[SETUP] You Haven’t Won Yet!

This forum is for discussion of individual Open Setups, including theoretical balance.
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[SETUP] You Haven’t Won Yet!

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:19 pm

Post by T3 »

To generate the setup:
Add 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Alignment Cop, 1 Universal Backup, 1 Town Jailkeeper and 4 Vanilla Townie’s. If the Cop and Jailkeeper die on the same night, the UB inherits the Cop.
Roll a d4. If you roll a 1, add a Manipulator, if you roll a 2, add an Overlord. If you roll a 3 or 4 add another Mafia Goon.
Roll another d4. If you roll a 1, add a Manipulator, if your roll a 2, add an Overlord. If you roll a 3 or a 4 and there are already 3 Mafia Goons, add a Vanilla Townie. If there are only 2 Mafia Goons, add a Mafia Goon.

Manipulators are informed of who the mafia are at the start. If the Mafia have majority over the town all alive Manipulators win instead of the mafia. Manipulators appear as villagers upon death.

If all the Mafia are eliminated all alive Overlords win instead of the town.

The main thing I’m attached to is having a randomly generated number of Manipulators/Overlords. I don’t think the amount of town power is good, I think there should be less PR’s but I’m not sure.

Thoughts?
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Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:49 am

Post by Enchant »

1. How you catch Overlords, if they are GENUINE SAME THING AS TOWN WITH SAME GOALS? Hoping mafia kills them on random?
2. Town Jailkeeper is listed as Town. What alignment Alignment Cop and Universal Backup have?
3. What alignments Overlord and Manipulators give if they are checked by Alignment Cop?
4. Death Millers are unfun. Death Godfathers are unfun.
5. Assuming you roll 1 on first, and 1 on second one, it results in two Manipulators.

If there's 2 manipulators, it makes setup 2 Mafia, 2 Pseudomafia (who don't want mafia to die). But there's can't be just two mafia goons, so it adds Mafia Goon. ASsuming you meant all PRs are town, it also results in 3 Mafs, 2 Pseudomafia, 7 Towns. Therefore, Town loses majority at second day after mislim, if both deads are Towns. How they win then? Hope mafia mislim Pseudomafia, just so they shot another townie and force parity again?
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Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:52 am

Post by Enchant »

Also hypothetical question.

Mafia Goon remains with two manipulators.

Who win?
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Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:14 pm

Post by T3 »

With the “if there are only 2 mafia goons, add a mafia goon” is about the dice roll. There are 4 anti town players at max.
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Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:21 pm

Post by T3 »

In post 2, Enchant wrote:Also hypothetical question.

Mafia Goon remains with two manipulators.

Who win?
Never mind, this is probably a garbage setup. I still think I want to see if a theoretical game with 2 scum, 1 manipulator, and 1 overlord can exist though
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Post Post #5 (ISO) » Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:57 pm

Post by Gamma Emerald »

I know more effective names for manipulator/overlord exist
The name for manipulator was Mastermind, idr what overlord was and idk how to figure it out because it was on the EM Learn page which I believe is gone now that EM is dead
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Post Post #6 (ISO) » Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:41 pm

Post by Frogsterking »

In post 5, Gamma Emerald wrote:I know more effective names for manipulator/overlord exist
The name for manipulator was Mastermind, idr what overlord was and idk how to figure it out because it was on the EM Learn page which I believe is gone now that EM is dead
The page can be accessed using the wayback machine. https://web.archive.org/web/20190929125 ... a.com/role

If this URL isn't working I can post one that is.
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Post Post #7 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:32 am

Post by Something_Smart »

Seems like it would be really tough to catch the third parties without associative tells. I guess you can maybe get some from the manipulators, but scum have to deal with manipulators while also dealing with PR's. Conclusively determining there isn't an overlord seems pretty much impossible.

What if the overlords knew all the town PR's, as a parallel to manipulators knowing the mafia? This would give them some more agency to advance their wincon, while also giving them more ways to potentially be caught.
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Post Post #8 (ISO) » Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:50 am

Post by T3 »

Oh, that’s a good idea.
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Post Post #9 (ISO) » Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:12 am

Post by MegAzumarill »

Changes I would make:

Overlords do not win immediately after the mafia are eliminated, instead the game moves to nightless. When either overlords have majority or a townie is eliminated (or the deadline runs out with a no elim) all living overlords win. Eliminating a Manipulator or overlord gives another elim, and eliminating all overlords results in town winning.
This is to prevent town being punished

If 2 manipulators exist they can win by having majority. (Granted a mafia goon is alive) This is to avoid 2 manipulator, one goon scenarios as well as 2v1v1 with 2 manipulators, which is effectively stalemated.



No false flips. Not really needed here. At maximum just obscure which third party role the deceased was and have both flip third party but I'd ditch anything more.

More "Personal Preference" Changes

I would move away from cop/JK/UB and go to a 2 masons, 2 mafia setup to make the manipulator/overlord parallel more apparent. (If overlord does know town PRs) If one more goon then one more mason. Here's an example.

1/6 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, 5 VT
1/6 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, 1 Manipulator, 4 VT
1/6 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, 1 Overlord 4 VT
1/6 2 Masons, 2 Mafia, 1 Overlord, 1 Manipulator, 5 VT
1/6 2 Masons, 2 Mafia, 2 Manipulators 5 VT
1/6 2 Masons, 2 Mafia, 2 Overlords 5 VT
(Feel free to tweak this)


Maybe give mafia a one-shot FBI agent shot. Not sure about this.
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Post Post #10 (ISO) » Tue Nov 28, 2023 5:12 pm

Post by T3 »

In post 9, MegAzumarill wrote: Changes I would make:

Overlords do not win immediately after the mafia are eliminated, instead the game moves to nightless. When either overlords have majority or a townie is eliminated (or the deadline runs out with a no elim) all living overlords win. Eliminating a Manipulator or overlord gives another elim, and eliminating all overlords results in town winning.
This is to prevent town being punished

If 2 manipulators exist they can win by having majority. (Granted a mafia goon is alive) This is to avoid 2 manipulator, one goon scenarios as well as 2v1v1 with 2 manipulators, which is effectively stalemated.



No false flips. Not really needed here. At maximum just obscure which third party role the deceased was and have both flip third party but I'd ditch anything more.

More "Personal Preference" Changes

I would move away from cop/JK/UB and go to a 2 masons, 2 mafia setup to make the manipulator/overlord parallel more apparent. (If overlord does know town PRs) If one more goon then one more mason. Here's an example.

1/6 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, 5 VT
1/6 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, 1 Manipulator, 4 VT
1/6 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, 1 Overlord 4 VT
1/6 2 Masons, 2 Mafia, 1 Overlord, 1 Manipulator, 5 VT
1/6 2 Masons, 2 Mafia, 2 Manipulators 5 VT
1/6 2 Masons, 2 Mafia, 2 Overlords 5 VT
(Feel free to tweak this)


Maybe give mafia a one-shot FBI agent shot. Not sure about this.
Reviving this - what if there were 7 VT’s and not 5? Because the first setup is just a super scumsided version of Friends and Enemies then.
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Post Post #11 (ISO) » Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:41 pm

Post by T3 »

Roll a 6-sided dice. Based on what is rolled, choose one setup from this list:

1: 3 Masons, 3 Mafia, 7 VT
2: 2 Masons, 1 Mason 2-shot Babysitter, 3 Mafia, 1 Manipulator, 6 VT
3: 2 Masons, 1 Mason 2-shot Babysitter, 3 Mafia, 1 Overlord, 6 VT
4: 3 Masons, 2 Mafia, 1 Overlord, 1 Manipulator, 6 VT
5: 3 Masons, 2 Mafia, 2 Manipulators, 6 VT
6: 3 Masons, 2 Mafia, 2 Overlords, 6 VT

Manipulator wins if they are alive and the Mafia have reached parity with the town, if this happens then Mafia lose. Manipulator is informed at the start of the game of the identities of the Mafia. If all the Mafia die then the Manipulator dies along with them.

If all the Mafia are eliminated and there is a living Overlord, the next night is skipped and the game moves into nightless. Eliminating a Town will win the game for all the living Overlords, and eliminating an Overlord will give town an extra elimination. Overlord is informed at the start of the game the identities of all the town PR’s (masons).
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