Hydra Discussion Thread

[Malkon05]

I think two things:

1. Leave it as host choice on whether or not they are allowed.
2. If you are going to have them, make it known it’s an option so people know whether it’ll be their cup of tea or not. Also make it very clear how the hydra will operate in that game to balance things out.

Is there really any further discussion needed on the subject?

[xRECKONERx]

Did you just say twists equally affect all players

Agnostically, yes, all player slots can be equally impacted by twists

[D3f3nd3r]

I think two things:

1. Leave it as host choice on whether or not they are allowed.
2. If you are going to have them, make it known it’s an option so people know whether it’ll be their cup of tea or not. Also make it very clear how the hydra will operate in that game to balance things out.

Is there really any further discussion needed on the subject?

And then when every mod likes hydras and I refuse to play any game because of this, that's problem solved, right?

Sorry, not a great day, but this comment feels very dismissive.

[D3f3nd3r]

Like it *seems* that categorically there are players that would refuse to play games with hydras based on both this thread and some stuff in confessionals early into this past game, and I don't want them to have to funnel into the one game a year that one of us decides to mod.

[xRECKONERx]

Like it *seems* that categorically there are players that would refuse to play games with hydras based on both this thread and some stuff in confessionals early into this past game, and I don't want them to have to funnel into the one game a year that one of us decides to mod.

bingo

I actually pinged some players who have floated away from the LSG community to ask their thoughts ab this and they said the fact MS was doing hydras in LSGs solidified the fact they'd never come back and play here again so like, I dunno. I'm not sure it's as easy as "just ignore it if you don't like it".

[Malkon05]

I think two things:

1. Leave it as host choice on whether or not they are allowed.
2. If you are going to have them, make it known it’s an option so people know whether it’ll be their cup of tea or not. Also make it very clear how the hydra will operate in that game to balance things out.

Is there really any further discussion needed on the subject?

And then when every mod likes hydras and I refuse to play any game because of this, that's problem solved, right?

Sorry, not a great day, but this comment feels very dismissive.

Not the intent. More just trying to see if I could find a compromise and be inclusive to both sides of the fence.

Clearly it was taken not as that.

Carry on.

[VashtaNeurotic]

Even in that case, I'm still fine with it.

That's buck wild to me that you can openly say "It is inherently unfair and advantages one slot over another but I don't care".

I dunno why striving for equality across slots isn't high on the priority list.

lol~ a first timer has very low chances of winning. Pairing them up with someone as opposed to having them play alone increases equality across player slots.

Yes, a first-timer has a low chance of winning. That's because learning how to play these types of games takes time and experience to learn, so when you do get better and play well and get far. A first-timer should almost always lose to experienced players in every game that isn't Mario Party. LSGs aren't Mario Party.

I assume this is meant to say "so when you do get better and play well and get far it will be more rewarding" and will respond assuming as such.

First, big oof to the worst or really anyone who does well in their first game. Second, Reck you realize how long games are, and how few there are in year, right? And how hard it can be for someone to improve in a community foreign to them that they aren't already excelling at? Like sure you can be like "it'll be more rewarding when you get better, just wait another 3 months to hopefully not go out early" and leave people to their own devices, OR you can, actually give people a connection to the community and meaningful feedback in one of their first games while also not having a bunch of autoboots at the start of games.

[D3f3nd3r]

I think two things:

1. Leave it as host choice on whether or not they are allowed.
2. If you are going to have them, make it known it’s an option so people know whether it’ll be their cup of tea or not. Also make it very clear how the hydra will operate in that game to balance things out.

Is there really any further discussion needed on the subject?

And then when every mod likes hydras and I refuse to play any game because of this, that's problem solved, right?

Sorry, not a great day, but this comment feels very dismissive.

Not the intent. More just trying to see if I could find a compromise and be inclusive to both sides of the fence.

Clearly it was taken not as that.

Carry on.

I mean, realistically what you suggested is a valid answer. The best I think I could reasonably hope for given the majority response is that with the added parameter of "hydras will not be allowed in consecutive games" or something similar. I was mostly reacting to the last sentence of what you wrote.

[xRECKONERx]

@Vash Yeah it's supposed to be that it's more rewarding.

And... yes, we run a few games a year. That's kind of the nature of the game? We've maintained a steady growth of newbies in the community over the decade or so that LSGs have been running, I don't entirely understand why this is an issue. If you don't like that type of game that requires learning the ropes and getting used to it then like maybe LSGs aren't for you? Maybe spectate one first to see how it's played?

I'll also point out this is being brought up as "well hydras are for newbies" yet a hydra won the last game consisting of two non-newbies so idk why we're arguing in bad faith here

[xofelf]

I do appreciate people bringing up whether hydras existing or not would affect whether they would play games, that is a very important part of the discussion to have. And I do thank Silver for starting this discussion and getting a lot of people's views on it. It helps whether or not we want to allow them to be more normal or not, so thank you kindly for all of your thoughts and words here everybody.

[Silverclaw]

Small correction to that. The veteran hydra came first, but the hydra that was two new players made it into the merge without issue and could have made it a decent distance in if they didn't both spontaneously agree to make a weird move during the ranger vote, and the hydra that was a new player and a veteran was quite well-liked but was just slow in acquiring allies. All three hydras did totally fine, and the mixed hydra doing the worst was an oddity because it was pablito and a real-life friend of his.

I'd be totally fine to add an inclination that veterans cannot hydra with other veterans because I think that's the real problem clause here that may be problematic [in addition to the burnout thing, which I do think should be addressed above and beyond everything else]. I don't think a veteran/newbie or double newbie hydra could cause nearly as many issues.

[VashtaNeurotic]

I mean...your point there was about first timers, so I responded about first timers. I'm equally fine arguing that I like to see Radja be able to play games when he's busy and not telling him he just shouldn't apply, but I get that not everyone will agree with that.

I'm also fine if the conclusion is that Flim-Flam can't happen again (barring a game designed to only be hydras), which I think is regrettable, but understandable.

Also, like, spectating a game might give you a sense of how the game works, but frankly it's not going to make up for lack of experience in a meaningful way, the only real way to get better at survivor is to actually play survivor. Also, yes there have been additions to the community, that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for more or ease the process of joining the community? I think this is good for that.

Also, like, you do have to consent into being a hydra, so if someone thinks they're fine on their own and they would be robbed of the grind, they can just...not, or choose to spectate.

[D3f3nd3r]

Small correction to that. The veteran hydra came first, but the hydra that was two new players made it into the merge without issue and could have made it a decent distance in if they didn't both spontaneously agree to make a weird move during the ranger vote, and the hydra that was a new player and a veteran was quite well-liked but was just slow in acquiring allies. All three hydras did totally fine, and the mixed hydra doing the worst was an oddity because it was pablito and a real-life friend of his.

I'd be totally fine to add an inclination that veterans cannot hydra with other veterans because I think that's the real problem clause here that may be problematic [in addition to the burnout thing, which I do think should be addressed above and beyond everything else]. I don't think a veteran/newbie or double newbie hydra could cause nearly as many issues.

I do also want to see what happens to the newbie heads of those two hydras next time (if) they play! And I'm curious how they'd have done alone in a game. Hard to really analyze without the comparison, considering we get a very wild range of newbies from me not PMing anybody my first game to people like Maclow/Snakes going and winning their first time out.

[Silverclaw]

Small correction to that. The veteran hydra came first, but the hydra that was two new players made it into the merge without issue and could have made it a decent distance in if they didn't both spontaneously agree to make a weird move during the ranger vote, and the hydra that was a new player and a veteran was quite well-liked but was just slow in acquiring allies. All three hydras did totally fine, and the mixed hydra doing the worst was an oddity because it was pablito and a real-life friend of his.

I'd be totally fine to add an inclination that veterans cannot hydra with other veterans because I think that's the real problem clause here that may be problematic [in addition to the burnout thing, which I do think should be addressed above and beyond everything else]. I don't think a veteran/newbie or double newbie hydra could cause nearly as many issues.

I do also want to see what happens to the newbie heads of those two hydras next time (if) they play! And I'm curious how they'd have done alone in a game. Hard to really analyze without the comparison, considering we get a very wild range of newbies from me not PMing anybody my first game to people like Maclow/Snakes going and winning their first time out.

I got to play with June during the marathon survivor if it helps, and she's actually really good on her own too. This was a situation where literally no one in the game but me would have possibly known who she was, and June was a total standout player. I'm confident in her ability.

I can't speak for MURDERCAT as a solo player, but I get the feeling he'd do totally fine on his own because neither head was really dragging the other down. They played off their strengths and weaknesses really well.

[Cheery Dog]

I'm going to continue to attempt to believe that everyone is a single player.

At least I think that's what I attempted to force myself to believe in KSS.

Although I also didn't in Equestria.

So I have no idea what my input to this game is, but I know I my own chances of winning the game aren't going to change whether there is a hydra present in the game or not.
Possibly if I was in the hydra, and you average out normal win chance between me and the other player, and even then I don't think it would feel like a true win.

I'm in favour of people playing games how they want to play, but and the mod ends up deciding. If the game theme can thematically house hydrae, then it can have them I guess, even if I didn't expect them in any of the games I'd played.

[Aronis]

Hydrae are inherently unbalanced.

First, hydrae are going to have more time to spend playing the game. This gives them an advantage in the sense that they can spend twice as much time hunting for idols. They also can message people more often, etc. Having more time and resources to devote to playing the game is an advantage.

Second, hydrae will have twice as many skills at their disposal. One of the challenges of survivor is that players have a variety of different skills and have to play to their strengths to do well. As somebody who plays more UTR, if I come into merge with an unusually high threat level I'm going to struggle to adjust and play correctly. With a hydrae I may have a partner very experienced with that circumstance that I can let take over and play for me. Hydrae create a more well rounded and balanced player. The idea that some people will struggle to work together, while holding limited merit, is flawed. I contend that most of the time they can collaborate effectively no matter what and the fact that in most instances you get to choose your partner means you can be expected to work particularly well together in almost all instances. furthermore, expecting hydrae to play particularly poorly is a terrible balance mechanism for multiple reasons.

Third, hydrae will be inherently harder for other players to read. One example of this, is survivor challenges often follow a similar veins and so I can anticipate if player X is likely to be good at a lot of challenges and take them out prior to a situation where they could go on a challenge run and guarantee themselves a spot at FTC. I'm going to have a significantly smaller sample size to evaluate when examining a hydra and an added level of randomness because I won't know who's doing what challenge. That makes playing much harder for a solo player.

I also think the idea that the solution to this advantage is that you should basically just policy vote out hydrae is a terrible one for a variety of reasons. I can elaborate if anyone cares.

The idea that hydrae are balanced in their current state against single players is false. I don't think that means they should necessarily never be used. I think it ultimately comes down to what game moderators decide and their decision should be rooted in a desire to design a game both they enjoy and also, importantly, one the community will as well. The community's willingness to play in said games serves as an important check against moderators as well. So in a situation where that inherent balance barrier was removed by everybody being in a hydrae or accepted in exchange for increased player enjoyment would be understandable. I also think the addition of game complexity ratings and moderator disclosures that MS has developed and encouraged over the years are very important and helpful.

[DeathNote]

Mostly EGO posting here and having read anything else yet really but...

I don't like the idea of Hydra's in a Survivor game.

The situations were I would be ok with it need multiple of the following:
* Advertised in advance
* Used to teach a newer player
* In a bastard game where I already know the rules don't count for much
* An all hydra game

Hydra's feel like a massive advantage to me and I get that it's cool to help people with messed up timezones and relieve a bit of the pressure of the game but there is incremental advantages that will further divide people's odds of doing well. This game is brutal and stressful and consuming.... having a hydra just relieves a burden everyone else can't get rid of.

But yeah... just my quick two cents. I'm also the guy who would rather only have 1 idol max in games.

[DeathNote]

^Sorry it's late and I'm tired. This should should say that "I haven't read anything else yet."

[xRECKONERx]

Also, like, you do have to consent into being a hydra, so if someone thinks they're fine on their own and they would be robbed of the grind, they can just...not, or choose to spectate.

Yes the issue isn't really whether people consenting to be in a hydra should be in a hydra. The issue is how the rest of the community feels about being forced to play w/ hydras

[VashtaNeurotic]

That was more me going off on a tangent in my head. Basically, you are saying new players in a hydra are being robbed of some reward by not getting better the old fashioned way (highly debatable imo). My response is more, shouldn't they get a choice? After all it's not like we'd be forcing any into a hydra.

[xRECKONERx]

That was more me going off on a tangent in my head. Basically, you are saying new players in a hydra are being robbed of some reward by not getting better the old fashioned way (highly debatable imo). My response is more, shouldn't they get a choice? After all it's not like we'd be forcing any into a hydra.

My response is more "the way the game is played is by learning and growing".

Like, apply this to any game or hobby? There are "trainers" or coaches for things, that's how you learn, and maybe that means we need a designated all-newbie or special "training game" each year that won't have an influx of veterans or something. But sacrificing the normally run games by making hydras standard is not the answer.

[VashtaNeurotic]

I mean, I don't think me or anyone is arguing that Hydras should be in standard games? I think it's more that they should be an allowable thing in Advanced/Complex games where there's already a lot of stuff going on?

Also, like, yes, the way the game is played is by learning and growing. Theoretically hydras should learn and grow more effectively and faster? Though I guess verifying that would be difficult.

[Skelda]

I'll tell you one thing, this thread is really making me never want to play as a hydra because I feel like even if you win as a hydra, people are gonna be like "oh no, you were a hydra, such a huuuuuuge advantage" and it's almost like your win doesn't fully count. That sounds pretty depressing to me.

[Skelda]

And also if a hydra makes FTC again, they will get negative questions about the advantages that came along with being a hydra. Bet.

[PrivateI]

I want to make clear upfront that I'm not making this post as a moderator, and this is exclusively my opinion, and doesn't reflect the view of the LSG mods as a whole.

With that said, I've played in hydras, and I think the biggest way to mitigate advantages of hydras is to 1. Explicitly not allow folks to partner up because they think they'd play well together--people who desire to hydra should go into a pool which mods can cast from if they choose, if this is going to be an ongoing mechanic (at least until we get an all-hydra game), and 2. As a function of that, the sole use of hydras (outside of games specifically made and targeted for other purposes) should be to partner experienced players with non experienced players.

I'll flesh those out later, but that's my thesis.