What exactly is a modifier?

[biancospino]

This is possibly a silly question but... what exactly is the difference between a passive role and a modifier that confers a passive ability? That is, why exactly (per the wiki) is Miller a role but Macho is a modifier?

My first instinct would be that stuff that confers a passive ability, and makes sense on its own, like Macho, should really be a role and not a modifier, but maybe I'm missing something idk

[Invisibility]

I think things are usually modifiers when they're more likely to be attached to another role cuz it's more intuitive than if, say, you called a role "Luchador Serial Killer". It is kinda arbitrary when I think about it except for situations like you mentioned where stuff wouldn't make sense on their own.

[biancospino]

Ok but, it's kind of moot since hybrid roles are ok; one could just call it "Serial Killer Macho" if Macho were a role. Frankly I do personally find arbitrarily assigning the status of role or modifier to stuff to be more confusing.
(Incidentally, what is or isn't a role is actually not entirely academic since, e.g., [role]-Enabler is normal (if role is normal) but [modifier]-Enabler isn't clear it is)

[Invisibility]

true I have no idea then

[biancospino]

Entirely credible it's just an historic accident I guess

[Ythan]

These are the questions

Ego

[Ircher]

Perhaps the answer is that modifiers are adjectives whereas roles are nouns. A miller is a noun; therefore, it is a role. Macho is an adjective; therefore, it is a modifier.

I don't think hybrid roles were always a thing; in fact, as far as normality goes, this seems to be a more recent development (within the last three years or so). So before then, it kind of made sense splitting them up. Nowadays, maybe it doesn't make as much sense, but as Invisibility points out, modifiers are still more commonly combined with other roles whereas the same is not true for roles being part of hybrid roles.

[TemporalLich]

Modifiers change how roles work and usually don't make sense without roles.

Roles have abilities on their own and can work on someone who would otherwise be Vanilla.

As convention, modifiers are typically adjectives while roles are typically nouns.

Macho and Bulletproof are roles despite being adjectives, as no one says that a Macho Townie or Bulletproof Townie isn't a role card that makes sense. Ascetic is a role, and it works as either a noun or adjective.

There are also derived roles such as Finder and Enabler. They need a role (or modifier) attached but are not modifiers, as these roles refer to a role (or modifier) but aren't actually the role they refer to.

Ninja and Strongman are unusual in that they both refer to a role and a modifier, though the role version of Ninja and Strongman modify factional abilities. Notably, the modifier version of Strongman is still not Normal yet.

If we leave what is allowed in Normal Games, we start to see modifiers that make sense on a otherwise Vanilla Townie, such as Superstar and Flying. These do change how roles work but have abilities on their own, and technically are

both

roles and modifiers.

Rule of thumb for determining if something is a role or modifier: Try attaching that role or modifier to a Vanilla Townie. If the resulting role card makes sense, you likely have a role. If it doesn't, you likely have a modifier.

[biancospino]

Thanks, that makes sense. Thou it does beg the question why then Macho, Ascetic, Bulletproof are misclassified as modifiers in the Normal page. (And also why Atheist and Hated are in the modifier category on the wiki instead of the main role category; that I assume is just an oversight since Macho is indeed moved)

There are also derived roles such as Finder and Enabler. They need a role (or modifier) attached but are not modifiers, as these roles refer to a role (or modifier) but aren't actually the role they refer to.

Things like (incomplete) Enabler should be called "Functionals", as they swallow something and return something else, change my mind.

Ninja and Strongman are unusual in that they both refer to a role and a modifier, though the role version of Ninja and Strongman modify factional abilities. Notably, the modifier version of Strongman is still not Normal yet.

Incidentally, a Normal Strongman "cannot be stopped from performing a kill" so I wonder if a Mafia Babysitter Strongman would actually have the Strongman part of their role apply not only to the nk but also to the Babysitter's conditional kill

[TemporalLich]

Thanks, that makes sense. Thou it does beg the question why then Macho, Ascetic, Bulletproof are misclassified as modifiers in the Normal page. (And also why Atheist and Hated are in the modifier category on the wiki instead of the main role category; that I assume is just an oversight since Macho is indeed moved)

I believe historically the difference between role and modifier was different and somewhat arbitrary and mostly a result of hybrid roles being a more recent concept - modifiers were things that could be added to roles while a role defines your main abilities.

I believe Bulletproof and Macho actually were thought as modifiers at first, despite me considering them roles nowadays.

Nowadays, modifiers are somewhat more well defined as parts of a role card that change how roles work, with roles being parts of a role card that have abilities on their own.

Things like (incomplete) Enabler should be called "Functionals", as they swallow something and return something else, change my mind.

That seems like a good name. Also, that would make JoAT and Inventor (not a Normal role) functionals, though JoAT and Inventor are syntactically very different from Finder and Enabler (Cop-Finder as opposed to Jack-of-All-Trades (Cop, Doctor)).

also, Captain (not a Normal role) would easily be able to become a functional (and it would actually be better for Captain to be a functional than a role imo).

Incidentally, a Normal Strongman "cannot be stopped from performing a kill" so I wonder if a Mafia Babysitter Strongman would actually have the Strongman part of their role apply not only to the nk but also to the Babysitter's conditional kill

If I were creating a Themespace game, "Mafia Babysitter Strongman" would probably be considered a hybrid role that can act as a Babysitter or Strongman. In Normalspace, "Mafia Babysitter Strongman" would probably give the NRG a headache as it isn't clear whether Strongman would apply to the Babysitter kill or not and I'm like 90% sure that's an unintended interaction, similar to why Backup was amended to not be activated from Backups dying as I pointed out that you could have a setup with two Deputies and no other Cops and have the potential for Cop checks to happen before Backup was amended.

I do want to put out a proposal for making the terms used for Ninja and Strongman as a role or modifier different, in case it is undesirable to allow modifiers to affect factional abilities in Normal and/or Theme design space: Ninja and Strongman would refer to the roles that modify factional abilities, while Stealthy is the modifier version of Ninja and Unstoppable is the modifier version of Strongman (Juggernaut should be an alias for the Strongman role).