Cook's Mini Normal Review, March 2021

[implosion]

Rolelist

12 Players.

5

Vanilla Townies

2

Town Masons

1

Town Friendly Neighbor

1

Town Doctor

1

Mafia Traitor Roleblocker

1

Mafia Fruit Vendor

1

Mafia 2-Shot Vanilla Cop

As per Normal guidelines, the Traitor is informed of the Mafia team, and the Mafia team is informed of the presence of a Traitor.

For Reviewers

Going in to balancing this setup, I wanted to make a 2maf1traitor vs 9 town setup work without creating a breaking strategy.

Town's main power is confirmability of its own ranks as opposed to confirming scum. 2 Masons can vouch for each other, especially in later-game phases, and Friendly Neighbor being the "investigative" means it's pointless to follow an investigation role, since FN outing defeats its own purpose.

Doctor, too, isn't capable of acting as a Cop, either, since Traitor being targeted by Mafia could result in a Doctor save that appears to "confirm" that player as not Mafia.

To counter this, scum is capable of also confirming itself, with a Fruit Vendor to create a potential false confirm.

Vanilla Cop was also thrown in to allow Mafia to better read the room and find any protectives who might not be claiming.

Already, two scum PRs in a 3:9 setup was a problem, hence my decision to make the customary Roleblocker a Traitor to weaken scum's capability to coordinate a Doc play.

Overall, I expect this setup to initially be townsided but I'm hoping we can make it work.

[implosion]

Primary: Isis
Secondary: implosion

[Isis]

I think this is a little townsided. I need to go to sleep too soon to counteroffer a setup.
One thing I'm looking at here is the that the outcomes where a mason or friendly neighbor is forced to claim day 1 look kind of crappy. Neither role will get eliminated D1, and then N1 it will be really appealing to try to kill the claimed player because that doesn't risk killing the traitor. But the doc protect on the power role is brutal. It's pretty punishing for good scum dayplay and seemingly defensible night play.

[implosion]

I was gonna say something similar, I think you're right that the initial draft is a bit townsided. Doctor + confirmable roles is always risky because even though it's not a breaking strategy in the sense that the town can follow the cop, it still leaves a lot of potential frustration for scum that the situation Isis described can happen; this is compounded by the fact that the setup starts in evens so the first doc save earns an extra miselim.

Some possible solutions or partial solutions could be:

-Liberal application of the macho or ascetic modifiers (possibly in conjunction with some informed scum role that gives them info about that so that they know they don't have to waffle around whether or not to target a claimed mason or FN)
-Weakening or changing the role of the doctor, e.g. giving it a modifier like odd or even night, changing it to a bodyguard, etc
-Improving or changing the scum's 2-shot vanilla cop to something more specific, like ungating it, changing it to a rolecop, changing it to a doctor-finder (which would also effectively inform scum that there's a town doctor), etc.
-Upgrading the traitor if we still think it's too townsided. My personal philosophy of scum power roles is that they're basically an alternative way to gate town power roles (though this isn't true of the fruit vendor); if the town power roles are strong on their own or the scum power roles aren't especially effective against them in the first place then you don't necessarily need a traitor. That said I think it probably will still make sense in this setup.

Also since it is quite likely to matter here: are scum intended to be multitasking by default?

[Cook]

Response To Isis

• Macho'ing the FN would work, I think.

Response To Implosion

• Informed was a concept I was thinking about for the Mafia in lieu of a rolecop. I switched RC to VC when submitting.
• Maybe give Traitor some sort of combined ability?

Looking this over, I think it's an either or for FN and Mason.

[Cook]

That being said, only two Masons dramatically decreases their power since the scum-team could also claim Masons, with the right information.

[Isis]

Masons virtually always function similarly to Activated Innocent Children on MS.net. Site meta is to massclaim in eLo-1, so claiming masons as scum doesn't work, the town eliminates one of the four players that claimed to be a mason pair, and if they guessed wrong they eliminate the mafia "mason pair" in eLo.
If you macho'd the entire mason pair, that'd probably be enough coverage to where I'd be happy to just hope the friendly neighbor doesn't get run up and hope there's not bad beats. The way Ascetic interacts with the Fruit Vendor rather than Macho is appealing.

In the alternative, making the mafia traitor a rolestopper informed that there's a doctor would be cute.

[Cook]

So Ascetic FN, 2 Macho Masons, Mafia Fruit Vendor Informed ("There are two Masons, and your Traitor is an Asceticizer"), Mafia Role Cop, Mafia Traitor Asceticizer Infomed ("There is a Doctor, and your scumteam is Fruit Vendor Informed, and Role Cop."), and 5 VT.

Asceticizer would still allow Mafia to factional kill a Traitor's target. I'm hesitant to allow it to block kills, as that seems a bit negative utility. Maybe Combined Asceticizer Roleblocker?

[Isis]

Asceticizer isn't a normal role. Personal Rolestopper is very similar and should work. But you don't need to to put passive on all the clearable roles and also provide a personal rolestopper. Those were either/or

[Isis]

Yeah I should not have said rolestopper without a modifier in the first place, oof

[Cook]

1

Mafia Informed Traitor Personal Rolestopper

("There is a Doctor and your scumteam is a Fruit Vendor Informed and Role Cop.")

1

Mafia Informed Fruit Vendor

("There are two Masons and your Traitor is a Personal Rolestopper")

1

Mafia Role Cop

2

Town Masons

1

Town Doctor

1

Town Friendly Neighbor

5

Vanilla Townies

As per Normal rules, the scumteam is informed of the presence of a Traitor but not their identity, and the Traitor is informed of the scumteam and identities. The Traitor is unable to be converted into a full Mafia member, and can be targeted by the nightkill.

[Isis]

I think this is runnable now. Its maybe more townsided than I would be pumped about approving but there's no more knobs I want to turn. The setup might autobalance itself if the fruit vendor true claims and it seems like town has too much power and that fakeclears.
This absolutely needs passive multitasking for the scumteam

Main knob left that could be turned is gating the friendly neighbor which is probably a worthwhile idea.

[Cook]

Friendly Neighbor is now Even-Night.

All scum have multitasking.

Do I mention scum have multitasking by default?

[Cook]

^ in main thread

[Isis]

Yeah that always gets mentioned in the main thread

[Cook]

Alright. I think Even-Night is a decent gate for FN as it will require the FN survives two days to confirm itself.

[Cook]

What else do I need? (first time getting a setup reviewed)

[implosion]

Role PMs are generally good to see so we can look over them and make sure they look right.

[Isis]

Also we usually get previews of results PMs, which in this setup relates to fruit vendor, friendly neighbor, and vanilla cop

[Cook]

Alright. I'll write those up.

I've also got some thinking to do of flavor. Considering flavoring the game around a meatspace game, where everyone's either gathering over Scumm (zoom knockoff), or they're at a physical table like pre-pandemic times, having fun. Flip flavor is as such too.

The table decides to eliminate

Cook.

He flips his card...

Cook was a

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

(role pm, with all of the sensitive bits censored)

[Cook]

Welcome! You are a

Vanilla Townie.

• Use your voice and your vote to help eliminate the scum.

You win upon all threats to the Town being eliminated.
The game thread is

here.

Welcome! You are a

Town Mason.

• Use your voice and your vote to help eliminate the scum.
• You are a Mason, and, as a result, know that XXXX is also a Mason, and they also know you are a Mason.
• You in addition have access to a Private Topic in which you may converse with other Masons at all times.

You win upon all threats to the Town being eliminated.
The game thread is

here.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment. You may also post in your PT pre-game and I will count that as a confirmation.

Welcome! You are a

Town Doctor.

• Use your voice and your vote to help eliminate the scum.
• At night you may send me the name of a player you wish to protect.
• Your chosen target will be protected from one kill.

You win upon all threats to the Town being eliminated.
The game thread is

here.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment.

Welcome! You are a

Town Even-Night Friendly Neighbor.

• Use your voice and your vote to help eliminate the scum.
• On even nights (Night 2, Night 4, Night 6, Night 8, etc.) you may send me the name of a player.
• Your chosen target will be notified you are aligned with the Town.

You win upon all threats to the Town being eliminated.
The game thread is

here.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment.

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Informed Fruit Vendor.

• Use your social deception skills and your vote to further the Mafia's goals.
• Your Mafia partner is XXXX.
• At night you may send me the name of another player.
• Your chosen target will be notified they received a piece of fruit.
• You may, in addition to your other abilities, perform the Mafia's kill in conjunction with your other abilities.
• You in addition carry the burden of the following knowledge:

There are two Masons in this game. Your traitor is an Informed Personal Rolestopper.

You win once the Mafia reach an unopposable voting majority.
The game thread is

here.

The Mafia Private Topic is

here.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment. You may also post in your PT pre-game and I will count that as a confirmation.

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Role Cop.

• Use your social deception skills and your vote to further the Mafia's goals.
• Your Mafia partner is XXXX.
• At night you may send me the name of another player.
• You will learn the role, but not the alignment, of your chosen target.
• You may, in addition to your other abilities, perform the Mafia's kill in conjunction with your other abilities.

You win once the Mafia reach an unopposable voting majority.
The game thread is

here.

The Mafia Private Topic is

here.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment. You may also post in your PT pre-game and I will count that as a confirmation.

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Informed Traitor Rolestopper.

• Use your social deception skills and your vote to further the Mafia's goals.

As a Traitor, you will not be granted access to the Mafia Private Topic. The Mafia do not know who you are, but are aware you exist.

• Your Mafia partners are XXXX and XXXX.
• At night you may send me the name of another player.
• Any actions taken against your chosen target that are

not

factional will fail.

You win once the Mafia reach an unopposable voting majority.
If you are the last remaining Mafia member, you will surrender and the Mafia will lose.
The game thread is

here.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment. You may also post in your PT pre-game and I will count that as a confirmation.

Feedback Messages

XXXX has revealed to you they are a member of the Town!

You have been given a piece of fruit.

Your target's role is Vanilla.

Your target's role is Mason.

Your target's role is Friendly Neighbor.

Your target's role is Fruit Vendor.

Your target's role is Role Cop.

Your target's role is Traitor Rolestopper.

Your action failed, you did not receive a result.

Information Dumped Into The Scum PT

XXXX - Mafia Rolecop
XXXX - Mafia Informed Fruit Vendor

There is a Traitor in this game.

As a reminder of Traitor mechanics, while you are uninformed of who the Traitor is, the Traitor is informed of who you are and is working towards your win condition. If you target the Traitor with your kill,

they will die.

There is no way to recruit the Traitor into your team.

If the Traitor is the last Mafia member standing, they will surrender and the game will end in a Town win.

As a member of your faction is Informed, would you like me to post their information into this thread?

While technically Fruit Vendor and Role Cop results are Dept. of Redundancy Dept., I'll leave the option open. Who knows what shenanigans may be gotten up to?

[implosion]

As a minor thing, there are a couple of sort of "flavorful" things in these role PMs that are fine, but I'd slightly advise against - e.g. the phrase "You in addition carry the burden of the following knowledge:". In a normal game I'd typically expect to see "You are informed of the following:" or the like. I only mention this because it's conceivable that some players might in some way reference unconventional phrasing which is something you'd want to avoid if you can.

This line should be removed from the traitor PM: "You may also post in your PT pre-game and I will count that as a confirmation"

This line: "If you target the Traitor with your kill, they will die." is something that you normally wouldn't be able to say at all, because mafia wouldn't know if the traitor is bulletproof. In this case I'd still get rid of it just because mafia might read into it that there's no protective role or something like that; players should generally know how traitor mechanics work, and if they're not sure they can ask. The reminder of traitor mechanics is fine (good, in fact), I'd just I guess rephrase it into something like "your factional kill works normally against the traitor - they cannot be recruited."

Mason PM should specifically mention that the other person is town, not just that they're a mason, since there's still a bit of a holdover from long ago when there was ambiguity between the terms "mason" and "neighbor".

[Cook]

As a minor thing, there are a couple of sort of "flavorful" things in these role PMs that are fine, but I'd slightly advise against - e.g. the phrase "You in addition carry the burden of the following knowledge:". In a normal game I'd typically expect to see "You are informed of the following:" or the like. I only mention this because it's conceivable that some players might in some way reference unconventional phrasing which is something you'd want to avoid if you can.

This line should be removed from the traitor PM: "You may also post in your PT pre-game and I will count that as a confirmation"

This line: "If you target the Traitor with your kill, they will die." is something that you normally wouldn't be able to say at all, because mafia wouldn't know if the traitor is bulletproof. In this case I'd still get rid of it just because mafia might read into it that there's no protective role or something like that; players should generally know how traitor mechanics work, and if they're not sure they can ask. The reminder of traitor mechanics is fine (good, in fact), I'd just I guess rephrase it into something like "your factional kill works normally against the traitor - they cannot be recruited."

Mason PM should specifically mention that the other person is town, not just that they're a mason, since there's still a bit of a holdover from long ago when there was ambiguity between the terms "mason" and "neighbor".

Alright. I'll simplify the Informed message to "You are informed of the following:"

That was an accidental holdover in the Traitor PM.

Changing phrasing to

There is a Traitor in this game.

As a reminder of Traitor mechanics, while you are uninformed of who the Traitor is, the Traitor is informed of who you are and is working towards your win condition. Targeting the Traitor with a factional kill will work normally — there is no way to recruit the Traitor.

If the Traitor is the last Mafia member standing, they will surrender and the game will end in a Town win.

Rephrasing Mason PM to

Welcome! You are a

Town Mason.

• Use your voice and your vote to help eliminate the scum.
• You are a Mason along with XXXX. You both know you are members of the Town.
• You in addition have access to a Private Topic in which you may converse with other Masons at all times.

You win upon all threats to the Town being eliminated.
The game thread is

here

.

[Cook]

The Traitor PM is also lacking its Informed section.

Welcome! You are a

Mafia Informed Traitor Rolestopper.

• Use your social deception skills and your vote to further the Mafia's goals.
• Your Mafia partners are XXXX and XXXX.

As you are a Traitor, your partners know you exist, but not who you are. You will not be granted access to the Mafia Private Topic. The Mafia's kill will work on you normally — you cannot be recruited.

• At night you may send me the name of a player.
• Any actions taken against your chosen target that are

not

factional will fail.
• You are in addition informed of the following:

Your partners have the roles Role Cop and Informed Fruit Vendor. There is one Doctor in the game.

You win once the Mafia reach an unopposable voting majority.
If you are the last remaining Mafia member, you will surrender and the Mafia will lose.
The game thread is

here

.

Confirm by replying with your role and alignment.

[Isis]

XXXX has revealed to you they are a member of the Town!

When you actually run the game, changing the pronoun to be specific is a nice touch if you can manage it. MS games get a little more character than botbased games on other sites due to things like that.

The Personal modifier isn't in the Traitor's role PM. It should be in the mafia's role PM and the Traitor's role PM (omitting a modifier isn't a moderator lie for the mafia to learn, but we want to maximize scum power here).

I can't remember whether rolecops see modifiers or not. I think they don't? So that part wouldn't change.