hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.

[Lukewarm]

engaging with her on it is pointless.

I have no counterpoint because of how obvious it is there are holes in my argument so Cape come save me. FTFY. <3

More like

She is confirmed scum making an argument that she appears intent on doubling down on, so going back and forth with her more here seems pointless unless cape actually finds this in any way compelling.

Nice try tho.

[MariaR]

On a lighter note. Did you drink water today Luke? Make sure you drink your water.

[Lukewarm]

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time? Like, I vote for information and BCG was a big hot topic, I didn't mind voting there regardless of who was on the wagon. You know for a fact this isn't as damning as you're trying to make it out to be.

Cape, I think that this is the line that really shows she is just deflecting, and not actually engaging.

Like... trying to frame it as why are you saying it is "impossible for reads to change and develop over time?" instead of... saying that her read changed, or why. And if her read did change, then why she moved off of it.

She is not actually explaining her actions here, she is *just* deflecting/discreditting the accusation. Like is she actually even saying that her reads swayed, or is she saying "why is Luke not considering that?"

The reason why I was not sitting there thinking "maybe her reads swayed bettween these two points" is because I was looking at her iso, and these three things are literally back to back in there.

Obv mafia 1 dead
VOTE: Toogeloo
Next.

Ngl I started TRing Frog but just didn't say anything cause I wanted people to think I'd push them. Unlucky that they died but that makes me think someone's role would out them as a wolf.

Think I'm voting in Save/MT/Too

Time for wait for results woo

VOTE: BCG

I have arrived

Hey Marci, want to break down the game for me?

People think the game is solved wooo (B

VOTE: MalcolmTucker

Her vote outside of her scum pool came right after she named that scum pool, and she never said one word about BCG the entire time that she was on the wagon, nor when she left.

"Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time?"

Why would I ever think that this momentum was related to reads given the way she did it?

[Lukewarm]

On a lighter note. Did you drink water today Luke? Make sure you drink your water.

I don't normally drink a lot of water on the morning of my chemo day just because they give me so much saline during that anyways, but thanks for the concern I guess lol

How has your water intake been? lol

[MariaR]

Cape, I think that this is the line that really shows she is just deflecting, and not actually engaging.

Like... trying to frame it as why are you saying it is "impossible for reads to change and develop over time?" instead of... saying that her read changed, or why. And if her read did change, then why she moved off of it.

She is not actually explaining her actions here, she is *just* deflecting/discreditting the accusation. Like is she actually even saying that her reads swayed, or is she saying "why is Luke not considering that?"

The reason why I was not sitting there thinking "maybe her reads swayed bettween these two points" is because I was looking at her iso, and these three things are literally back to back in there.

What exactly am I supposed to be engaging with here? You're nitpicking my word choice. My

word

choice when you know they mean the same thing. Like, don't get me wrong I understand you need to push something here but you're trying to make a big deal over my word choice out of all things?

You're also not saying why what I'm doing is scummy, you're like, going down a checklist of what you think a mafia and a villager

should

do and calling it scummy like it's this black and white world like "Look Cape she didn't explain every single action see how scummy that is!" No, that's not scummy. You just want to make it appear that way because that's what a "villager" does. You're actually proving my own point with this on how you're just trying to fit into this mold that doesn't exist.

This level of confidence that made you snap-vote me in lylo. Is the same level of confidence you showed with Enchant but you didn't vote at all...hm odd. Plus, you didn't want to make Cape feel bad so you waited to vote, yeah? What about me here? If we're using that logic, I'm shocked you didn't want to ask me a few questions to be fully sure. You didn't take into account that part of "feeling bad" either hm? No, because you made that up on the fly lol.

[Lukewarm]

Your biggest selling point to this Maria wolf world is that I used the same logic in two opposite worlds...that is it?

We look at your other points: Toog died: Hey look you used the same argument for Math.

Me not voting was scummy: Hey look you did the same thing but even worse because you had no reason not to vote.

You have meta that proves you wouldn't: Hey look so do I

Every single argument point you've tried to use against me you can also apply to yourself, which if I was a villager in your shoes would make me pause and go "hm maybe I'm wrong" and not auto vote at daystart.
Also doesn't explain your fake anger that outright is an entire shift in your personality we've seen this game that's glaringly fake. Along with the fake confidence.

It's just that obvious tbh.

1) this feels like a gross oversimplification / misrep of the things that I have said

But

2) Just because I got to the thread already at the point of "betting the game on Maria being scum" does not mean that I did not think about the other possibilities.

I have already kind of explained why I thought Math and Cape were town.

And your constant play calling me scum over and over sure did not help me think you could be town, when I was looking at you, but I did not really want to build that into the case because it seemed like my own omgus at you would not be very convincing to Cape. But I was comparing that to Cape, who did seem to genuinely go back and forth and have thoughts on me, and Math who consistently had me as town. It was hard not to land on you being the one with a scum agenda there.

But also, are you really arguing right here, that if I were town, I would be unsure between you and cape? Because that feels like the argument that you are making?

[MariaR]

Her vote outside of her scum pool came right after she named that scum pool, and she never said one word about BCG the entire time that she was on the wagon, nor when she left.

"Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time?"

Why would I ever think that this momentum was related to reads given the way she did it?

For a lot of this game, it turned into mech city and that makes my motivation/want to play a game go to near zero, plus when I had a dif game going on at the same time that was more fun? Yeah, I'm just gonna throw some votes around at times, but that doesn't mean you can't ask or do something about it? Cherry picking friendo. Cherry picking.

[MariaR]

On a lighter note. Did you drink water today Luke? Make sure you drink your water.

I don't normally drink a lot of water on the morning of my chemo day just because they give me so much saline during that anyways, but thanks for the concern I guess lol

How has your water intake been? lol

That makes sense, I wish you all the best and hope it keeps going well.

I've been trying to get better, ever since the one day I almost passed out at work (month ago dw) I've been taking an overly large water bottle wherever I go and trying to finish it in 2 hours and refilling it. Sort of works but lord how do people do that daily I have no clue.

[Lukewarm]

What exactly am I supposed to be engaging with here? You're nitpicking my word choice. My word choice when you know they mean the same thing. Like, don't get me wrong I understand you need to push something here but you're trying to make a big deal over my word choice out of all things?

I think that if you were town, watching scum say that your vote moved without reason your response (for the benefit of cape) would have focused on: This is why I voted BCG there, and this is why I moved my vote when I did. Because, if you were town, you would know that you had a town process that got you to do both things.

Instead you focused on framing it like I was being unreasonable to even question it.

Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time?

This is the line I am talking about. It was your opening response, and I don't think even makes sense. Because you... don't even go on to say that your read changed. So this is a throw away line just to attack me here.

[MariaR]

2) Just because I got to the thread already at the point of "betting the game on Maria being scum" does not mean that I did not think about the other possibilities.

I have already kind of explained why I thought Math and Cape were town.

And your constant play calling me scum over and over sure did not help me think you could be town, when I was looking at you,

The first part of this is purely convenient.

Someone calling you a wolf does not auto make them a wolf, you know that everyone who plays mafia knows that come on now. That's not a point, you didn't relook anything.

Okay, cool you have Math and Cape as town so:

You come into the dayphase and not rethink at all or ask questions you just snap vote but...where was that confidence with Enchant? If you really were a confident villager like you were claiming the whole time you would've insta voted Enchant, but you only do that here. And even then the backing you have makes the confidence strange and out of place to begin with.

I won't even get into the fact you've openly dodged a lot of my main points against you but I must go for now so.

[Lukewarm]

You come into the dayphase and not rethink at all or ask questions you just snap vote but...where was that confidence with Enchant? If you really were a confident villager like you were claiming the whole time you would've insta voted Enchant, but you only do that here

There... is a difference between the two situations...

Me voting in 5p elo and me voting in 3p elo have different effects on the game state.

But you don't actually care about that.

[Cape90]

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because you were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

I made my case that it was enchant, but if Cape read it and still thought it was Math, then the next step if to see why Cape disagrees with me.

So long as we disagreed, I did not want to vote, because it takes agency away from Cape. Like, can you imagine if I was wrong, and cape was right, and I voted before we agreed? That would feel pretty shitty.

Okay you are describing literally what Maria had been saying about herself lmao

[Cape90]

Her response to this was: I don't care if Toog was also voting there.

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

usually i don't even notice these things when im hopping around wagons

[Cape90]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

this thought came pretty quick before 3495

[Cape90]

"wanting to be on the same page with other townies before voting in elo"

is just... something that seems fairly straight forward.

Cape, if you actually want me to respond more to this I will. I feel like I can fairly reasonably prove that that is something that I think about games. I had a past game in a guardians set up, where I was in Elo with me+Dunn+unwnd. Out side of that was an IC ffery who could not vote in the ELO.

I was REALLY sure that it was unwnd. Cased him multiple times, engaged in repeated back and forths with her on it. Because she did not agree with me, and she thought it was Dunn. I was not willing to vote Unwnd until ffery and I agreed.

I eventually gave up on convincing her, and voted Dunn, because working with her was more important to me then just... voting my scum read in ELO

dunn flipped mafia?

if not and it was unwnd, you don't have a point here

[Cape90]

I feel like I was pretty clear that I was waiting for Cape to tell me what they thought of my case on Enchant, and making sure we were on the same page.

I cannot even really grasp why you are trying to frame that as a scummy thing for me to do tbh.

You cannot think of a valid reason for why you were sitting there doing nothing when you claimed to be the most confident player*

I'm telling you guys scumhunting 101 if their actions do not line up with their words it's probably one of the most obvious wolf bus tactics in the world I use it to catch so many wolves. See, I can have a good villager game woooo

My actions were:

"trying to convince Cape it was enchant"

You are the one trying to say that the only action that mattered was casting the vote. Which, yes. If we were not in elo, but were confirmed there was scum between enchant/math I would have voted enchant there. But we were in ELO

you have already semi-cased math then immediately backed off of it. That as you have said is what actually happened, you didn't really convince me tbh. I just got there on my own just based on how Enchant was acting + their bad read on me versus MathBlade

[Cape90]

I'm here and not quick hammering.

But also, I am vla today and tomorrow. Jind of shitty timing, and I'm sorry, but I need to put more brain to this game then I can while vla.

Gut instinct is Enchant tho

I'm like pretty sure it's Luke/Enchant and I'm prob voting Luke today

@Cape
@Math

Ready to listen and vote the wolves just lmk

I was already leaning Maria as one of the two based on the Toog scum read there and because I was town reading both Math and Enchant before Elo started.

And this feels like Maria+Enchant to me.

Not alienating either of Math or Cape by calling them scum, and only needs one of them to vote me to win.

yeah these things feel pretty confident that 1 scum is indeed Enchant to me

[Cape90]

the second one was probably b4 the cross though, but first quote stands

[Cape90]

2) Just because I got to the thread already at the point of "betting the game on Maria being scum" does not mean that I did not think about the other possibilities.

I have already kind of explained why I thought Math and Cape were town.

And your constant play calling me scum over and over sure did not help me think you could be town, when I was looking at you,

The first part of this is purely convenient.

Someone calling you a wolf does not auto make them a wolf, you know that everyone who plays mafia knows that come on now. That's not a point, you didn't relook anything.

Okay, cool you have Math and Cape as town so:

You come into the dayphase and not rethink at all or ask questions you just snap vote but...where was that confidence with Enchant? If you really were a confident villager like you were claiming the whole time you would've insta voted Enchant, but you only do that here. And even then the backing you have makes the confidence strange and out of place to begin with.

I won't even get into the fact you've openly dodged a lot of my main points against you but I must go for now so.

IDK I don't do this as town unless I am in a short ass game, and even then, it's rare I just snapvote the first thing. To me it looked like jumping the shark.

There have been points where Luke somewhat contradicted himself in arguments against you, but I haven't felt super compelled by some of your recent arguments?

[Cape90]

You're also not saying why what I'm doing is scummy, you're like, going down a checklist of what you think a mafia and a villager should do and calling it scummy like it's this black and white world like "Look Cape she didn't explain every single action see how scummy that is!" No, that's not scummy.

You just want to make it appear that way because that's what a "villager" does

. You're actually proving my own point with this on how you're just trying to fit into this mold that doesn't exist.

Slightly confused because I feel a double meaning in here

Is it that
1) Explaining every action that you do is something town does.
or
2) Luke's argument against you is something town would do and point out?

If you gave this argument to me as like a blanket statement I would say:

I would assume that mafia would be more self-aware and would want to seek alibis for all their actions. I think as villager I do things more deliberately for sure (or maybe a better word is with a purpose in mind), but sometimes I just do not explain it in the moment, I just do it.

[Cape90]

Yes. Reads change. In response to NEW information. Or even information that you are now reading in a different light.

But she was using the SAME information to call him unpartnered in one post, and then call him obviously partnered in the other.

That is not reads developing.

This is just false. Like that's not how it works. You can look at the same information and come to a dif point depending on how you read something. Like, this isn't even a false point it is just an outright incorrect statement.

I agree, sometimes I need to read back and it changes things for me

wow

mind blown

[Lukewarm]

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because you were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

I made my case that it was enchant, but if Cape read it and still thought it was Math, then the next step if to see why Cape disagrees with me.

So long as we disagreed, I did not want to vote, because it takes agency away from Cape. Like, can you imagine if I was wrong, and cape was right, and I voted before we agreed? That would feel pretty shitty.

Okay you are describing literally what Maria had been saying about herself lmao

It feels like I see the difference, but am not doing a great job explaining.

She looked to me like she was just making excuses to say she was not ready to vote.

I was trying to work with you.

Maybe it is only a distinction that exists because I was piloting my slot, but her play looked like a strategic choice to me.

Espeically given this post.

Ok ty I'm gonna go back to looking at isos

Was her last post before you voted Enchant, and she was at "Oh, I still need to reread more"

But then as soon as the hammer happened, she was actually "lock cleared" math's slot.

Thank Charl for me not voting Math tbh lock cleared that slot on a reread

[Cape90]

BGC pocketed me D1

BCG was equally pockety and weird with STD just to be fair by the way.

Then BCG inexplicably voted STD by the next day just out of thin air. I would argue that treatment was perhaps weirder though you were mentioned in BCG's first post.

I think BCG tried to be unpredictable with their suspicions and stuff and from a glance, seemed to be in antispew almost that entire time

[Cape90]

VOTE: STD

+ naked vote here

[Lukewarm]

Her response to this was: I don't care if Toog was also voting there.

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

usually i don't even notice these things when im hopping around wagons

... what?

She stated her top 3 scum reads.
Then joined a wagon that was not one of those 3 scum reads.
Then left that wagon once it started dissipating.
Just to go back to voting one of the 3 scum reads from her Start of Day list.


"Her vote did not look like it moved based on her reads, and instead moved based on how she needed to be positioned wrt a wagon on her partner"

Was my point in 3641

But it feels like the point got lost, because the conversation got turned towards her voting or not voting with Toog. Which was not actually what I was wanting to talk about. It was brought up as me already thinking about alternative reasons she might have voted outside her scum reads, and "maybe she was sheeping" was a thought, but I was stating why I did not think that that was the case. Like I go into: It does not look like she is sheeping NM or sheeping Toog or sheeping Math, based on her reads, and who made the argument to leave the wagon.