Noraa's Mini Normal review, January 2021

[implosion]

/in to mod a mini normal designed by gypyx(with me peering over the shoulder and being like can we do a mafia vig?)
(u can't. that's not normal )

My setup currently looks like this:
Town Ninja Doctor
Town Odd-night Combined Role Watcher Gunsmith
Town JOAT (Watcher, Jailkeeper, Follower, Neighborizer)
Town Novice 3-shot Vigilante
Town Ascetic
VT*5

Mafia Informed Tracker 1-shot Activated Bulletproof (there is a ninja doctor)
Mafia Multitasking Disloyal Alien
Mafia backup doctor backup role watcher

I was wondering how many backup mods am I allowed to have? I would like to have ~2 (Hectic and Gypyx because he designed the setup)
If I could push that even more, that'd be cool too and I wouldn't be lonely in the mod pt :3

[implosion]

Primary: Isis
Secondary: northsidegal

[Isis]

Ohno

[Noraa]

hehe

[Isis]

I posted that before reading your setup, I'll look tonight. I just find nsg a funny review partner.

[Noraa]

Gypyx told me this conversation was gonna go down like this:

reviewers : so what's the setup

noraa : says setup

reviewers : wtf

noraa : gypyx designed it

reviewers : aaaah okay

[northsidegal]

hello noraa

you really probably only "need" one backup mod and if you want to add more people to your mod PT you can just do that without declaring them as anything

as for the setup review i'll take a comedic single step backwards and leave isis to it, although i really would ask as to the purpose of a lot of the roles is, and also just recommend in general to tune down the complexity

[Noraa]

Hi! I know nothing about setups so all questions and stuff can go to gypyx
My only request is that the Novice three shot vig is not ever taken out as that was my role in my first gypyx game and its a Vanilla noraa

[Noraa]

Vanilla Noraa

Welcome ! You are a

Vanilla Noraa

You may each night use your factional kill

Your goal is to kill 2 town PR's

[Gypyx]

uhhh yeah tbh things kinda went too far with complexity now that i look back at it

[Gypyx]

basically, the base idea was to mix these concepts

vig + gunsmith vs doc

and a town ninja role with action investigatives

[Isis]

So, the sequencing on me uncorking a wine bottle and visiting this thread for this evening is a bit off for me, trying to generate an estimate of townsided/scumsidedness on a paper setup is something that requires maximum faculties. Design considerations require slightly less so that's what I'm going to post about.

1. Neighborizer being part of a JOAT seems like a design fail here. It's pretty gamethrowy to use the neighborizer before N4 here, and a N4 neighborizer is extremely nothingy.
2. We should be able to accommodate a novice 3-shot vigilante if that's the sacred cow. There's not anything particularly wrong with a novice 3-shot vigilante. It's preferable that the final design includes a town power role that can cause a kill to fail, because that makes it more likely that the 3rd vigilante shot can remain positive utility, due to evens/odds logic.
3. I'm a ninja-abolitionist but that's not the mainstream view. I

suspect

that the way ninja is being utilized in this setup is not the way players who are pro-ninja think ninja is best incorporated into setups, but I feel less confident about that assessment due to trying to make it through my own belief that ninjas shouldn't really be in setups in general (which is not mainstream, and idiosyncracies from a reviewer shouldn't be pushed on designers in the review process. Reviews are about things more widely held to be cardinal sins.) I'd like to hear from nsg about it
Like to me, if I tried to shift my view a couple inches to where I thought ninjas were cool, as far as town-aligned ninjas go I think I'd want to see a Friendly Neighbor Ninja. On the other hand, a Doctor Ninja seems like reduced-scum-agency layered onto reduced-scum-agency in a way that makes me bewildered.

[Gypyx]

hmmmm yeah, we can take the neighb shot out

and not sure i get your opinion on the ninja doctor then lol

[Isis]

Using the tracker correctly and then watching kills fail anyway seems kind of frustrating.

Probably it's not something that's going to rise to the level where I insist on removing it.

[Isis]

Removing the ninja is a way to reduce overall setup complexity, though, and msg is correct that the setup complexity here is too high.

[Gypyx]

hmmm okay, so i need to rethink stuff kinda

[Isis]

If I had to call this setup scumsided or townsided I'd take townsided. Which makes revising a bit awkward because the scumteam is where a lot of the complexity should be removed.

[Noraa]

*noms on sammich*
I'd be down with gating those town prs even more :3
just can't change the novice 3 shot is all.

[Isis]

Generally I'm supposed to give you a revision I would pass, it's just tricky when I'm looking at something like this.

Role watcher seems pretty lost in the setup and it feels hard to predict how much extra setup insight and investigation it might add. That seems like something that could go. And that would help by killing the backup too.

[Isis]

Gating PRs doesn't reduce setup complexity for the most part.

[Gypyx]

Town Doctor
Town Night 2,3 Jailkeeper
Town Complex Gunsmith
Town Novice 3-shot Vigilante
VT*6

Mafia Backup Doctor
Mafia Checker
Mafia Goon

soo... yeah, complexity goes way down with this i hope, far from final but it's mostly used as a strating point

[Isis]

That's much more appealing.
Investigatives that can only guilty one of three scum usually get frowned upon. Backup is a modifier so the mafia doctor is immune to the gunsmith whether the town doctor has perished or not.

[Gypyx]

oh thought it didn't work that way

same for enabler i guess?

[Isis]

If the complex was dropped I'm no longer sure what I would have against passing it. Unless I'm underrating some of the town power roles it would just be fine.

Pedit: yeah, enabler doesn't let you toggle the gunsmith vs. doctor interaction either. It sucks a bit for what you wanted to do.

[Gypyx]

i mean, it seemed cool but alright

worried that with the complex dropped, setup might become too guessable

and a change would be needed from checker