Challenge Discussion Thread

[Aronis]

I am interested in seeing what the community thinks about challenges. I've recently gotten more involved in hosting LSGs and ORGs and it's kind of led to me feeling like there's a little bit of a disconnect. As a host I always spend a significant portion, and sometimes a majority of my time designing challenges. Meanwhile as a player I don't really try in most challenges and even throw them sometimes-they're very much an afterthought until late in the game. So it's led to me wondering what my goal should be as a host when designing challenges.

So I created this thread for two purposes. First, to see what people believe makes a good challenge. I was interested both in terms of getting examples of great challenges from past LSGs and also more holistically a discussion on what values and standards one should strive to uphold when making challenges.

Second, I was curious if other people also thought challenges are largely unimportant most of the time or if I'm in the minority with that view. And then if they were unimportant, should that be changed and how.

I have more specific thoughts I might share later, but I was mainly just looking for feedback from all the amazing survivor players on this website.

[kdowns]

I miss flash games...

[MURDERCAT]

I like challenges. One thing that I liked from barely survivor was when there was a real competent of working together for team challenges. They were actually probably the most problematic challenges, but I thought the "attacking" challenges with the spam and puzzles worked really well for that, despite other issues.

[Awoo]

The best tribal challenges have the tribe working together. See: The first tribal challenge after each tribe swap on KYE.

As for individual immunity... well, I think by that point luck based challenges should be entirely phased out, since going out on a luck based challenge round just feels dumb.

I've never won individual immunity, so I don't care much for challenges overall.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Woo, more opportunities for me to wax on about design philosophy.

First of all, I like to follow a general rule when designing a game. One-third of the challenges in your game should be 100% brand-new. One-third should be old challenges but with some sort of twist or change. The remaining third can be classic challenges that are basically unchanged. The ratios don't have to be perfect but they should be your starting point. In addition, once you've modded games you may start to develop "signature challenges". It wouldn't be a CC game without a Jigsong; if I'm the mod in charge of design you will probably see Codenames or the Endurance Essay at some point; Broseidon has that ball-balancing thing he made in Unity four years ago. Those don't count towards the ratio; they are freebies.

There's another useful trio of categories when it comes to designing challenges for the pre-merge.
1) Tribe vs Tribe. In this type of challenge, the tribes will directly face off somehow. The actions one tribe takes will directly affect the actions taken by the other tribe. Examples: Building A Case from PD, Buckball Brawl from Equestria, the spam challenge from KSS/BS
2) Tribe vs Challenge: In this type of challenge, everybody on the tribe will work together in order to accomplish some sort of task. Examples: Fingerprints and Ransom Note from PD, Cooking With Link from PvCvW, Grand Galloping Gala from Equestria
3) Player vs Challenge: This is a glorified Individual Immunity challenge, except the scores are somehow collated and used to assign tribal immunity instead. Examples: Every challenge in Flash Mob, Sudoku Roulette in BS, Interpol Tax in PD

Again, numbers don't have to be perfect but you should strive for an equal amount of these categories pre-merge. In addition, I personally like to make the first challenge Tribe vs Challenge as a way to promote bonding.

The last thing to consider when designing challenges is looking to see what skill sets are being tested. Puzzles are great, but if EVERY challenge is a puzzle then things start to feel stagnant (looking at you, TRTWIUAA). You can double up sometimes, but if you do then try to have one challenge be pre-merge and the other be post-merge. For example, you should not have two memory challenges post-merge. It doesn't matter what they are trying to memorize in each one; they will still feel like the same challenge. Same applies to every skill set, be it trivia, endurance, hand-eye coordination, etc.

I have a lot more thoughts but these are the basics. Not every moderator is going to approach challenge design this way and that's fine. If it's your first (few) games, though, I highly recommend using these as a guide.

[xofelf]

This is a watch for now, but I do have some thoughts. When I have time, will share.

[Silverclaw]

Definitely an ego, although I have little to say for this.

[Klick]

I think challenges, especially early-game challenges, are much more engaging when the primary skill they test is teamwork.

As a player, the challenges I find myself enjoying the most are ones in which I get to connect with my tribe. Some of the most fun I've had in these games are when I've gotten to team up with people to create something, or solve something silly, or form a strategy for a challenge. I've heard similarly from others during games. Particularly in the first 2-3 rounds, challenges that require tribal teamwork have a decent chance of influencing the tribe's social dynamics, which is always interesting.

I think having cooperative challenges also makes for a game that feels... I guess the word would be *consistent*? 95% of what players actually do in LSGs is about social interaction and working together, and having that supplemented by some jigsaw or flash game half the time makes it feel like the challenges have nothing to do with the 'actual' game. I suspect this contributes a lot to why Jurors tend to completely ignore challenges at the end; they're basing their vote on how the game as a whole is played, and many challenges feel like they're separate from the real game. If challenges tested similar skills to the game at large, they might be taken more seriously.

[Aronis]

While I completely agree with including them in the early game, I've often thought cooperative or social challenges post merge are a bad idea. For me, I feel like challenges can and should be a way for somebody that's in a difficult position to get back into the game or buy themselves another round and so having a challenge like this which I've seen in games quite often is bad in my opinion. Because I think it heavily favors players with more information who are already doing well in the game and could hurt a player on the outs who will typically have less information, but desperately needs immunity. Which I imagine there's probably a way to make social challenges that avoid benefitting the already successful players in a good position, but I do think it can be tricky.

[Klick]

I'd also agree that adding challenges that advantage players that are already doing well in the game is a bad idea. It's a funny little line between 'test the same skills as the game itself' and 'give players on the top an advantage'.
I've always been a bit annoyed by the opposite as well though, where Final 3 members X and Y basically tie at Survivor and play a different game entirely as a tiebreaker. Maybe it's late-game challenges in general that annoy me

[VashtaNeurotic]

I'd also agree that adding challenges that advantage players that are already doing well in the game is a bad idea. It's a funny little line between 'test the same skills as the game itself' and 'give players on the top an advantage'.
I've always been a bit annoyed by the opposite as well though, where Final 3 members X and Y basically tie at Survivor and play a different game entirely as a tiebreaker. Maybe it's late-game challenges in general that annoy me

Curious, what is an example of a challenge that both tests the same skills as the game itself and isn't also a social challenge? Like it's easy to say post merge challenges should do this, but I'm having a difficult time imagining what these challenges would look like? Like the only one that comes to mind is the password round from PCW, but that was also very atypical in that 2 people won immunity, and the "game quiz" challenge. But obviously every challenge can't be the latter.

To be fair, I also don't see the problem with a jigsaw aside from the fact that jigsaws are a little basic as a challenge and should probably have another twist to be memorable. But like all the show's challenge at least have the time are just do this obstacle course and then do a puzzle, and I don't think the contestants spend a lot balancing balls on plates outside of that immunity comp. So I feel this might just be something that's hard to do. Also like, what's the MS equivalent of firemaking, a skill which everyone on the show should have if they've made it that close to the end.

[Snakes]

Can we get rid of the challenge where you have to pick numbers on a pyramid and every time someone always says they'll do 1 for every level?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Can we get rid of the challenge where you have to pick numbers on a pyramid and every time someone always says they'll do 1 for every level?

I don’t know about scrapping it entirely but it definitely needs a new twist. Hogwarts tried something where players could also booby-trap a space. That’s still a lot of RNG though.

[Skelda]

I'd also agree that adding challenges that advantage players that are already doing well in the game is a bad idea. It's a funny little line between 'test the same skills as the game itself' and 'give players on the top an advantage'.

I have had this perspective in the past, but I've kind of changed my mind on it a bit recently. Especially in the early merge, I think challenges which force players to "show their cards" so to speak can disrupt the power structure more than hoping the exact person who needs Immunity manages to win it. I mean if you desperately need Immunity at final 10, you have a 1/10 chance at getting it, in theory, and then a 1 in 9 chance the following round, etc. (though obviously things can change). But if there is a challenge which can force the majority to reveal where some lines are drawn, that could potentially do more good for the game long-term. It very much depends on how the challenge works though. I understand the instinct against challenges which allow a majority to work together to conspire, and maybe you would want to have more at stake than just Immunity or have players make decisions which can reveal where they stand in the game while not necessarily being able to work together to guarantee an outcome.

[Skelda]

(I'm thinking of something like the knockout-style Big Brother HoH, which while bad for the minority, has also given us a fair amount of drama and some shakeups. And if the minority is just good at the comp, they can still win it.)

[Skelda]

To be fair, I also don't see the problem with a jigsaw aside from the fact that jigsaws are a little basic as a challenge and should probably have another twist to be memorable. But like all the show's challenge at least have the time are just do this obstacle course and then do a puzzle, and I don't think the contestants spend a lot balancing balls on plates outside of that immunity comp. So I feel this might just be something that's hard to do.

Also like, what's the MS equivalent of firemaking, a skill which everyone on the show should have if they've made it that close to the end.

There should be a challenge about responding to as many wall PMs as you can as quickly as possible hahahahahahahaha

[Skelda]

Also I would love more cooperative challenges post-merge where multiple people win Immunity! That Defusing the Bomb challenge in PD was the most fun I've had in a challenge ever. And then that has the fun additional benefit of making players choose their own partners which can kind of show where they stand a little, like I just said earlier (like presumably you wouldn't want to partner with someone you plan to vote out and help them win, for example)

[Malkon05]

All challenges should be “Malkon wins”. Honestly.

[Iprobablysuck]

To be fair, I also don't see the problem with a jigsaw aside from the fact that jigsaws are a little basic as a challenge and should probably have another twist to be memorable. But like all the show's challenge at least have the time are just do this obstacle course and then do a puzzle, and I don't think the contestants spend a lot balancing balls on plates outside of that immunity comp. So I feel this might just be something that's hard to do.

Also like, what's the MS equivalent of firemaking, a skill which everyone on the show should have if they've made it that close to the end.

There should be a challenge about responding to as many wall PMs as you can as quickly as possible hahahahahahahaha

the challenge is just keeping up with makoto from killing school semester

[DeathNote]

The army fighting challenge from GoT was my favorite challenge of all time.

I also rarely win solo challenges unless they are random in some way. So personally while I hate random challenges, would be weird for me to say don't use them because then I won't win as often.

[Aronis]

Also I would love more cooperative challenges post-merge where multiple people win Immunity! That Defusing the Bomb challenge in PD was the most fun I've had in a challenge ever. And then that has the fun additional benefit of making players choose their own partners which can kind of show where they stand a little, like I just said earlier (like presumably you wouldn't want to partner with someone you plan to vote out and help them win, for example)

I think this is a good idea. It would increase collaboration and require some social skills. Perhaps my only worry would be that someone could partner with someone and then throw the challenge to ruin their chances, but I think it could also help the longshot odds of winning a challenge in the early merge. I've often wondered if increasing the amount of people who win immunity in the early merge rounds could be good and give those challenges more relevance than I think they have right now.

[CaptainMeme]

To be fair, I also don't see the problem with a jigsaw aside from the fact that jigsaws are a little basic as a challenge and should probably have another twist to be memorable. But like all the show's challenge at least have the time are just do this obstacle course and then do a puzzle, and I don't think the contestants spend a lot balancing balls on plates outside of that immunity comp. So I feel this might just be something that's hard to do.

Also like, what's the MS equivalent of firemaking, a skill which everyone on the show should have if they've made it that close to the end.

There should be a challenge about responding to as many wall PMs as you can as quickly as possible hahahahahahahaha

the challenge is just keeping up with makoto from killing school semester

Leon had to put up with it for so long that he quit

[D3f3nd3r]

To be fair, I also don't see the problem with a jigsaw aside from the fact that jigsaws are a little basic as a challenge and should probably have another twist to be memorable. But like all the show's challenge at least have the time are just do this obstacle course and then do a puzzle, and I don't think the contestants spend a lot balancing balls on plates outside of that immunity comp. So I feel this might just be something that's hard to do.

Also like, what's the MS equivalent of firemaking, a skill which everyone on the show should have if they've made it that close to the end.

There should be a challenge about responding to as many wall PMs as you can as quickly as possible hahahahahahahaha

Actual answer: It's the Babar sequence from RSX

[VashtaNeurotic]

Now seems like a good time to remind people that this form exists: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =338973972

And can be updated by anyone

[Skelda]

Also I would love more cooperative challenges post-merge where multiple people win Immunity! That Defusing the Bomb challenge in PD was the most fun I've had in a challenge ever. And then that has the fun additional benefit of making players choose their own partners which can kind of show where they stand a little, like I just said earlier (like presumably you wouldn't want to partner with someone you plan to vote out and help them win, for example)

I think this is a good idea. It would increase collaboration and require some social skills. Perhaps my only worry would be that someone could partner with someone and then throw the challenge to ruin their chances, but I think it could also help the longshot odds of winning a challenge in the early merge. I've often wondered if increasing the amount of people who win immunity in the early merge rounds could be good and give those challenges more relevance than I think they have right now.

It is true that someone could throw a challenge to make their partner lose, which is why you allow players to choose their own partners. And if they agree to partner with someone so against them that they are willing to give up their own chance at Immunity and risk going home in order to prevent them from winning, then to me that is on the person going home. Plus someone legit throwing the challenge could be some fun drama.

But I think this helps the minority more than it hurts it, because if two people are clearly on the outs, they can team up together and bam, both can win Immunity and really screw up plans.