Micro 1053: DmangwGBiaf [game over]

Micro Games (9 players or fewer). Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
Locked
Not Known 15
Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Not Known 15
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3744
Joined: September 15, 2017

Post Post #1150 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 12:41 pm

Post by Not Known 15 »

In post 1148, MathBlade wrote:If you “help” scum by killing a random player ( > likely VT) on no elim it becomes worse.
Greater than rand VT kill


D2 becomes 2 scum 2 PR (ICs) versus 3 VTs.
Elim a VT
Then 2 scum 1 PR 2 VTs elo

PR/IC exists so you don’t miselim. So PR decides who dies and whether town wins or loses.

With 2 PRs there’s 0 incentive to collaborate and every incentive to just no elim, mass claim D2
You overlook something.
1. PR dies Night 1. You lost one lim, are in the evens, and have no info from day 1. Ouch! The chance to find a PR amongst 6 townies is 33% if you kill randomly!
2. You lim a PR. Also, see above. Ouch!
3. You lim a VT, but you have no dayplay info Day 2. If you have just two Masons, for example, then town needs two other obvtown to win. Without much info Day 1.
4. If you no elim or lim a VT you (unless kills get blocked) have only ONE mislim. And 3 VT's. That's still decent.
User avatar
Dwlee99
Dwlee99
They/them
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Dwlee99
They/them
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 25777
Joined: July 3, 2015
Pronoun: They/them
Location: Northeast USA

Post Post #1151 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 1:03 pm

Post by Dwlee99 »

I'd say this is probably more townsided than 2 masons but also more swingy.
I prefer they, thanks :)
User avatar
Aristeia
Aristeia
She
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Aristeia
She
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10219
Joined: July 17, 2021
Pronoun: She

Post Post #1152 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 1:41 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 1151, Dwlee99 wrote:I'd say this is probably more townsided than 2 masons but also more swingy.

You're comparing what happened to a baseline

it's true that

3 conftown + 2 vt vs 2 scum is a lot more townsided than 2 masons + 3 vt vs 2 scum


but we were lucky to get TA investigating someone who didn't get NK'd and wasn't the mailman. [If the TA gets nightkilled we're basically playing 1 conftown PR + 4 VT vs 2 Mafia which is similar balance to if one of two masons gets nightkilled]

also arguably mafia made a mistake by not claiming one of them was a PR - uncontested double PR + invest is not usually what happens.

also mafia can't counterclaim vs masons whereas here they can counterclaim.


mechanically in a closed 9p micro with 2 VT deaths - it always makes sense to mass claim and narrow POE and the scum arguing against this really hurt their dayplay position on D2 for really no gain.
User avatar
Dwlee99
Dwlee99
They/them
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Dwlee99
They/them
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 25777
Joined: July 3, 2015
Pronoun: They/them
Location: Northeast USA

Post Post #1153 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 1:48 pm

Post by Dwlee99 »

I completely agree that there are scenarios in which there are less clears like you pointed out. I also don't think this is townsided to an unreasonable degree. But because there are scenarios like those you mentioned, I think that it makes the setup swingy. 2 masons is 2 masons, whereas TA + FN mailman can be 3, 2, or 1 (or even zero if FN targets the N1 kill) clears.

I don't think swingy is inherently bad for the record, and I also think this setup is pretty balanced, it's just this game I think we saw the swing of the setup completely towards town.
I prefer they, thanks :)
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1154 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 1:53 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 1152, Aristeia wrote:
In post 1151, Dwlee99 wrote:I'd say this is probably more townsided than 2 masons but also more swingy.

You're comparing what happened to a baseline

it's true that

3 conftown + 2 vt vs 2 scum is a lot more townsided than 2 masons + 3 vt vs 2 scum


but we were lucky to get TA investigating someone who didn't get NK'd and wasn't the mailman. [If the TA gets nightkilled we're basically playing 1 conftown PR + 4 VT vs 2 Mafia which is similar balance to if one of two masons gets nightkilled]

also arguably mafia made a mistake by not claiming one of them was a PR - uncontested double PR + invest is not usually what happens.

also mafia can't counterclaim vs masons whereas here they can counterclaim.


mechanically in a closed 9p micro with 2 VT deaths - it always makes sense to mass claim and narrow POE and the scum arguing against this really hurt their dayplay position on D2 for really no gain.
Scum can’t counter claim PR on no info

So it’s lose lose.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1155 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 1:55 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 1150, Not Known 15 wrote:
In post 1148, MathBlade wrote:If you “help” scum by killing a random player ( > likely VT) on no elim it becomes worse.
Greater than rand VT kill


D2 becomes 2 scum 2 PR (ICs) versus 3 VTs.
Elim a VT
Then 2 scum 1 PR 2 VTs elo

PR/IC exists so you don’t miselim. So PR decides who dies and whether town wins or loses.

With 2 PRs there’s 0 incentive to collaborate and every incentive to just no elim, mass claim D2
You overlook something.
1. PR dies Night 1. You lost one lim, are in the evens, and have no info from day 1. Ouch! The chance to find a PR amongst 6 townies is 33% if you kill randomly!
2. You lim a PR. Also, see above. Ouch!
3. You lim a VT, but you have no dayplay info Day 2. If you have just two Masons, for example, then town needs two other obvtown to win. Without much info Day 1.
4. If you no elim or lim a VT you (unless kills get blocked) have only ONE mislim. And 3 VT's. That's still decent.
Pr dies night one on rand 2/7. Less than 30% a little more than a quarter. 75% instant win is always suboptimal.
If you lim anyone D1 you’re not following the way it’s broken so ???

No elim two immediate clears scum can’t cc because has to be first post on D2 literally is what I said and your response ignores it
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1156 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 1:57 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 1153, Dwlee99 wrote:I completely agree that there are scenarios in which there are less clears like you pointed out. I also don't think this is townsided to an unreasonable degree. But because there are scenarios like those you mentioned, I think that it makes the setup swingy. 2 masons is 2 masons, whereas TA + FN mailman can be 3, 2, or 1 (or even zero if FN targets the N1 kill) clears.

I don't think swingy is inherently bad for the record, and I also think this setup is pretty balanced, it's just this game I think we saw the swing of the setup completely towards town.
Nah.

Assume std is dead N1

Then still two innos on D2 with > rand 5/8 for inno

Gamma claims post one D2

Then can’t claim or CC anything

Then it’s GG for reasons pointed out before
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1157 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 1:58 pm

Post by MathBlade »

In post 1155, MathBlade wrote:
In post 1150, Not Known 15 wrote:
In post 1148, MathBlade wrote:If you “help” scum by killing a random player ( > likely VT) on no elim it becomes worse.
Greater than rand VT kill


D2 becomes 2 scum 2 PR (ICs) versus 3 VTs.
Elim a VT
Then 2 scum 1 PR 2 VTs elo

PR/IC exists so you don’t miselim. So PR decides who dies and whether town wins or loses.

With 2 PRs there’s 0 incentive to collaborate and every incentive to just no elim, mass claim D2
You overlook something.
1. PR dies Night 1. You lost one lim, are in the evens, and have no info from day 1. Ouch! The chance to find a PR amongst 6 townies is 33% if you kill randomly!
2. You lim a PR. Also, see above. Ouch!
3. You lim a VT, but you have no dayplay info Day 2. If you have just two Masons, for example, then town needs two other obvtown to win. Without much info Day 1.
4. If you no elim or lim a VT you (unless kills get blocked) have only ONE mislim. And 3 VT's. That's still decent.
Pr dies night one on rand 2/7. Less than 30% a little more than a quarter. 75% instant win is always suboptimal.
If you lim anyone D1 you’re not following the way it’s broken so ???

No elim two immediate clears scum can’t cc because has to be first post on D2 literally is what I said and your response ignores it
Correction is suboptimal for scum optimal for town.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
NorwegianboyEE
NorwegianboyEE
GLADiator
User avatar
User avatar
NorwegianboyEE
GLADiator
GLADiator
Posts: 26779
Joined: August 25, 2019
Location: Norway

Post Post #1158 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 2:53 pm

Post by NorwegianboyEE »

I really wanted to keep playing.
Also i think killing Koba was a smart move in theory. It is easy to say: "Just don’t kill VT xD" afterwards, but consider that Koba did genuinely play very different in this game and that made me and Math think it was because they were PR.
Norwe is spontaneous, has a stream-of-consciouness posting style, usually posts on catch-ups by commenting on past pages posts, gets rather fired up in certain moments in games, is relatively as playful as me in games and likes casual shitposting

- Bunno
User avatar
Aristeia
Aristeia
She
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Aristeia
She
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10219
Joined: July 17, 2021
Pronoun: She

Post Post #1159 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 2:56 pm

Post by Aristeia »

Koba is too bigbrain to do that as PR tho :>
User avatar
DkKoba
DkKoba
They/Them
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
DkKoba
They/Them
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 20624
Joined: January 28, 2020
Pronoun: They/Them

Post Post #1160 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 3:05 pm

Post by DkKoba »

the funny part is that rolling PR gives +3 to my ego
retired
"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
User avatar
DkKoba
DkKoba
They/Them
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
DkKoba
They/Them
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 20624
Joined: January 28, 2020
Pronoun: They/Them

Post Post #1161 (ISO) » Fri May 06, 2022 3:06 pm

Post by DkKoba »

but obv i know what people perceive as "PR" tells and abused that to draw the kill so eh

but generally people who are pushing the agenda you want - PR or not - should be kept alive.
retired
"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
User avatar
User avatar
RadiantCowbells
He/him
Smooth Criminal
Smooth Criminal
Posts: 70855
Joined: February 24, 2013
Pronoun: He/him
Contact:

Post Post #1162 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 7:56 am

Post by RadiantCowbells »

if you wanna complain about the game balance you are welcome to shoot me a dm but I really do not think this was a broken setup like you seem to think it was

consider that a cop 9er where a similar degree of poor night actions were made would have had a cop with 2 clears at n3 and no chance of hunting said cop with a vanilla cop

this setup gives you a PR hunting tool and you also have a reasonable ability to counterclaim one of the PRs. neither tool was used and you did not hit any of the useful roles with night actions. you still had a 50/50 in lylo CCing the cop if town has a total of 3 clears or even a 66% chance if you both make PR claims and let the VT pool be innoed.

all this is a way of saying that you had tools at your disposal that you didn't use correctly and you lost as a result and that is not related to the setup balance and this would have gone no differenty as a cop 9er.
2019 stats: Town WR 76.7%, overall WR 81.667%, 1 scum defeat involving a major mod error in lylo vs 8 scum wins.
User avatar
DkKoba
DkKoba
They/Them
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
DkKoba
They/Them
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 20624
Joined: January 28, 2020
Pronoun: They/Them

Post Post #1163 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 9:18 am

Post by DkKoba »

i didnt wanna bring up CCing but yeah its something thats considered normal that I have had to do regularly as scum in chat mafia in 9p setups and should be something scum do
retired
"1 thing I will give you Dk, I think you are very good at manipulating. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just think you [have] this way with yourself. You know what to say and when to say [it]." ~VFP
"Koba doesn't really have a scumrange/townrange, Koba will kill your pet cat to win a game" ~Pooky
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma Emerald
She/It
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 69101
Joined: August 9, 2016
Pronoun: She/It
Location: Hell on Earth (aka Texas)

Post Post #1164 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 10:30 am

Post by Gamma Emerald »

RC really just said “skill issue” didn’t he
<Embrace The Void>


My pronouns are she and it, please respect that. I don't mind the occasional slip.
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1165 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 3:41 pm

Post by MathBlade »

I think he is saying that

I think he is thinking about his way to play scum as the best when I actually have a pretty good scum rate.

To be able to play good scum you have to have the ability to control the gamestate

With 3 conf towns there is no room to breathe. So RC argues its 50/50

But town has all the information from D1 and D2 and that the conf towns determine every elim

Or you CC which means you can’t perfectly win and have to sacrifice a piece and that other scum has to go deep

Except town knows the other scum has to go deep so there’s no viable strategy.

2+ conf towns on D2 is too strangling.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1166 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 3:41 pm

Post by MathBlade »

Anyone outside that conf town is in essence not playing.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1167 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 3:43 pm

Post by MathBlade »

There’s no way for a perfect win and tell scum it’s fair based on “random chance”

But scum and town don’t have the same leverage.

In a cop 9er there’s equal chance at leverage.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
Aristeia
Aristeia
She
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Aristeia
She
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 10219
Joined: July 17, 2021
Pronoun: She

Post Post #1168 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 4:12 pm

Post by Aristeia »

I do think Cop 9er and this are different in that it's an open setup so scum know to CC a cop whereas here it's not obvious which TPR to claim and if scum claim first, the TA looks like it fits better usually than a tracker or cop claim since there is a mailman that is conftown.
User avatar
implosion
implosion
he/him
Polymath
User avatar
User avatar
implosion
he/him
Polymath
Polymath
Posts: 14328
Joined: September 9, 2010
Pronoun: he/him
Location: zoraster's wine cellar

Post Post #1169 (ISO) » Sat May 07, 2022 5:22 pm

Post by implosion »

I think this is an interesting discussion in terms of the implications on micro game design and how one should play optimally (as town and as scum) in a micro.
In post 1146, MathBlade wrote:9 alive, into next day 8 alive.

2 PRs claim open D2 become conf on virtue of claiming. (Assume no results to be friendly)
6 other players remain. 2 scum 4 VTs.
Assume VT dies
PR dies

2 scum 3 VTs 1 PR.

Miselim a VT then NK a PR

2 scum vs 2 VTs is barely a scum win.

So technically possible for scum to win but then they have no thread control and it’s whoever the PRs say is elimmed dies.

So that’s a thing.
So this will all be hypothetical, and has nothing to do with the game that was played in this thread.

Let's say you do a no-lim, massclaim d2, and assuming an even better case for town than you're outlining here (let's say both PRs are assumed to be confirmed town, scum shoot a VT, and one of the PRs has an additional living clear). So going into d2 there's 3 confirmed town, 3 unconfirmed VTs, and 2 scum.

This is an
excellent
position for
scum
to be in, by my estimation. There is one downside in that, as you say, scum won't have control of the thread in that they won't have the ability to be the ones leading. But by no-limming d1, town now has only one mislim and is in evens, and scum knows exactly who to kill. Yes, by play this essentially splits the game into the 3 confirmed townies who are the only ones "playing the game" in the sense that they're making decisions, but the rest of the players are still playing the game, they can still hunt and such, it's just that appearing town is more important for them than finding scum.

By EV, this situation is fantastic for scum - effectively the town gets to pick 3 of the 5 unclears to eliminate, and they need both scum to be among those 3 people (i.e. they have 3 possible choices of 3 people that will win - both scum + any one of the other three people). This gives an EV of 3 / (5 choose 3), which is 30%. Another way to put it is that all scum need is for one of the two scum to appear more towny than 2/3 of the actual townies. Scum could potentially get there by distancing, or by calling each other town, or etc. In the situation you gave where there are 2 clears and 6 unclears, that EV drops to 4 / (6 choose 3), which is 20%. Of course this is assuming town lims every day, and these odds go up quite a bit if town does lim a VT on d1 (putting the game in odds).

All this is to say that I don't think having outed clears early in the game in a micro, or playing around getting them, is really gamebreaking for town. It might, say, interfere with a particular person's
playstyle
as scum and force them into less comfortable territory (which is I think what you're getting at with scum not having leverage), but it's not good for town in an odds-of-winning way because they have very little wiggle room. Scum can still get a perfect win in this situation in my book - the situation that you described as "barely a scum win" is a perfect win for scum, in that none of them ever got eliminated. And I do think it's possible (though yes, always somewhat risky) to fakeclaim a role even if you don't know what else is in the setup. Typically the composition of scum roles is enough to get at least an idea of what might be claimable (even if they're both goons, which implies a low amount of town power so that it'd be relatively safe to claim something relatively powerful). There's always the option of claiming something weak or flexible, like, idk, a motion detector or a 2-shot rolecop or a bodyguard or a novice watcher. Is it possible that you'll get counterclaimed, yes, but it's extremely unlikely with how many normal roles are on the whitelist at this point. Is it possible that you'll claim a role that doesn't make sense with other roles? Again yes, but game design space has expanded a lot over the years, and I think there are claims that could reasonably fit into pretty much any situation. If you played the early game well enough to be considered towny and get the privilege of claiming after other PRs, all the better - you can claim something on the fly that fits with what they claimed and avoid that risk.

Now, is this a problem of
uniformity
in micro design, that there's basically always two town power roles that become pseudo-clear unless scum claims a power role in massclaim? Maybe. It's sort of a limitation of micro design space. In a literal sense, a micro has much less room to design different kinds of setups - you
can
design setups with one or three PRs but it's harder to do so in a way that won't break current players' meta expectations.
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1170 (ISO) » Mon May 09, 2022 3:41 am

Post by MathBlade »

It’s more a matter of a complete lack of agency.

The proper thing after mass claim is elim the last person to claim a PR as it’s more probably scum.

This eliminates fake claiming with any sort of knowledge.

Then people know that so then after claims if someone scum did fake claim first then it sticks out as a sore thumb then they still lose

Claiming a PR is instant loss of that slot either that day or if extremely lucky next.

This forces a conf town in elo and again it’s about making conf towns like you versus actively deceiving them.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1171 (ISO) » Mon May 09, 2022 3:44 am

Post by MathBlade »

And no if town uniformly and by agreement knows to never post scum don’t know who to kill.

It becomes to town’s advantage to never post D1.

Then scum likely kill a VT.

Then mass claim D2.

One scum at random has to claim PR in their D2 opening post and it has to match the setup. Or gg they lose
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1172 (ISO) » Mon May 09, 2022 3:46 am

Post by MathBlade »

Then there’s the whole matter of town gets agency and scum doesn’t.

The random odds may be equal but then town gets all the ability to sort and communicate and scum turn into a bunch of yes people.

You take away almost all of scum’s tools except one strategy and go “but it’s 50/50”

That’s just not accurate.

If I take away town’s ability to post in complete sentences but then the mathematical odds are 50/50, is it?
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1173 (ISO) » Mon May 09, 2022 4:07 am

Post by MathBlade »

I think many, many of the games here suffer from way too many PRs and I think towns (and scums) will be better by taking them out.

Too many players take a passive mindset of “just wait for the PRs to do things”. Because the site meta has trended towards adding PRs as a whole then VTs never really engage because then it’s wait on results.

This causes more scope creep for PRs. It’s a lot more evident in other setups but there’s no reason town has to have two PRs in a micro. They could have 0, 1, or 2. But now it’s expected towns have two PRs and it’s seeped into the meta.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
User avatar
MathBlade
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
User avatar
User avatar
MathBlade
He/Him
Technical Support
Technical Support
Posts: 42761
Joined: September 9, 2013
Pronoun: He/Him
Location: Western US

Post Post #1174 (ISO) » Mon May 09, 2022 4:12 am

Post by MathBlade »

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=39773

Random selection of an older game.

No PRs town wins.

Recent game town had masons, scum win.

The fix for bad towns isn’t adding PRs.

It’s practice and talking.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
GTKAS -- MathBlade
Locked

Return to “Mayfair Club [Micro Games]”