Mafiascum.net

Yeah, the wiki pages makes it clearer that they are quite different, but you wouldn't realize that by their current names.

Juggernaut seems like a good replacement and would go a long way towards resolving confusion between those two roles/modifiers as well.

ah well I still see Strong-Willed as explicitly shredding all forms of blocking, redirections, protection, and immunities that apply to the action (Ascetic is an immunity for non-kill actions and Rolestopper is a protective for all actions). Basically nothing short of a Commuter can interfere with the Strong-Willed action's resolution.

but "argue about the minutiae of Strong-Willed" isn't the thread topic, asking whether gendered role names make sense is.

However, the minutiae of Strong-Willed does matter if we are considering Normalizing it, if Strong-Willed doesn't pierce protections and immunities than it can't be used to modifierize Strongman.

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Juggernaut seems like a good replacement and would go a long way towards resolving confusion between those two roles/modifiers as well.

Low key I would like the switch even without the gender association for that reason, as this isn’t the first time it’s come up for me. Also, to preempt accusations of knowing things, I found juggernaut by looking at the wiki page in the first place.

Beloved princess, btw, could easily be shortened to just beloved as a modifier.

Jingle wrote:

In post 25, Ircher wrote:Juggernaut seems like a good replacement and would go a long way towards resolving confusion between those two roles/modifiers as well.

Low key I would like the switch even without the gender association for that reason, as this isn’t the first time it’s come up for me. Also, to preempt accusations of knowing things, I found juggernaut by looking at the wiki page in the first place.

That's what someone who knows things would say

In post 28, Jingle wrote:Beloved princess, btw, could easily be shortened to just beloved as a modifier.

oh yeah I forgot that role exists

but yeah that easily works, Beloved Townie makes perfect sense.

/inb4 someone makes a beloved goon setup.

I'm sure scum BP has been done before.

I mean ego

^ another solid point in favor of changing beloved princess: they’re usually not bulletproof.

I feel like most of the gendered mafia terms are either rare or poorly named enough that the answer to “Should we change them” can be answered with yes.

In post 34, Jingle wrote:I feel like most of the gendered mafia terms are either rare or poorly named enough that the answer to “Should we change them” can be answered with yes.

Any specific instances of "no" or "I don't know"?

I would think Kingmaker (as in both the role and the scenario) might be the hardest to properly term replace as it's both common and not common.

A list of gendered role names in the wiki:

Beloved Princess
Dreaming God (may or may not be gendered)
Godfather
Hero (again, may or may not be gendered)
Huntsman
Judas (this one is going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
King
Kingmaker
(Normal role) Macho (this one gets in this list via being a word that means masculine)
(Normal role) Mailman
Phantom Queen
Priest (yet again, may or may not be gendered)
Prince
Saulus (this one is also going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun)
(Normal role) Strongman
Zombie Lord (this one is a stretch)


Monk may also be considered may or may not be gendered

Beloved Princess Beloved as modifier frees up design space, net positive change.
Dreaming God Could easily be shortened to Dreamer, and the role comes up very rarely anyway.
Godfather might be an exception as a movie reference.
Hero (again, may or may not be gendered) personally I don’t see this as a gendered role, so...
Huntsman already has a name: Elite Bodyguard
Judas (this one is going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun) possible exception as a historical reference, but also just never comes up.
King I don’t know, tbh. Monarch seems like a fine replacement if a replacement is desired.
Kingmaker I think the game theory aspect and gender neutrality of this one make it fine to leave as is?
(Normal role) Macho (this one gets in this list via being a word that means masculine) this and king are probably the most likely to need changing on the basis of being offensive, but I don’t know what we’d change it to.
(Normal role) Mailman I think messenger describes the role better in the first place, but it’s not a hill I’d die on.
Phantom Queen what even is this? Like... has it been used more than once?
Priest (yet again, may or may not be gendered) like hero, I see this as a gender less term, although I am not a final arbiter by any means
Prince barely fits the role, stopgap in the first place
Saulus (this one is also going to be really difficult to find another term for, as this is a proper noun) see Judas
(Normal role) Strongman I support changing this to differentiate between it and strong willed and juggernaut already works as a replacement.
Zombie Lord (this one is a stretch) see phantom queen

Dreaming God -> Dreaming Deity
I'm the one who made Elite Bodyguard up, but it has a nice ring to it i think
Macho -> Hemophiliac?
The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered

otherwise yeah, phantom queen / zombie lord probably shouldn't be on the wiki straight up

otherwise all the other suggested changes seem cool yeah

Fireman -> Firecombatant

Firefighter rather?

Firecombatabt sounds hotter though

In post 37, Gypyx wrote: The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered

All terms that turn into a female version by adding "ess" on the end should just be removed anyway imo. The male term should just become gender-netural.

Dist and Distress.

In post 39, Jake The Wolfie wrote:Fireman -> Firecombatant

Fireman is gendered but the role in the wiki is the gender-neutral Firefighter.

this never bothered me cause it's like getting a male protagonist on a video game... only less so because it's just a name that only you can see and stops there

In post 0, TemporalLich wrote:Gender does not matter (and should not matter - otherwise the mod is both sexist and a bad mod) in rands,

I feel like this could be in dispute in the niche case where it's a metagame about the players themselves.

In post 37, Gypyx wrote:The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered

The feminine form of Hero is heroine, but it is entirely accurate to say "Susan B Anthony is a hero of the women's rights movement."

The Anglican Church (one of the forms of Christianity that allows for female priests) still ordains women as priests and deacons.

Both terms are gender neutral, with a feminine specific term attached.

Also, not that it really matters, but Elite BG was at least partially in use in 2014 for shadowmod's viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60270&hilit=elite as they used it to describe the Who/Me hydra action. I'm not actually sure when the first instance of it was though.

I honestly think it doesn't matter, all things considered. Unless we're actively missing out on new scummers because of this (or the current scummers we have feel offended by the gendered terminology), I don't think it's really necessary.

In post 47, Jingle wrote:

In post 37, Gypyx wrote:The female verions of Preist is Priestress so yeah, this is indeed gendered

The feminine form of Hero is heroine, but it is entirely accurate to say "Susan B Anthony is a hero of the women's rights movement."

The Anglican Church (one of the forms of Christianity that allows for female priests) still ordains women as priests and deacons.

Both terms are gender neutral, with a feminine specific term attached.

Also, not that it really matters, but Elite BG was at least partially in use in 2014 for shadowmod's viewtopic.php?f=54&t=60270&hilit=elite as they used it to describe the Who/Me hydra action. I'm not actually sure when the first instance of it was though.

Earlier than that. I remember seeing it in a 2012 or 2013 game while doing a meta dive.