Sirius9121's Large Normal Review, February 2021

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Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Godfather
Mafia 1-shot Role Cop

2-shot Cop
Odd-night Jailkeeper
Night 1 Neighbourizer (A)
Neighbour B
2-shot Seer
Mason A
Mason A
Neighbour B 2-shot Simple Doc
VT
VT
VT

Neighbour B Werewolf
Werewolf Role Cop
Werewolf 1-shot Ninja

[implosion]

Primary: Ircher
Secondary: mastina

[Sirius9121]

ego

[Sirius9121]

i said ego

[mastina]

Well for a start: Godfathers aren't Normal.
(I'll have to double-check if faction-specific investigatives in multiball are or not, I don't remember there since it's been a long time since I've reviewed a multiball game.)

(I will say that setup-wise, in terms of balance, it's not that far off the mark, it's just not Normal right now.)

Will it be public that the game's multiball?

[Sirius9121]

probably


also why are godfathers not normal xD

[Ircher]

Godfathers aren't normal because people stopped expecting them in games. Part of normality is dealing with player expectations.

[Ircher]

Also, I see you have both a cop and a seer. In normal games, they are one and the same, and you should probably stick to one of the two names. They both get results in the form "Town/Not Town".

Is there a reason there is an A in parenthesis beside the neighborizer?

We can evaluate balance once the normality issues are fixed.

[Sirius9121]

Also, I see you have both a cop and a seer. In normal games, they are one and the same, and you should probably stick to one of the two names. They both get results in the form "Town/Not Town".

Is there a reason there is an A in parenthesis beside the neighborizer?

We can evaluate balance once the normality issues are fixed.

Cop -> Mafia/Not Mafia
Seer -> Werewolf/Not Werewolf?
If not allowed, change two roles into 1x 2-shot Cop + 1x 1-shot Gunsmith

Also, Godfather -> 2-shot Roleblocker?

[Ircher]

Can you post the entire changed setup for easy reference? (Faction specific investigatives are not considered normal.)

[Sirius9121]

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia 1-shot Neighbourizer (D)
Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

Neighbour B Werewolf
Werewolf Role Cop
Werewolf 1-shot Ninja

2-shot Cop
Odd-night Jailkeeper
Night 1 Neighbourizer (C)
Neighbour B
2-shot Seer
Mason A
Mason A
Neighbour B 2-shot Simple Doc
VT
VT
VT

[Sirius9121]

changed a bit

2-shot RB not good as already exist RB in setup
letters in parenthesizes mean the same thread

[Ircher]

(Faction specific investigatives are not considered normal.)

This still applies.

Also, just to clarify, are you shooting for 33-33-33 balance here or 50-25-25 balance?

[Sirius9121]

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia 1-shot Neighbourizer (D)
Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

Neighbour B Werewolf
Werewolf Role Cop
Werewolf 1-shot Ninja

2-shot Alignment Cop
Odd-night Jailkeeper
Night 1 Neighbourizer (C)
Neighbour B
1-shot Gunsmith
Mason A
Mason A
Neighbour B 2-shot Simple Doc
VT
VT
VT

[Sirius9121]

as for the balance, which is more commonly seen in multiball / is more fun?

[Ircher]

I'm not too sure about that myself; it's been a long while since I've seen multiball. Maybe mastina is more informed about that. I will give my assessment on balance tomorrow, but I think I agree with mastina's initial assessment that this is pretty close.

[mastina]

When it comes to multiball balance, there's two metrics to use: 50-25-25 town-scumA-scumB, and 33-33-33 town-scumA-scumB.

Both scum factions should have an equal chance of winning to each other, but there is no universal consensus on whether it is better to have all factions equal chance or town 50% of the time. Neither is inherently correct or inherently wrong.

I recommend that the setup be advertised as multiball, and maybe even the balance-metric, too. (If 50-25-25, specified as such; if 33-33-33, specified as such.)

In this setup, per 13, I'd say the scum are loosely fairly close tho the ninja with no action-investigations is a bit unfair for the werewolves, but having a full rolecop compared to the mafia's 2x rolecop gives them a small edge, but the mafia have a roleblocker. (Mafia might have the edge overall; if you want to make the teams even, I'd probably either gate the mafia roleblocker or give the ninja a purpose or change the ninja; any of those 3 changes would bring the two teams to balanced with each other.)

If the mafia/werewolf teams are loosely equal, I'd rate the setup as more 33-33-33 than 50-25-25, mostly due to the town having only one elimination method and facing two nightkills every night and having poor kill-denial (the jk is good, but is odd-night only; the doc is limited to VTs and 2x), and also having so many high-priority nightkills:
With the masons, doctor, jailkeeper, cop/gunsmith clears, and cop/gunsmiths themselves, the scum have far more incentive to shoot town than they do to cross-shoot, and the town can't do much to stop that.

In other words, setup-wise, cross-kills past N1 (and maybe not even then) are unlikely and successful killstops are unlikely meaning it's probably 2 kills every night on town.

Of course, inherent to multiball games is a heavy, heavy level of swing. Multiball is innately, inherently, the most swinginess-heavy gametype in the game. It's impossible to control the swing because there's too many variables--scum cross-killing, scum killing the same target (which in this case bypasses the doctor, too), scum killing two different town, etc. That's a lot of variables involved, so it's difficult to lock down; players viewing the setup may disagree with my assessment and think it's 50-25-25 due to the high amount of conftown players with protectives that can keep them alive for longer than they otherwise would.

[Sirius9121]

would prefer 33-33-33

[Sirius9121]

toying with 1-shot Ninja -> 1-shot Traffic Analysist

[Sirius9121]

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Night 2,3 Traffic Analysist
Mafia 2-shot Role Cop

Neighbour B Werewolf
Werewolf Role Cop
Werewolf 1-shot Neighbourizer (D)

2-shot Alignment Cop
Odd-night Jailkeeper
Night 1 Neighbourizer (C)
Neighbour B
1-shot Gunsmith
Mason A
Mason A
Neighbour B 2-shot Simple Doc
VT
VT
VT

[Ircher]

I'm willing to pass this if you adjust the balance of power between mafia and werewolves; mafia have a bit too much. They seem quite a bit stronger than the werewolves. Roleblocker is a notoriously strong role in mafia hands, and the mafia also has strong investigative power in the form of the role cop and traffic analyst. The traffic analyst in particular can help the mafia identify the other scum pretty well. The werewolves have a stronger role cop and a neighborizer, which can be strong in scum hands, but they also have no kill stopping power. Town seems fine; they have a ton of confirmable/clear generating roles and some kill stopping power. It's enough for them to have around a 30-40% chance of winning.

So some alternatives to consider; any one of these proposals would be acceptable (town stays the same):

Mafia Odd Night Roleblocker
Mafia Night 2,3 Traffic Analyst
Mafia 2-shot Role Cop
Neighbour B Werewolf
Werewolf Role Cop
Werewolf 2-shot Neighbourizer (D)

or

Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Night 3 Traffic Analyst
Mafia 2-shot Role Cop
Neighbour B 1-Shot Bulletproof Werewolf
Werewolf Role Cop
Werewolf 1-shot Neighbourizer (D)

You can of course suggest your own alternatives as well.

[Sirius9121]

Mafia Odd Night Roleblocker
Mafia Night 2,3 Traffic Analyst
Mafia 2-shot Role Cop
Werewolf Night 2 Roleblocker Neighbour (B)
Werewolf Role Cop
Werewolf 1-shot Neighbourizer (D)

[Ircher]

Okay that's fine.

We need to see role pms and rules.
How are you handling mutual roleblocks and roleblocker vs. jailkeeper precedence?

[Sirius9121]

Rules -> See Mini Normal 2191. Day -> 8 days.

Jailkeeper strictly first to roleblocker.

Mutual roleblock = Both roleblocked for other actions.

All scum are default multitasking?

[Ircher]

I think normal guidelines require them to have the multitasking modifier to be multitasking. I will pass the setup either way still.

Sp that just leaves role pms.