keep that balance while spreading out roles more (for example, making both the neapolitan and doctor 1-shot roles, and/or split the jailkeeper into an even/odd night pair?)

[schadd_]

i think agency is something that's hard to kick up by giving town roles to more different people - in particular, any time you spread those out, you are taking away mafia's agency to efficiently kill power roles (relatedly, splitting up town roles will pretty much always make things better for town). rolestopper is a good idea here though. neighborizer, communicative roles in general are probably helpful for what you are thinking of too. in general i think VT is just not so much a limiting role, you still have plenty to think about.

agree that the first one was wickedly townsided. still kind of uneasy about this one: there are two protectives and multiple ways to get clears (i.e. the mason and neapolitan) which has a way of spinning out of control if mafia pick their kill targets in an unfortunate way. i think you could help this by making the jailkeeper just a roleblocker, which lets it also get affected by the rolestopper (you can't use rolestopper to prevent your kill target from getting protected)

[TheGoldenParadox]

alright. keep it indecisive, or change the gating in a different way?

[TheGoldenParadox]

i'm also good completely removing the neapolitan, or switching it to a vanilla cop, if that makes for fewer clears.

[schadd_]

opened this earlier today and then forgot about it

gating roleblocker in a different way would actually be good. i doubt indecisive actually effects it much, roleblocker is searching around for the nightkiller usually. something like 2-shot or odd night or non-consecutive night would be good.

thinking about it i'm not so worried about the neapolitan because theres so few VTs. so with those changes this is probably all good

[TheGoldenParadox]

Town 2-Shot Roleblocker

Town Even-Night Neapolitan
Town Odd-Night Doctor

Town Fruit Vendor

Town Mason
Town Mason

Town 2-Shot Neighborizer

Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie

Mafia Traffic Analyst
Mafia 2-Shot Rolestopper
Mafia Goon

alright, i think i put everything you said? let's see what mastina thinks.

[mastina]

I actually like it (well as much as I can like a setup that is this pr-heavy anyway ). The neapolitan can get three innocents, but no definitive guilties; the town isn't overwhelmingly strong or overwhelmingly weak; the scum have reasonable counterplay to the town roles but not absolute counterplay with an inability to perfectly counter all the town power roles.

The game will be very pr-heavy and when claims come out, this will be a bit of a trainwreck of people wondering wtf is going on with that many pr claims and there will be issues sorting them out and telling what's town and what's not, and due to the power roles there is a fair amount of swing involved, but I feel like it is Normal, and it is reasonably close to balanced.

So from here, we need the roles and their role results.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Spoiler: Vanilla Townie

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ None!

Attributes

:
~ None!

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: 2-Shot Roleblocker

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

2-Shot Roleblocker

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ Twice during the game, at Night, you may roleblock a player in the game by sending a PM to the moderator. If your action succeeds, that player's active abilities will be blocked that Night.

Attributes

:
~ None!

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Even-Night Neapolitan

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are an

Even-Night Neapolitan

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ Each even-numbered Night, you may investigate a player by sending a PM to the moderator. If your action succeeds, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

Attributes

:
~ None!

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Odd-Night Doctor

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are an

Odd-Night Doctor

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ Each odd-numbered Night, you may protect a player by sending a PM to the moderator. If your action succeeds, that player will be protected from one kill that Night.

Attributes

:
~ None!

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Fruit Vendor

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

Fruit Vendor

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ Each Night, you may give fruit to a player by sending a PM to the moderator. If your action succeeds, your target will be informed that they received fruit (but not who sent it).

Attributes

:
~ None!

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Mason

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

Mason

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ None!

Attributes

:
~ You know that [player] is Town-aligned, and may speak to them in this private topic at all times.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: 2-Shot Neighborizer

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

2-Shot Neighborizer

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ Twice during the game, at Night, you may neighborize a player by sending a PM to the moderator. If your action succeeds, regardless of whether you live or die, that player will be added to your Neighborhood at the start of the next Day.

Attributes

:
~ You have a Neighborhood here, where you may post at any time.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Traffic Analyst

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

Traffic Analyst

, and aligned with the

Mafia

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ You or any of your teammates may perform the factional kill once per Night phase.
~ Each Night, you may investigate a player by sending a PM to the moderator. If your action succeeds, you will learn whether or not that player is able to privately communicate with another living player (you cannot distinguish between a player who is alone in a private topic, and a player who does not have private topic access at all).

Attributes

:
~ The other Mafia members are [player] and [player]. You share a factional thread located here.
~ You may not investigate a player and kill a player in the same Night phase.

You win if at least one

Mafia

member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: 2-Shot Rolestopper

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

2-Shot Rolestopper

, and aligned with the

Mafia

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ You or any of your teammates may perform the factional kill once per Night phase.
~ Twice during the game, at Night, you may rolestop a player by sending a PM to the moderator. If your action succeeds, other Night actions will be unable to affect that player in any way.

Attributes

:
~ The other Mafia members are [player] and [player]. You share a factional thread located here.
~ You may not rolestop a player and kill a player in the same Night phase.

You win if at least one

Mafia

member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

Spoiler: Mafia Goon

PlayerName

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

Goon

, and aligned with the

Mafia

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ You or any of your teammates may perform the factional kill once per Night phase.

Attributes

:
~ The other Mafia members are [player] and [player]. You share a factional thread located here.

You win if at least one

Mafia

member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

i'll post the results pms and ruleset in a bit, just gotta get everything together

[TheGoldenParadox]

Neopolitan:

Your action was successful. Your target is a Vanilla Townie.

Your action was successful. Your target is not a Vanilla Townie.

Your action failed, and you received no result.

Fruit Vendor Target:

You received a piece of fruit last Night.

Neighborizer Target:

You were neighborized last night, and were added to a Neighborhood with [player] (and [player]). Your role name has not been changed, and you may post in the neighborhood at all times.

Traffic Analyst:

Your action was successful. Your target is capable of private communication with another living player.

Your action was successful. Your target is not capable of private communication with another living player.

Your action failed, and you received no result.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Spoiler: Rules

Rules

1. If you’re tempted to skim the rules, here are the ones more unique to my ruleset:
   
   
2. This game will use Reasonable Action Resolution, NOT Natural Action Resolution. They will resolve similarly in almost all cases, but keep this in mind.
   
3. This
   is my color. Don’t use it or otherwise attempt to impersonate the mod.
   
4. Once you are dead, do not post in the main thread. No exceptions.
   
5. PM me all Night Actions, unless you are a member of the Mafia, in which case you can just bold the action in your PT.
   
6. All Private Topics are open at all times during the Night and Day.
   
7. I do not have a high tolerance for toxicity. This is a game, so treat it as such. Personal attacks are not tolerated and will earn you consequences.

1. Obviously, all site-wide rules apply.
   
2. If any rule is modified or added by me, I will inform the players in-thread.
   
3. Please regard these rules. Have fun. Please don’t make me replace you.
   
4. PM me or post
   @mod
   in thread to get my attention.
   
5. Please use vote tags to vote, and avoid abbreviation. You can vote using
   

   Code: Select all

   [vote]TheGoldenParadox[/vote]

   I will be using Thesp’s autormated votecounter, so spell names out fully whenever possible. Vote gambits are at your own risk: if I think it’s a vote, it’s a vote.
   
6. Follow your win condition. Gambits are fine, while deliberate gamethrowing isn’t. Make the game fun and fair.
   
7. Be respectful to me and your fellow players. It’s a game. Don’t take stuff personally.
   
8. If you’re V/LA, tell me in thread or via PM. I may extend the day if a V/LA player cannot post.
   
9. If you’re going to be V/LA for more than 5 days with no posting at all or minimal posting, just ask for replacement via PM. Otherwise, try not to replace out. It makes the game more tedious and less fun for everyone. If you do replace out, notify me via PM, not in the thread.
   
10. Don’t quote my PMs, either real or fabricated. Paraphrasing is allowed.
    
11. Don’t talk about other ongoing games here!
    Also, don’t talk about this game outside of here and/or your PTs. This rule is important!
    
12. Do not post a video or image that contains any game-related information.
    
13. Don’t use cryptography or hidden/encrypted text. Breadcrumbing is okay, but don’t try to get past this rule. Try not to use text smaller than the text I’m using right now.
    
14. No provable randomness of any kind.
    
15. Depending on the severity of the offence, I may take disciplinary action including warning, force-replacement, or modkill.
    
16. Have fun!

Deadlines

1. Day phases will last 10 days.
   
2. Night phases will last 48 hours.
   
3. if for any reason the deadline is extended this will be announced in thread.
   
4. Players will be prodded after 48 hours of inactivity during the day. If players are on V/LA, their prod timer runs at half speed. Prod timers run at half speed during weekends.
   
5. If a player, after prodded, doesn’t post for 24 hours, or receives 3 prods over the course of the game, they will be replaced. If a player posts while I am searching for a replacement, they will be allowed to continue in the game.
   
6. Posts that do not contain game content (“prodges”) will not count for purposes of prod timers.
   
7. Prod-dodging twice will count the same as one prod. Prod-dodging the third time will incur a force-replacement. Be active!

Spoiler: Sample Vanilla Townie Role PM

Vanilla Townie

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ None!

Attributes

:
~ None!

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

[implosion]

I'm gonna go ahead and list this as passed in the normal queue OP though feel free to keep discussing changes to rules/pms/etc, just since the setup was passed and it's not up for a couple games.

[mastina]

My only concern is on the use of RAR, when Normal Games technically have an existing natural action resolution that is expected to be used--but I think that's a call I want

implosion

as the Normal Game listmod to make, since it's very much an executive call, above my paygrade, on what to make (it doesn't matter to me either way, but might matter to him, I dunno what precedent he has for that specifically).

In terms of roles, results, and all rules aside from the one I want implosion to make the call on, this gets a /pass from me, as that's the one and only concern I have.

[TheGoldenParadox]

i personally prefer RAR - it's an easier to use action resolution system for me as a mod and a player, and i think that generally it's better at resolving ambiguity. that being said, especially in this game i don't really think it matters, so i'm good with switching to NAR if it creates less hassle.

[implosion]

Yeah, I've generally been of the opinion there that having a standard is the important thing because situations where your action resolution scheme matters are exceedingly rare in normal games. This game being a good example, where the only two roles that could even conceivably interact are the roleblocker and the rolestopper and it's obvious how they do so because it's impossible for them to conflict. It's very typical in that way. So yeah, you should resolve them with NAR, but it is effectively identical so you're free to privately actually do the resolution with RAR if that conceptually jives better with you :p

[TheGoldenParadox]

Sounds good, I'll edit my ruleset.

[TheGoldenParadox]

Spoiler: Rules

Rules

1. If you’re tempted to skim the rules, here are the ones more unique to my ruleset:
   
   
2. This
   is my color. Don’t use it or otherwise attempt to impersonate the mod.
   
3. Once you are dead, do not post in the main thread. No exceptions.
   
4. PM me all Night Actions, unless you are a member of the Mafia, in which case you can just bold the action in your PT.
   
5. All Private Topics are open at all times during the Night and Day.
   
6. I do not have a high tolerance for toxicity. This is a game, so treat it as such. Personal attacks are not tolerated and will earn you consequences.

1. Obviously, all site-wide rules apply.
   
2. If any rule is modified or added by me, I will inform the players in-thread.
   
3. Please regard these rules. Have fun. Please don’t make me replace you.
   
4. PM me or post
   @mod
   in thread to get my attention.
   
5. Please use vote tags to vote, and avoid abbreviation. You can vote using
   

   Code: Select all

   [vote]TheGoldenParadox[/vote]

   I will be using Thesp’s autormated votecounter, so spell names out fully whenever possible. Vote gambits are at your own risk: if I think it’s a vote, it’s a vote.
   
6. Follow your win condition. Gambits are fine, while deliberate gamethrowing isn’t. Make the game fun and fair.
   
7. Be respectful to me and your fellow players. It’s a game. Don’t take stuff personally.
   
8. If you’re V/LA, tell me in thread or via PM. I may extend the day if a V/LA player cannot post.
   
9. If you’re going to be V/LA for more than 5 days with no posting at all or minimal posting, just ask for replacement via PM. Otherwise, try not to replace out. It makes the game more tedious and less fun for everyone. If you do replace out, notify me via PM, not in the thread.
   
10. Don’t quote my PMs, either real or fabricated. Paraphrasing is allowed.
    
11. Don’t talk about other ongoing games here!
    Also, don’t talk about this game outside of here and/or your PTs. This rule is important!
    
12. Do not post a video or image that contains any game-related information.
    
13. Don’t use cryptography or hidden/encrypted text. Breadcrumbing is okay, but don’t try to get past this rule. Try not to use text smaller than the text I’m using right now.
    
14. This game will use Natural Action Resolution. If you need me to clarify potential role interactions, PM me or bold in-thread.
    
15. No provable randomness of any kind.
    
16. Depending on the severity of the offence, I may take disciplinary action including warning, force-replacement, or modkill.
    
17. Have fun!

Deadlines

1. Day phases will last 10 days.
   
2. Night phases will last 48 hours.
   
3. if for any reason the deadline is extended this will be announced in thread.
   
4. Players will be prodded after 48 hours of inactivity during the day. If players are on V/LA, their prod timer runs at half speed. Prod timers run at half speed during weekends.
   
5. If a player, after prodded, doesn’t post for 24 hours, or receives 3 prods over the course of the game, they will be replaced. If a player posts while I am searching for a replacement, they will be allowed to continue in the game.
   
6. Posts that do not contain game content (“prodges”) will not count for purposes of prod timers.
   
7. Prod-dodging twice will count the same as one prod. Prod-dodging the third time will incur a force-replacement. Be active!

Spoiler: Sample Vanilla Townie Role PM

Vanilla Townie

Welcome to

GAMENAME!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

, and aligned with the

Town

. You may post in the thread and vote as you see fit.

Abilities

:
~ None!

Attributes

:
~ None!

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is here.

Please confirm by responding with your role and alignment.

[schadd_]

all good!