MafiaScum Whirling School

[Ythan]

I've been rereading the 36 Lessons of Vivec and I am going to discuss them here. Please join in whether you know what that is or not.

[Ythan]

To begin, at the top of Sermon 1 it is said that he was born in the ash among the Velothi, anon (later) Chimer, before the war with the northern men. Conversely I generally see his people referred to as the Chimer as far back as the prophecies of Veloth or the eating of Trinimac. The prophecies certainly still precede them being called the Velothi: does this imply they reached Vvardenfell before Trinimac was eaten? Or is he referring to what we might call the Chimer as the Velothi and the Dunmer as the Chimer?

[Ythan]

The conventional translation of Chimer is Northern Elves but if you consider the alternate meaning of Changed Elves they were changed both by initially following Veloth and again, probably more apparently, after the Battle of Red Mountain. I don't generally see contemporary Dunmer called Chimer though.

[Ythan]

Oh yeah and they were already northern by the time they're in the ash so it must mean changed?

[Ythan]

does this imply they reached Vvardenfell before Trinimac was eaten?

I'm pretty sure this isn't it as I don't think there's any reference to Boethiah eating Trinimac contemporarily in the lessons but I'll be on the lookout now for it just in case.

[Ythan]

What does it mean that "things unknown and known would fold themselves around [Ayem] until they were like stars or the messages of stars"? The things unknown and known folding themselves around her is straightforward given "her shadow was that of Boethiah, who was the Prince of Plots", but what does the bit about stars mean?

[Ythan]

Stars seems to imply the Magna Ge, but in what sense could that be? And what would the messages of the Magna Ge be? Escape the Aurbis? Magic? Constellations?

[Ythan]

Escape the Aurbis?

Escape the Aurbis in the manner of the Magna Ge seems on theme for Boethiah.

[Ythan]

Stars seems to imply the Magna Ge, but in what sense could that be? And what would the messages of the Magna Ge be? Escape the Aurbis? Magic? Constellations?

This might actually all postdate Morrowind and the lessons, I can't find a reference to the stars as escaping the Aurbis before Oblivion.

[Ythan]

At the time of publication of this work stars had previously been referenced as the blood of Anu and also sometimes in Yokudan lore, I think the former is likely but not certain to be more relevant. No mention of escape by stars at this point, only Magnus and the connection between Magnus and the stars is not yet established I think.

[Ythan]

If things fold themselves around her until they are like the blood of Anu or messages of the same that would indicate stasis and I'm not sure what else at this point in the development of the lore. Seems tenuous. She is associated with stability I guess. If they fold until they are like the signs placed by Ruptga or messages thereof then that suggests direction to the far shores or their equivalent. Idk if any of this is meaningful or the stars are just a stylistic flourish associated with Ayem.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

To begin, at the top of Sermon 1 it is said that he was born in the ash among the Velothi, anon (later) Chimer, before the war with the northern men. Conversely I generally see his people referred to as the Chimer as far back as the prophecies of Veloth or the eating of Trinimac. The prophecies certainly still precede them being called the Velothi: does this imply they reached Vvardenfell before Trinimac was eaten? Or is he referring to what we might call the Chimer as the Velothi and the Dunmer as the Chimer?

My understanding of this is that the Velothi were called that historically (e.g. followers of Veloth), and the term Chimer was a foreign invention applied to them after the fact by historians. In other words, you could read it as "Velothi, what you know as Chimer". The distinction is useful to make because the archaic term Velothi had been repurposed later to refer to Ashlanders -- certainly the House system was entrenched by the time of Nerevar, and so it is likely the term Velothi had already begun to mean Ashlander by the time of mortal, pre-Heartwight Vivec's birth. Vivec is basically saying "Look how old I am!"

[Ythan]

Welcome!

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Thanks. I take the Sermons VERY seriously and did a lot of reading and research when I originally did a serious deep dive on them. There's a lot of basically Vehkian braggadocio, and it's important to recognize when something makes less sense than it should because it's about a Deep Truth (e.g. Sharmat, Amaranth, the Walking Ways) and when it makes less sense than it should because it makes Vehk look sexy and powerful oh wow. (If it involves Muatra, age or omniscience, it's probably the latter.)

[MUSHSHAGANA]

What does it mean that "things unknown and known would fold themselves around [Ayem] until they were like stars or the messages of stars"? The things unknown and known folding themselves around her is straightforward given "her shadow was that of Boethiah, who was the Prince of Plots", but what does the bit about stars mean?

This is a case, on the other hand, of neither. This is culture-bound poetic license.

The Dunmeri association of the symbol of a star is with mystery, a mixing of things, etc. by way of association with Azura (see Azura's Star, Nerevar Moon-and-Star). Similarly, and for similar reasons, it has association with rulership, heavenly splendor, and wealth. Finally, it's part of the four associations mentioned in Sermon 11: Ayem's stars, Seht's sea, Vehk's middle air, and Lord Nerevar's earth. Those associations DO have occult resonance, both classically (e.g. out-of-universe) and by way of the Enantiomorph on two levels (the usual trio, plus specific reference to the fate of Lorkhan, see the Vile Murder art).

[Ythan]

It's nice to have someone else's thoughts to chew on in real time and I've been chewing on yours.

[Ythan]

I think it may relate to Ayem leaning into and buying into her role as a more conventional god as discussed by Seht in Tribunal.

[Ythan]

Idk though stars and aedra are distinctly different.

[Ythan]

What on earth does face-snaked mean? Her snakes are like faces? What are the snakes and how are they like faces?

[Ythan]

Boethiah obviously has a lot of snake imagery. Maybe Ayem's way of being snaky is in her public facing persona.

[Ythan]

Still don't really understand why she needs milk fingers to birth the image as an egg, seems counterproductive. I guess because her body is in some capacity going to become his body later on? That makes sense. But fingers plural? Idk maybe one becomes Muatra later and he has a spare.

[Ythan]

"invisible knowledge of words and swords"

I know there's a bunch of "and by words/swords I mean x" later that probably "clears this up."

[Ythan]

I wonder, would the forbidden teachings of Trinimac be Trinimac's teachings or Boethiah's through his mouth? Probably the latter maybe they're just forbidden generally like everything Dunmer do and not forbidden to Dunmer specifically.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

The forbidden teachings of Trinimac are, near as I can tell, the Manichaean worldview of the Sundering (separation of Mundus and therefore the Ehlnofey from Aetherius) being a greatly sorrowful event that all the et'Ada should regret having taken place. UESP says that's what it is, and while I think it's lacking in evidence, I come to the same conclusion when I do the deep dive and think very hard about Trinimac's whole deal, and the Aldmeri religion (particularly the Thalmor). I'd repeat it here except I already typed it out once and the internet ate the post.

[Ythan]

Boethiah's words in Trinimac's mouth fits more with the codes of Mephala and the prophecies of Veloth in my mind but he does say "even" and "forbidden" so maybe that is it.