large normal 243: lindOVER

[ballpointpen]

also the gamestate was weirdly closed off as well; it took forever for someone to actually say that kowha is likely town, which is what i felt after his snapvote but it didn't appear like anyone really wanted to talk about actual well-founded reads that were not =rand.

[Cephrir]

is that "the gamestate being weirdly closed off" or "you not agreeing with anyone who was posting content"

[Save The Dragons]

cephy is town

[ballpointpen]

is that "the gamestate being weirdly closed off" or "you not agreeing with anyone who was posting content"

maybe. probably shouldn't have expected anyone to think about players that deeply early in the game, but i was expecting something more than contrib=town and that's exactly what i saw

[MalcolmTucker]

It's meta to a degree but I'm more simply pointing out Andante's jokey early tone and attempt to make friends is conductive to their approach as town and I've seen it before. It doesn't particularly alarm me at this stage of the game.

I don't think their vote on you is astonishingly fleshed out, but their logic that they think the scumread is really weak in a way they don't believe to be town feels consistent enough that it again doesn't ping or worry me at all.

Any games specifically that Andante opens jokingly as town/is this all encompassing play? What scumread is really weak in a way they don't believe to be town? I'm commenting in media res so I'm in confusion with the context

Been a while since I've played but I'd say Andante's early posting style has been consistent with just about every game I've played with them.

[Cephrir]

cephy is town

God damn it how can you telllllll

[MalcolmTucker]

Quick skim of Curious Karma's ISO would move them into slight scumlean for me at the moment. I could be on the wrong track but their posts don't feel like they're coming from a town mindset so far.

LOL, well you covered all of your bases then didnt you? "Im leaning scum, but could be wrong" What post in particular do you feel is not coming from a town mindset?

If I am leaning scum in your opinion, why not vote me? I am not close to being hammered. And so much information could come out of a little pressure.

I play this way a lot. I'll admit when I'm uncertain and I'm often uncertain early game. Never feel the need to go all-out with a read as town because to do so wouldn't reflect how I'm thinking.

I don't tend to vote heavily early game as a general rule and I'd have Ballpoint down as scummier than you anyway.

Post 97 pinged me a little because the joking attempt to get a wagon on you feels really forced - as is your hint now I should vote for you. You clearly don't think you should be read as scum so why do you want attention to be wasted on you? It feels like a failed attempt at wanting to look townie by acting as if you're cool with people voting for you. It doesn't reflect how you're approaching the game.

I don't think Andante is particularly scummy and feel like your push there is pretty weak.

Noted...and thank you for your answers.

so telling people to vote me is not from a town mindset? hmmmm Is it a scum mindset then? Or just a null?

In my day I played this a lot. And the MOST information gathered is from the wagons...why they formed...why they failed or succeeded. who was on it and why they stated they joined it, who defended it. I want to get that started. If I make it through this wagon or not, I still win as town if people LEARN FROM IT

also note: as a wolf, I would say all of the above as well. But truth is still truth, wagon is where the true scum hunting can be found.

It can be from any of those mindsets depending on how you approach the game, I'm just aware it's not uncommon for scum to appear as if they are frustrated town or helpful town or even just uninterested town by encouraging votes on them.

However, feel like this is a decent post on the whole which explains your own approach a bit more and makes said posts a bit more understandable - if you have good analysis or insight on your wagon down the line whatever happens I'll potentially see you as more townie as a result.

[KawaiiKame]

also the gamestate was weirdly closed off as well; it took forever for someone to actually say that kowha is likely town, which is what i felt after his snapvote but it didn't appear like anyone really wanted to talk about actual well-founded reads that were not =rand.

What does this mean?
pedit: Yeah it can come in as any mindset

[Bub Bidderskins]

Feeling stronger and stronger about my curiouskarma read that they're scum. Really feels like flailing and a half baked and reactive scum read on Andate -- someone on the CKD wagon. CKD's posts really don't read like honest faith scumhunting but reactive and made up reasons to try and get wagons going on people. This is why I feel like Andate's town conditational on CKD being scum. I really feel like CKD has been pushing a bs mislim on Andate -- it doesn't read like bussing behavior at all because Andate was under no serious pressure earlier.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

bub noting that karma's explanation for voting kawaii was effectively bullshit is the most villager-y thing he's done all game, and karma's chances of being wolf were raised by a solid 17% because of that

seem legit, cant argue math.

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

I don't have many

reads

, but this is just "I'm pushing a low poster cause I can" and it's "here's a push, but I can't push too much just cause there's nothing for the slot, but if I shade her enough, I can get votes there"

sorry, only enough room for 1 dog in this town.

is that what I said? Where did I remotely indicate I thought you were a low poster? Also compared to who? Are you a low poster? Did I indicate I thought you were a low poster OR did I note that you only tried to make friends and told a joke to get people to like you. Did I even vote you in that post? Also, interesting phrasing there. "reads". Who uses reads? Scum just vote and make up a reasons. They dont use "reads" because they know who scum is.

this reeks of someone trying to come up with a reason to join a wagon, but just makes stuff up. Also slight slip.

VOTE: Vote Andante

also still waiting on Bub to answer my question.

after that, will give a full scum list.

What question?

[Bub Bidderskins]

I have a fairly strong townread on Malcomtucker. Seems pretty honest and good faith in reads. Also, the number of town reads seems like townie behavior. It's better for scum if they can maintain a larger pool of vaguely suspcious people -- more targets for mislim that way. Trying to remove potential targets works against scum's interest.

Btw I think promising content and failing to deliver it is a scumteam and that's why I'm voting glitch

I agree. There are an unfortunate number of lurkers in this game, but I don't think straight up lurking is really all that alignment indicating. Promising content and then lurking though...that seems scummier to me.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am having... A Thought Process

@ckd- why did you call for a wagon on yourself as opposed to someone else?

I have one of those posting/playing styles that gets a lot of action (wagons/votes) no matter my alignment. Dont know why...

AT ANY RATE, felt like my wagon would be the easiest to get started. Would I prefer a different one? yep....but look at the info mine as already reaped.

[curiouskarmadog]

What question?

speaking of honest scum hunting. you went through my posts (I assumed you did, because you are scum hunting right?) and didnt see a question directed at you?

How do you know I am "flailing" if you didnt ready all my post. Im confused. (hint post 136)

[Cephrir]

I am having... A Thought Process

@ckd- why did you call for a wagon on yourself as opposed to someone else?

I have one of those posting/playing styles that gets a lot of action (wagons/votes) no matter my alignment. Dont know why...

AT ANY RATE, felt like my wagon would be the easiest to get started. Would I prefer a different one? yep....but look at the info mine as already reaped.

Darn, makes sense but not the answer I was hoping to slot into my thoughts

One thing I noticed was that your calling for a large wagon shows a consistent thought process with your focus on vote movement to get reads

I was thinking you potentially might have wanted votes on yourself because you know you're town, making those votes even more information heavy for your personal scumhunting process. I was prepared to drop a solid townread if I got that answer :p

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Andante

[Cephrir]

actually yeah sure

lmaooo ohh good luck with this "fight" dog cause I am back. Stress be gone. You want me here? oh I'm here, no longer that easy push cause I had no posts...

VOTE: Andante

[Glitch]

Hello all, sorry for being so inactive. I came down with a fever Friday night and felt like death all day yesterday. Much better today. Taking some time to dive deeper through the thread from the beginning. As I go I'll make a few posts so I don't end up with one big wall of text.

Page 1
Post 21 breaks right out of the gate with horrible logic. Bub light SR’s Kawaii or Hu Tao saying their “hello” posts were scummy for not contributing anything and being non-commital. Bub admits that it’s weak and it is. However he makes a somewhat more palatable point that based on intros alone, Kawaii and Hu Tao are not scum together because 18+19 as both scum would be unlikely. However IMO this is underestimating the power of scum theatre.

Page 2
Post 30 I appreciate ballpoint calling out the bad reasoning in 21.

33 strikes me as quite off. Curiouskarmadog quotes the terrible post 21, agrees with it, and then just jumps on to the other person that was framed as scummy for saying hello. Curious says that they dislike players getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. But Curious just jumps on to the reasoning in 21, which was bad reasoning to begin with, uses it to cast a vote without having to do anything, then turns and says they’re suspicious of Bub for FOSing. ???

In 38, when confronted on the weakness of the reasoning in 21, Bub immediately recants saying "yeah I know it's weak logic but I said it was in the original post." But I appreciate in 39 the dig to generate conversation.

In 41 Cephrir says "everything so far is NAI" and then STD FOS's Cephrir. Why?

46: I think ballpoint reasons in a way that I relate with a lot. I appreciate the way they think and examine things.

let me play the devil's advocate to your accusation: what you pointed out isn't unique to those two users, since savethedragons (i'll abbreivate to STD if that's ok) also just said "hi" without casting a vote, so wouldn't the same kind of logic apply to them?

and while people do vote for reasons during rvs its redundant because these are completely unaligned reasons that would be the same regardless of rand, so the votes are equally as non-commital and passive as the entrances, and the argument falls apart pretty quickly because of that

Sure, it's just the the timing that seemed a little...eh to me. Sort of "hey, let's show my face so everyone knows I'm cool but not actually try to move towards finding scum>" I'll admit it's weak and I'm not married to this tell, but my general read of scum behavior is that they're like politicans who'll pop in to show themselves but don't actually want to be attached to a wagon.

I'm much more confident in my read that it's very unlikely both Hsu and Kawaii are both scum just because of their interaction. It just seems like scum wouldn't banter with each other about such fluff just right out of the gate.

I'm with

STD

and

Cephrir

on this one.

And, as a matter of fact, one game when I was mafia, I tried pushing a similar point to move up the pace and fake a contribution.

This is weird. What has STD said that makes you "with them?" STD has contributed practically nothing. What are you talking about?

---

Be back with more in a bit.

[Cephrir]

Hello all, sorry for being so inactive. I came down with a fever Friday night and felt like death all day yesterday. Much better today. Taking some time to dive deeper through the thread from the beginning. As I go I'll make a few posts so I don't end up with one big wall of text.

Page 1
Post 21 breaks right out of the gate with horrible logic. Bub light SR’s Kawaii or Hu Tao saying their “hello” posts were scummy for not contributing anything and being non-commital. Bub admits that it’s weak and it is. However he makes a somewhat more palatable point that based on intros alone, Kawaii and Hu Tao are not scum together because 18+19 as both scum would be unlikely. However IMO this is underestimating the power of scum theatre.

Page 2
Post 30 I appreciate ballpoint calling out the bad reasoning in 21.

33 strikes me as quite off. Curiouskarmadog quotes the terrible post 21, agrees with it, and then just jumps on to the other person that was framed as scummy for saying hello. Curious says that they dislike players getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. But Curious just jumps on to the reasoning in 21, which was bad reasoning to begin with, uses it to cast a vote without having to do anything, then turns and says they’re suspicious of Bub for FOSing. ???

In 38, when confronted on the weakness of the reasoning in 21, Bub immediately recants saying "yeah I know it's weak logic but I said it was in the original post." But I appreciate in 39 the dig to generate conversation.

In 41 Cephrir says "everything so far is NAI" and then STD FOS's Cephrir. Why?

46: I think ballpoint reasons in a way that I relate with a lot. I appreciate the way they think and examine things.

let me play the devil's advocate to your accusation: what you pointed out isn't unique to those two users, since savethedragons (i'll abbreivate to STD if that's ok) also just said "hi" without casting a vote, so wouldn't the same kind of logic apply to them?

and while people do vote for reasons during rvs its redundant because these are completely unaligned reasons that would be the same regardless of rand, so the votes are equally as non-commital and passive as the entrances, and the argument falls apart pretty quickly because of that

Sure, it's just the the timing that seemed a little...eh to me. Sort of "hey, let's show my face so everyone knows I'm cool but not actually try to move towards finding scum>" I'll admit it's weak and I'm not married to this tell, but my general read of scum behavior is that they're like politicans who'll pop in to show themselves but don't actually want to be attached to a wagon.

I'm much more confident in my read that it's very unlikely both Hsu and Kawaii are both scum just because of their interaction. It just seems like scum wouldn't banter with each other about such fluff just right out of the gate.

I'm with

STD

and

Cephrir

on this one.

And, as a matter of fact, one game when I was mafia, I tried pushing a similar point to move up the pace and fake a contribution.

This is weird. What has STD said that makes you "with them?" STD has contributed practically nothing. What are you talking about?

---

Be back with more in a bit.

i can't tell if this user is awkward or scum but woof

[Bub Bidderskins]

What question?

speaking of honest scum hunting. you went through my posts (I assumed you did, because you are scum hunting right?) and didnt see a question directed at you?

How do you know I am "flailing" if you didnt ready all my post. Im confused. (hint post 136)

So doing this unncessary nonsense is just so scummy. You asked so many random questions to so many random people. Many of them rhetorical, none of them important or insightful. If you actually cared about the answer you would reproduce it. But you dont't really care about the answer because you're just flailing trying to make it seem like you're doing good faith scumhunting when you are asking banal and shallow questions.

But I did find the question(s) I think you're referring to, they're in this post:

Bub,

Do you think avoiding a direct question is scummy or a townie action?

Did you thoroughly read (try to find scum) when you said the below?

I'm getting a mild townie read from Hsu but I'm not 100%. They didn't panic or immediately deflect when under some mild pressure, but did use it as opportunity to ask questions. For example, I read their post #59 questioning curiouskarmadog's vote for Kawaii over Hsu as a good faith attempt to scumhunt and not a panic deflection. Still early and I'm not married to this read, but for now in the town pile.

So instead of him looking scummy to you, you vote me?

In your “you are not scum hunting post”

You completely leave off my question to Hu Tao, why?

IN post 96 (that you did post), I am highlighting to common scum tactics there. Waiting for Andante to address.

also

unvote

And you can kind of see my point here. There's a bunch of questions here, none of them important or insightful, and it's not clear that all of the are addressed to me. But let's go through:

Do you think avoiding a direct question is scummy or a townie action?

I think it depends on the context. If it's a question about your reads, for example, it would be scummy to dodge because you're trying to obfuscate the fact that your "reads" are all bs. But if it's just tangential questions meant to distract from scumhunting, it's not necessarily scummy to ignore the question.

Did you thoroughly read (try to find scum) when you said the below?

I'm getting a mild townie read from Hsu but I'm not 100%. They didn't panic or immediately deflect when under some mild pressure, but did use it as opportunity to ask questions. For example, I read their post #59 questioning curiouskarmadog's vote for Kawaii over Hsu as a good faith attempt to scumhunt and not a panic deflection. Still early and I'm not married to this read, but for now in the town pile.

Yes, I did do a read of Hsu's reaction. That's part of the reason why I started the wagon to begin with -- put Hsu in the kitchen and see if they could stand the heat. But even more importantly, try to get reads based on how various other people reacted to the wagon. My read is pure vibes, but the quick posting, kind of stream-of-consciousness questions seem geniune. Sure, it could come from scum, but based on their reaction to the (albiet superifical) pressure I'd say they're more likely town that I'd expect by random chance.

In your “you are not scum hunting post”

You completely leave off my question to Hu Tao, why?

This is just sealioning. Again an example of what I've been talking about -- a complete refusal to do actual work but asking questions expecting others to do work. This seems like a scummy move because you get credit for seeming like you're scum hunting but others are actually doing the work.

If the question you are referring to is this:

Also btw FoSing is out of style these days

I dont think it was ever in style.

It begins

Hello everyone

So right off the bat I'm somewhat suspicious of both Kawaii and Hu Tao here. This is admitedly somewhat weak because the game just started, but both of these posts are really fluffy, non-commital and not progressing the game. Now, is this progressing the game more than a random vote? I dunno, but the reason why "random" votes are a thing is to create an initial paper trail of some sort...they aren't really random, so it immediately puts the scum in a bit of a pick of whether or not to bus. So far, these posts are just the most flimsy, "hey I'm here but not actually advancing the game" kind of posts.

I'm, going to go ahead and VOTE: Hu Tao


Mainly because it was another post right after a fluff post by Kawaii. Kind of reads as scum thinking "okay, need to say something now to not look suspicious" while being non-comittal.

Also going to put a

finger of suspicion on Kawaii

for similar sorts of reasons, but I think it's very unlikely that both Kawaii and Hu are scum. No way a scum comes in right after their buddy to make an almost identical post.

Im sold.

However, Im going to

vote Kawaii

I hate finger of suspicions...its like getting credit for a vote without having to do anything. If Kawaii flips scum, this looks sketchy.

consider this my

finger of suspicion (any hypocrisy) on Bub

Why vote him over me if you're "sold"?

LOL.....

what exactly do you think his point was there? break it down what YOU think the point is please.

Then yeah I did notice your question to Hsu as it was it was one of the reasons I think you are scum. Just asking "please explain what you think his point is" isn't actually accomplishing anything. It's just asking a totally toothless question that doesn't actually help to find scum.

I feel very good about my vote for CKD. I've made my case, but at this point I think a read of their iso kind of speaks for itself.

[GuyInFreezer]

VOTE: curiouskarmadog

I don't have many reads, but this is just "I'm pushing a low poster cause I can" and it's "here's a push, but I can't push too much just cause there's nothing for the slot, but if I shade her enough, I can get votes there"

sorry, only enough room for 1 dog in this town.

This post is pinging me so I must investigate

I have concluded my investigation. I think it pinged me because it looks like he felt like he had to give some sort of reason to jump on the CKD wagon, which was being a fad at the time.

[ballpointpen]

im still bugged about the absurd amounts of AtE but CKD's posts have gotten slightly more reasonable minus the capitalization
VOTE: Greeting

[ballpointpen]

I think Hu Tao can go to my town pile.

@Hu Tao: what's your experience with Mafia games?

Why?

I liked his response to the pressure.

Bub explained it better in 118.

This also answers Hu Tao's 109.

What about

Hu Tao

's response to pressure did you like? This slot has spent more energy being on the defensive than doing actual scumhunting. Seems to be quite comfortable sitting on the

curiouskarmadog

wagon, which appears to be a cozy place to be for the time being.

i dont like anything about this post, least of all the weird shade on curious' wagon

[Hu Tao]

I agree. That post pinged me a lot. I'm fine with either Curious or Greeting vote right now

[Cephrir]

im still bugged about the absurd amounts of AtE but CKD's posts have gotten slightly more reasonable minus the capitalization
VOTE: Greeting

????

[ballpointpen]

Also, I like this post. This feels authentic. Question though, why werent you curious WHY KT didnt like the Greetings push? This post seems like you are more angry that someone would question you versus understanding the WHY behind the thing. Like we are in Day one, WHY did KT not only not like your "push" but single that out to talk about? Your initial issue should have been with that. At any rate, still feels town.

ALSO, it is kind of cute you two arguing with each while you are voting together. I dont think this is a theater....but it did make me giggle.

I don't like Kowah's push on Greeting.

Well you should. They literally slipped and called me town which is impossible for any town player to know on D1. Its not, however, impossible for scum to know on D1.

????

Do you not know that "X is town" is basically just a way to say "I have a strong TR on X"?

Yeah it wasn't said like that at all. Post 48 - "Both town and mafia can make contentless posts for no reason or for whatever reason really.

It is a common mistake for town

to assume that every post has intention."

That was in response to my 44. "I feel like everything is alignment indicative. Every post is made with intentions. Its not up to the poster to express this, but up to the player-base to interpret."

They did not just simply say "Kowah is town" they responded and said what I said "is a common mistake for town" that's not a town read. That's not a guess. That was an attempt to discredit my opinion on the game followed by a them blatantly mentioning what my alignment is. This does not come from a town POV.

Also, why don't you actually read the game before you come in here and discredit what I've been doing? What gives you the confidence to come in here, tell me you don't like my push on Greeting, and then openly prove you haven't even looked at it?

i didn't finish my post earlier but i think this is a geniune remark and a natural read; kowha's post seems like a really trivial thing to gloss over normally, but the questions they asked prove that they actually cared about what kowha was saying and they also make a good point about kowha's behavior (in general too)

[ballpointpen]

ckd sounds really edgy but it turns out to just be the capitalization
funny tactic to HIGHLIGHT certain words more than others