i'm the normal 242 dead thread (game over)

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

imagine playing mafia versus a disloyal vig and 2 tprs that are protective and your only "counterplay" against disloyal vig is "one shot loyal bodyguard" this setup is hilarious

[schadd_]

really the only thing that materially helped town in this game were the two vig shots and one of them confirmed a tpr who was gonna die anyway. maybe you would count the obligatory kill choices on n3 and n4 as town power. idk why you would need counterplay from the setup, the counterplay was shooting nm when he claimed for no reason on day 2

[schadd_]

those two tprs that are protective can also . . screw up the vig

[schadd_]

maybe this game could have been trickier if not for the fact that town pretty much fully claimed on d2. honestly its like hard to balance around that, because i don't know why or when people are gonna do that and it makes town's ev just like plummet a lot. but like if you're complaining about how this game actually went down that just seems counterfactual. it feels like it's been in vogue to just always complain about the setup for like 3 years. i guess i complain about my own setups too. i dont like normal roles in general even though normals are like more than half the games i mod

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

we had literally no night counterplay for a novice disloyal vigilante

so we might assume the town has no protectives because disloyal vig is really strong and if we have no way to counterplay it with like roleblocker or w/e we should be able to kill it at night

except theres an even night doctor that can block our first kill attempt on it??

like thats just insane

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the town could literally no lim every day and the disloyal vig just mows through the entire player list rofl

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

those two tprs that are protective can also . . screw up the vig

why would protectives protect people who the vig is going to target !?!?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

maybe this game could have been trickier if not for the fact that town pretty much fully claimed on d2.

if mass claiming helps the town your setup might be a little messed up because mass claiming is supposed to help the scum side

[schadd_]

we had literally no night counterplay for a novice disloyal vigilante

so we might assume the town has no protectives because disloyal vig is really strong and if we have no way to counterplay it with like roleblocker or w/e we should be able to kill it at night

except theres an even night doctor that can block our first kill attempt on it??

like thats just insane

this peril really only comes up in a small portion of games
-doctor and vig are both alive by night whatever
-vig claims for some reason, but the doctor doesnt
-this happens before an even night

incidentally this happened in this game and neither the doctor nor the mafia hit the vig. so i guess there's an additional assumption that everything happens cleanly and exactly in accordance with what you'd expect. it's a problem that theoretically comes up any time there is a doctor and i don't think i've ever seen it, mostly because a large portion of the town has usually claimed by around d3.

if you want a roleblocker to "counterplay" this, that either means you randomly correctly roleblocked the doctor when they were trying to heal the vig, or you hang out and look for the doctor while blocking the vig (which also just like sucks because you're either blocking them when they shoot town which has no effect and makes people think they're town anyway, or you're blocking them while they shoot mafia, which probably just wins you the game unless town ends up sniffing out that there's a roleblocker). none of these outcomes feel like good mafia to me really. in fact, it's rare that i feel like there's a way to exploit roles to produce interesting thinking for either alignment, especially investigatives. the handful of things i was hoping for in this game was a few instances of town having to figure out "do i think this person would do this thing with that PR at that time", which also completely did not happen

[schadd_]

the town could literally no lim every day and the disloyal vig just mows through the entire player list rofl

ok. um, i think that would be a bad idea

those two tprs that are protective can also . . screw up the vig

why would protectives protect people who the vig is going to target !?!?

the doctor: is also a tracker, maybe you noticed. the doctor and the tracker component have to target the same person
the alien: wants to target mafia and could prevent a kill in that case, and also prevents a kill if it incidentally targets the vig
the roleblocker: only prevents the kill if it incidentally targets vig

maybe this game could have been trickier if not for the fact that town pretty much fully claimed on d2.

if mass claiming helps the town your setup might be a little messed up because mass claiming is supposed to help the scum side

i meant trickier for scum. mass claiming did indeed help the scum side.

[Frogsterking]

No one could have predicted the Town galaxy brain D2 strat with massclaim + sacrifice our JOAT roleblocker for the greater good.

[Alisae]

I heckin’ love mafia!!!
WOW!!K

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

this peril really only comes up in a small portion of games
-doctor and vig are both alive by night whatever

night two?

is it really that hard for them to both survive the d1/n1 cycle in a 16p?

[schadd_]

there's a 30% chance one of those two roles dies by day 2. the reason i said "night whatever" is because it's much more likely but much less problematic on day 2 vs. day 4 for it to happen. if it happens on day 2, sure there's this unfortunate situation for the mafia but also the role which comprises something close to half of town's power is now claimed before it has even done anything. keep in mind that on average you'd expect a given PR to survive until d4 something like half the time, and so the doctor situation might just cause them to have to hold off on killing the vig until the probabilistically typical time. on the other hand, if it happens on day 4 that could create a nasty and unreasonable outcome but it's baseline much less likely for it to happen.

really the only thing that bothers me here is the feeling of it for scum rather than the balance of it, and it seems like that's even mostly what you're reporting to me. if you were to shoot nm on night 2 and find that he didn't die (which would not have happened but etc), then you're like, ok well fuck. what do we do here. do we go hunting for the doctor or do we just shoot nm again hope that the doctor is gated (and gated in a way that's what we want- maybe it's novice? maybe it's 3-shot? maybe it's nights-2-and-3 which schadd has used before? there's essentially no way for us to determine whether that's what's going on). if you then choose option two it would work out, Unless! the roleblocker/alien got lucky and blonked someone correctly on night 3, in which case ba ba ba ba ba waa waa

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

idk why you would need counterplay from the setup, the counterplay was shooting nm when he claimed for no reason on day 2

the reason scum need a way to counterplay a disloyal vig is because claiming as town should be punishable by the scum

there should be some incentive for town to try to hide their TPRs and some reward for scum if they get town run up and to claim

if instead a disloyal vig basically becomes god and is not killable by scum reliably since there are two protective TPRs AND not counterplayable by scum via night actions like doctor, roleblocker, alien etc then the disloyal vig basically becomes a walking god and can control both night and dayplay and thats just insane levels of power.

[Not_Mafia]

really the only thing that materially helped town in this game were the two vig shots and one of them confirmed a tpr who was gonna die anyway. maybe you would count the obligatory kill choices on n3 and n4 as town power. idk why you would need counterplay from the setup, the counterplay was shooting nm when he claimed for no reason on day 2

I claimed for the best reason; I was bored

[Nero Cain]

Who is winning?

[schadd_]

the reason scum need a way to counterplay a disloyal vig is because claiming as town should be punishable by the scum

i think i'm just gonna be done here. every role except the vig would greatly rather not claim, and the vig would marginally rather not claim. i'm just not really blown away by what i'd call a cop that does some extra stuff under certain circumstances.

Who is winning?

i believe mafia are going to win.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i'm just not really blown away by what i'd call a cop that does some extra stuff under certain circumstances.

a disloyal vig is much more powerful than a cop

a cop claim could be a scum fakeclaiming a guilty
or a scum faking a guilty on his teammate for towncred
or any number of things

a disloyal vig self-clears itself when it hits scum - a cop does not

also being able to eliminate another player instead of the person you have a guilty on because that person is already dead is pretty powerful

[Frogsterking]

I guess I'm glad I'm not alive to look for the last scum. I would seriously consider Cape here because it doesn't feel right that they were on the Malcolm wagon. I don't agree with Toogle's analysis that Cape is cleared by BCG iso, but my feeling from Toogle's analysis is that it comes from Town. I think if Cape is the last one then I'd expect to see Cape leave Toogle alive as a mark to mishammer someone else in the endgame.

[Frogsterking]

I'd appreciate if anyone pointed out Cape was on a downward trajectory in my reads, so the timing of my kill could have been to cement a townread there anticipating I might flip my read on him later.

[Frogsterking]

I'd appreciate if anyone pointed out Cape was on a downward trajectory in my reads, so the timing of my kill could have been to cement a townread there anticipating I might flip my read on him later.

I feel like this is a detail being missed right now.

[Frogsterking]

idk why you would need counterplay from the setup, the counterplay was shooting nm when he claimed for no reason on day 2

I would argue this as another point in favor that the timing of my kill was to cement a legacy Townread before I could flip my read on Cape.

[Titus]

Who is winning?

Scum. Math discards everything when pocketed.

You know this Nero.

It's been Luke Cape.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

what if I told you mathblade is mafia :>