Mini Normal 2223 | Town Wins!

[MathBlade]

Math did you think I was paranoid of you last day phase?
Same question to Kyo.

Yes but no? I think you were tight lipped towards me but I figured it was you being smart but I didn’t attribute it to me directly,

[MathBlade]

I didnt care what you were thinking last day phase because I'd townbinned you the Night before and I was suspicious of Math/Marci. I became increasingly suspicious of Math when he started to change his tune on giving reads before ELO, so I hunkered down on pushing for no lim and tried not to comment on much else.

I don't remember thinking you were suspicious of me, but even if I had thought that, I wouldnt really care whether you were, because you were going to no lim, and if you had suspicions on me I would deal with them today if you were still alive

Again when day started I completely expected this to have to be an elo due to draw rules and expected there to an elim that day.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Imho it’s between Kyo and Marci for the final scum. I have work but will check back later tonight. I think they should give their cases on scum.

Comes into what he thought would be the last day uncommitted, again looking for someone else to do the work for him.

VOTE: No Lim

?

I think this kinda doesn’t really matter to no lim Dwlee. I would rather sort this out with you rather than one of us guess wrong.

I think scum either no kill or kill me if we no elim.

I think both of us sorting this out together gives the best chance at victory.

If he thinks he's going to die, he should be reading Marci and I now and determining which he thinks is scum and casing one or both of us himself, while he and dwlee are both alive. It doesnt occur to him that if Marci or I are scum that we could kill dwlee to cut off his closest ally. At the time it was still 3 votes to hammer no lim. He's also fine with Dwlee going for no lim, but not fine when I do it below:

This has not been clarified in the rules, but when there are 3 consecutive day/night phases without any action from the mafia andno elimination the game will end and everyone will lose.

The result of no elim/no kill loops is revealed

VOTE: no elim

immediately dwlee and I are on the same page - we can no elim 3 times to force scum's hand. Before knowing it would be lose-lose, I was just going to try no elim once or twice, to see if scum would kill. I actually thought that Math would not kill so I was surprised to see final 3 the next day.

VOTE: no elim

I hate this vote. We know scum have to kill now or lose. Why would you cut day short before getting reads from everyone we can use tonight?

So I dont know how "we" are meant to use the reads at night but possibly Math is slipping that he wants the reads to influence the NK. Certainly he isn't talking about rereading overnight because he hasn't done that at all in this game.

VOTE: no elim

I hate this vote. We know scum have to kill now or lose. Why would you cut day short before getting reads from everyone we can use tonight?

Getting reads from everyone right now will inform scum's kill decision. I don't think anyone but me has been rereading overnight anyways, and I did my reread last night. I'm ready for final 3, don't need additional reads from anyone.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Someone will likely die tonight and we want their opinion before end of day so we have it in elo.

Mmm that's not logically consistent with what you were saying earlier

What I was saying earlier relied on the usual interpretation is that no elim no kill ends in a draw or happily every after and everyone lives.

Since this is not the case the answer changed.

In the last few I just point out that outing reads now will inform the kill decision and that Math is not being consistent in his response to that criticism. He said he was expecting a draw but now knows both teams lose, and this is what changes it for him. I think his plan was to just take this to a draw if necessary. Sometimes in chess, with the Black pieces (partnered with N_M and your other partner was caught on D1) it is respectable to earn a draw, especially from a losing position.

I want to see what’s on other people’s minds for when I die. Kyo said she won’t >> Huge FoS.

Again Math thinks he will die but is not willing to put out any of his own ideas. He wants others to present cases for him.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yesterday I thought:
No kill means Math is scum
Dwlee getting killed means Marci is scum
If I die it's not on me to solve it anymore, but it would mean Marci was scum. Since dwlee and Math are attached at the hip, town will win if I die.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I did not expect Math to kill Marci

[Dwlee99]

I'm also lost on the Marci kill but I think it is one of those things that is specifically meant to give no info and I think that sort of thing is more likely from math than you especially if he thought I was pocketed.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also thought if I died possibly it could be Math, but in that case I felt it would be futile to try to convince Dwlee to eliminate Math before F3, and that a Math-Dwlee-Marci final 3 would result in a dead Marci regardless of my efforts yesterDay

[Dwlee99]

I think if you were dead I would probably still get math cause I didn't think Marci would try to WIFOM like that.

[Dwlee99]

Kyo is doing a good job town telling here but I'm gonna give you more time to post some thoughts out Math cause I know you have work and stuff.

[MathBlade]

Kyo is going to seem town because that’s what she’s good at.

I don’t do cases I usually do sheer force of will and logic.

I will do my best tonight but that’s not my strong suit.

[Dwlee99]

Whenever you're ready.

[MathBlade]

Sorry had stuff come up. I will try to get this tonight

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Getting a bit sick so this is coming from my phone.

Just some D2 stuff, looking at Math's stance on Max that day.

Because I find that you asking a random lurker for a claim rather troubling when again, fypov this game would likely be close to solved.

Yet furthermore you’re asking this in one of three scenarios
A> You think/know Max is a PR and Titus protective babysitter town and therefore outing a PR is a good way to ensure Titus can’t protect them
Or B > You think/know Max is a PR and You think / know Titus is scum and are banking on a protective
Or C> You think/know Max is a VT

None of these situations are good to ask for a claim in.

Another incongruency.

I do not have a stance on Max as Max is quiet along with a few others

But this is not consistent with town play.

Pedit: Congrats Titus!

Early in the day Math purportedly has no stance on Max, but throughout the day is passively resistant to the wagon. He doesnt come out and say anything to defend Max for a while but is pushing Dwlee to provide a case on Max.

Math why do you think Max is town?

Because no one has followed you yet I really gotta go sorry.

So now about 100 posts later, Dwlee asks Math why Max is town. At this point, Math has not said Max was town yet, but apparently from Math's response he now is thinking Max is town. The reason isn't very strong though, just that nobody followed Dwlee. I suspect Math committed to townreading Max after Max claimed VT though, because if you TR a VT it leaves you open to try to push wagons on other players that may have a PR.

Math why do you think Max is town?

The short version is that much as I reviewed your post is the argument is the ISO is bare and she’s lurking.

So? I don’t know her. I don’t know what she does as town vs scum.

I haven’t seen anything that is anti town other than lurker which fits a ton of people.

Between that and no one chomping on the bit to join you or interact means that scum likely don’t care/don’t want to be seen on the wagon, making her likely town.

Guess you can call it gamestate vibes.

Now there's more of an explanation, but I think the conclusion is wrong. He says scum likely dont care/dont want to be seen on the wagon, but that ignores the possibility that scum dont want to bus when they're already down 1. This is something Dwlee brings up next. It feels like Math is working backwards from Max being town, rather than trying to sort Max.

Or scum aren't hopping on because she is scum.

Possible but not probable.

Aiming at a lurker is kinda a dart board in a dozen.

They either A> produce content B> Get replaced or C>Get policy elimmed.

Surely we can do better than a policy elim after getting scum?

So now math is referring to Max as a policy lim and Math is against it. This is a stark contrast to when Math was crusading to policy elim scum. I think it shows Math is informed that he has one stance on policy eliminating town, and another on policy eliminating scum.

Lack of interaction with a scumbud is incriminating, would you not say?

Not when it describes like a good chunk of the game.

Like that’s what I don’t get here.

I could pick out a good 3-4 people who are “non interactor”s with DGB why her?

This is just wasting Dwlee's time having him chase after Max. A good portion of Math's content on D2 is getting Dwlee to chase Max, and getting me to look at Titus. I actually had forgotten about that until I reread. That is the scummiest thing Math has done this game I think. It really stuck out to me at the time but I never got a response from Titus and I got distracted by Max and forgot.

Basically theres an interaction where Math is pressing me to scumread Titus, by asking leading questions about her. I TRed her, but wasn't sure about Math, so I was trying to sort Math through the interaction. I was answering his questions which were about Titus' claim, and he started accusing me of being inconsistent with regards to Titus - like I TRed her yesterday so why am I shading her now and not voting her. I shut him down for it as well, and I think that's why he steered more clear the rest of the game, because I wasn't easy to cast shade on. I told him I wasn't shading Titus, that I still TRed her and that I was more interested in sorting him via our interaction, that I was trying to inspect Titus from his pov to see if I missed anything. I dont think he liked that. Seems like Math's MO is to get town to eat each other - he doesnt get his hands dirty.

If it's not clear why Mathnis town on red flip, it is that Saudade moved the wagon from Looker to Max, and Looker/DGB flipped Goon

Quoting this because Max flipped green so Saudade (Math) moved a wagon from Looker (DGB) to Max on D1.

If you need reasons, town!max isn't a tunneler, she actually interacts. She posts more. She doesn't call people misguided town.

Scum!max does call people misguided town and her reaction is to buddy in response to pressure (see dwlee). She comments on the night kills. She posts reads lists with little to no reasoning attached. She lurks more.

Scum!max means town!mathblade and last scum is probably salsabil. The last 2 scum having English as a second language explains why Manatee and I were both not killed. That and my solve at end of day 1 pointed to 2 town.

I promise to take a look at that game but how exactly is max tunneling this game?
I am shit with scumreads but I am pretty good with town ones and Max is a townread.
Like call it a vibe but I really think she’s town.
I wish I could explain it but I don’t think she is scum.

Even when Math is calling Max town, in the same posts he is asking me to prove she is scum. Same way he did to Dwlee when they were trying to Wagon Max: "No Max is town for no reason, but you should scumcase her and get back to me (:"

Yay an actual case! I will sleep on it tonight and look stuff up.

Maybe my vibes are wrong.

And then I post a case, Math says he'll sleep on it, but seems interested, and then Max dies before Math comes back.

Math

hardly

defended Max at all. A couple of times he would say he thinks Max is town, but would provide no dayplay-related reasons, just gamestate. Generally Math just seemed indifferent about Max, but he wanted Dwlee and I both to chase cases on Max, in the same breath in which he would call her town.

[MathBlade]

The case for Kyo (Chronological)

(Bold and underlined I think are more damning)
----- DAY ONE ------

• Chainsaw defends looker, then votes Looker, then after very little time switches to Roden despite scumreading them both. She never pushed Looker at all and immediately goes for Roden.
  
  Spoiler: Support posts

  VOTE: looker
  
  @looker any reason u havent lay down a vote?

  Hello.
  It's 5am here, and I'm spending the day decorating:(

  VOTE: Titus

  Disagree. Hilarious.

  Disagree with your disagree
  
  VOTE: Looker

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Didn't get an answer to this.

  {Looker, Roden, ???}

  Everything up to 172 is RVS, but in no way does it try to get out of RVS

  Hi I'm a miller

  Would you happen to be...Informed?

  informed of DN

  What is DN?

  Oh no.

  I'm not sure what DN is but why do I feel a sinking feeling shit's going sideways?

  A Death Neighborizer!?

  Deez Nuts

  But yeah it feels like RVS is going on a bit too long.

  I think scum's getting restless with RVS and is waiting for someone to make a move they can pounce on

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Here there is a believable attempt to start solving, but since then, feels like a good amount has happened that Roden could be commenting on, especially given they feel RVS is going on too long

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Didn't get an answer to this.

  But instead of continuing to look for solving info they're making a busy post.
  
  VOTE: Roden

  Women = Roden, and I'm not switching because I like owo more. The cliqueyness was half-assed. It can be re-attacked later.

  We get it, you're either scum claiming or you're a PR trying to hide yourself with scumminess so you don't get NK'd. Whatever, moving on.
  

  {Looker, Roden, ???}

  I'm sorry, what?
  

  Everything up to 172 is RVS, but in no way does it try to get out of RVS

  Hi I'm a miller

  Would you happen to be...Informed?

  informed of DN

  What is DN?

  Oh no.

  I'm not sure what DN is but why do I feel a sinking feeling shit's going sideways?

  A Death Neighborizer!?

  Deez Nuts

  But yeah it feels like RVS is going on a bit too long.

  I think scum's getting restless with RVS and is waiting for someone to make a move they can pounce on

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Here there is a believable attempt to start solving, but since then, feels like a good amount has happened that Roden could be commenting on, especially given they feel RVS is going on too long

  general consensus seems to be a dislike of their entry which i think is pretty nai

  translation: stop wagoning my partner for wrong reasons

  Hero solve: Max + Manatee + Marci

  How serious is this?

  Didn't get an answer to this.

  But instead of continuing to look for solving info they're making a busy post.
  
  VOTE: Roden

  Because I didn't comment on everything and instead want to know how serious an accusation is, I'm scum?

  It's not so much about what you did, but what you didn't do.
  
  As for you and looker I had individual SRs on you both but then your response to his 220 could be an SvS interaction so it makes me feel better about both reads, especially so for early game

  
  
  
• No explanation for why DGB moved to the top of her read wall. Despite looker and DGB being the same slot. She also preshades herself that she doesn't her townread group which is a common scum tell. Scum will more often insert a "might be wrong" when it is. Not her scumreads Max and you are both town.
  
  Spoiler: Support posts

  Town
  Salsabil
  DGB
  Roden
  omo
  Saudade
  
  Townlean
  Not_Mafia
  
  Null
  Titus
  Geraint
  
  Limbo
  Marci
  Manatee
  
  Scum
  Max
  Dwlee
  
  This is where I'm at. Take my TRs with a grain of salt though because I'm generally bad at identifying town and better at finding scum.

  
  
  
• Kyo focuses continuously on Dwlee and is the "star" of the show, which is 100% necessary for a deep wolf game. If she doesn't get attraction she will lose and fast. She does this through several fights including an "ongoing" fight with you.
  
  
• Kyo votes Marci but then said she'd do manatee as well.
  
  
• Kyo posts another readwall with townreading DGB still. Also includes Not Mafia as town but not town. Again this is a common scum thing to do for a buddy.
  
  Spoiler: support post

  Roden, could I just get a reads list from you rq, I just wanna see where you are at.
  
  Dwlee and Kyouko you too.
  
  I wanna help consolidate today and starting with just listening to people I most townread atp is gonna help

  I'm going to trust that my TRs are right and that N_M can read geraint and take him out of the pool for today. Marci, Manatee, Max is my pool right now.
  
  Roden, omo, mathblade, salsa, DGB, all town
  Titus off the table
  Dwlee unsure, willing to accept he is town for toDay
  N_M I dont think I can read him in my first game.with him but he seems town and some other people say that too. Apparently he can read geraintm as well...
  So geraintm off the table for toDay, because I think the compromise is not going to happen there.
  
  Leaving Max, Manatee, and Marci. I'd like to lim Max because she seems useless as town and as scum she lurked to the end in my last game with her and won, but I think there is something fishy between Marci and Manatee and I'd really like to go with either of them today. I feel like at least 1 is scum.

• Not Mafia will lolhammer despite being first game with not mafia. How does she know if it's her first game? Answer she's scum with him.
  
  
  Spoiler: Support post

  i think i'll vote marci based on her repsonse to rodens questioning cos i think it was very good

  Dont put her to e-1 yet, not_mafia will lolhammer

  
  
  
• 987 and 983 are angling desperately for a no elim but then she remembers if she was on town she'd look horrible if it no elims. So out of no where she votes her buddy. 994 is also where she says Not Mafia can hammer for the lolz and she has already preplanned to attack whoever votes sixth. She never intended for it to go all the way.
  
  
  Spoiler: Support posts

  UNVOTE: I don't even know with this game anymore. Theres a hole in my reads somewhere.
  I guess I could do max
  VOTE: max
  
  Pedit: Roden I think omo was voting Marci while she was he wagon and the same post you thought was townie from Marci, he thought too. So did I.

  Fuck it what about this iso?
  Desperately flocking to the prevailing wagons seemingly for no reason, assuming they're both town, 962 is the perfect time to make that post as scum. You get the towncred but also the prevailing wagons are TvT and it's safe to do so.
  
  No content. Flip-flops onto town wagons without reason. Tries to scoop up low-hanging towncred. Yeet
  
  VOTE: DrippingGoofball

  I summon the powers of roden, omo, manatee, and Marci to turboelim this scumbag. It's partner can bus it with the 6th vote and not_mafia can hammer for the lulz

(Going to go on to Day two late tonight / early tomorrow) Bold is the important.

[Dwlee99]

So one thing I'm thinking about is the Titus babysit and the Roden night kill. I think Kyo talked about the Roden NK but didn't talk about how Titus' babysitting choice played into it I think?

The reason I think this is important is because Math was pointing out the claim to Titus, and she then decided to babysit Manatee. Kyo why do you think Math didn't NK Titus there (beyond just that Titus didn't think Math was the towniest) and Math why do you think Kyo didn't NK Titus?

[MathBlade]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

[MathBlade]

The one thing she didn’t account for though is if I am scum Titus is a 100% top tier kill when I can get away with it.
She always finds some way to suspect me, so I have to kill her fast usually if scum if I get any excuse that doesn’t point to me.

[Dwlee99]

I disagree with scum you needing to kill Titus because you just won with her in ELO. When I was reading that ELO for fun I was 100% sure you were scum and DGB was town.

[MathBlade]

I disagree with scum you needing to kill Titus because you just won with her in ELO. When I was reading that ELO for fun I was 100% sure you were scum and DGB was town.

I couldn’t get away with killing her that game. Buddying was the only option.

[MathBlade]

I am amazed she even went for it in elo

I thought I was screwed.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Cant quote 2338 because I cant embed more than 10 quotes together

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm not sure where I chainsawed Looker, I'm assuming you're talking about my Titus vote? I was scum with her in another game at the time and felt like she was kinda lurky in that game. She seemed a bit lurky here too so that's why I voted for her.

Regarding Roden and Looker: I had a weaker read on Looker than Roden. Looker was vibes, Roden I had a case I wanted to push. I determined by pushing Roden and interacting with him that I was wrong and correctly TRed him. By this time I think Looker had been replaced and I was getting good vibes from DGB. I thought it was being more proactive than Looker and mistakenly thought it was town, and shifted my.focus elsewhere. I later realized when it seemed like all of the other wagons were dead ends that something was not right in my TRs, so I went back to examine the ones that I had not sorted under pressure. At this point DGB's ISO stuck out to me and I turned the tides on it. I was not angling for a no lim, I wanted to hit scum and did not think Marci, Manatee, or Roden were going to flip scum. We still had plenty of time left to find an elimination, and it was scum DGB that was trying to force us to choose between two town wagons about 2-3 days from the deadline. I believe you also, more lightly, pushed a similar sentiment when you said omo is a vanity wagon and you moved your vote elsewhere.

I was the "star" of OMB and Siege of Aurelia as well. I am powertown. I am not very good at scum and more often than not play it passively. As town I am vigilant and oftentimes I flip flop. I'm not scared to be wrong, or to go against a previous read, because I reread a lot, especially when I mislim town.

I definitely dont focus continuously on dwlee on D1. I have a lot of different scumreads throughout D1, and I push and sort many of them.

Allowing a null slot to avoid being the D1 lim because my townreads trust in the slot is not a problem. I am uninformed, so I had no way of knowing what this slot I had trouble reading was. I was willing to let him go for the day, like I did with Dwlee. On D1 for me it's about finding out who is town, who is not necessarily town, but not likely to be scum, and then flip someone in the poe. I didnt see you pushing for N_M's elimination on D1 either.

As for knowing N_M lolhammers: word gets around about him, and I read a lot of games I dont play in, because I am often reliant on meta. I have read games that included Not_Mafia, and have heard he will lolhammer, and that people joke about "N_M-1", as in E-2, because N_M will hammer if you out someone on E-1, so in games with him you have to be careful and put people to E-2 but not E-1

I didnt even read 987 or 983 but I can tell you it was not me going for a no lim. I have played a lot of games and I know better than to no lim except in rare circumstances like MELO. I never give up on catching scum, even close to deadline. I love a good flashwagon. You'll notice though that I did not automatically push the 6th voter on the wagon, as that was Math, and I was most focused on Dwlee, Omo, and Max the next Day.

I did intend it to go all the way. I had the chance to flashwagon Salsa as well and I didn't do that. I've eliminated scum twice this game, though the second time I was compromising. I am always willing to compromise on someone I don't hard TR to achieve an elimination, which I proved on D3 or 4 when we killed N_M

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So one thing I'm thinking about is the Titus babysit and the Roden night kill. I think Kyo talked about the Roden NK but didn't talk about how Titus' babysitting choice played into it I think?

The reason I think this is important is because Math was pointing out the claim to Titus, and she then decided to babysit Manatee. Kyo why do you think Math didn't NK Titus there (beyond just that Titus didn't think Math was the towniest) and Math why do you think Kyo didn't NK Titus?

2 main reasons that come to mind are 1) Math was buddying Titus successfully and her babysitter claim was still in question. He knew she was town but maybe he as her sibling expected her to be lying to trick him in some way, like to bait him into shooting at her if she was like, a commuter or a hider or Bulletproof or something.
2) and this is he more important one, Roden was the only person in good standing, possibly the only person fullstop, who wafull stop, Math as a scumread. Saudade was fairly TRed I think, and Math was too, but Roden was suspicious of Math. I think Math's style is passive and that this kind of kill will grant him better success than going for Titus, because he wont be pressured if the only one SRing him dies.

[Dwlee99]

Flashbacks to when people thought you were night killed in that one game for your reads and then it was just bambi jay's whim.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My theory is that she knows Roden or she has to be the top dog so getting me and Koba to fight gives her space but that didn’t happen. I don’t know her enough to know which this is

I never tried to get you and Koba to fight so this is just made up. I also had no reason to be threatened by Roden if I was scum. Look at his reads. He trusted me, and he sheeped me.