Dwlee99's Mini Normal Review, July 2021

[implosion]

Hi Implosion, I forgot to message you when I /in'd earlier for the mini normal queue. Sorry about that. Here's the info:

Suggested role list pre-review:

Setup notes: Mafia can multitask abilities and the factional kill. Any PTs will be always open.

Mafia Announcing Mailman
Mafia Combined Rolecop Rolestopper
Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic

Town Novice Traffic Analyst
Town One-shot Simple Cop Neighbor
Town One-shot Activated Combined Bulletproof Ascetic Neighbor
Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborize, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblock)
Town Simple Jailkeeper

5x VT

Review concerns in advance: Can the Rolecop Rolestopper exist by normal guidelines? That is, by NAR the rolecop action should occur after the rolestop, but I would like for it to occur before. Is this possible, or will it have to be reworked?

Role PMs:

Spoiler: Role PMs

Vanilla Townie

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote for who you think the bad guys are.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Town Novice Traffic Analyst

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Town Novice Traffic Analyst

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote for who you think the bad guys are.
  
• Each night after the first, you may PM me the name of a player. You will learn whether or not that player is able to privately communicate with another living player (you cannot distinguish between a player who is alone in a private topic, and a player who does not have private topic access at all). Wiki page for Traffic Analyst.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Town One-shot Simple Cop Neighbor

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Town One-shot Simple Cop Neighbor

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote for who you think the bad guys are.
  
• Once in the game at night, you may PM me the name of a player. You will learn whether that player wins with the town. (You will get "no result" if this action is blocked, or if your target is not vanilla). Wiki page for Cop.
  
• You also have access to a private topic here where you can communicate with Player B.

Wiki page for Neighbor.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Town One-shot Activated Combined Bulletproof Ascetic Neighbor

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Town One-shot Activated Combined Bulletproof Ascetic Neighbor

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote for who you think the bad guys are.
  
• Once in the game at night, you can PM me that you would like to activate your ability. That night, you will be bulletproof and ascetic.
  
• You also have access to a private topic here where you can communicate with Player B.

Wiki page for Neighbor.[/list]

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborizer, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblocker)

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborize, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblock)

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote for who you think the bad guys are.
  
• You have access to a private topic here
  
• Each night while you still have an ability left, you must target a player with one of your abilities.
  
• Once in the game at night, you may PM me the name of a player and that you would like to neighborize them. At the end of the night, this player will be added to your neighborhood. Wiki page for Neighborizer.
  
• Once in the game at night, you may PM me the name of a player and that you would like to rolecop them. You will learn that player's role (but not their alignment). (You will get "no result" if this action is blocked, or if your target is vanilla). Wiki page for Role Cop.
  
• Once in the game at night, you may PM me the name of a player and that you would like to roleblock them. That player's active abilities will be blocked that night, assuming there is more than one anti-town player remaining in the game. Wiki page for Roleblocker.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment. With your confirmation, you must also supply an ordered list of your abilities, and an ordered list of the players in the game. In the event you do not submit an action, your action will default to the first possible ability and the first alive player in your ordered lists.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Town Simple Jailkeeper

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Town Simple Jailkeeper

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote for who you think the bad guys are.
  
• Each night you may PM me the name of a player. Assuming that player is vanilla, you will simultaneously roleblock that player, and protect that player from any number of nightkills. Wiki page for Jailkeeper.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Mafia Announcing Mailman

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Mafia Announcing Mailman

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote.
  
• Each night, you may PM me the name of a player and a message to send to them. At the end of the night, the player will receive the message. In addition, the player will be informed they were targeted by a mailman. Wiki page for Mailman.

Factional Abilities

• You may talk to Player B and Player C at any time here.
  
• Each night, one member of the mafia may target a player and attempt to kill them. This can be done at the same time as any night actions members of the mafia have.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all members of the town are eliminated and there is at least one mafia player alive, or nothing can prevent the same from occurring.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Mafia Combined Rolecop Rolestopper

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Mafia Combined Rolecop Rolestopper

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote.
  
• Each night, you may PM me the name of a player. You will learn that player's role (but not their alignment). (You will get "no result" if this action is blocked). Wiki page for Role Cop. In addition, this player will be bulletproof and ascetic for the night. Wiki page for Rolestopper.

Factional Abilities

• You may talk to Player B and Player C at any time here.
  
• Each night, one member of the mafia may target a player and attempt to kill them. This can be done at the same time as any night actions members of the mafia have.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all members of the town are eliminated and there is at least one mafia player alive, or nothing can prevent the same from occurring.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote.
  
• You are also bulletproof and ascetic.

Factional Abilities

• You may talk to Player B and Player C at any time here.
  
• Each night, one member of the mafia may target a player and attempt to kill them. This can be done at the same time as any night actions members of the mafia have.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all members of the town are eliminated and there is at least one mafia player alive, or nothing can prevent the same from occurring.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Start Post:

Dank Meme Mafia: The Squeakquel

Current Game State:
Pregame

Public Game Knowledge:

The mafia are by default multitasking and any PTs are always open.

Rule list borrowed from TheStatusQuo with slight modifications.

The Basics

1. Day Phase: 10 days. Night Phase 2 days
   
2. 36 hours before prod, 24 hours before replacement.
   
3. I have some unusual rules, please pay special attention to rules 4 5 and 13 in the general rules section.
   
4. I have a "Don't play if you're not having fun" rule. Please avail yourself of it. There's no shame in requesting replacement if you're not enjoying yourself.
   
5. Respect everyone's basic humanity. Do not be an asshole to people. Don't be a racist or sexist or really any other -ist. Respect other players displayed pronouns.

General Rules

1. Have fun. This is not an option. Games are only good when players are having fun. If you are not having fun, replace out. There is no shame in this. I have no problem with it. You are not a bad person. Both you and the game will be happier for it.
   
2. The mod is always right. Always. Yes, even then. However, if you think there’s some confusion, and it absolutely can’t wait until the end of the game, send me a PM; do not break my game because you died when you didn’t think you should’ve.
   
3. Days will continue until one of two things happen: a player is killed or a deadline passes.
   
4. Please do not communicate with the mod in thread. Mod communication should not take place in the game thread. If I feel your question has an answer that the rest of the town needs to know about, I will make a game announcement. If you attempt to claim this is due to a question you asked I will count that as quoting mod communication.
   
5. Do not be toxic in my game. Being toxic is subjective and I am the final say on what that means.
   
6. Do NOT quote your role PMs, OR any other form of communication from me unless it is something I have already posted on this thread. This is a modkillable offense.
   
7. Do not discuss the game outside of the game thread unless your role allows you to, in which case you may only do it during the specified times and in the specified threads. This is a modkillable offense. You also may not quote, screenshot, etc. any communication that happens outside of the thread while the game is ongoing. Paraphrasing is okay.
   
8. You’re required to post regularly. I prod after 36 hours of inactivity and replace after 24 hours of no response to the prod. This can be flexible if you PM me in advance.
   
9. Once you’re dead, you’re no longer subject to the previous rule. As a matter of fact, once you’re dead, stop posting. I will permit one simple “bah” post and nothing more.
   
10. In the event of a modkill, it will end the day.
    
11. If a deadline passes without a player receiving the majority of the votes the day will end with no kill.
    
12. The days in this game will last 10 days.
    
13. If you don't get your choices in, your default action is NO ACTION.
    
14. I will be especially harsh on players who are prod dodging. I will count posts with little or no game contact, or a pattern of posts with little or no game content as a prod dodge and will replace you out of my game. I expect activity and I expect everyone to be playing. See rule 1 about replacing out if you are not having fun or do not have the time to play.

Sample VT Role PM:

Vanilla Town

Welcome, Player A! You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Individual Abilities

• Each day you may vote for who you think the bad guys are.

Your Win Condition

• You win the game when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one town player is alive.

Please confirm by responding to this PM stating your role and alignment.

The game thread can be found here.

Good luck, have fun.

Player List

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. 
   
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    
11. 
    
12. 
    

[/list]

Spoiler: Alive (13)

Spoiler: Dead

None yet!

[implosion]

Primary: Something_Smart
Secondary: ChaosOmega

(I may also add some comments since ChaosOmega hasn't reviewed in quite some time)

[Dwlee99]

Hey everyone. Thanks in advance for reviewing my setup!

I think the setup needs tuning for sure as at the moment I would guess it is scum sided, but I think I'll wait for y'all to give it a look.

[Something_Smart]

Review concerns in advance: Can the Rolecop Rolestopper exist by normal guidelines? That is, by NAR the rolecop action should occur after the rolestop, but I would like for it to occur before. Is this possible, or will it have to be reworked?

It doesn't seem possible to me. I'm pretty sure you can't violate NAR, and I haven't thought of a role combination that would make this possible. Though, if you want to make them decide between rolecopping a townie and rolestopping a partner, you could just do a Rolecop Rolestopper.

[Dwlee99]

The wiki page does say

For actions which combine two other actions use the first one listed.

[ChaosOmega]

Combined doesn't make it one action, it's two separate actions forced to target the same player. Agreed, don't believe that role will work correctly, the rolestop would block the rolecop.

[Dwlee99]

It looks like this this game viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195& shows that there is precedence for combined rolestops. Andres role this game was odd-night combined neighborizer rolestopper.

[ChaosOmega]

I do agree the setup seems scumsided. The JK can't RB any scum, although they can't block any town power which makes it a little better. The traffic analyst can get a couple different false positives and one false negative with the ascetic, 1-shot simple cop can't get any guilties, only a VT clear. Town complex rolecop and Mafia ascetic is an interesting interaction. Scum power isn't super high here, but rolecop is very useful with no tracking around to catch it. Will wait for Something_Smart's thoughts.

I can't see the review topic for that game, but the Wiki defines combined as "A Combined role necessarily performs all of its constituent actions on the single player it targets each night." The role can exist, but the rolestop will block the rolecop according to NAR since they are not the same action.

[Dwlee99]

Based on my reading of the game, the neighborizer would go through, which makes me think the neighborize goes before the rolestop because it is listed first in the role. Maybe implosion knows/could clarify?

[Something_Smart]

It looks like this this game viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86195& shows that there is precedence for combined rolestops. Andres role this game was odd-night combined neighborizer rolestopper.

That looks uh wrong.

@implosion?

[Something_Smart]

Is there a reason for mailman to be announcing?
Is there a reason for bulletproof ascetic rather than commuter?
Is there a reason the rolecop is complex?

(Not that there can't be for any of these, but long role names can be imposing to some people so all else being equal it would be best to shorten them.)

[Something_Smart]

Also, I don't think inherent multitasking is allowed anymore.

[Something_Smart]

As it is, it seems scumsided. The traffic analyst will be lucky to get one inno, as will the cop. The rest of the roles feel like mostly filler.

[Dwlee99]

Andresvmb has died ! They were ...

Spoiler: Andresvmb

Welcome to Mini Normal 2201, Andresvmb!

You are a

Town Odd-Night Combined Neighborizer Rolestopper

.

You have access to a private neighborhood HERE. You may talk in there during night phases only.

You have the following active ability:

Every odd-numbered Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will add this player to your neighborhood. In addition, the player you target will be immune to all other night actions.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

The game thread is HERE.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Day 2 starts now

The role pm for ease of access.

I'm also noticing I should probably word my role PMs a bit more carefully by adding "assuming no interference with your action."

Pedit: Mailman is announcing mainly because it was recommended on the wiki to make it clear that the message came from a mailman rather than a mod.

Commuter can't make the night kill while commuting.

Rolecop is complex because I want there to be ambiguity in if the action failed because roleblock/ascetic or from the modifier. IE, the ascetic goon can fake claim VT from the rolecop check. And the rolecop is already extremely strong if it targets the rolestopper role, which makes me think it is important to nerf it a bit.

[Something_Smart]

There's nothing wrong with filler roles, they can make the setup more interesting, but they generally don't change the power level much.

Also, both of the investigatives need to target specific kinds of townies to get an inno, in a way that's pretty hard to predict and therefore is pretty swingy.

[Something_Smart]

Commuter can't make the night kill while commuting.

The town role could still be commuter. And multitasking commuter can, right? Regardless the scum one could just be ascetic, there are no town killing roles.

[Dwlee99]

Bulletproof was to make a red herring for a vig in the setup.

I also was hoping I can make scum default multitasking cause seeing "multitasking mailman" (or similar) is equivalent to a cop guilty.

[Something_Smart]

Mailman is announcing mainly because it was recommended on the wiki to make it clear that the message came from a mailman rather than a mod.

I would rather you just make this clear when passing the message e.g. "You have received a message from another player: ..."

Complex is fine, it lets scum claim VT if the rolecop claims first.

[Something_Smart]

Bulletproof was to make a red herring for a vig in the setup.

I also was hoping I can make scum default multitasking cause seeing "multitasking mailman" (or similar) is equivalent to a cop guilty.

If you really want you can make all the PR's multitasking and make this public setup knowledge.

I mean that goes against the short role guideline but it's necessary to accomplish what you want.

[Dwlee99]

If I can't make scum default multitasking I guess I have to just go with that public knowledge thing. It does hint towards the possibility of a rolecop in a way that "scum can multitask the factional kill" doesn't because if there was no rolecop I could just put multitasking on the mafia without caring.

[ChaosOmega]

Making all PRs multitasking means the JOAT can just go crazy N1 and do 3 things, which doesn't seem ideal. You could make the mailman multitasking with a second role that wouldn't look as suspicious to the rolecop, like voyeur or some other light investigative if you don't want to make all PR's multitasking.

[implosion]

Default multitasking was never explicitly re-normalized but I've been letting people do it (and it's fine since it's still required to be public setup knowledge in the OP) so feel free to.

The combined rolestopper X dilemma is one of those things that, well, is ambiguous like I described here. At least, IMO. I found Foxbird's review and the role was actually proposed by one of the reviewers and there's no mention of that dilemma in that review thread. I don't think there is any formalism in normal games between "using one action with two effects" and "using two actions targeting the same person". In this case the semantics of what's trying to be accomplished are clear but it's also clear that one "obvious" reading of it would have the role interfere with itself.

My default stance on things like this is that it's reviewer discretion, so I also feel that here. The fact that there is precedent means I personally am fine with it if they want to allow it but it's perhaps better to just avoid it for the sake of ambiguity. Ambiguity adds a lot of potential complexity if players start asking you how this role would work and you have to start answering in a way that would potentially imply that you'd thought about the implications, which might imply that the role is probably real, or what have you.

[Something_Smart]

I don't like the normality of something being up to reviewer discretion. If your heart's set on it, you can keep it; otherwise, I'd rather replace it.

[Something_Smart]

As it is, it seems scumsided. The traffic analyst will be lucky to get one inno, as will the cop. The rest of the roles feel like mostly filler.

So this is where I stand on balance. I'd rather some of these investigative roles be less dependent on things outside their control.

[Dwlee99]

I think scum might have too much ability to interfere with night actions so how about

Mafia Mailman
Mafia Combined Rolecop Voyeur
Mafia Bulletproof Ascetic

Town Novice Traffic Analyst
Town One-shot Simple Cop Neighbor
Town 1-shot Activated Bulletproof
Town Compulsive JOAT (Neighborize, Complex Rolecop, Lazy Roleblock)
Town Simple Jailkeeper

5x VT

Removing the activated ascetic also removes things that can mess with power roles.

I don't think mass claim breaks the game because the jailkeeper can't protect power roles and the mailman can probably claim mailman.