Updates to Bastard Tags

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #25 (ISO) » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:36 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 21, chamber wrote:As a mod, can't you already communicate more if you want to?
It seems like this would be more about how much information players can expect from all mods.
Like you can already just post some version of that paragraph stating your goals during sign ups for your games right?
This, 100%, is my aim.

I’ve long been a proponent of setting up reasonable expectations for what your players can expect. I absolutely don’t want to get rid of the description blurb potential at the end of the questionnaire. I do think that mods don’t do that as often as they could and players don’t read that as often as they should, which is why I think the flag system is valuable in the first place.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #26 (ISO) » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:39 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 23, Thestatusquo wrote:I think its basically that the toggle currently asks like 3 different questions at once, all of which create wildly different dynamics. So why not just ask 3 different questions?
Also, this.

I think a lot of people see a toggle hit and go “Oh, it’s gonna be one of those games.” then just skip it. I think a clearer system could reduce that.

I am of course operating based on impressions and have nothing to base these beliefs on.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #27 (ISO) » Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:58 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

Currently there is no enforced difference between a game that has an unusual mechanic that ought to be demarcated as bastard (ie a super janitor that removes someone's post history from the game) and a game where the mod tells you you're town but you're secretly mafia and your win condition is for two of the other players in the game to both get permabanned before the end of the game and that's a problem
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
Cook
Cook
She
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Cook
She
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2961
Joined: December 5, 2020
Pronoun: She
Location: Stapling Internet Together [89.9%]
Contact:

Post Post #28 (ISO) » Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:00 am

Post by Cook »

In post 27, RadiantCowbells wrote:Currently there is no enforced difference between a game that has an unusual mechanic that ought to be demarcated as bastard (ie a super janitor that removes someone's post history from the game) and a game where the mod tells you you're town but you're secretly mafia and your win condition is for two of the other players in the game to both get permabanned before the end of the game and that's a problem
well now that you mention it...
Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //
"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae

Inventor of 3d20 //
Successful Rebellion Leader//
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #29 (ISO) » Fri Mar 04, 2022 8:29 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

Reviving this because there's been quite a controversy in the Mafia Rule Updates Discussion Thread around divulged non-randomness being declared bastard via new mafia moderator rules.

Should divulged non-randomness be considered bastard? I would assume no or at least have it be its own tag.

Divulged non-randomness is any form of nonrandom or semi-random methods of role and alignment assignment as long as it is known in signups and to setup reviewers. A uPick that explicitly advertises itself as a uPick is divulged non-randomness.

The relevant new rule: 16. Game moderators may not use nonrandom methods of role and alignment assignment at the start of the game. The use of nonrandom methods
must be indicated by declaring a game as bastard when queueing the game
and must be included in the setup review.

Imo, I don't think uPicks are inherently bastard on the same level that mod influence is.
time will end
User avatar
Nancy Drew 39
Nancy Drew 39
She/Her
Not that Inno Scent
User avatar
User avatar
Nancy Drew 39
She/Her
Not that Inno Scent
Not that Inno Scent
Posts: 14979
Joined: January 14, 2018
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: HYDRAs 4EVA!!!
Contact:

Post Post #30 (ISO) » Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:41 am

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

ego
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #31 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 7:38 am

Post by Jingle »

FWIW within the framework of my suggestions I think Nonrandom role assignment would either fall under the flag of mutation (divulged) or the flag of direct mod influence (bastardry) (nondivulged). I don’t particularly think removing the distinction between disclosed non randomness and non disclosed non randomness is a positive move as it is a disclosure of something that was already being disclosed. I don’t really think it’s a damaging move either, just one that won’t really have any effect overall.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Cook
Cook
She
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Cook
She
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2961
Joined: December 5, 2020
Pronoun: She
Location: Stapling Internet Together [89.9%]
Contact:

Post Post #32 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:31 am

Post by Cook »

according to my bastard tags it only trips the Rules tag
Your friendly neighborhood chef and baker. LONG LIVE THE CHEFHAT REBELLION!
Cults With Guns //
"ya true if you don't play mafia you are probably winning" – Alisae

Inventor of 3d20 //
Successful Rebellion Leader//
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #33 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:22 am

Post by TemporalLich »

If you're in a uPick you're agreeing to play a game in which the moderator derives role from flavor. It is the logical extreme of "flavor matters".

Direct mod influence could mean the mod has an agenda or wants a specific user to win, it also covers the area of "modkilling players for fun".
time will end
User avatar
Morning Tweet
Morning Tweet
She
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
User avatar
User avatar
Morning Tweet
She
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
Posts: 10586
Joined: September 5, 2016
Pronoun: She

Post Post #34 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:37 am

Post by Morning Tweet »

If 1 scum gets to pick other members of their team pregame, and this is known publicly in signups and game start, is that considered bastard currently?
User avatar
Something_Smart
Something_Smart
He/him
Somewhat_Balanced
User avatar
User avatar
Something_Smart
He/him
Somewhat_Balanced
Somewhat_Balanced
Posts: 23122
Joined: November 17, 2015
Pronoun: He/him
Location: Upstate New York

Post Post #35 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 10:50 am

Post by Something_Smart »

My understanding is that it doesn't really matter if or how the "bastard" tag applies to publicly known mechanics-- for instance, if a game includes a cult and this is known, you don't have to say "this is bastard", you can just say "this has a cult" and everyone will get the correct message.

I feel like it's kinda splitting hairs to ask these types of questions. If your game has one scum draft their partners pregame, then the proper answer to "is it bastard?" is not "yes" or "no", it's "one scum can draft their partners in pregame." Since it's public info anyway, people should get it up-front so they can best decide whether they want to join.

I'm not the one in charge of this, since players in my queue always know exactly what they're getting anyway, so this is just my $0.02 on the matter.
It's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die. You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken. How many lives shattered. How much blood will spill, until everybody does what they're always going to have to do from the very beginning... SIT DOWN AND TALK!
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #36 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:10 am

Post by TemporalLich »

If you're not able to tell if the uPick you want to join may have direct mod influence or not, there are serious problems with how Bastard is being defined nowadays.

Direct mod influence is considered the worst of the worst when it comes to Bastard, equating uPicks with it is like equating beer to Everclear
time will end
User avatar
Morning Tweet
Morning Tweet
She
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
User avatar
User avatar
Morning Tweet
She
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
Team Mafia Winner
Posts: 10586
Joined: September 5, 2016
Pronoun: She

Post Post #37 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:32 am

Post by Morning Tweet »

In post 35, Something_Smart wrote:My understanding is that it doesn't really matter if or how the "bastard" tag applies to publicly known mechanics-- for instance, if a game includes a cult and this is known, you don't have to say "this is bastard", you can just say "this has a cult" and everyone will get the correct message.

I feel like it's kinda splitting hairs to ask these types of questions. If your game has one scum draft their partners pregame, then the proper answer to "is it bastard?" is not "yes" or "no", it's "one scum can draft their partners in pregame." Since it's public info anyway, people should get it up-front so they can best decide whether they want to join.

I'm not the one in charge of this, since players in my queue always know exactly what they're getting anyway, so this is just my $0.02 on the matter.
Well this is something that matters to me since I do have to declare the game as "Entirely bastard" for one small thing

This is especially a problem in closed setups -- does the moderator acting as an NPC (but not revealed as the mod) count as "Direct mod influence"?

I decided yes so I had to declare the game as bastard -- which just feels like an outdated system, maybe moderators used to torture players with false sanities and lying and alignment changes and they weren't announcing at signups.
User avatar
Nancy Drew 39
Nancy Drew 39
She/Her
Not that Inno Scent
User avatar
User avatar
Nancy Drew 39
She/Her
Not that Inno Scent
Not that Inno Scent
Posts: 14979
Joined: January 14, 2018
Pronoun: She/Her
Location: HYDRAs 4EVA!!!
Contact:

Post Post #38 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 1:39 pm

Post by Nancy Drew 39 »

I agree with this. When people got blindsided in BTDT uPick by previously unmentioned midgame allignment changes changes, they rightfully felt duped by the game mod.

So, versus games involve scum drafting their team. Upicks, self-explanatory. I would hate to see either of these things confused with either possible midgame allignment changes or especially mod lies.

Just label such games as maybe irregular and not bastard?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
~Taly
***
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #39 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:43 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 36, TemporalLich wrote:If you're not able to tell if the uPick you want to join may have direct mod influence or not, there are serious problems with how Bastard is being defined nowadays.

Direct mod influence is considered the worst of the worst when it comes to Bastard, equating uPicks with it is like equating beer to Everclear
Upicks by definition have direct moderator influence on the game, just like GI mod discretion roles. Whether said influence is benevolent (in favor of a good game) or selfish (in favor of the mod's desires) is a function of whether the mod is shitty at their job, but by definition designing roles for people after you know who they are IS direct mod influence.
Last edited by Jingle on Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #40 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 5:45 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 37, Morning Tweet wrote:I decided yes so I had to declare the game as bastard -- which just feels like an outdated system, maybe moderators used to torture players with false sanities and lying and alignment changes and they weren't announcing at signups.
Addressing this is pretty much the reason for this thread in the first place, tbh.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #41 (ISO) » Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:59 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

In post 39, Jingle wrote:
In post 36, TemporalLich wrote:If you're not able to tell if the uPick you want to join may have direct mod influence or not, there are serious problems with how Bastard is being defined nowadays.

Direct mod influence is considered the worst of the worst when it comes to Bastard, equating uPicks with it is like equating beer to Everclear
Upicks by definition have direct moderator influence on the game, just like GI mod discretion roles. Whether said influence is benevolent (in favor of a good game) or selfish (in favor of the mod's desires) is a function of whether the mod is shitty at their job, but by definition designing roles for people after you know who they are IS direct mod influence.
They are mod influence technically, but it's nowhere near the same caliber of bastardy as modkilling for fun, the mod having a vigilante shot for some reason, the mod surreptitiously altering night action submissions, the mod playing the game, or the mod giving unwanted advice.

I don't want the two conflated as people do enjoy uPicks and mid-game moderator influence is usually considered heretical.
time will end
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #42 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 8:24 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 41, TemporalLich wrote:They are mod influence technically, but it's nowhere near the same caliber of bastardy as modkilling for fun, the mod having a vigilante shot for some reason, the mod surreptitiously altering night action submissions, the mod playing the game, or the mod giving
unwanted
advice.
Also, the mod fudging the rand because "RC is good at scum and I want a more balanced lobby" or "Mastina really likes playing as a mason and this flavor she submitted works well as a mason so that's a good fit" or "Nancy doesn't like playing scum, so I should use this mod discretion role to give her town". These are all inherently terrible for the game. It's not impossible to have a fun game utilizing say, the ability for the mod to edit posts for the benefit of the mafia (see: The Mod is Mafia) but all of those options are 100% bastard and in a situation where they are not explicitly allowed they are all horrible breaches of power that should rightfully result in a mod ban.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #43 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 9:12 am

Post by TemporalLich »

The point I am trying to make is that I wouldn't want to play a game billed as a uPick and end up playing "mid game moderator influence underworld".
time will end
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #44 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:16 am

Post by Jingle »

I think I made it clear that I don't particularly think , but I felt given your specific exclusion of wanted moderator advice (which is baffling to me) from your list of bastardry deserved the quote fix and that examples of things that might sound reasonable but definitely aren't and should not be considered as such could be valuable.

We pretty clearly agree that the definitions of bastardry are insufficient though, given the thread existing in the first place.
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #45 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 11:04 am

Post by TemporalLich »

Wanted moderator advice would actually be very bad for the game as well. Especially something like a mod answering "who should I target". It belongs on the same caliber of unwanted moderator advice as they are both mid game direct moderator influence. Not considering wanted moderator advice was an oversight on my part.

Yeah, bastardy does have a few holes in it, and I particularly am against angleshooting it (e.g. Death Miller in no reveal game).

My controversial opinion is that things can be "strategically bastard" such as RNG, known holes in information that should be known (e.g. Mysterious Conduit), action redirection, arbitrary results interference such as Framer, divulged non-randomness.

I'd consider lying about who you targeted "mechanically bastard" (e.g. a Redirector that lets affected Cops believe they targeted who they attempted to target)
time will end
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #46 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 2:39 pm

Post by Jingle »

I would say that lying about who someone targeted would be explicitly bastard, but formatting results PMs to not confirm targets is explicitly not.

So "TemporalLich is town" when you were redirected and "Your target was town" are inherently different statements, the former giving more information than the latter. Which you use is always a balance issue that should be addressed in the review of a game.

My loose definition of "Bastard" as it is is: Anything that causes moderator influence in the game post randomization, anything that changes the wincondition of a player during the game, anything that directly contradicts information that should be inherently reliable (Role PMs, Moderator Communications, VC's, etc.), and anything that meaningfully changes the core mechanics of the game (flips, eliminations, standard winconditions, communication restrictions, standard phases). All of these are things that should at the very least come with a warning before anyone signs up for the game.

I think breaking that into it's separate parts and adding a category of "This game might be designed to require more mechanical deduction than the general game" to indicate things like godfather/redirector/bus driver/lightning rod/excessive use of red herrings, etc. is a positive step for setup clarity, which was my whole goal here to start with. Tricking someone into playing a game they didn't really want to play isn't going to make them or anyone in the game happy. It's just going to make them not want to play the game and kill the momentum for everyone, leading to poor quality games.

On the topic of moderator influence: If the answer to the question you're asked could not have been provided before any player signed up for the game you shouldn't be answering the question. (Slight caveat: I would consider clarifying a role to be something that falls under the acceptable answer provided you could have answered that question prior to anyone signing up for the game specifically for the person in that player slot. A cop asking how their results PM is formatted would be answerable, for example, but a non cop asking how a cop's results PM would be formatted would not.)
This is a Parachute.
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #47 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:38 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

I don't consider Godfather to be arbitrary results interference as results are only interfered concerning the Godfather. It isn't Normal, but it isn't strategically bastard.

Investigatives not being self-aware of their targets is something I consider strategically bastard as that basically makes every redirection role also an arbitrary results interference role.

Strategically bastard games can make bad strategies winning ones, however strategically bastard likely won't have a toggle as it's nebulous and idk the demand for Themes that are specifically not strategically bastard.

Strategically bastard usually isn't considered bastard.

There is zero overlap between strategically bastard and Normal. Nothing Normal is strategically bastard, and if there is, something needs to be done about it.

Things that probably are strategically bastard:

Arbitrary results interference (roles like Framer, Jammer, and Psychotrooper that can alter results not concerning that player.)
Action redirection (even if investigatives are self-aware of their actual targets, this still can cause massive WIFOM)
Random resolution / RNG (having to rely on luck isn't a good strategy)
Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality eliminations (such as Governor, Kingmaker, or Diplomat)
Divulged non-randomness (if a game is a uPick for example, it is strategically bastard)
Known holes in information that should be known (Janitor and Mysterious Conduit are examples)
Heavy "Flavor Matters" (you need to know the flavor to play well type deals)
Roles/Mechanics that punish normally good play (the heart of strategic bastardy imo. This includes stuff like Jester, Beloved Princess, and Super Saint)

Mechanically bastard is when the game starts to not be trustworthy. Forget not trusting "playing Mafia like you normally would", a mechanically bastard game will make you not trust even the frame work of the game. Mechanically bastard also includes mechanics that are widely considered to be unfair to the players. A sure sign of a game being mechanically bastard is when you start to doubt the moderator's trustworthiness or fairness.

The only thing you can trust in a mechanically bastard game is that the moderator follows their script, so to speak.

Things that probably are mechanically bastard:

Mid-game alignment changes (Cults for example)
Moderator dishonesty (Non-Reliable anything, Death Miller, false Role PMs, false setup info, you name it)
Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of posting (post restrictions, lie detectors, and "posting matters" roles)
Secret win conditions (even if it's a known hole in information, the wincon is needed to play properly)
Game-ending otherwise benign 3Ps (losing because of a Jester is bad, and it counts as a secret win con to not let the Jester get eliminated)

Fundamentally bastard is when the moderator crosses the red line. The moderator is no longer a neutral arbiter and facilitator of the game, but now has their hands in the game. Never trust anything in a fundamentally bastard game.

A fundamentally bastard game takes the basic expectation of trust and smashes it with a hammer. Fundamentally bastard games are ruled entirely by a moderator's whims.

Things that are fundamentally bastard:

Direct mod influence (this is when the moderator exerts undue influence on the game. Stuff like giving players advice, fudging night action resolution, the mod acting as a player, the mod giving info that shouldn't be given out, the mod abusing moderator tools, etc.)
Undivulged non-randomness (is equivalent to direct mod influence)
Ways to discuss the game outside its threads (violates the basic expectation that you aren't allowed to discuss ongoing games)
Adding players midgame (if mod picks players, this is equivalent to direct mod influence)
Non-players directly influencing the game (violates the basic expectation that people are not to affect games they aren't in)
time will end
User avatar
TemporalLich
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
User avatar
User avatar
TemporalLich
Grand Scheme
Grand Scheme
Posts: 5780
Joined: January 30, 2019
Location: A Lost Timeline

Post Post #48 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 3:43 pm

Post by TemporalLich »

tl;dr

strategically bastard is when the meta isn't to be trusted
mechanically bastard is when the game isn't to be trusted
fundamentally bastard is when the moderator isn't to be trusted
time will end
User avatar
Jingle
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
User avatar
User avatar
Jingle
For Whom the Bell Trolls
For Whom the Bell Trolls
Posts: 15120
Joined: July 17, 2013
Location: Texas

Post Post #49 (ISO) » Sat Mar 12, 2022 4:13 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 47, TemporalLich wrote:Strategically bastard games can make bad strategies winning ones, however strategically bastard likely won't have a toggle as it's nebulous and idk the demand for Themes that are specifically not strategically bastard.
I dislike this definition immensely, FWIW.

Watcher is a completely reasonable role, for example, that punishes scum for making a nk on a strong, widely townread player, which I'd assume basically everyone would agree would be considered solid play. FTC is an interaction where what is normally bad play (a cop claiming early) is instead rewarded. Neither of these are anywhere near bastard imo, or even nonnormal. Even ignoring these cases and ones like it, 'bad strategies' is such a nebulous concept that it's incredibly difficult to nail down, as you admit. Is slayer's gambit a bad strategy? Is faking a guilty a bad strategy? Is active lurking a bad strategy? Is page 1 lolhammering a bad strategy? Is hipfiring a dayvig a bad strategy? Is D1 massclaim a bad strategy? I certainly have opinions on all of these, but none of them are objectively facts.

And for what it's worth, I think most of what you're describing as strategic bastardry falls under my label of "requiring more mechanical thought than a general game". Should I as a cop have a reason to doubt that my cop result is actually an inno/guilty? Should I as a tracker assume I saw the NK? Should I as a neighbor assume that there isn't a way for someone in the thread to access the neighborhood later or that there isn't someone with access that I'm simply unaware of? These are the kinds of considerations that don't happen in every game, but definitely have their place in some games. (Hell, I prefer games where you can't rule out weird roles like PT spies or redirectors, because they make mechanical solving less reliable and unfun.)
This is a Parachute.
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”