Dwlee99 wrote:Hi Implosion, I forgot to message you when I /in'd earlier for the mini normal queue. Sorry about that. Here's the info:
Suggested role list pre-review:
Setup notes: Mafia can multitask abilities and the factional kill. Any PTs will be always open.
Mafia Announcing Mailman
Mafia Combined Rolecop Rolestopper
Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic
Town Novice Traffic Analyst
Town One-shot Simple Cop Neighbor
Town One-shot Activated Combined Bulletproof Ascetic Neighbor
Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborize, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblock)
Town Simple Jailkeeper
5x VT
Review concerns in advance: Can the Rolecop Rolestopper exist by normal guidelines? That is, by NAR the rolecop action should occur after the rolestop, but I would like for it to occur before. Is this possible, or will it have to be reworked?
Role PMs:
Spoiler: Role PMs
Start Post:
Dank Meme Mafia: The Squeakquel
Current Game State:
Pregame
Public Game Knowledge:
The mafia are by default multitasking and any PTs are always open.
Rule list borrowed from TheStatusQuo with slight modifications.
Sample VT Role PM:
Spoiler: Alive (13)
Spoiler: Dead
Dwlee99's Mini Normal Review, July 2021
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Dwlee99's Mini Normal Review, July 2021
Last edited by implosion on Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.- implosion
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It doesn't seem possible to me. I'm pretty sure you can't violate NAR, and I haven't thought of a role combination that would make this possible. Though, if you want to make them decide between rolecopping a townie and rolestopping a partner, you could just do a Rolecop Rolestopper.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Dwlee99
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Combined doesn't make it one action, it's two separate actions forced to target the same player. Agreed, don't believe that role will work correctly, the rolestop would block the rolecop.Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive, so nobody listens!- Dwlee99
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It looks like this this game viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195& shows that there is precedence for combined rolestops. Andres role this game was odd-night combined neighborizer rolestopper.I prefer they, thanks :)- ChaosOmega
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I do agree the setup seems scumsided. The JK can't RB any scum, although they can't block any town power which makes it a little better. The traffic analyst can get a couple different false positives and one false negative with the ascetic, 1-shot simple cop can't get any guilties, only a VT clear. Town complex rolecop and Mafia ascetic is an interesting interaction. Scum power isn't super high here, but rolecop is very useful with no tracking around to catch it. Will wait for Something_Smart's thoughts.
I can't see the review topic for that game, but the Wiki defines combined as "A Combined role necessarily performs all of its constituent actions on the single player it targets each night." The role can exist, but the rolestop will block the rolecop according to NAR since they are not the same action.Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive, so nobody listens!- Dwlee99
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That looks uh wrong.In post 6, Dwlee99 wrote:It looks like this this game viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195& shows that there is precedence for combined rolestops. Andres role this game was odd-night combined neighborizer rolestopper.
@implosion?It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Something_Smart
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Is there a reason for mailman to be announcing?
Is there a reason for bulletproof ascetic rather than commuter?
Is there a reason the rolecop is complex?
(Not that there can't be for any of these, but long role names can be imposing to some people so all else being equal it would be best to shorten them.)It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Something_Smart
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Also, I don't think inherent multitasking is allowed anymore.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Something_Smart
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As it is, it seems scumsided. The traffic analyst will be lucky to get one inno, as will the cop. The rest of the roles feel like mostly filler.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Dwlee99
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The role pm for ease of access.
I'm also noticing I should probably word my role PMs a bit more carefully by adding "assuming no interference with your action."
Pedit: Mailman is announcing mainly because it was recommended on the wiki to make it clear that the message came from a mailman rather than a mod.
Commuter can't make the night kill while commuting.
Rolecop is complex because I want there to be ambiguity in if the action failed because roleblock/ascetic or from the modifier. IE, the ascetic goon can fake claim VT from the rolecop check. And the rolecop is already extremely strong if it targets the rolestopper role, which makes me think it is important to nerf it a bit.I prefer they, thanks :)- Something_Smart
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There's nothing wrong with filler roles, they can make the setup more interesting, but they generally don't change the power level much.
Also, both of the investigatives need to target specific kinds of townies to get an inno, in a way that's pretty hard to predict and therefore is pretty swingy.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Something_Smart
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The town role could still be commuter. And multitasking commuter can, right? Regardless the scum one could just be ascetic, there are no town killing roles.In post 13, Dwlee99 wrote:Commuter can't make the night kill while commuting.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Dwlee99
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I would rather you just make this clear when passing the message e.g. "You have received a message from another player: ..."In post 13, Dwlee99 wrote:Mailman is announcing mainly because it was recommended on the wiki to make it clear that the message came from a mailman rather than a mod.
Complex is fine, it lets scum claim VT if the rolecop claims first.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Something_Smart
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If you really want you can make all the PR's multitasking and make this public setup knowledge.In post 16, Dwlee99 wrote:Bulletproof was to make a red herring for a vig in the setup.
I also was hoping I can make scum default multitasking cause seeing "multitasking mailman" (or similar) is equivalent to a cop guilty.
I mean that goes against the short role guideline but it's necessary to accomplish what you want.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Dwlee99
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If I can't make scum default multitasking I guess I have to just go with that public knowledge thing. It does hint towards the possibility of a rolecop in a way that "scum can multitask the factional kill" doesn't because if there was no rolecop I could just put multitasking on the mafia without caring.I prefer they, thanks :)- ChaosOmega
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Making all PRs multitasking means the JOAT can just go crazy N1 and do 3 things, which doesn't seem ideal. You could make the mailman multitasking with a second role that wouldn't look as suspicious to the rolecop, like voyeur or some other light investigative if you don't want to make all PR's multitasking.Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive, so nobody listens!- implosion
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Default multitasking was never explicitly re-normalized but I've been letting people do it (and it's fine since it's still required to be public setup knowledge in the OP) so feel free to.
The combined rolestopper X dilemma is one of those things that, well, is ambiguous like I described here. At least, IMO. I found Foxbird's review and the role was actually proposed by one of the reviewers and there's no mention of that dilemma in that review thread. I don't think there is any formalism in normal games between "using one action with two effects" and "using two actions targeting the same person". In this case the semantics of what's trying to be accomplished are clear but it's also clear that one "obvious" reading of it would have the role interfere with itself.
My default stance on things like this is that it's reviewer discretion, so I also feel that here. The fact that there is precedent means I personally am fine with it if they want to allow it but it's perhaps better to just avoid it for the sake of ambiguity. Ambiguity adds a lot of potential complexity if players start asking you how this role would work and you have to start answering in a way that would potentially imply that you'd thought about the implications, which might imply that the role is probably real, or what have you.- Something_Smart
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I don't like the normality of something being up to reviewer discretion. If your heart's set on it, you can keep it; otherwise, I'd rather replace it.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Something_Smart
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So this is where I stand on balance. I'd rather some of these investigative roles be less dependent on things outside their control.In post 12, Something_Smart wrote:As it is, it seems scumsided. The traffic analyst will be lucky to get one inno, as will the cop. The rest of the roles feel like mostly filler.It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!- Dwlee99
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I think scum might have too much ability to interfere with night actions so how about
Mafia Mailman
Mafia Combined Rolecop Voyeur
Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic
Town Novice Traffic Analyst
Town One-shot Simple Cop Neighbor
Town 1-shot Activated Bulletproof
Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborize, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblock)
Town Simple Jailkeeper
5x VT
Removing the activated ascetic also removes things that can mess with power roles.
I don't think mass claim breaks the game because the jailkeeper can't protect power roles and the mailman can probably claim mailman.I prefer they, thanks :) - Dwlee99
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