[MT2225] Chrono Trigger Chronicles - The Rise/Fall of Yakra

[Lukewarm]

What stuck out to me was that

you wanted me gone as a policy elim

but then you back tracked and town leaned me when I confronted you on it. It felt like an odd string of reactions, like you were trying to protect a scum buddy from getting wagon'd since there were a few popular choices, but then got wary because

you realized I self voted for a legitimate reason

.

I never wanted you as a policy elim. I wanted you to stop self voting.

So he is either a townie who should be policy voted for not playing to win, or he is scum trying to make a play.

Either way, I am happy to vote him as long as his self vote is in place

.

I had you as a town read day 1. Day 2, I thought that you had been a bit worse, so pushed you down closer to null. (Then I policy voted you). Then you push on me looked like shit, and I started entertaining the idea that you really were scum. Then when I did meta on you, it put you back to town.

The second bolded part never happened. I am still frustrated that you self voted, and this line in particular pissed me off

Nora I'd literally rather spite you and get us both voted out if you're going to go out of your way to throw this game for town. I want to go to the dead PT, see your confirmed alignment, and laugh as you crumble Day 3.

[Dwlee99]

He did some decent "I'm definitely not frog" posting as well lol

Including my night kill speculation that house was the N1 kill lol

I figured to protect t3 because he kept saying people should flavor claim before they get eliminated and he seemed like a choice scum would make even if they knew a doctor was in the game.

[Lukewarm]

I guess the thing that actually confused me this game, was that you and house seemed to not reconsider prior thoughts given new information.

House was suspicious that I pitted his claim against Roberts claim. Which, sure. Be suspicious of that PRE flip. But once Robert flipped scum, that stops making sense for scum!Luke to do. Linking him there actually just means I am spewing House town.

You were both suspicious that I "asked for cred" on T3 (which was meant to be a joke btw) but then did not come back once T3 flipped town, and think wait. Scum luke would not have done that.

Also, scum luke is never going to be out actively asking for cred. Instead, I would be subtle and Agree with House's push, and link back my own stuff, and then vote T3. Show that I spotted it, instead of ASKING house for it lmao

[Lukewarm]

That being said, I was never actually all that worried that I was going to get miselimed at any point prior to Elo, so I was just kinda tucking things like that away incase we ever got there. I think that this was a decently easy game to town case me in lol

[Roden]

What stuck out to me was that

you wanted me gone as a policy elim

but then you back tracked and town leaned me when I confronted you on it. It felt like an odd string of reactions, like you were trying to protect a scum buddy from getting wagon'd since there were a few popular choices, but then got wary because

you realized I self voted for a legitimate reason

.

I never wanted you as a policy elim. I wanted you to stop self voting.

So he is either a townie who should be policy voted for not playing to win, or he is scum trying to make a play.

Either way, I am happy to vote him as long as his self vote is in place

.

I had you as a town read day 1. Day 2, I thought that you had been a bit worse, so pushed you down closer to null. (Then I policy voted you). Then you push on me looked like shit, and I started entertaining the idea that you really were scum. Then when I did meta on you, it put you back to town.

The second bolded part never happened. I am still frustrated that you self voted, and this line in particular pissed me off

Nora I'd literally rather spite you and get us both voted out if you're going to go out of your way to throw this game for town. I want to go to the dead PT, see your confirmed alignment, and laugh as you crumble Day 3.

A policy vote kinda heavily implies a policy elim, and I think if you had tried to explain it that way in-game I might've actually tunneled you for it. Though tbh if you'd articulated your emotional response I would've likely town read you for it instead.

[Lukewarm]

What stuck out to me was that

you wanted me gone as a policy elim

but then you back tracked and town leaned me when I confronted you on it. It felt like an odd string of reactions, like you were trying to protect a scum buddy from getting wagon'd since there were a few popular choices, but then got wary because

you realized I self voted for a legitimate reason

.

I never wanted you as a policy elim. I wanted you to stop self voting.

So he is either a townie who should be policy voted for not playing to win, or he is scum trying to make a play.

Either way, I am happy to vote him as long as his self vote is in place

.

I had you as a town read day 1. Day 2, I thought that you had been a bit worse, so pushed you down closer to null. (Then I policy voted you). Then you push on me looked like shit, and I started entertaining the idea that you really were scum. Then when I did meta on you, it put you back to town.

The second bolded part never happened. I am still frustrated that you self voted, and this line in particular pissed me off

Nora I'd literally rather spite you and get us both voted out if you're going to go out of your way to throw this game for town. I want to go to the dead PT, see your confirmed alignment, and laugh as you crumble Day 3.

A policy vote kinda heavily implies a policy elim, and I think if you had tried to explain it that way in-game I might've actually tunneled you for it. Though tbh if you'd articulated your emotional response I would've likely town read you for it instead.

If you had not stopped self voting prior to you getting eliminated, then I would have not felt bad about policy eliming you.

But I explicitly said that if you stopped voting yourself, that my policy vote would go away. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Lukewarm]

A policy vote kinda heavily implies a policy elim, and I think if you had tried to explain it that way in-game I might've actually tunneled you for it. Though tbh if you'd articulated your emotional response I would've likely town read you for it instead.

I did not have an very strong emotional response

I saw you self vote, and saw that post about being willing to throw the game, and I thought "well that's fucked up, he would throw a team game, tanking the rest of his team.. but I am sure that he will unvote once he cools off"

Then you didn't...

Then I thought, "I don't want to play with a person who will be throwing a game this way while calm. I am going to vote him until he stops self voting." It looked like you were not playing to your win condition, which is against site rules, so it was a policy vote.

And to be clear. If you post anything similar to that post in a future game, I will vote you for it all over again.

Like I said, you were not even my biggest scum read when I first voted you (or a scum read at all tbh), but my thoughts on your alignment do not matter on what I would consider a policy vote.

[Roden]

I guess the thing that actually confused me this game, was that you and house seemed to not reconsider prior thoughts given new information.

House was suspicious that I pitted his claim against Roberts claim. Which, sure. Be suspicious of that PRE flip. But once Robert flipped scum, that stops making sense for scum!Luke to do. Linking him there actually just means I am spewing House town.

You were both suspicious that I "asked for cred" on T3 (which was meant to be a joke btw) but then did not come back once T3 flipped town, and think wait. Scum luke would not have done that.

Also, scum luke is never going to be out actively asking for cred. Instead, I would be subtle and Agree with House's push, and link back my own stuff, and then vote T3. Show that I spotted it, instead of ASKING house for it lmao

Like I said, once we got to seven players it just became a point of who looked the least townie in a group of people who looked really town. It wasn't that I wasn't reconsidering prior information, to me it was "how do we have a group of people so blatantly town?", but then the answer was just that one person never had a chance to look scummy.

Like, if it wasn't Mastina, who should we think it is? You can argue you don't make those plays as scum, but neither does everyone else.

[Lukewarm]

Like I said, once we got to seven players it just became a point of who looked the least townie in a group of people who looked really town. It wasn't that I wasn't reconsidering prior information, to me it was "how do we have a group of people so blatantly town?", but then the answer was just that one person never had a chance to look scummy.

Yeah. The final day was strange. No one seemed like scum, and it was more like sorting by strength of Null to Town

[T3]

Flip and Flavour

The room fell silent as the final accusations were declared, the air itself became thick with the stench of evil anger as the magics once again took effect, putting everyone in the room deep into sleep.

Nobody knows how long they were asleep for, but each knight recalls being awoken by a strange sensation, powerful magics, perhaps?

As each Knight rose, they saw Queen Leene thanking each knight individually for their services to the Crown and to Guardia.

It soon came clear that whatever magics had been used to shroud this place, were no longer active, and that Mastina was no longer present. It would seem

Mastina, Mystic Goon

was the last of Magus' remaining forces in this place.

The Knights of Guardia with the aid of Crono, Frog and Lucca have driven back the Mystics and earched their Victory!

lol

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My first 3 scumreads were 3 for 3 but I veered off before I died unfortunately

This one could have been special

[Noraa]

80% of my volatility with you

ehhh stop right there. thats a horrible way to read people. i would have policy elimmed you there as well and that is what poking people with big sticks typically leads to anyways.

[mastina]

No redactions from me; you'll see why I'm not too terribly disappointed once the scum PT is released.

[mastina]

I do think that town needed less strong flavour claims.

I mean town having strong flavor claims isn't a problem so long as you also give mod-provided strong flavor claims to the scum, flavor claims that do not rely on the scum having knowledge of the source material.

[mastina]

I do have the next game planned, CTC II

/pre-in

^This pls. I see no reason to not play every game in this series. <3

[mastina]

I operated under the assumption the game was being ran true to lore and only expected the 3 main characters of the battle to be PR's.

While I wasn't sure of this, it was something that I more or less had guessed at, too, past a certain point.

[Roden]

80% of my volatility with you

ehhh stop right there. thats a horrible way to read people. i would have policy elimmed you there as well and that is what poking people with big sticks typically leads to anyways.

This is kinda exactly why I had to play it that way. You made it really hard for me to try to scum hunt and solve because you kept loudly and aggressively discrediting me whenever you weren't town reading me. I correctly deduced that Kyouko vs Guillo was TvS and was a fake interaction (Guillo was scum and Kyouko admitted she faked parts of her interaction). And I was right in saying you and Kyouko vs me was likely TvT because both of you were acting too aggressive and shortsighted to actually be scum. But then you hard defended Guillo, got Kyouko mis-elim'd, and said I had to be scum because I was playing with too much nuance to be town.

Like, what exactly am I supposed to do in this situation if I can't get town read by you through normal means? Your influence alone didn't get me widely scum read of course, but it absolutely did not help. I had to play into my "meta" to get you to back off before both of us derailed the game. You don't have to like it, but if I have to play up being unpleasant to get town read then I'm going to be as unpleasant as I possibly can be. Once you backed off you can clearly see I was no longer on chopping block, so I stopped and just went back to solving.

So yes, I'm sorry I was unpleasant. But I genuinely believed I didn't have a choice if I wanted to avoid getting mis-elim'd and have a chance to actually find scum.

[mastina]

I said this a few times, but the only reason that the claims broke it was because the scum team was not very aware of the flavor. I think that the only change you really needed to make was to give them a list of flavor appropriate flavor claims. Like 1751

Flea did give flavor claims, just not appropriate for the setting; the only claims that would've fit for the time period in question were claims from the accessible area in 600 AD the first time you go to 600 AD--and Flea did not limit safe flavor to that era so with the only person flavor-knowledgeable not able to chime in quickly enough to inform them to not make the wrong claims...

[Roden]

Hopefully that explains some things for Luke as well.

Also, /pre-in.

[Dwlee99]

I'm gonna go with a /pre-in as well.

[mastina]

No one seemed like scum

We're in a really tough spot and I don't think it's wise to trust anyone unless we figure out a hard clear.

I have a philosophy for precisely this situation!
It's a philosophy that causes a great deal of grief to town players who're, rightly, miffed that they are suddenly being scumread out of what amounts to paranoia, but in spite of that inherent flaw to the philosophy, I consider it a necessary evil to invoke it when we get to the situation where the last scum can't be found easily:
"When everyone has a reason to be town, it means at least one person who has reason to be town, isn't."
Or some variation on that to give the same basic meaning.

Which is that you have to delve into the reasons for every player being town and delve into the reasons for every player being scum. If a player has absolutely no reason to be scum, then you aren't being critical enough in your evaluation/thinking. Even a player who you can soulread, have strong meta on, have very very strong reasons to be town, isn't immune to this--if you can't see the reasons for that player possibly being scum, you've made a grave mistake, even if the read you have is 200% correct.

The point of this isn't so much to have zero townreads and to scumread everyone, but to engage in more thorough critical thinking, that both gets rid of your biases, gets rid of your preconceived notions, and forces you to analyze more deeply and thoroughly every slot in the game and then weigh them on a scale. So that player who you can soulread and have strong meta on and has strong reasons to be town? After you can see the reasons for that player to possibly be scum, you then dismantle the reasons for why they could possibly be scum by recognizing how weak those reasons are, how unlikely those reasons are, and reestablish how strong the reasons for them to be town are, to solidify them as a slot you should never ever eliminate, at the top of your tierlist from towniest to scumiest.

And then you keep on doing that for every slot in the game, repeating the analysis. Weighing the merits of the reasons for them to be scum (are they valid or are they surface) vs. weighing the merits of the reasons for them to be town (are they valid or are they surface) to evaluate towniest to least-townie overall, instead of trying to necessarily locate the final scum.

This feels gross to me. Like maybe very true at Elo, where we are right now, this looks like trying to enlarge the miselim pool

Read it again? Actually READ read it? Because the approach I mentioned is doing the opposite of enlarging the mislim pool--it is attempting to narrow it down to the precise number of scum in the game, in a gamestate where doing so is difficult.

By critically analyzing what could make a slot be scum versus what could make that slot be town, pointing out the strengths/weaknesses in both sides to determine which side is stronger and by how much, you can rank people more easily from towniest to least-townie and the *number of scum--in this case, one* at the bottom of your list after you go through this effort is the most likely to be the remaining scum.

If everyone has reason to be town, at least one player with a reason to be town, isn't. In the case of this game, precisely one player. The approach I mentioned doesn't cast suspicion onto everyone. It evaluates, critically, everyone but then rebuilds the townreads on some players to be stronger than they were originally. (Basically, it's like the process of a muscle getting stronger. You tear down the muscle and it rebuilds itself to be stronger. In this case, you tear down the townread but then rebuild it to be stronger than it was before.)

Ideally, you rebuild the townreads on all but the scum, who then you promptly eliminate. But in a worst case scenario, it still is useful for you in determining which players you trust the most.

(Technically speaking, this approach can be applied at any time. However, it is more difficult than normal scumhunting so I only employ it when either the entire playerlist is filled to the brim with folks I know are skilled as both alignments a la team mafiaesque games or when we've eliminated the obvious scum and are struggling to close the game out, as is the case for this game since we don't have an obvious third scum to eliminate here. Normal scumhunting can just be snap-judgements of X is scum Y is town, but this approach is far more thorough and time-consuming require more in-depth analysis and thought and effort and mental loops to jump through so I'm too lazy to use it most of the time.)

This wasn't me being scum, by the way! This was my genuine advice for how to solve that situation!

When everyone has a reason to be town, but at least one person by necessity is not town, this is the approach I use.

On the last day phase, everyone had a reason to be town, but at least one person was by necessity scum--granted I didn't mention that using my own approach would lead me to be the scum since by my own method I would be the universal elimination because I had the fewest good reasons to be town and the most reasons to be scum due to surprise surprise being the last scum, butstill. I wasn't making some scum ploy with this advice; I was genuinely giving you how I recommend approaching things in that situation.

[LavosCore]

Yeah I've learned my lesson around flavour, people will want safeclaim despite the VT PM being there and clear.

Also that's 6 preins o.o

[Roden]

And to be clear. If you post anything similar to that post in a future game, I will vote you for it all over again.

I wouldn't, if only because it was situational to begin with, and it wouldn't work if it was expected anyway.

[LavosCore]

OK looks like I can't accept al the pre-ins, so they will be first come first serve, but I'll be sure to send a PM out once the game hits sign ups...


Or I try and rebalance for a larger game again lol

[Guillotina]

No redactions from me, i guess I have to say it