Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

[Political Clout]

I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me.

This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1

.

Yeah well so much for that...

do you think it's alignment indicative bingle said they like to review games or are they just enthusiastic about the setup?

[Political Clout]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

[Political Clout]

But yes, most roles especially roleblockers should be on jingle no matter what.

they should?

Sure, if he is neighbour then he has no use for his night action. If he isn't and is faking it for some reason, then obviously roleblocker should also be on him as he wouldn't be trustworthy.

Besides, roleblocker has a 1/8 chance of stopping the night kill. Much higher likelihood of stopping an usefull role like inspector or loyal checker than stopping mafias kill, meaning we're not giving up an invaluable asset with our n1 roleblock either. Of course all these are assuming a town roleblocker.

Don't you think it would make more sense for the RB to block who they think is scum? I mean yeah if they are wrong then they potentially block a useful role, but I still think that's a better play than blocking someone you townread

alignments are random and roles are random.

[Political Clout]

I'm not going to clutter by quoting a lot but I find it interesting that don says he likes invisibilities post and goes into a huge post about mechanical talk with kowah. feelweirdman.

[Political Clout]

VOTE: donempire

[JasonWazza]

My claim is bad because it influences targeting, to the point that it justifies a policy lim. Also, we should be pseudoleashing a roleblocker to my claim, because it actively mitigates the dangers of a roleblocker. Also also, it is proscum to have individual roles be recognizable based on whether they claim to have targeted me in pseudoclaim, completely ignoring that a pseudoclaim by it's very nature groups people into "roles that target townreads" and "roles that target scumreads".

Regardless, the point of a town roleblocker D1 is the threat of a roleblock. Say, for instance, that you scumtrack me. You receive a no result. You don't know whether you are a pretender or have been roleblocked, so whether or not you can safely fakeclaim is in question. Say instead that you get a result of I targeted Kowah. You don't know if you are a pretender or I actually targeted Kowah. Say I targeted no one. You don't know if I holstered, was rb'd or you are a pretender. The threat that maybe a roleblocker might have interfered with information means that scum can't lie about their N1 action easily, which then makes their claim vastly more interesting, because the only viable fakeclaim is to be a pretender and pretenders don't actually take actions.

Just to be clear, this isn't Cognitive Dissonance.

This is you fucked us by claiming the way you did, we have to play around the fact that you have done this now.

That's not Cognitive Dissonance, that's fucking dealing with Reality.

[JasonWazza]

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

[Donempire]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I did warn him.

And i do believe i still haven't made a definite read on kowah, hence why my vote is not on him.

[Donempire]

Shit, posted early. Continuing post 232...

I still wanna see where kowah goes from here, and part of why i'm reading intentions is because there just isn't enough of his posting for me to go off on. I can only make guesses from experience and from seeing who benefits from his kind of posting.

Throwing around ideas at day start is not the same as sounding those same ideas when there are 3 days until deadline. Thats when spitballing turns into advocacy.

[Donempire]

But yes, most roles especially roleblockers should be on jingle no matter what.

they should?

Sure, if he is neighbour then he has no use for his night action. If he isn't and is faking it for some reason, then obviously roleblocker should also be on him as he wouldn't be trustworthy.

Besides, roleblocker has a 1/8 chance of stopping the night kill. Much higher likelihood of stopping an usefull role like inspector or loyal checker than stopping mafias kill, meaning we're not giving up an invaluable asset with our n1 roleblock either. Of course all these are assuming a town roleblocker.

Don't you think it would make more sense for the RB to block who they think is scum? I mean yeah if they are wrong then they potentially block a useful role, but I still think that's a better play than blocking someone you townread

Scum don't have usefull powerroles. You could argue inspector and tracker have utility, but town has far more use for them. Even if roleblocker rbs a mafia power it would do no good if that was a mafia doctor. It has to be the mafkilling otherwise it's useless.

Point is, town needs their results tonight, scum might not.

[Black]

I like jason for town and delta slight town
I think you bingle are focusing a lot a lot on the setup slightly scummy

I don't like this. Why is Bingle scummy for focusing on the setup but Jason is town?

[Black]

I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me.

This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1

.

Yeah well so much for that...

do you think it's alignment indicative bingle said they like to review games or are they just enthusiastic about the setup?

I don't see how that could be alignment indicative at all

[Black]

alignments are random and roles are random

Yeah that part of the setup I do understand. That conversation was assuming town!RB

[Black]

Scum don't have usefull powerroles. You could argue inspector and tracker have utility, but town has far more use for them. Even if roleblocker rbs a mafia power it would do no good if that was a mafia doctor. It has to be the mafkilling otherwise it's useless.

Point is, town needs their results tonight, scum might not

Idk. Maybe this is just a difference in personal mafia theory. I consider the possibility of stopping the night kill worth the risk of potentially blocking a town PR. I don't think I would ever block a townread tbh

[GuyInFreezer]

VC 1.04

Black (1):

Deltabreedy

Bingle (1)

Kowahbunga

Invisibility (1):

Appearance

Political Clout (2):

Bingle, INvisibility

Kowahbunga (1):

Black

Donempire (2):

JasonWazza, Political Clout

Not Voting:

Donempire

With

9

alive,

5

votes to Eliminate

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-06-09 16:17:41)

[Bingle]

Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.

So, probably the last time I’m engaging on this, because it’s already become a huge distraction from actually scumhunting, but what can I say: I can’t resist it.

Jason’s original advocacy for a mass pseudo claim introduces massive risk of mafia being able to narrow role likelihood down by the read type. If black targeted JW here, for example, even without my claim, everyone would pretty well be able to tell that wasn’t a doc shot and was probably about investigating. My claim doesn’t really change that.

What he has been doing is saying all of the things he sees as positive fallout from my claim (such as a roleblocker who is supposedly negative utility being able to target a low priority action if they choose) and trying to point power roles at specific people. A doctor could have the idea that I would be a night action magnet and protect me, or a doctor could think “Wow, neighbor is shit, I wouldn’t kill there” or a doctor could think “Man Bingle is an asshat; I hope that fucker dies.” JW is the one, through arguing specific potential lines of thought, that is actually aiming the doc at me, and the rb at me, and the tracker at me.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERY PLAYER CHOOSE THEIR OWN TARGETS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THAT TARGET IS ME. This denies scum access to the thought processes of the roles to scum.

Additionally, nothing I’ve done is about publicly outing the pretenders, but rather privately letting the pretenders themselves know they are pretenders.

Also, this is a micro. Potential XLO is D3 we absolutely want to have the pretenders know who they are before that point if we can.

VOTE: JW

[Bingle]

VC here

Hi VC!

[Kowahbunga]

I can kind of understand why Kowah thinks that discussion doesn't hurt the proposed no lim, fwiw, and at this point I agree that the belief is a genuine one.

Kowah, what do you think about Merlyn's meta defense of you? Reasonable, unreasonable, banana?

I don't believe meta exists. I am fine with people using it if they feel they must, but to me it's usually coming from an egotistical mind set that "I'm able to solve this game when it can't be solved because of this other game". No one wants to admit that Day 1 is a crap shoot at best so someone invented meta reads as a way to act like they're special.

From my experience with them, this is not a reflection on Merlyn as they do not seem like an egomaniac or anything and this is just my opinion of the general use of meta.

The only real game thought I had from Merlyn making that post is that it was scummy from them and it was an over correction from the previous game we were in. It felt like an attempt to buddy me because they spent most of that game attacking me (scum!merlyn trying a different approach to me since I caught them at the end in that game), so they decided to mention a meta read from that game where I was town and (I felt) give me a soft town read, but then double backed and said it wasn't even a town read, which really didn't make any sense because all the wording really made me think it was, but then when they started seeing how many people picked up on it they wanted it to go back to neutral OR realized they were linking a game to this thread where they were scum and maybe they rolled scum again and didn't want anyone being able to use the same thing on them. It felt like they made the post and brushed it under the rug soon after. Like I get this is a huge stretch, but I am just opening up my thought process to put the thoughts into words. The meta read felt scummy to me, but I also think I'm overreacting to it. I also feel like I'm getting too close to letting meta guide my thoughts a bit here by using a previous game to support a reason someone is scum this game.

[Kowahbunga]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

Everyone will be able to provide information of what they did or what result they got tomorrow if they wanted to. To me this is amazing for town because I believe the game is a race of information. There is a finite amount of information this game has. Scum start with a head start but the sooner town can match the amount scum have, or simply pass it, then the sooner town should win.

To me it feels like this game used to have a bit more of a roleplay aspect to it from all players. But now days it seems more like scum can drop that charade and just get on with it while town feel like they've got to play this game like they're sherlock holmes, holding their cards close to their chest, and not wanting to give anyone else any info because they want all the glory to figure it out themselves.

I feel strongly right now that a game like this where everyone has a role, even if some roles aren't real, could be solved by a mass sharing of info on D1 followed by a no lim to maximize the info provided tomorrow. That scum would be unable to hide by the end of the game. But I think the disconnect between me and literally everyone else that plays, is that the whole town playerbase wants to win the game by limming scum every day until there's none left with the unrealistic goal of the entire town making it out alive. While I understand that's the spirit of the game, and that I'm probably playing against the spirt of the game, I'm just here trying to win. To me, to win a game of mafia is simple. You force scum to lie. The sooner they have less rocks to hide behind, the sooner they have to lie to hide, the sooner it's more likely someone catches them lying.

However, I'm not trying to ruin 8 other people's game. These are just my opinion of it, and I'm not going to stomp my feet until I get what I want. I bring it up, see what interest there is in my theory, and if it's dead on arrival like usual then I'll just fall in line and play the game that everyone wants to play.

[Bingle]

I don't believe meta exists.

/oog

It definitely does. I'm not going to pull up specific examples, but suffice to say that there are people with a certain amount of experience/dedication to reading that are able to have mostly accurate reads on certain people. There are also people who are so shit at one alignment or another that their alignment is pretty much always obvious. Generally though, when people make meta arguments they are doing so very poorly.

The kind of thing that meta is fairly universally good for, though, is determining what kind of person a player is. Like, JW is fairly aggressive, merlyn was pretty cautious from what I could tell, vizzy tends to be pretty go with the flow, you appear to be pretty open and I can't help but get bogged down in theory when the opportunity arises.

None of that can directly tell me someone's alignment, but it does provide a framework to guess at what they might be trying to do in this game, which does.

tl;dr- Meta is a tool to be used in conjunction with other tools. It is very rarely useful as a standalone.

[Bingle]

The problem with your view of the game, Kowah, is that games are designed to not give enough information for town to actually be able to solve them simply through the use of night actions. A game like that can exist, but generally if you only approach the game looking at the information provided by cops/investigations/etc, you're going to lose.

Yes, we will probably end up eliminating town today, but in doing so we will narrow down the pool of players scum can be in. Think of the D1 lim as a cop shot that has the potentially good or bad side effect of leaving a corpse behind.

[Kowahbunga]

176 and 183 make me feel like Donempire knows the roleblocker is town. Also 180 gives out a town read to someone for not wanting mech talk, unless I'm confused isn't suggesting where a roleblocker should go and mathing out the liklihood a roleblocker stops a night kill "mech talk" or do I not understand what mech talk means?

VOTE: donempire

[Bingle]

Like 80% of the thread has been mech talk, and there's really no point to it today. The tl;dr is pick your target based on your own personal thoughts to prevent scum from playing around any publicly assigned choices. We decide whether the flips suggest we should claim targets tomorrow, full claim tomorrow, or claim nothing tomorrow. If we full claim, we discuss whether those choices make sense. If we don't, we continue playing the game of mafia.

[Bingle]

What do you think of JW, Kowah?

[Kowahbunga]

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum? and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

I would hammer it right now if I could.