Hollow Knight Mafia [game over]

[Klick]

you were justifying that you wouldn't kill peta over ari cause ari tunnels you on style in #6390

but she tunneled you after peta died here

and you have no other games with her

so

Congrats you win this argument on technicality
When I was making the argument in 6390 I wasn't aware/conscious of the fact that that game's events happened after peta died in this game
And so that wasn't on my mind when I posited that as reasoning

[Klick]

Right, it did, but for most of the time it was on Klick

Fire, if you vote me here, Klick will join. He said as much. And that makes zero sense if he thinks it's Gimli like he said he did! It's very clearly desperation. I know it's hard to see when you're the one getting pocketed but you are.

Weirdly, I'd rather bet on the less likely player being scum than get voted out and definitely lose

you're phrasing it in a way that could be interpreted as you saying its more likely furtive

since i'd be the less likely player being scum in this situation

No I clearly think you're more likely to be scum

[Gimli]

and you haven't even began to engage with how it makes sense for me to kill petapan and aristeia and leave a dude that caught me in every game I played as wolf against him

if I'm your solve you have to be able to make sense of that

[Klick]

Klick: *says anything*
Gimli AND furtive: 'What a terrible and blatant attempt at manipulation, could you make this any more obvious?'

That's what it looks like to me, you're saying I never play well as town

I don't have a high opinion of your town play.

I'm sorry but that is a truthful statement of hoe I view your current town play.

[Klick]

Gtg bye all TTYL!

[Gimli]

Right, it did, but for most of the time it was on Klick

Fire, if you vote me here, Klick will join. He said as much. And that makes zero sense if he thinks it's Gimli like he said he did! It's very clearly desperation. I know it's hard to see when you're the one getting pocketed but you are.

Weirdly, I'd rather bet on the less likely player being scum than get voted out and definitely lose

you're phrasing it in a way that could be interpreted as you saying its more likely furtive

since i'd be the less likely player being scum in this situation

No I clearly think you're more likely to be scum

so you phrased it wrong?

its just that then you looked more reasonable when you phrased it wrong, when you're actually saying 'I'm betting on the most likely player to be scum', which feels rather odd

[Gimli]

argh I feel awful

[furtiveglance]

Klick: *says anything*
Gimli AND furtive: 'What a terrible and blatant attempt at manipulation, could you make this any more obvious?'

That's what it looks like to me, you're saying I never play well as town

I don't have a high opinion of your town play.

I'm sorry but that is a truthful statement of hoe I view your current town play.

That's fine, but it's also convenient as I'm pushing you in this game.

[Gimli]

fire can you please end this game

[furtiveglance]

argh I feel awful

why

[Gimli]

not loving myself pushing klick like this

afraid of being wrong and him flipping town and all sorts of regrets

[furtiveglance]

not loving myself pushing klick like this

afraid of being wrong and him flipping town and all sorts of regrets

I know that won't be the case. If Klick is town then you'll be celebrating and saying lol furtive get marinated and stuff

[Gimli]

but like I don't see it I just bashed putting furtive in e1 as an idea that'd win me the game as scum and he won't acknowledge that but I have to acknowledge all his explanations for why he is town even when they all either not work or work with everybody left alive in this game

[furtiveglance]

Yeah fire we've both made up our minds I think.

Like I said, you can hammer or tie

[Gimli]

I'm trying to talk it through but my points are never acknowledged, i have to ask the same thing 3 times and i answered everything klick asked me over and over, and then I'm stonewalling??? okay

[Gimli]

oh and wasting his time too

[Klick]

Writing this in a van without WiFi

Here's where I'm currently at fire. These are the strongest thoughts that are currently going around in my head about the current position. These aren't really points I'm interested in having arguments about, they're largely things that have been discussed in some form already today, but they're the things that are most strongly influencing my current read on/playing in the gamestate.

- I am very surprised that Gimli is opposing my perspective on basically everything I say today as strongly as he is. I feel like he is locking himself into an opposing perspective from me, and there have been several points today where I feel like there would have been significantly more understanding from Gimli about where my head is at if he were town. I feel as though Gimli is

trying

not to see what I'm saying from a town perspective, and when presented with ideas that suggest my thought could be town thought from both me and yourself, he is unwilling to open his position to those ideas at all. This feels like it would not be happening if he is town and would be happening if he is scum.
- Regarding roles and mech: I think the evidence points to scum having some form of non-consecutive kill. This seems to have been widely accepted today. I think this clearly and naturally aligns with Gimli's role... literally being a form of non-consecutive killing ability. It makes a lot of sense to me for Gimli's role to be the unknown scum role that is killing non-consecutively.
- There's less than 2 days left. I believe day ending without scum getting eliminated is a loss condition at this point. I don't think my words are going to get very far with whoever between furtive or Gimli is town. We're at the point where if we're going to potentially make this game a win, the action to make that possible needs to be happening now. From a consequential point of view, if you assume that I'm town, a no lim today is essentially a vote against me tomorrow with where current positions are. (No, I do not believe that Gimli intends to reevaluate things in an ELo, regardless of his alignment. That's inconsistent with his words and behaviour for most of the Day.) If Gimli or furtive are scum, the window for making those eliminations happen is closing imminently.

[Klick]

The first two points above were written a couple of hours ago, sober
The last one was written a couple of minutes ago, slightly intoxicated

[fireisredsir]

Right, it did, but for most of the time it was on Klick

Fire, if you vote me here, Klick will join. He said as much. And that makes zero sense if he thinks it's Gimli like he said he did! It's very clearly desperation. I know it's hard to see when you're the one getting pocketed but you are.

Weirdly, I'd rather bet on the less likely player being scum than get voted out and definitely lose

you're phrasing it in a way that could be interpreted as you saying its more likely furtive

since i'd be the less likely player being scum in this situation

No I clearly think you're more likely to be scum

so you phrased it wrong?

its just that then you looked more reasonable when you phrased it wrong, when you're actually saying 'I'm betting on the most likely player to be scum', which feels rather odd

klick believes furtive is less likely to be scum than you

klick is saying that he'd rather take the bet that the less likely player (furtive) is scum than just lose the game

it was phrased correctly

[Gimli]

the non consecutive kill has NOTHING to do with my role

my ability is creating and giving a gun. if I was scum who could give the gun to myself I'd use it myself. unless I can gift myself the gun the same night I make the gun as soon as all the mafia are dead but look at how stretchy this has to be

you can call me a traitor and you say I'm a non consecutive killer traitor role thing but not that it has anything to do with my nail

I'm the merchant. the merchant in the game improves the hero's nail twice. I produce and send a nail, twice. that's it that's my role.

of course, don't wanna waste your time, but just to make sure this point doesn't get erased.

[Gimli]

klick believes furtive is less likely to be scum than you

klick is saying that he'd rather take the bet that the less likely player (furtive) is scum than just lose the game

it was phrased correctly

how does clearing me not lose the game for klick, unless the plan is to NK me?

[fireisredsir]

Writing this in a van without WiFi

Here's where I'm currently at fire. These are the strongest thoughts that are currently going around in my head about the current position. These aren't really points I'm interested in having arguments about, they're largely things that have been discussed in some form already today, but they're the things that are most strongly influencing my current read on/playing in the gamestate.

- I am very surprised that Gimli is opposing my perspective on basically everything I say today as strongly as he is. I feel like he is locking himself into an opposing perspective from me, and there have been several points today where I feel like there would have been significantly more understanding from Gimli about where my head is at if he were town. I feel as though Gimli is

trying

not to see what I'm saying from a town perspective, and when presented with ideas that suggest my thought could be town thought from both me and yourself, he is unwilling to open his position to those ideas at all. This feels like it would not be happening if he is town and would be happening if he is scum.
- Regarding roles and mech: I think the evidence points to scum having some form of non-consecutive kill. This seems to have been widely accepted today. I think this clearly and naturally aligns with Gimli's role... literally being a form of non-consecutive killing ability. It makes a lot of sense to me for Gimli's role to be the unknown scum role that is killing non-consecutively.
- There's less than 2 days left. I believe day ending without scum getting eliminated is a loss condition at this point. I don't think my words are going to get very far with whoever between furtive or Gimli is town. We're at the point where if we're going to potentially make this game a win, the action to make that possible needs to be happening now. From a consequential point of view, if you assume that I'm town, a no lim today is essentially a vote against me tomorrow with where current positions are. (No, I do not believe that Gimli intends to reevaluate things in an ELo, regardless of his alignment. That's inconsistent with his words and behaviour for most of the Day.) If Gimli or furtive are scum, the window for making those eliminations happen is closing imminently.

i don't think that gimli would necessarily be more reasonable as town than he is being here. i tend to think that he makes up his mind on things early and then fits things to that view, and occasionally suddenly flips his pov. this feels like it more or less fits that pattern except that i agree he's a little more tunneled than I'd expect, just not to the degree that it outweighs me feeling like his play is town

i agree with the second point and it is probably the biggest thing that is making me feel like i will feel dumb if it does end up just being him

the third point is probably true

[fireisredsir]

klick believes furtive is less likely to be scum than you

klick is saying that he'd rather take the bet that the less likely player (furtive) is scum than just lose the game

it was phrased correctly

how does clearing me not lose the game for klick, unless the plan is to NK me?

having two clears makes the situation different enough imo that there is a possible way town wins in a town klick world

[Gimli]

well yeah if I die

don't you think?

[fireisredsir]

i think that gimli prob would have played things differently if he knew that at some point it would be clear to all that there was a nonconsecutive scum killing action

i think he'd take it more for granted that it points to him and i don't really think he could or would pull off acting uninformed about that (not really talking about now, more earlier in the game)