Open Queue history

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Open Queue history

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:50 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I was planning to mod a game to fill the space in the open queue. I'm looking for popular 13-player setups to fill out the approved list, since it currently only has two but that has historically been the most popular open setup size. This led me down a bit of a rabbit hole researching how the popularity of setups has changed over time.

First, a quick chronology of the queue:
I joined the site in 2015. Even if I look back at games run before that, I can't really pretend to have a good handle on how things felt back then.
When I joined, the site was in the time I would call the "golden age of opens." (I don't know when it started; input from older users would be much appreciated.) During this time, the open queue seemed to be fairly popular, and there was a core of classic setups that were getting run all the time. It's hard to tell exactly when this ended, but I would guess around early 2018. It seemed like the queue slowed down, and classic setups got less popular as newly designed setups started getting run more.
At the start of 2019, the Open Setup Challenges began, and they remained pretty popular throughout the year before eventually dying out. I have considered reviving them, but I felt like they were pretty restricting and I would rather encourage people to design setups using elements they like than elements that other people like.
Since that has trailed off, the queue has become more and more dominated by micro games.

So, I gathered some data. All my collection started in 2016, since it's sorted by year and I didn't want to investigate back into times that I wasn't really familiar with.

Raw data (you can skip this part):
Spoiler: Setups run in the Open Queue, by year
White Flag 667781
Fire and Ice 666689
JK9++ 666701
Pick Your Poison 666788
Mexican Standoff 6
Masons and Mafia 670
C9++ 66667778891
Pick Your Power X/Y 667788000
Diffusion of Power 6667778
Jungle Republic 6677889
Near Vanilla 67
Sharing is Caring 68
Nightless Vengeful Mayhem 67
Friends and Enemies and Enemies 67
Carbon-14 6
Forest Fire 6901
Kill All Townies 67
Stack the Deck 66677888
Semi-Nightless 6
Donner Party 67890
Duck Duck Goose 67
Making Friends and Enemies 66778
Two-Fold Matrix6 67
Tit For Tat 667778
Friends and Enemies 67
Desperation Day 7
Greater Idea 7
Jungle Oligarchy 770
Watchmen Wanted 78
Lovers Mafia 70
Cosmopolitan 7
Vanilla Nightless 70
Switch 70
Polygamist 7
Masons and Monks 80
Elemental Large 8
Maintaining Law, Order, and Shallow Relationships 8
09:12 89
Noir 80
Red Flag 88
Purgatory 8800
Cul-De-Sac 8
Revenge of the Vengeful 8
Grey Flag Nightless 89
Twin Trap 81
Epic Duel 8
Paris Mafia 8
Hope Plus One 89
Lovers and Losers 81
Our Love Must Remain Hidden 9
Bus Service 90
Vengecop 9
Haunted Village 990
Nomination Mafia 99
Panic Room 91
Two-Fold C9++ 9
House Party 9
CK9++ 9
Alternating 9p 9
Venrob’s PYP X/Y 9
Monty Hall Mafia 9
Fusion Mafia 9
Pollock’s Flag 0
Hard Boiled 00
Korina is a Cultist 0
Secrets of the Anuket Topaz 0
Chromavalaon 0
Triad Conspiracy 0
We Need a Fourth 0
Crossfire 0
Two-Fold 2d3 0
CultD3 01
Trust Fall 001111
Chosen Mafia 0
Assassin in the Palace 0
Popcorn Mafia 11
Load the Deck 1
The Council 1
Charge Me Up! 1
Aliensitter Needed 1
Guardians of the Fortress 11
Noughts and Crosses 1
Nightless Exploder Pandemonium 111
Dayvig Deactivators 1
To Tell The Truth 1
Dead Silence 1
PYP X/Y HoS_S 1
The Coalition 1
Painters and Lies 1
Hanahaki Disease 1

Spoiler: Open setups run in the Blitz Queue, by year
Greatest Idea 6
Netherspite’s SORM 6
Fire and Ice 6
Great Idea 6
Maintaining Law, Order, and Shallow Relationships 6
Hope Plus One 6

Spoiler: Open setups run in the Micro Queue, by year
Kids With Guns 668801
Coordination Mafia 6
One Night Ultimate Werewolf 66
Space Invaders Mafia 6
Twin Peak Neighborhoods 6
Shortnight 6
Grand Idea 66778
High Risk High Reward 6
Greatest Idea 6788
Lovers Mafia 60
Longnight 6
Traitors Amongst Us 6
Reverse Mafia 67
Legends of the Hidden Temple 6
Jungle of Bullshit 67
Killer in the Penthouse 68
09:12 667901
Micellupan’s Temptation 6
To Love And To Be Loved 6
Rarefaction 6
Dem Tryouts 6666
Grey Flag Nightless 678
List of the Damned 6
The Arena 68
Mislead 66
Noughts and Crosses 66
Confirmed Guilties 6
Desperation Day 670
BIOLOGY 6
True Love 6901
Double Day Unlimited 67880
Great Idea 68
Forest Fire 689
Semi-Open Super Vanilla 6
Triplicate Mafia 6
Scumteam UnPick 67
Chosen Mafia 67
Nomination Mafia 6700
Less Pressure 60
Normal Idea Mafia 67
Matrix6 7799
Greater Idea 770
Scumhunter’s Speed 77
Matrix5 7
Vengeful Mafia Modified 7777
Backup6 7
VJK 7
Vengeful 770
Friendly Neighbor6 7
Marked for Death 779
Roleblocker6 7
Vengeful Lovers 7
C-C9 7
Miss List 78
Kirk’s Chinese Style 7
Nano-Multiball 7780
SCIENCE 7
The Hero We Deserve 7
Vanilla Nightless 7
Jester Nightless 88890
Twin Trap 8
Purgatory 81
SHENANIGANS 8
Lynchpin 888
Won’t You Be My Neighbor 88
Alternating 9p 8
Double Investigation 88
Sadomafiosochism 811
2 Mafia, 1 Vigilante, 6 Townies 8
The Coalition 88899001
Modern Trio 80
2 Mafia, 1 JK, 6 Townies 8
Truth and Justice 8
The Team Odds 89
8-ball 81
Assassin in the Palace 8
Pop Goes The Nightkill 8
Half Mast Nightless 8
Follow the Leader 9
Baby Too Much Scum 9
The One I Cannot Kill 99
Branching Mafia 9
Contagion in the Palace 9
Burden of Proficiency 99911
AMGWPPTTIOTSDED 9
Shirley, You Jest 9
Pick Your Partner 9
Star-Crossed 9
L*nch Happy 9
Chain of Command 9900
Liars and Millers 9
2d3 9
Vengeful 7p 99
CultD3 900
Death List 9
Think Twice 9
Cultist Recruiter 9
Reverse Jester Nightless 9
High Noon 90
Dayvig Deactivators 9
Autobattler Mafia 9
Brass & Shrapnel 001
Medical Mafia 0
Doggos Among Us 0
Hungarian Music 00
Ultimate Conspiracy 0
Permanent Marker 0
Blood on the Clocktower 0
Express Mafia 00
Mask of Monsters 0
2of4 0
Trust Fall 0
Your Nightmare 00
Would You Like To Be My Neighbor 01
The Last of the Red-Horned Dung Beetles 0
E7 0
We Need A Fifth 000111
Dr. Hideyoshi 0
The Council 0
What Is Trust 0
9p Dance 001
Names on the List 01
Are You My Partner? 0
Carbon-14 11
Secret Jesters 1
Divide and Conquer 11
Mafiascum RPG 1
The King’s New Robes 1
Dead Silence 11
To Tell The Truth 1
Would You Like To Be My Hydra 1
Elect the Puppet Master 1

Okay that last one took
way
longer than I thought it was gonna. Anyway. Figure a setup has some level of popularity if it was run at least three times, not all by the same person. Filtering these out and sorting by number of times run gives us (bold = approved setup):
C9++ 66667778891

Pick Your Power X/Y 667788000

The Coalition 888990011

09:12 66789901

Stack the Deck 66677888
Fire and Ice 6666689
Diffusion of Power 6667778
Jungle Republic 6677889
Forest Fire 6689901
Trust Fall 0001111
JK9++ 666701
White Flag 667781

Kids With Guns 668801
Pick Your Poison 666788
Nomination Mafia 679900

Tit For Tat 667778
Purgatory 888001
Grand Idea 66778
Grey Flag Nightless 67889
Donner Party 67890
Making Friends and Enemies 66778
Double Day Unlimited 67880
Jester Nightless 88890
Burden of Proficiency 99911
CultD3 90001
Lovers Mafia 6700

True Love 6901
Nano-Multiball 7780
Chain of Command 9900
Hope Plus One 689
Masons and Mafia 670
Carbon-14 611
Noughts and Crosses 661

Desperation Day 670
Chosen Mafia 670

Jungle Oligarchy 770
Vengeful 770

Marked for Death 779
Twin Trap 881

Sadomafiosochism 811
Haunted Village 990
Brass & Shrapnel 001


My original goal of doing this was to look for setups that dropped off in popularity around 2018. There are in fact several: Stack the Deck, Fire and Ice, Diffusion of Power, Jungle Republic, Pick Your Poison, Tit for Tat, and Making Friends and Enemies were all run a lot of times between 2016 and 2018 and not much afterward.

The main thing I'd like to figure out is, is it because the setups are bad, or is it because they got shoved out by the rise of new/creative setups in 2018 and 2019 and we could try to bring them back?
It would be great if I could get both:
  • Thoughts on these setups from newer users (ideally 2019+), and whether you would play them if people were to run them nowadays
  • Thoughts on these setups from older users who remember when they were popular, any insight into why people stopped running them, and whether you would want them to come back
(There's also some discussion to be had about the Approved Setups, some of which did not make it on this list at all and many of which only barely did. Trust Fall seems like a very clear addition and I will do that soon, but I may work on further additions/deletions informed by this list. Probably it's worth looking into the winrates of some of the more popular ones.)
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:09 am

Post by Jingle »

The time you looked at was specifically my absence from site, but I remember prior to that that F+I and Jungle Republic were both considered over run and were mostly run so often because they were a way for people to get the modding experience prior to being able to have predesigned normals/micros as your first setup. I'm not sure they'd be any more popular nowadays because people seem less interested in multiball, not more. I think all of the others would be reasonably well received though.
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:25 am

Post by Kerset »

I find them awful. I dislike mini games with mutiball and open games which are just normal. Stack the Deck and Pick Your Poison are ok.
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:47 pm

Post by the worst »

oh my i'm going to enjoy reading this. ego.
who's scum? i haven't read up yet but like, it's me
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:57 pm

Post by House »

I miss Greater Idea Mafia.

That was my favorite role madness setup back in the day.

I loved rolling Judas & claiming Saulus, getting town to eliminate me, and winning with scum. :lol:

(Not that I can ever do that again, now)
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:06 pm

Post by RH9 »

I would personally prefer a Micro or Mini. I would prefer a setup which is not Multiball and preferably a minimum of Non-Normal mechanics. However, I would like self-targeting to be an option, and a Trust Fall mechanic will also be fine. Nightless will be alright, as well. Third Parties are also all right. To be fair, I wouldn't want the setup to be focused on Alignment-Changing roles. I also want a minimum of Deceptive roles.
Last edited by RH9 on Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:08 pm

Post by House »

Days Are Dark and Nights Are Long was an amazing game that should be rolled again, sometime.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:41 pm

Post by Jingle »

This might just be my opinion, but I think marked for death, burden of proficiency, and divide and conquer have all been shown to be balanced and popular enough to be worth approving. I think I’m the only one who ran burden of proficiency as the original setup, but it was also run as a secret alt variant a few times recently.

WRT the open design challenges, we could easily explore making them again with flavor criteria instead of mechanical criteria if there’s a goal to bolster game design at the moment.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:45 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 4, House wrote:I miss Greater Idea Mafia.

That was my favorite role madness setup back in the day.

I loved rolling Judas & claiming Saulus, getting town to eliminate me, and winning with scum. :lol:

(Not that I can ever do that again, now)
If you ego search temporallich there’s a bunch of idea style collaborative decks you might want to look into.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:48 pm

Post by House »

In post 8, Jingle wrote:
In post 4, House wrote:I miss Greater Idea Mafia.

That was my favorite role madness setup back in the day.

I loved rolling Judas & claiming Saulus, getting town to eliminate me, and winning with scum. :lol:

(Not that I can ever do that again, now)
If you ego search temporallich there’s a bunch of idea style collaborative decks you might want to look into.
I mean, yeah, but it is Greater Idea mechanics specifically that I personally enjoyed.

The role selection & process was a blast.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:29 am

Post by Isis »

I don't know if I've ever played any of the old school setups. I hypothesize that players lose interest in multiball as they gain veterancy. Mason opens are quasi multiball sometimes and there's that too.
Diffusion of power looks worth playing. Tit for tat seems like something most people would like. Stack the deck has known issues that tbone was trying to fix.

Pyp is maybe just a fine setup. (Poison not power). I suspect it's not exciting to -mod- because of the way the players decide the setup. I myself wouldn't want to play a setup like pyp (cause I want to play nightless vanilla over and over again blah blah)
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:50 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

PYPoison has a pretty rote set of PR picks imo
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Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Oct 23, 2021 1:51 pm

Post by RH9 »

Making Friends and Enemies seems interesting. I would want to try it out. (Though, I'll be on Limited Access from 25 October 2021 to 17 December 2021 and, for full disclosure, I'm planning to play the first game after my Limited Access period ends on RH.)
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Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:48 am

Post by Dunnstral »

Stack the deck and pick your poison were fun. Stack the deck is an inherintly flawed setup, though, in that it's definitely best to not pick any powers.

Fire and Ice is not fun.
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Post Post #14 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:20 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 9, House wrote:I mean, yeah, but it is Greater Idea mechanics specifically that I personally enjoyed.
The reason I brought it up is that the collab decks are run using GIdea card picking. They’re a nuttier set of roles, but if you don’t mind the additional swing they might be fun for you.
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Post Post #15 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:22 am

Post by Jingle »

Did anyone ever run Tbone’s fixed stack the deck proposal? I remember it being kicked around for last Team Mafia but I don’t think I’ve seen it get played.
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Post Post #16 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:30 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 10, Isis wrote:I don't know if I've ever played any of the old school setups. I hypothesize that players lose interest in multiball as they gain veterancy. Mason opens are quasi multiball sometimes and there's that too.
My theory on multi ball is that there are wildly different schools of thought on balance (50/25/25 or 33/33/33? Should Crosskilling be considered as a tow siding mechanic?) and because of that what may seem balanced to one person seems incredibly unbalanced to another, leading to a negative feedback loop. My logic is that people don’t seem to mind it as much in games like the idea games or mastina’s “hilariously unbalanced” setups where balance is explicitly secondary to fun. Either way, a bunch of multi ball opens doesn’t seem likely to be popular, although one or two as options is probably prudent.
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Post Post #17 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:27 am

Post by Isis »

I think closed game and multiball game night have some peanut butter and jelly action goin tbh
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Post Post #18 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:41 am

Post by Something_Smart »

In post 15, Jingle wrote:Did anyone ever run Tbone’s fixed stack the deck proposal? I remember it being kicked around for last Team Mafia but I don’t think I’ve seen it get played.
Yes. It was a disaster because the setup was not properly specified. (The traitor was erroneously given a bulletproof role PM but was not actually bulletproof and was never informed of that, and it was not listed anywhere that the traitor would take over the nightkill if the main faction died.) This was one of the reasons I implemented the rule that all the role PM's for a game have to be written somewhere.

I almost chose Load the Deck to run again, but I felt like it didn't really fix all of the issues with the original setup-- scum communication is very limited, and the traitor taking over the nightkill if the main faction dies is incredibly dumb. Replacing the "recruit traitor" option with a recruiter seems like a clear step in the wrong direction.
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Post Post #19 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:04 am

Post by Something_Smart »

I initially avoided giving my personal thoughts to not bias people, but I think I can share them now, especially since I was very active during this time and played in some of these setups.

I don't like multiball, but as far as multiball goes, I think the Fire and Ice mechanic is especially bad, because it introduces even more WIFOM than the setup already has. Jungle Republic I never played, but it feels fairly benign as far as multiball goes, because only one group can kill so crosskills are limited. It also has built-in rules to limit kingmaking. But, it has such a massive proportion of scum that town may feel they are lacking agency, even moreso than a different multiball setup. I realize that these setups were often only run to get experience, but they did fill a lot, so they were unambiguously popular. But multiball as a whole has gotten a lot less popular sitewide, so I'm not really shedding any tears over them.

Stack the Deck is a setup with a very interesting concept but a flawed execution. T-Bone's Load the Deck was a good attempt, but I don't feel it fixes all the issues. I may try again to make a version that satisfies me.

Tit for Tat feels specially designed for massive swing. But, if people like that, it can still be fun.

The other three (Pick Your Poison, Making Friends and Enemies, and Diffusion of Power) I like a lot, I think they are good setups and it's a shame they fell off in popularity. I would like to see all three of them run; Pick Your Poison seemed to get the most support here, so I will run it first.

Thanks everyone who gave feedback. (This is not to say that I'm no longer looking for it-- if you found this thread and want to weigh in, please do!)
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #20 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:30 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

Stack the Deck: I like this one, would like to see it get properly fixed up
Fire and Ice: agree that it’s pretty mediocre, but I like the concept and think Cop Killer might be a better implementation of the idea behind it.
Jungle Republic: on record as my least favorite open setup, I don’t like how it feels like one scumteam has way more influence than the other.
Tit for Tat: nothing special, I think the setup is fine but a variation might make it more fun maybe
Pick Your Poison: JK and Tracker have way less incentive to be picked over the other town PRs. I think a solid idea to rectify that would be to give the scumteam an Ascetic modifier they can each assign to one team member during the town PR selection phase. This helps to mitigate the effectiveness of JK, and somewhat mitigate the tracker, though with the exception of a lucky break it wouldn’t stop the Tracker from eventually catching the scum Ascetic (but the main situation it would be meant to counter is a last-scum-standing situation, which it probably does just fine)
Making Friends and Enemies: idk why this one fell out of favor, there’s enough Friends and Enemies clones in the normal queue throughout time that imo this variant should actually be pretty popular?
Diffusion of Power: perfectly fine setup, feels optimizable for town but it’s still a fine setup to roll scum in.
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Post Post #21 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:52 am

Post by T-Bone »

In post 15, Jingle wrote:Did anyone ever run Tbone’s fixed stack the deck proposal? I remember it being kicked around for last Team Mafia but I don’t think I’ve seen it get played.
It was ran once, and then I needed to make some changes, which I did. I think I need to like condense the updates to fix the issues, which I will. I was planning on queuing it soon.
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Post Post #22 (ISO) » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:12 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Cool. I won't step on your toes, then; we can see how this version plays out when it's actually run right.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
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Post Post #23 (ISO) » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:53 am

Post by Isis »

The really good thing about tit for tat is that the potential "downside" is on full display. It kind of delivers on "something you can't do in a closed setup" in a weird way. Forewarning your players that a closed setup is highly swinging would make VT claims dubious (unless it's a wild theme game, which is also a different genre from tit for tat)

I guess it's possible it has other issues to. But I wonder if with opens maybe it is good to remember that the hidden disadvantages of open setups (like the triple joat possibility in haunted village) is different from the openly stated ones, like nightless vanilla's lack of roles or knowing if I roll nightflag I might not get to bus, etc
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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Post Post #24 (ISO) » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:56 am

Post by Isis »

an evil imp whispers me that murdercats card game stuff is like the gleaming future of mafia and if people put the elbow grease in developing that it would one day supplant 60% of normals and 60% of opens or 80/60
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
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