Mini Normal 2311 | FIN

[biancospino]

Votecount 4-IV

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to hammer.

Votes

JacksonVirgo (1 =

E-1

):

ZZZX (892)

Not Voting (2):

JacksonVirgo, AnimatedWiz

Notes

• The Deadline is due in (expired on 2023-09-29 18:22:06)
  
• You can find the combined mod ISO here.

[JacksonVirgo]

I will tell you the quickest difference you can tell between every town and scum in this game, consistency, or lack thereof, with town's lack of information, we play with the assumption that anyone, could be scum. RN, even when he has a clean result on you, still had his questions, even if he didnt seriously consider it, he flip flopped on me like 5 times in the last day. That alone drove me to heavily town read him at that point. Wiz, you even had a similar thing, where you even suspected RN, Jackson had a very clear pin-point focus on me, with very, very little anything regarding TW, in fact looking at #762 and other posts, you can tell that it was a given that TW was scum for him, even though... well, I can't see him talking about TW much if at all? In fact, you spent more time discussing ME, discussing Mailman, where he somehow became an expert at the topic, AFTER me and RN brought it up, over the last 2 days. Just look at #501, his "earnest scum-reads" are me, and passenger. TW? Who is TW even? If Jackson is town, it should be obvious that Worst is scum, and in that case he would defend his case his hardest, town would not not-care in lim-lose, scum would not not-case in Scum v Town, the only explination for this dont-care behavior is a planned SvS. He spent half the day talking about me, limming me, or me being scum, but didn't bother voting. You might ask, why? Well, because after TW's vote, it would result in his being scum being aparent, when none quick hammers me, or Jackson, then by a simple PoE it would mean 100% that jackson is scum. And with the other pairings we had found, it would be a solved game.

Ducky was confirmed wolf pretty early on in the day, why would I waste effort to solve him. I've been very open in every part of the game, in fact I kept inviting people to discuss with me. Told passenger to clear the air, tell me why he thinks I'm wolf why he is the way he is so that if I was wrong I can be convinced as being close minded is dumb. I've been like this throughout the entire game, I've tried making sure to look into whether or not Wiz was confirmed town from the check or not. Considering worlds where RN was wolf too, you're again just picking and choosing what to call out.

You were also almost certainly confirmed wolf in my eyes as I TR RN by a pretty large degree and he cleared Wiz. You think I'd go and consider more worlds when it's so cemented that you're the wolf? I had a different perspective than RN, so our plays ARE DIFFERENT because of that.

[JacksonVirgo]

The entire section with bending over the losing just doesn't make sense. The reaction and mental state in a 3 man is never that, and in fact I am aware this is all an emotional ploy, but I will say it anyway: If you get into a game, and decide to give up in a lim-lo situation, I don't find that acceptable. But in reality this is just emotional talk, intending to just set this entire thing up. The paragraph about the writing with those assumptions is just fake bs.

I haven't given up but I was going to, just be glad I didn't do a shit thing and give up.

[JacksonVirgo]

You can tell already by this point, that all of his setup for last night was for this point, this entire post is just appealing to emotions. and sure, that is something that I myself often do in some games. But here, it is simply a ploy thats built on everything in the last day. I am not going to comment on RL situation, because I understand that happened, but in reality when its proven that you DID read the game, and you WERE aware of being voted, and having no reaction to that. You didn't give up, you went "lets setup ZZZX, talk about a random note about ZZZX reads!" instead of putting your reads, talking about TW situation, or anything else of use.

I never let off that I didn't read the game. I skimmed it between moments and posted whenever I felt I wanted to post.

[JacksonVirgo]

Honestly, this entire post is just WIFOM

It's easy to disregard arguments by saying it's WIFOM, try a little bit harder

[JacksonVirgo]

In fact, you can tell with both me RN, the moment none claimed mailman, BOTH OF US AGREED THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO DISCUSS IT FURTHER, it was clear the mailman was scum refusing to claim, and there were no tools in the game to find said Mailman, so it would make more sense to avoid any chaos or bs from the topic. Yet you find Jackson very deep in this topic, hence why I went into it here.

I'm allowed to discuss what I feel is important to discuss. It's mechanics that exist so discussing it is worthwhile. Why would a neighbour also require being a compulsive neighbour? What's the point of that? When the entire setup is linked around the Traffic Analyst, which makes it a useless mech.

[JacksonVirgo]

And to prove how useless a vote actually is and it's more often used to make a point, here's a vote.
VOTE: ZZZ

[AnimatedWiz]

Ah, so it seems I have the unenviable role of choosing who is eliminated here—nothing like the crushing responsibility of having to pick correctly to really jolt the sense, y’know?

I’m going to look through this backlog now and give some overarching thoughts.

[AnimatedWiz]

Ah, well, it’s a little too late for me to go through everything here right now and have detailed comments on the arguments from the last day, but everything from both of you seem to have reasonable alternate explanations—which is to say that there doesn’t seem to be any unmistakable smoking guns, which isn’t my favorite sort of endgame to have.

I think, uh, based on the info we have, there’s not going to be any open-shut cases, so I might have to go off conjecture in the end—however, I can at least use some logic on the set-up by analyzing Bianco’s previous set-ups to hopefully figure this new one out.

So, uh, basically—ZZZX also has a good defense, and basically nothing upon this first, somewhat cursory glance over both arguments seems particularly unexplainable to me. I might’ve missed something while reading through, but after work tomorrow I’ll do my best to thoroughly analyze all of this and then organize my thoughts for y’all.

[ZZZX]

I mean, in a sense the setup is interesting, and it explains why it was in review for a while. But I do enjoy it, it adds a lot of questions, which is what I expect a fun setup to have.

And Jackson, you didn't ignore TW when it was clear TW is scum, you didnt mention TW, and none truly saw TW as confirmed scum. So a town-you would've tried to convince us, instead of doing nothing. No?

[JacksonVirgo]

And Jackson, you didn't ignore TW when it was clear TW is scum, you didnt mention TW, and none truly saw TW as confirmed scum. So a town-you would've tried to convince us, instead of doing nothing. No?

I don't really understand what you're saying sorry brother

[ZZZX]

Give me a minute, sorry. I am drained and my last braincell just broke up with me

[ZZZX]

If you look early last day, none had the worst as confirmed scum, and you ignored him when everyone was discussing him/and you. And instead commented on my read list which was very irrelevant there.

Is that more legible?

[JacksonVirgo]

If you look early last day, none had the worst as confirmed scum, and you ignored him when everyone was discussing him/and you. And instead commented on my read list which was very irrelevant there.

Is that more legible?

Oh yeah that makes more sense. I just didn't really have the energy to go against someone like him at that point in time, so I just avoided doing so for my own sanity.

[JacksonVirgo]

And when I say like him, I meant someone going for my jugular the way he did. Not him as a person, I love him

[AnimatedWiz]

So, some notes on the most important things in ZZZX’s arguments:

Spoiler:

ii-

Jackson was reading the thread, proven by post #604 where they commented on my reads, in the same page where you can see they were voted by TW, yet they have nothing to say except that post. They had nothing to comment on TW when it was put to a situation where only they or TW are the prime vote for the day. In fact they casually ignored the entire situation

I will say, Jackson did say that they had to go help their mom in an area without signal/wi-fi around this point, so I’m unsure about this being able to be reasonably associated with anything but legitimate V/LA—at least, I think assuming it’s V/LA before anything malicious is probably best—so we can’t really take the lack of posts here as proof of anything, I think.

Spoiler:

iv-

Jackson, despite the entire situation, despite it being a clear situation where either they or the worst are scum, DID NOT VOTE. Even once in the entire day phase. When it was Elim-Lo. Wait, correction, they did once, then immeditely unvoted when they found it is not the hammer. What?

It did find it really weird how Jackson only voted when they thought it would be the hammer—sure, we can say it was due to frustration, but it feels odd to rescind the vote based on it not ending the elimination right there. While we can’t really extrapolate much from the lack of responses earlier on in D3, this refusal to vote (and refusal to keep their vote) was super odd to me even at the time, and I’m glad you also noted it as weird.

Spoiler:

b- TMI (Too much information)

Logically, in every possible normal world, you expect the confirmed townie to be the lim, and the logical action is to then play around and expect the remaining players, however Jackson's end of day was also very interesting. Where they went to talk to Wiz, and TRY TO CONVINCE RN TO TELL WIZ TO NOT BE BAISED OR WHAT NOT.

In normal situations, this doesn't make sense, why be focused on Wiz? You can have an assumption or an answer to that point, and it might be fair, if not for the method that it was done.

Jackson had a very clear pin-point focus on me, with very, very little anything regarding TW, in fact looking at #762 and other posts, you can tell that it was a given that TW was scum for them, even though... well, I can't see them talking about TW much if at all? In fact, you spent more time discussing ME, discussing Mailman, where they somehow became an expert at the topic, AFTER me and RN brought it up, over the last 2 days. Just look at #501, his "earnest scum-reads" are me, and passenger. TW? Who is TW even?

If Jackson is town, it should be obvious that Worst is scum, and in that case they would defend their case their hardest, town would not not-care in lim-lose, scum would not not-case in Scum v Town, the only explination for this dont-care behavior is a planned SvS.

They spent half the day talking about me, limming me, or me being scum, but didn't bother voting. You might ask, why? Well, because after TW's vote, it would result in their being scum being aparent, when none quick hammers me, or Jackson, then by a simple PoE it would mean 100% that jackson is scum. And with the other pairings we had found, it would be a solved game.

I hate to use this, but I feel there’s a burden of proficiency on Jackson here. Jackson had a lot of wrong reads the entire game (especially scumreads), which is rather suspicious—not conclusive by any means, but still, they did lead the town to the wrong target on D2 and did not assist much, if at all, during D3.

Spoiler:

c- Setup information

Now, setup is interesting. And other than TMI, multiple people, including you Wiz, mentioned how the setup can work with 2 Maf-Neighbors, with the backup neighbor and the informed modifier. Their neighborhood catch up that we requested was not organic, the entire "interaction" of "regretfully" finding out that one of them will be scum or what not felt fake, and jackson did not act with that in mind. In a sense, it can explain his "confidence" in TW being scum, sure. But will it explain that he took no action, and instead settled to non-care for TW, not even defending himself?

Next, is the mailman, which we have established exists, yet somehow questions that the mailman can be a neighbor (#710) EVEN WHEN HE HIMSELF, MENTIONED THAT COMBINED ROLES EXIST IN THE SAME CONTEX!! #828, its not simply about changing their mind, but about finding an excuse to discredit me, even at the cost of discrediting their own post 30 minutes earlier (!).

Next, back to #828, he mentions about me avoiding claiming it,

when in reality it was me who even set the topic in motion, and the only other person to even mention it was RN, and that was AFTER I mentioned it.

In fact, I will add an interesting sauce to the mix, why were the Mailman messages very unhelpful, nor trying to really set anything up? I believe it is because it is compulsive to send to a non faction member. You might say, ZZZX, isnt that TMI? How would you know?
I find it interesting that I have recieved an empty mail today, with RN recieving one D1, and me on D2. To be fair this isn't as strong of a proof, because it turns back to my words, but would a scum-me not claim a non-scum looking role (Mailman is usually more likely to be town aligned, and it makes sense for it to exist as a scum-claim with the way we saw the roles in this game, or to saw confusion).

In fact, you can tell with both me RN, the moment none claimed mailman, BOTH OF US AGREED THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO DISCUSS IT FURTHER, it was clear the mailman was scum refusing to claim, and there were no tools in the game to find said Mailman, so it would make more sense to avoid any chaos or bs from the topic. Yet you find Jackson very deep in this topic, hence why I went into it here.

Oh jeez, can you imagine Compulsive Disloyal Messenger Neighbor Werewolf as a role? I know it’s possible (and not that unlikely given this set-up), but gosh, what a funny idea. I think that, personally, it’s odd to have two communicative roles on one slot, which is a major factor in my trust of Jackson—but at the same time, the Informed modifier on the worst means is likely for some sort of information, right?

Jackson was rather weird about my theory, which could be due to frustration or something along those lines, but I also have to consider how it could also an active attempt to discourage a real solve. Interestingly, multiple people (including me) noted the possibility of a double-Neighbor scumteam D2 after the massclaim, so it must be at least something notable.

Plus, based on Bianco’s previous games, it’s very clear that some wild stuff tends to happen with roles when he mods—we have to consider even the oddest possibilities as perhaps more realistic here than a “standard” set-up.

[JacksonVirgo]

It did find it really weird how Jackson only voted when they thought it would be the hammer—sure, we can say it was due to frustration, but it feels odd to rescind the vote based on it not ending the elimination right there. While we can’t really extrapolate much from the lack of responses earlier on in D3, this refusal to vote (and refusal to keep their vote) was super odd to me even at the time, and I’m glad you also noted it as weird.

I have to re-iterate my playstyle. I don't value a vote and only place it when it's functional in nature. Whether that be to put pressure on a scummy slot, or to hammer. I don't feel the need to place it just for the sake of placing it.

[JacksonVirgo]

I hate to use this, but I feel there’s a burden of proficiency on Jackson here. Jackson had a lot of wrong reads the entire game (especially scumreads), which is rather suspicious—not conclusive by any means, but still, they did lead the town to the wrong target on D2 and did not assist much, if at all, during D3.

While I am very appreciative that you think this highly of me but realistically what do you expect of me? I join a game where nothings happened and I catch someone outright lying (Passenger) and I pushed ZZZ. Neither of these were wrong pushes. I still stand by my Passenger push because that was just scummy, kinda still shocked that they're Town.

[AnimatedWiz]

I admit, at this point at the end of the game there’s so much information to comb through that it’s rather overwhelming. There’s good evidence for both sides here, and it’s so incredibly hard to try to figure out what the best choice is—I feel I might have to go with my gut most of all.

ZZZX has been quiet a lot of the game and consistently rather suspicious. Jackson has been so active in leading us away from the correct eliminations.

I… think I may have to vote soon if I want to make a decision that I stand by.

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson was rather weird about my theory, which could be due to frustration or something along those lines, but I also have to consider how it could also an active attempt to discourage a real solve. Interestingly, multiple people (including me) noted the possibility of a double-Neighbor scumteam D2 after the massclaim, so it must be at least something notable.

Definitely just frustration and I would be frustrated about that regardless of my alignment. It was pushing me for reasons that were not even anywhere close to being confirmed, you were seeming to be living in dreamland rather than down on earth and I was fighting against that. Of course I was frustrated

[JacksonVirgo]

Compulsive Disloyal Messenger Neighbor Werewolf

I know I'm biased as I know I'm not this, but holy god this is absolutely insane to consider is in the game.

[AnimatedWiz]

If I could just ask y’all to make your final arguments for me in the next day, that would help me a lot.

[JacksonVirgo]

I admit, at this point at the end of the game there’s so much information to comb through that it’s rather overwhelming. There’s good evidence for both sides here, and it’s so incredibly hard to try to figure out what the best choice is—I feel I might have to go with my gut most of all.

ZZZX has been quiet a lot of the game and consistently rather suspicious. Jackson has been so active in leading us away from the correct eliminations.

I… think I may have to vote soon if I want to make a decision that I stand by.

Away from the correct elims? Do you disagree that the Passenger wagon was needed? I also was pushing ZZZ primarily, who is a wolf. I'd say I did really well with my pushes

[JacksonVirgo]

Like they outright lied and was called out on it. Do you think that's not a solid push? I feel you're kinda not seeing what actually happened this game but just seeing the results and using that, which like is not how a game of mafia works

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm just the person that caught the lie