Skygazer's Mini Normal Review, April 2023 (Released)

[implosion]

Subject: Normal Queue Thread (Players and Mods)

/in to mod mini normal

Spoiler: Setup

1. Town Innocent Child Neighborizer
   
2. Town Simple Vigilante
   
3. Town Vanilla
   
4. Town Vanilla
   
5. Town Vanilla
   
6. Town Vanilla
   
7. Town Vanilla
   
8. Town Vanilla
   
9. Town Vanilla
   
10. Mafia Goon
    
11. Mafia Goon

Spoiler: Role PMs

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Town Innocent Child Neighborizer

.

Innocent Child:

At any point in the game, you may message me privately to reveal your alignment. When you do, I will publicly confirm your town-alignment in the game thread.

Neighborizer:

Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference from another role, that player will be added to this private topic neighborhood, where you may communicate at any time.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Town Simple Vigilante

.

Simple Vigilante:

Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference from another role, you will attempt to kill that player. The kill will only succeed if your target is vanilla (a vanilla townie or mafia goon).

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Vanilla Townie:

You have no special abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partner in crime is [player].

Mafia Kill:

Each night, one member of you faction may attempt to kill a player.

Mafia Private Topic:

You may communicate with your partner at any time in this private thread.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: First Post

Mini Normal XXXX

[Day One]
Moderator: Skygazer
Reviewers: {reviewers}

Player List:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. 
   
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    

Spoiler: Reveals

Spoiler: Second Post (Rules)

Rules (shamelessly stolen from schadd_)

General:

- Please adhere to the site rules.
- Do not discuss this game of mafia outside of this thread.
- Days will be 10 days long.
- Night phases will last 48 hours maximum. On any given night, if all players PM me that they are okay to speed up the night, it will end sooner.
- During night phase, no talking may be done in the thread.
- Do not quote PM's from the mod at all (real or fabricated). This includes specific timestamps and that sort of meta-data; please ask me if you're uncertain whether something breaks this rule. Paraphrasing is acceptable.
- If you have any questions about your role, or the game, feel free to PM the mod.
- "Bah" posts are not allowed.

Voting / Player Actions:

- Vote either with vote tags (VOTE: skygazer) or with bold (

vote: skyg

). Note that nicknames, abbreviations and acronyms are acceptable, as long as the intended vote is obvious. I will state if a vote isn't obvious.
- Don't try to confuse me with your votes.
- An Execution will occur once a majority decision is reached. if no majority is reached, the day will end peacefully.
- Following an execution, it is twilight. You may continue to post until I lock the thread and declare it night.
- If you have a Night Action, you may submit it from Night 1 and each subsequent Night (or whichever nights are specified by the role).

Activity:

- You are expected to post at least once every 48 hours. If you haven't posted for 48 hours, I shall prod you. If you do not respond to the prod within 24 hours (either in thread if it's Day, or via PM during the Night) then I will replace you.
- As well, if you require more than three prods, I will force-replace you.
- If you decide to replace out, PLEASE PM me and don't post in thread after doing so - if you want to rescind the replacement please PM me again and don't post in thread until you hear back.

Misc:

- No impossible/hard to read text, or cryptography. For example, I would prefer that no font size smaller than the one you're reading now be used.
- The mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
- If you need to get the mod's attention, either PM me, or bold the text you wish to draw to my attention.
- I reserve the right to alter/remove/add any rules as I see fit. You will, of course, be notified if that happens, however.

Setup:

- This game has day talk for all private threads.
- This game will have 9 town-aligned players and 2 mafia-aligned players.
- This game follows Normal Game Guidelines and uses Normal Game Natural Action Resolution.

sample VT PM:

Player Name

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Vanilla Townie:

You have no special abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

[implosion]

Primary: Ausuka
Secondary: DkKoba

[Skygazer]

sorry for subjecting you to reviewing two of my stupid setups ausuka

[Skygazer]

anyways i like the idea of secret town shenanigans hence the ic neighborizer

and simple vig is one more confirmable town role plus they can get a few shots off without messing with town too badly

vig is obviously swingy so im fine with swapping that for something else? or maybe giving it a lazy modifier?

i wanted to go for something close to mountainless

bc it's easier to balance

[Skygazer]

*mountainous

[DkKoba]

hello

[Skygazer]

hello! sorry for subjecting you to my bad setup design

[Skygazer]

going to change "Bah posts are not allowed" to "Dead players may not post. This includes "bah" posts and the twilight phase before post-game."

both will still probably happen regardless, and the only thing i can rlly do is shame ppl who break that rule, but i wanna cover my bases ya know

[DkKoba]

looks balanced

the game probably swings dependent on whoever rands the vig

i assume the hood is so the IC can effectively leave a will?

[Skygazer]

Is neighborizer thread closed until someone else joins or does it just stay open from game start? Doesn't matter too much to me bc the IC part of their role means their notetaking won't spew them as town, but I just wanna know what's "Normal."

Also I made the assumption that the Simple modifier will still work against VTs/Goons that were neighborized, but I should probably double check that while I'm here

[Skygazer]

looks balanced

the game probably swings dependent on whoever rands the vig

i assume the hood is so the IC can effectively leave a will?

leave a will, and out themselves selectively to people they trust for some townbloc potential

[DkKoba]

yeah neighborizer has their hood from the start and can write into it, if they were to die night 1 and successfully used their action, the person joining would see everything they wrote. I was in an 11p where someone precisely did that to me and i got to convey their reads

[DkKoba]

Yes, neighborizer does not convert anyone to a new role

[Skygazer]

i think i will make the simple vig a simple lazy vig if that's okay with yall

one time me and like one or two scum buddies were taken out by NSG with a one time triple vig shot and it was cool but *unfun* as scum

[Skygazer]

also if i were a simple vig i think i would try to test PR claims and both scum claiming PRs could be a nightmare scenario

so the lazy modifier would also prevent scum from being stomped for simply not knowing the setup

[Ausuka]

The ic neighbourizer should either be renamed to Activated Innocent Child Neighbourizer or should be confirmed automatically at game-start

Balance wise this looks somewhat townsided to me

Town gets two slots basically cleared - the ic and the vig - off the bat which is powerful, and the vig can give town an extra miselim, although lazy does mitigate this somewhat and seems like a good change. 2 clears I think balances a 9p, so with two extra VTs, i think town should probably be weaker or scum should have some sort of power? I think it could become balanced without changing too much though?

[Skygazer]

Activated IC is what I had in mind here whoops. Will update when I do my next draft. Will go ahead and add lazy onto the vig as well.

Ya I can see this being town-sided. My assumption was that ICs tend to get outted sooner than later and vigs are *generally* more likely to take out town but if both those things don't happen this setup gets rather townsided. I wanted to make the game more than 9 players because with a bad enough vig the game could be over by N2. I also had an old schadd_ game in mind where he had 15 players, 3 masons, a motion detector vs three goons but I suppose motion detector is weaker than a vig...

I wish you could make a modifier apply to only a specific portion of the role... Something like "loyally-bullet-proof activated innocent child neighborizer" would be cool (albeit a mouthful!!) because i could take the "simple" modifier away from the vig and give mafia a PR without it also making that mafia PR bulletproof (from the simple modifier).

So I'm mulling a few different options right now:

1) Taking the simple modifier off and just making the Vigilante a Lazy Vigilante. That way, I can give scum a rolecop and they don't become bullet-proof from the vig's simple modifier. I would also probably want to name the game "This Game Has A Vig" or something (and put it in the set-up section of the ruleset ofc) because that isn't game-breaking info and it would signal to the Activated IC Neighborizer that they shouldn't play scummy enough to get vigged (I've seen some people roll IC and play very scummy as a result).

2) Just make one of the Mafia roles a Bulletproof Mafioso. They're going to be bulletproof anyways with the simple vig so might as well let that be the scum role so scum isn't too overpowered here.

3) Making scum a rolecop (which would be BP due to the simple lazy vig) and giving town a very minor PR to compensate.

4) Successfully petition the NRG to make "loyally-bullet-proof" considered Normal. (/s)

Unless 4 is on the table (which I know it isn't lol) I think 1 is probably the cleanest way to get this more balanced. I feel like simple modifier plus a scum PR weakens the vig too much and could easily lead to town mistakenly clearing a scum PR who fakeclaimed due to the lack of town PRs... stupid setup-spec.

I'll go ahead and make a draft for (1) because that's what I'm happiest with I think. Due to the lack of town PRs I don't think rolecop is too powerful for scum but I could always turn it into something vaguer like a vanilla cop or motion detector. I'm also willing to part with the idea of revealing the existence of the vig publicly if it's too weird, but I really want the IC to play like there's a vig and not like they're un-eliminatable...

[Skygazer]

Spoiler: Setup

1. Town Activated Innocent Child Neighborizer
   
2. Town Lazy Vigilante
   
3. Town Vanilla
   
4. Town Vanilla
   
5. Town Vanilla
   
6. Town Vanilla
   
7. Town Vanilla
   
8. Town Vanilla
   
9. Town Vanilla
   
10. Mafia Multitasking Rolecop
    
11. Mafia Goon

Spoiler: Role PMs

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Town Activated Innocent Child Neighborizer

.

Activated Innocent Child:

At any point in the game, you may message me privately to reveal your alignment. When you do, I will publicly confirm your town-alignment in the game thread.

Neighborizer:

Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference from another role, that player will be added to this private topic neighborhood, where you may communicate at any time.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Town Simple Lazy Vigilante

.

Lazy Vigilante:

Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference from another role, you will attempt to kill that player. The kill will fail if there is only one mafia-aligned player left alive at the start of the night phase in which you take your action.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Vanilla Townie:

You have no special abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Mafia Multitasking Rolecop

. Your partner in crime is [player].

Multitasking Rolecop:

Each night, you may target a player. You will learn that player's role (but not their alignment). You may use this ability and the Mafia Kill at the same time.

Mafia Kill:

Each night, one member of your faction may attempt to kill a player.

Mafia Private Topic:

You may communicate with your partner at any time in this private thread.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partner in crime is [player].

Mafia Kill:

Each night, one member of your faction may attempt to kill a player.

Mafia Private Topic:

You may communicate with your partner at any time in this private thread.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: First Post

Mini Normal XXXX: THIS GAME HAS A VIG

[Day One]
Moderator: Skygazer
Reviewers: {reviewers}

Player List:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. 
   
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    

Spoiler: Reveals

Spoiler: Second Post (Rules)

Rules (shamelessly stolen from schadd_)

General:

- Please adhere to the site rules.
- Do not discuss this game of mafia outside of this thread.
- Days will be 10 days long.
- Night phases will last 48 hours maximum. On any given night, if all players PM me that they are okay to speed up the night, it will end sooner.
- During night phase, no talking may be done in the thread.
- Do not quote PM's from the mod at all (real or fabricated). This includes specific timestamps and that sort of meta-data; please ask me if you're uncertain whether something breaks this rule. Paraphrasing is acceptable.
- If you have any questions about your role, or the game, feel free to PM the mod.
- "Bah" posts are not allowed.

Voting / Player Actions:

- Vote either with vote tags (VOTE: skygazer) or with bold (

vote: skyg

). Note that nicknames, abbreviations and acronyms are acceptable, as long as the intended vote is obvious. I will state if a vote isn't obvious.
- Don't try to confuse me with your votes.
- An Execution will occur once a majority decision is reached. if no majority is reached, the day will end peacefully.
- Following an execution, it is twilight. You may continue to post until I lock the thread and declare it night.
- If you have a Night Action, you may submit it from Night 1 and each subsequent Night (or whichever nights are specified by the role).

Activity:

- You are expected to post at least once every 48 hours. If you haven't posted for 48 hours, I shall prod you. If you do not respond to the prod within 24 hours (either in thread if it's Day, or via PM during the Night) then I will replace you.
- As well, if you require more than three prods, I will force-replace you.
- If you decide to replace out, PLEASE PM me and don't post in thread after doing so - if you want to rescind the replacement please PM me again and don't post in thread until you hear back.

Misc:

- No impossible/hard to read text, or cryptography. For example, I would prefer that no font size smaller than the one you're reading now be used.
- The mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
- If you need to get the mod's attention, either PM me, or bold the text you wish to draw to my attention.
- I reserve the right to alter/remove/add any rules as I see fit. You will, of course, be notified if that happens, however.

Setup:

- This game has day talk for all private threads.
- This game will have 9 town-aligned players and 2 mafia-aligned players.
- At least one player's role in this game is some form of a Vigilante.
- This game follows Normal Game Guidelines and uses Normal Game Natural Action Resolution.

sample VT PM:

Player Name

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Vanilla Townie:

You have no special abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

[Skygazer]

Make that a Mafia Multitasking Rolecop so there's not really positive feedback if town offs the goon

changes made above:
Innocent Child Neighborizer -> Activated Innocent Child Neighborizer
Simple Vigilante -> Lazy Vigilante
2x Goon -> 1x Goon 1x Multitasking Rolecop
Game title changed to "Mini Normal XXXX: THIS GAME HAS A VIG"
Rule added in setup section publicly revealing the existence of a vig

change made below:
change wording of bah post rule to be more encompassing of all death posting

[Skygazer]

Spoiler: Setup

1. Town Activated Innocent Child Neighborizer
   
2. Town Lazy Vigilante
   
3. Town Vanilla
   
4. Town Vanilla
   
5. Town Vanilla
   
6. Town Vanilla
   
7. Town Vanilla
   
8. Town Vanilla
   
9. Town Vanilla
   
10. Mafia Multitasking Rolecop
    
11. Mafia Goon

Spoiler: Role PMs

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Town Activated Innocent Child Neighborizer

.

Activated Innocent Child:

At any point in the game, you may message me privately to reveal your alignment. When you do, I will publicly confirm your town-alignment in the game thread.

Neighborizer:

Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference from another role, that player will be added to this private topic neighborhood, where you may communicate at any time.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Town Simple Lazy Vigilante

.

Lazy Vigilante:

Each night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference from another role, you will attempt to kill that player. The kill will fail if there is only one mafia-aligned player left alive at the start of the night phase in which you take your action.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Vanilla Townie:

You have no special abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Mafia Multitasking Rolecop

. Your partner in crime is [player].

Multitasking Rolecop:

Each night, you may target a player. You will learn that player's role (but not their alignment). You may use this ability and the Mafia Kill at the same time.

Mafia Kill:

Each night, one member of your faction may attempt to kill a player.

Mafia Private Topic:

You may communicate with your partner at any time in this private thread.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Mafia Goon

. Your partner in crime is [player].

Mafia Kill:

Each night, one member of your faction may attempt to kill a player.

Mafia Private Topic:

You may communicate with your partner at any time in this private thread.

You win if at least one mafia member is alive and all other players are dead (or if nothing can prevent the same).

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

Spoiler: First Post

Mini Normal XXXX: THIS GAME HAS A VIG

[Day One]
Moderator: Skygazer
Reviewers: {reviewers}

Player List:

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 
   
4. 
   
5. 
   
6. 
   
7. 
   
8. 
   
9. 
   
10. 
    

Spoiler: Reveals

Spoiler: Second Post (Rules)

Rules (shamelessly stolen from schadd_)

General:

- Please adhere to the site rules.
- Do not discuss this game of mafia outside of this thread.
- Days will be 10 days long.
- Night phases will last 48 hours maximum. On any given night, if all players PM me that they are okay to speed up the night, it will end sooner.
- During night phase, no talking may be done in the thread.
- Do not quote PM's from the mod at all (real or fabricated). This includes specific timestamps and that sort of meta-data; please ask me if you're uncertain whether something breaks this rule. Paraphrasing is acceptable.
- If you have any questions about your role, or the game, feel free to PM the mod.
- Dead players may not post. This includes "bah" posts and the twilight phase before post-game.

Voting / Player Actions:

- Vote either with vote tags (VOTE: skygazer) or with bold (

vote: skyg

). Note that nicknames, abbreviations and acronyms are acceptable, as long as the intended vote is obvious. I will state if a vote isn't obvious.
- Don't try to confuse me with your votes.
- An Execution will occur once a majority decision is reached. if no majority is reached, the day will end peacefully.
- Following an execution, it is twilight. You may continue to post until I lock the thread and declare it night.
- If you have a Night Action, you may submit it from Night 1 and each subsequent Night (or whichever nights are specified by the role).

Activity:

- You are expected to post at least once every 48 hours. If you haven't posted for 48 hours, I shall prod you. If you do not respond to the prod within 24 hours (either in thread if it's Day, or via PM during the Night) then I will replace you.
- As well, if you require more than three prods, I will force-replace you.
- If you decide to replace out, PLEASE PM me and don't post in thread after doing so - if you want to rescind the replacement please PM me again and don't post in thread until you hear back.

Misc:

- No impossible/hard to read text, or cryptography. For example, I would prefer that no font size smaller than the one you're reading now be used.
- The mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
- If you need to get the mod's attention, either PM me, or bold the text you wish to draw to my attention.
- I reserve the right to alter/remove/add any rules as I see fit. You will, of course, be notified if that happens, however.

Setup:

- This game has day talk for all private threads.
- This game will have 9 town-aligned players and 2 mafia-aligned players.
- At least one player's role in this game is some form of a Vigilante.
- This game follows Normal Game Guidelines and uses Normal Game Natural Action Resolution.

sample VT PM:

Player Name

Welcome to Mini Normal XXXX. You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

Vanilla Townie:

You have no special abilities.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

[Skygazer]

hiya any thoughts?

also am i right in remembering that there is a precedence for mods to reveal the existence of a role publicly? i think the above setup is fine assuming town knows about the vig, but i'm worried if the vig isn't public then with my luck the IC plays v scummy and gets shot N1

[Skygazer]

(no rush i don't know if that was too soon for a ping)

[DkKoba]

hiya any thoughts?

also am i right in remembering that there is a precedence for mods to reveal the existence of a role publicly? i think the above setup is fine assuming town knows about the vig, but i'm worried if the vig isn't public then with my luck the IC plays v scummy and gets shot N1

that would not be my first concern, and i think thats just a skill issue on the players part.

it'd be more concerning with the IC being able to gather town players and effectively form a masonry while the IC stays alive and such, although with the distinct lack of power otherwise this is fine.

i think setup is fine as is

2:7 mountainous is considered relatively scumsided yet balanced, and this is 2:9 with 2 effectively IC roles with what could be 2 extra mislims over the 2:7 mountainous. IMO that works out to be fairly balanced and game result relies a lot more on individual player skill than the roles in the game(as its a pretty barebones setup)

[Ausuka]

Tbh i think the 15p schadd game you mention would be townsided for today's standards?

I also think if the IC plays scummy it's like... Within the realm of reasonable expectation that they might get vigged

[Ausuka]

(and therefore it's not really your fault if that happens?)

I still think the lazy version is just a bit townsided but maybe in that case if the mafia have some kind of power that would balance it?