Mini Normal 2311 | FIN

[biancospino]

Votecount 4-I (UNCHANGED)

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to hammer.

Votes

Not Voting (3):

JacksonVirgo, ZZZX, AnimatedWiz

Notes

• The Deadline is due in (expired on 2023-09-29 18:22:06)
  
• You can find the combined mod ISO here.
  
• AnimatedWiz is V/LA through the weekend.

[biancospino]

Votecount 4-II (UNCHANGED)

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to hammer.

Votes

Not Voting (3):

JacksonVirgo, ZZZX, AnimatedWiz

Notes

• The Deadline is due in (expired on 2023-09-29 18:22:06)
  
• You can find the combined mod ISO here.
  
• AnimatedWiz is V/LA through the weekend.
  
• Prodding JacksonVirgo

[JacksonVirgo]

Ouchies

[JacksonVirgo]

Game content: Zzz is wolf.

Okay bravo going dark, post more in about 8 hours?

[AnimatedWiz]

Considering we do have a little over 4 days left, I think if ZZZX is able to get their defense in tomorrow, we should have enough time to go over everything and vote before we have one day left—at least, I think so?

[biancospino]

Votecount 4-III (UNCHANGED)

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to hammer.

Votes

Not Voting (3):

JacksonVirgo, ZZZX, AnimatedWiz

Notes

• The Deadline is due in (expired on 2023-09-29 18:22:06)
  
• You can find the combined mod ISO here.
  
• Prodding ZZZX.

[JacksonVirgo]

Considering we do have a little over 4 days left, I think if ZZZX is able to get their defense in tomorrow, we should have enough time to go over everything and vote before we have one day left—at least, I think so?

Mhm, it's kinda hilarious how pivotable this time is and we're all busy lolll

[biancospino]

Announcement

mod announcement

Given the extraordinary circumstances -- of note, there has been essentially nil game-advancing content in the last two real life days (!) --, I have decided to take the following action:

• The Deadline for this Day will be extended by 24 hours. I will retroactively update the VCs so that the deadline indicated therein is correct.

[AnimatedWiz]

Thank you Bianco—we really appreciate your patience with us.

[ZZZX]

Yes, And I apologize for the inconvenience.

I am writing up something as we speak, didn't have as much time as I would've liked, nor am I honestly in a state to write anything, but I will do what I can

[ZZZX]

So, Here is my case study on why Jackson is scum, those points are not ordered in terms of importance, and I had more structures, quotes, etc in mind. and I am happy to expand on any point, but to be completely honest, I just had 32 hours without sleep, and 10 hours of travel, and I can't care enough to look up everything, but I am happy to look up points if needed. I haven't fact checked much of what I wrote, and I am happy to discuss if I say any fact incorrectly. So don't take anything I saw for granted if you want to and double check them, but I am fairly confident about most, if not all, points mentioned below. Also, I tried to use the post tag but it just broke and I couldn't figure out how to make it work, nor could I really quote things. So pardon the headache and check the posts manually, please. I did try to bbcode it a bit to make it more readable

In the beginning, I will also introduce the way I like to read people, by reading their *intentions*, I do not believe there are actions which are inheriently scummy, and I like to look at *why* a person does a certain thing, and to gather their general intents throughout the game, now it is hard to read at one part, but often you can see a pattern that makes it very clear.

I will also answer Jackson's notes in my next post. I haven't really read any of them, and I want this post to be unrelated to his thoughts. which I will undertake next.

WIthout further ado:

a- Yesterday's voting phase, and activity.

One of the more interesting things that you will notice is that the worst decided to vote JV, which would obviously cause a situation of JV v TW, but here are a few interesting facts:

i-

Both TW and JV have started the day with casting doubts on me, with TW even have the logic that I am confirmed scum from their POV, yet neither of them tried to vote me here, instead you find TW just voting JV.

ii-

Jackson was reading the thread, proven by post #604 where he commented on my reads, in the same page where you can see he was voted by TW, yet he has nothing to say except that post. He had nothing to comment on TW when it was put to a situation where only he or TW are the prime vote for the day. In fact he casually ignored the entire situation

iii-

Ok, this depends on what you believe in, but I was clearly active, posting one minute after Jackson was put to L-1, without hammering. You can argue I wasn't quick enough, but I have been clearly both fully active at that time (posting a minute later), and looking at my talks with Random at that exact time, I had the time to hammer. But if you want to argue that I tried but I got P-edited or that despite me and random basically turning the chat into an AOL room, I wasn't around for that 1 minute, sure.

iv-

Jackson, despite the entire situation, despite it being a clear situation where either he or the worst is scum, DID NOT VOTE. Even once in the entire day phase. When it was Elim-Lo. Wait, correction, he did once, then immeditely unvoted when he found it is not the hammer. What?

v-

With the voting situation, me and wiz caused the lim to happen, when the day had 6 hours to go. In a situation where we had to lim or we lose. Jackson didn't seem to give a care in the world. Somehow all the motivation for the early hammer, which would result in some town-cred, is gone when the possibility of a no-lim day and an auto win occured.

So here are my thoughts, and you can take a look at both the worst and Jackson's last day's and compare it with this:

The entire day was built on setting up a lim on me today, it was almost "for granted" that TW will flip scum the way it was treated.. Like look f.e. at post 804. I had expressed all of yesterday that it didn't make sense, because TW just blindly voting someone just because they are in the same neighborhood instead of me who was his clear scum read, Jackson attacing me and not trying to push me, point to the fact that they had no confidence to get a good mis-lim today, but to set up another one when RN is dead.

Both me and RN spent most of the day trying to deconstruct the setup, trying to check different pairings, meanwhile, Jackson didn't try to solve the game, and was busy setting the game up further.

b- TMI (Too much information)

I find this the most interesting, because it has two parts:

i-

Setup
You will find it beyond interesting how many things Jackson mentions that you can see with the wolf we lim'd, whether it is from compound roles (even when we had no reason to believe that to exist), complex (only working on non-VTs), and other information that had no reason to really come out. And you can see the difference between that and wiz's post about informed, which ended up being the case, as that was built on a reasoning line that makes sense, having the backup neighbor and what not. meanwhile, you can tell he has information that we didn't have. If you read his posts with the knowledge now, just iso him, and you will see what I mean.

ii-

Night actions and processes.
Logically, in every possible normal world, you expect the confirmed townie to be the lim, and the logical action is to then play around and expect the remaining players, however Jackson's end of day was also very interesting. Where he went to talk to Wiz, and TRY TO CONVINCE RN TO TELL WIZ TO NOT BE BAISED OR WHAT NOT.

In normal situations, this doesn't make sense, why be focused on Wiz? You can have an assumption or an answer to that point, and it might be fair, if not for the method that it was done.

iii-

Reads
I will tell you the quickest difference you can tell between every town and scum in this game, consistency, or lack thereof, with town's lack of information, we play with the assumption that anyone, could be scum. RN, even when he has a clean result on you, still had his questions, even if he didnt seriously consider it, he flip flopped on me like 5 times in the last day. That alone drove me to heavily town read him at that point. Wiz, you even had a similar thing, where you even suspected RN, Jackson had a very clear pin-point focus on me, with very, very little anything regarding TW, in fact looking at #762 and other posts, you can tell that it was a given that TW was scum for him, even though... well, I can't see him talking about TW much if at all? In fact, you spent more time discussing ME, discussing Mailman, where he somehow became an expert at the topic, AFTER me and RN brought it up, over the last 2 days. Just look at #501, his "earnest scum-reads" are me, and passenger. TW? Who is TW even? I

f Jackson is town, it should be obvious that Worst is scum, and in that case he would defend his case his hardest, town would not not-care in lim-lose, scum would not not-case in Scum v Town, the only explination for this dont-care behavior is a planned SvS.

He spent half the day talking about me, limming me, or me being scum, but didn't bother voting. You might ask, why? Well, because after TW's vote, it would result in his being scum being aparent, when none quick hammers me, or Jackson, then by a simple PoE it would mean 100% that jackson is scum. And with the other pairings we had found, it would be a solved game.

c- Setup information

Now, setup is interesting. And other than TMI, multiple people, including you Wiz, mentioned how the setup can work with 2 Maf-Neighbors, with the backup neighbor and the informed modifier. Their neighborhood catch up that we requested was not organic, the entire "interaction" of "regretfully" finding out that one of them will be scum or what not felt fake, and jackson did not act with that in mind. In a sense, it can explain his "confidence" in TW being scum, sure. But will it explain that he took no action, and instead settled to non-care for TW, not even defending himself?

Next, is the mailman, which we have established exists, yet somehow questions that the mailman can be a neighbor (#710) EVEN WHEN HE HIMSELF, MENTIONED THAT COMBINED ROLES EXIST IN THE SAME CONTEX!! #828, its not simply about changing their mind, but about finding an excuse to discredit me, even at the cost of discrediting their own post 30 minutes earlier (!).

Next, back to #828, he mentions about me avoiding claiming it,

when in reality it was me who even set the topic in motion, and the only other person to even mention it was RN, and that was AFTER I mentioned it.

In fact, I will add an interesting sauce to the mix, why were the Mailman messages very unhelpful, nor trying to really set anything up? I believe it is because it is compulsive to send to a non faction member. You might say, ZZZX, isnt that TMI? How would you know?
I find it interesting that I have recieved an empty mail today, with RN recieving one D1, and me on D2. To be fair this isn't as strong of a proof, because it turns back to my words, but would a scum-me not claim a non-scum looking role (Mailman is usually more likely to be town aligned, and it makes sense for it to exist as a scum-claim with the way we saw the roles in this game, or to saw confusion).

In fact, you can tell with both me RN, the moment none claimed mailman, BOTH OF US AGREED THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO DISCUSS IT FURTHER, it was clear the mailman was scum refusing to claim, and there were no tools in the game to find said Mailman, so it would make more sense to avoid any chaos or bs from the topic. Yet you find Jackson very deep in this topic, hence why I went into it here.

x- Today

I haven't yet read his longer posts, I am going to read that next, but I find #853,

Why?

Wiz is conf town, there is zero universes where you don't want to vote for the other person, especially after you posted your thoughts. That was a pure appeal to emotions, a "Look, I am so nice! I am not scum since I didn't quick vote". Town will always vote and post with the intent to get scum, and a town with a confirmed scum in front of him, will not hesitate to put that vote to use. You can say it is a call to Wiz to not vote until he's heard him out, but he didn't call him out specifically, he called everyone, which shouldn't be the case now, should it?

If you look at yesterday, with the information here, and look at the motivation and intent, the reason why each person posted or voted at any point, it all makes sense. Let me see what Jackson had to say about me now

[ZZZX]

That’s fine by me—I’d like to have us all have a good discussion before we vote anyone.

I admit, currently I am more suspicious of ZZZX since, if you were scum and truly convinced I’d go immediately for you, you would not have left me alive for D4.

Well, I think they believed it will be easier to trick/convince you that RN, and they only did that after softly setting it up throughout half of D3 instead of focusing on whos the current lim

Alright, I was gonna literally just bend over and lose ngl but given that flip I feel like it's more of an insult to my character to bend over and get killed here. Like ducky flipping informed is such a kick in the teeth considering the whole tinfoil around double scum in the neighbourhood and it probably means that I'm fighting an even HARDER uphill battle than I thought I would be fighting (which was enough to make me apathetic towards the game massively D3) but for the sake of all the dead Town, and for myself even I will do my best.

I've written up a bunch of things in the night (not this part) because I thought it pretty safe to do so and from these flips I was correct but the assumption I had writing those posts was that RN is dying and flipped green which leaves me writing everything with the assumption that I will be alive with zzz and Wiz. Which again, turned out exactly how I expected which is such a kick to the gut ngl. I feel defeated and ultimately I feel like Town loses this because of how this is all going out but again for the sake of everybody I will be trying my hardest to not throw this game.

@Wiz

, please give me the light of day and hear me out today and not fall into confirmation bias. You were left alive after you were so passionate about me being wolf and especially being wolf if ducky were to flip Informed. And he did, and I'm royally and hilariously fucked if you don't notice that you were left alive for a reason over the person that was town-reading me. Even if you do think I'm a wolf from this, and I am sure you do, don't vote yet let me try and convey to you that it's actually me that's the Town and I got pretty heavily dogged over from this setup and how everything went down. The stuff below this paragraph is the stuff I wrote during the night and I also wrote some extras but I won't post it in one post (I'm not sure if there's a message character limit), I tried to keep it relatively vague regarding who I am appealing to because I wasn't 100% who was going to die but again I assumed RN was going to die.

--

I recall Wiz saying that I was scummy because I wasn't acting as I was on D2 and I don't wish to use this as an excuse but I wasn't up to my game as I was because my real-life kinda had me in an emotional and somewhat distant state but I'm back to my normal now and fwiw I am sorry for me being super "oh this is so shit, oh I'm giving up" it didn't help my case at all and now I'm fighting the consequences of that. I am now going to put as much effort in as I possibly can to make sure that Town doesn't lose.

I would like to start by saying that I am extremely good and especially consistent at scum, I know that's probably going to come full swing and bite me in the ass but I am not one to make myself appear paired so obviously. Any scum worth their weight in gold would cut their losses and push their confirmed scum partner, but I didn't. I pushed against it because of the long-game (today, me vs zzz that I don't believe I'd win because of your reads), do you think scum of my caliber (I hate sounding this stuck up, please get my intention) would actually pair this hard on a scum partner that was 100% going out? I feel that's quite an insult to my skill to assume such a thing but I promise I will not be upset at you if you choose wrongly here, it is a game after all <3

The entire section with bending over the losing just doesn't make sense. The reaction and mental state in a 3 man is never that, and in fact I am aware this is all an emotional ploy, but I will say it anyway: If you get into a game, and decide to give up in a lim-lo situation, I don't find that acceptable. But in reality this is just emotional talk, intending to just set this entire thing up. The paragraph about the writing with those assumptions is just fake bs.

You can tell already by this point, that all of his setup for last night was for this point, this entire post is just appealing to emotions. and sure, that is something that I myself often do in some games. But here, it is simply a ploy thats built on everything in the last day. I am not going to comment on RL situation, because I understand that happened, but in reality when its proven that you DID read the game, and you WERE aware of being voted, and having no reaction to that. You didn't give up, you went "lets setup ZZZX, talk about a random note about ZZZX reads!" instead of putting your reads, talking about TW situation, or anything else of use.

And lets not do the entire "I am a super star scum" defence.


More incoming in a few minutes

[biancospino]

General reminder to refer to each player with the correct pronouns

[ZZZX]

My apologies Jackson, I haven't paid attention.

[ZZZX]

Regarding a quick case of ZZZ, I didn't put a super duper lotta effort in as I can't really quote stuff when the thread is locked so writing stuff by hand is really frustrating but this is what I got so far. Outlining his early game primarily which is where a lot of his discrepancies compared to his late-game where he has his direction (aka needs me dead). I also did get some mid to late game references in here that I did want to discuss. I wrote this in about half an hour though so like it isn't

everything

Anyway here's the case

32 is them being incredibly apprehensive for jumping into the conversation, and considering their recent demeanor this is at conflict with their general personality meaning it would be either as a joke or it's due to them being afraid to stick their neck out early, and as proven by 51 it was in fact

not

a joke meaning it's scum!AI. In 51 they are incredibly and overly cautious around placing their vote. They specify that it's a serious vote, in which why would Town ever need to disclaim that? I know, because they aren't Town and they're acting incredibly cautious as a way to save face. He also contradicts himself in this very post as he is saying that it's a genuine read with reason behind it BUT also only a vote because he has no other read elsewhere which at raw value is a logical contradiction. He then acts LAMIST (if you don't know, that means they're posting in a way that pretty much says "Look at me, I'm so townie", aka doing things for the image) with the E-2 statement which is both unneeded and just reeks that he's being overly self-conscious because he is afraid of harming is image.

In post 108 he once again is

incredibly

apprehensive to place their suspicions on RN and instead if resulting to cheap shading and discrediting. Not having the balls to commit to the read, they're afraid of putting themselves into the heat and again, it's proven that this is not how they typically act meaning it's them afraid for a

reason

and that reason is clearly because they're a wolf.

ZZZ also has a completely different appearance vs his actions, especially surrounding him wanting to wait to discuss around EoD2 but as soon as he appears, he says his thoughts and then

immediately

hammers it without even waiting for anybody to hop on and discuss. It took him 30 minutes since he started catching up after wanting to discuss to his hammer. There is absolutely no way a Town has such a perspective contradiction.

ZZZ is also the only logical person to be the Mailman. There is no reason for a scum neighbour (which would be me in that world) to have both a Mailman AND a neighbour shot. What's the purpose? There's a Traffic Analyst, I assume it would be primarily to keep the scum outside of the neighbourhood to not be able to get red-checked as easily and the TA is purely a means to clear Town as opposed to incriminate Mafia. It is his problem that he did not claim it when a mass-claim came around, but if mafia neighbour had a mailman, would they not also claim that as it's part of their role? And claiming it does not incriminate them at all? (To clarify, it was my pred that claimed, not me).

RE 32/51, you can check this, this is my first Mafia game in a few years, and I couldn't remember the terms. I don't see how asking what the term for OMGUS is in RVS is scum-aligned, and as I mentioned below I don't believe in that because of the whole fun topic of intentions.

What would scum me's intention be in doing that? In reality, it is a fully NAI because it doesn't serve any purpose, it doesn't give me and cred by doing say a read, it doesn't make people read me any better or worse.

My vote, on NM who was the only player I know with the question, is something that I've done since 2014, I am happy to tomorrow grab you a game where I asked NM himself that same question in the same way, and I will find you like 3 of those as scum as 3 as town, and again, whats the point or intention of scum me here? In reality, it was my attempt at forcing NM into a conversation, which is something you can see in older games, helping me read him legitimately. For scum me, is the intention... to appear to make a serious vote? Really?

My post 108 wasn't a scum read, I was annoyed, and I still am, at the quick hammer. And trying to spin that as me being afraid to commit to reads is why I believe people try to use the whole concept of "scummy things" as a general list as an abusable thing. Scum will not be afraid to do it to avoid looking questionable. While town will not have the intent or motivation to lie, because they know it will cause issues (With the exception of gambits, or situations where someone is on heat and tried to do something to avoid getting mis-lim'd, neither of which was the case for me here.), in fact with the information we have, it would be easier for me to vote for RN, especially as I have already mentioned that I can read NM, and that I was talking to him.

Re-the day I hammered, I made it clear I wanted my thoughts out, which I did, and I agreed with the lim. There was not a situation to discuss my reads and risk a no-lim ever when the day had around 24 hours left. What is the goal of scum me setting that up?

Your logic is flowed for the mailman, if I was scum, then the traffic checking me doesn't do anything either, and for not claiming it as part of their roles, I think it is very simple:

Your predi. used it in a scummy way, using the mailman without the town's benefit, I already know the mailman was scum the moment they asked me to confirm recieving it in secret, I am 100% sure RN knew the same, which is why we both tried to softly get someone to claim it (or checking others to see if someone gets caught in a lie). E.g. me trying to quitely communicate with wiz if he was a mailman after seeing RN's results. and if you read RN, you will see a similar approach into softly trying to see if anyone will do the mistake of claiming that

In conclusion, none of your "scum reads" on me are really scummy, instead many are common "gotchas" that people talk about, yet in reality it is worthless if you look into the game context, and honestly that kind of reads, as I believed from years ago and I expressed in multiple games, is just an excuse for scum to appear as if they are trying. And almost never helps catch scum.

[ZZZX]

Regarding Blue/Ducky's slot all game. I wholeheartedly believe that they wanted me out because it was easy all game and when they repped in, I was literally

the

person that wolves needed out to win and he knew that and pushed me hard and right out the bat. Before I replaced in, my predecessor was an INCREDIBLY easy player to push, in fact Blue pushed nobody else really except my slot. Why would they do this, why would they bus this substantially.

There's also this quote from BlueSnake in 218 that is "If this flips green, kill Passenger next. If this flips red, kill me next" which is

clearly

them attempting to set up two miseliminations. Why would they openly ask to get chain-limmed if both of our slots were wolves. This is a slip up both not because it's clearly setting up two miselims but also because the logic doesn't even make sense. Why would they think this way, as a wolf why would they openly welcome a chain-lim of two mafias. And it's very clear that the general public thought it was two wolves in the neighbourhood, so if it genuinely WAS two wolves in the neighbourhood this would be borderline gamethrowing.

Then there's when ducky replaced in, he immediately went for me. He went for my jugular, and clearly from how I was speaking yesterday it wasn't planned to bus. It was clear I wanted ZZZ out and if it was planned for him to distance, wouldn't I then go with that and push him so I am distanced from him? No, instead I purposefully get him to push me while I don't do what's needed to profit from that and instead push away from him? when he's confirmed wolf too I kept to that. If you don't sense that this is a discrepancy for the world where Ducky and I are wolves then I really really have no hope at winning this game for Town.

Honestly, this entire post is just WIFOM

[ZZZX]

So, let's see...

Spoiler:

Like ducky flipping informed is such a kick in the teeth considering the whole tinfoil around double scum in the neighbourhood

Okay, so, my main theory of there being two scum but no Neighborhood is disproven—technically the Informed modifier allows for you and the worst to still be scum but Neighbors with them getting the extra information of there being a Village Backup Neighbor, but it also could just tell the worst that there's a Traffic Analyst (which is actionable knowledge considering the scumteam consisting of a Werewolf Messenger and a Werewolf Neighbor), meaning that it's not really important at this point any more. I hope I'll be able to see what the information was eventually, but that'll have to wait for the postgame.

Spoiler:

I would like to start by saying that I am extremely good and especially consistent at scum, I know that's probably going to come full swing and bite me in the ass but I am not one to make myself appear paired so obviously. Any scum worth their weight in gold would cut their losses and push their confirmed scum partner, but I didn't. I pushed against it because of the long-game (today, me vs zzz that I don't believe I'd win because of your reads), do you think scum of my caliber (I hate sounding this stuck up, please get my intention) would actually pair this hard on a scum partner that was 100% going out? I feel that's quite an insult to my skill to assume such a thing

I agree with getting rid of the worst far sooner being a reasonable choice of action for scum to take—it means we can get onto D4 sooner and you don't risk me or Random Nurse getting more suspicious of you.

Spoiler:

In 51 they are incredibly and overly cautious around placing their vote. They specify that it's a serious vote, in which why would Town ever need to disclaim that? I know, because they aren't Town and they're acting incredibly cautious as a way to save face. He also contradicts himself in this very post as he is saying that it's a genuine read with reason behind it BUT also only a vote because he has no other read elsewhere which at raw value is a logical contradiction. He then acts LAMIST (if you don't know, that means they're posting in a way that pretty much says "Look at me, I'm so townie", aka doing things for the image) with the E-2 statement which is both unneeded and just reeks that he's being overly self-conscious because he is afraid of harming is image.

I admit, while the part where they say it's a genuine read is likely not-indicative (since they had been accused of trying to sneak in a vote on me while joking earlier), the wording on the actual questioning of Not_Mafia felt very odd at the time, and it was the second time that they had been the second vote on someone in just 3 pages.

Spoiler:

In post 108ZZZ also has a completely different appearance vs his actions, especially surrounding him wanting to wait to discuss around EoD2 but as soon as he appears, he says his thoughts and then

immediately

hammers it without even waiting for anybody to hop on and discuss. It took him 30 minutes since he started catching up after wanting to discuss to his hammer. There is absolutely no way a Town has such a perspective contradiction.

Yeah, it was rather odd how ZZZX showed up to hammer. I know I've mentioned in the past how I feel ZZZX tends to vote often for how little they talk or explain themselves, and I still feel it's never been the right ratio for an invested Villager.

Spoiler:

ZZZ is also the only logical person to be the Mailman. There is no reason for a scum neighbour (which would be me in that world) to have both a Mailman AND a neighbour shot. What's the purpose? There's a Traffic Analyst, I assume it would be primarily to keep the scum outside of the neighbourhood to not be able to get red-checked as easily and the TA is purely a means to clear Town as opposed to incriminate Mafia. It is his problem that he did not claim it when a mass-claim came around, but if mafia neighbour had a mailman, would they not also claim that as it's part of their role? And claiming it does not incriminate them at all? (To clarify, it was my pred that claimed, not me).

It would be rather weird to have a Neighbor Messenger in general, especially in a set-up with a Traffic Analyst. Bianco seems to have some wacky and fun ideas, but I find that one player would be needlessly a bit overloaded.

RE: informed being that there is a traffic analyst: Knowing the current setup so far, it makes no sense for the scum to want to know there is a traffic analyst, and in fact this is a super intersting fact:

If informed meant knowing there is a traffic analyst, then scum will always claim, or at the very least soft claim mailman at some point, or mention it in any mail message. To get out of a potential guilty.

I disagree that getting rid of TW sooner was a better option for scum-Jackson, the way the game was, they were a prime suspect already, and it was already clearly a questionable situation (which both me and RN commented on, which could potentially be why Jackson decided to lay low and wait and see, until after 7 pages RN flipflopped enough into scum reading me, then they popped back in).

I already answered the phrasing being an old-school thing we did often. In fact before I sleep now I will show an example

I will admit, I have not been super invested into that game by that point, we had no info, we had quick hammered D1, and nothing was happened. To be frank, when I did finally read up and there was a day left, when I only asked for people not to hammer before I catch up and put my thoughts, I do not see what scum-me would ask to do that there, just to get attention on myself? For town-cred?

Finally, would a neighbor mailman, which basically have a non-influencal power be overloaded, but not a W.wolf Neighbor Informed complex Follower?

Actually, this came to my mind. Informed being that there is a traffic analyst, AND having a follower, discovering what action X does, which in that case would be basically just a doc-checker, instead of being informed of a backup neighbour, which takes no action so they cannot know it without the informed? Lets be real here for a moment.

[ZZZX]

I am sure I missed a lot of things, It is getting to the point where it is dangerous that I haven't went to sleep yet, so I will leave it at that and come back tomorrow moring.

Oh and before I forget, there is only one possible scum here from my point of view, and I am not afraid to show it.

VOTE: Jackson

[JacksonVirgo]

Will read now, and it's natural you go to he/him. My username has a male name after all but all things considered I do not care about that but I do appreciate that the host is onto that, that's super cool

[JacksonVirgo]

ii- Jackson was reading the thread, proven by post #604 where he commented on my reads, in the same page where you can see he was voted by TW, yet he has nothing to say except that post. He had nothing to comment on TW when it was put to a situation where only he or TW are the prime vote for the day. In fact he casually ignored the entire situation

I definitely skim-read the game but I wasn't at all invested at that point, the moment I felt pressure from someone I just disengaged because I really did not have the energy to fight against somebody.

iv- Jackson, despite the entire situation, despite it being a clear situation where either he or the worst is scum, DID NOT VOTE. Even once in the entire day phase. When it was Elim-Lo. Wait, correction, he did once, then immeditely unvoted when he found it is not the hammer. What?

A vote is meaningless brother without something to back it up, I prioritise a lot of things and a vote is the least important part of it to me. I'd rather convince people, or discuss with people and I feel the pl;acement of a vote is mostly always just a substitute for discussing where your reads are, a lesser one at that.

v- With the voting situation, me and wiz caused the lim to happen, when the day had 6 hours to go. In a situation where we had to lim or we lose. Jackson didn't seem to give a care in the world. Somehow all the motivation for the early hammer, which would result in some town-cred, is gone when the possibility of a no-lim day and an auto win occured.

Are you talking about yesterday? I was very clearly emotionally driven about the outcome of the day and you're saying I didn't have a care in the world? Are you joking?

[JacksonVirgo]

You will find it beyond interesting how many things Jackson mentions that you can see with the wolf we lim'd, whether it is from compound roles (even when we had no reason to believe that to exist), complex (only working on non-VTs), and other information that had no reason to really come out. And you can see the difference between that and wiz's post about informed, which ended up being the case, as that was built on a reasoning line that makes sense, having the backup neighbor and what not. meanwhile, you can tell he has information that we didn't have. If you read his posts with the knowledge now, just iso him, and you will see what I mean.

Knowing how normal games function is not TMI. I have put a lot of effort in making complex and fun normal setups, it's not anything to do with this game and you saying that it is is just blasphemous and weak. I gave you many examples as to why the PRs could work the way they have and you appear to be cherry picking the ones that make it seem like I knew more than I led everyone to believe which is not the case.

Wiz and Passenger both had moments like this regarding talking about an informed role. Does that mean they're both scum too? No of course not. It can't apply to one and not the other

[JacksonVirgo]

In normal situations, this doesn't make sense, why be focused on Wiz? You can have an assumption or an answer to that point, and it might be fair, if not for the method that it was done.

I was focusing on Wiz because I could foresee that the final day would end up against me due to everything that's happening. He said that if Worstie flipped neighbour I'd be pushed, I knew he was neighbour because I am a neighbour. So I knew that all things happening would end up him conf-biasing me out of the game and land into a loss. I've been very clear about this and you pulling this as "this doesn't make sense" is just dumb

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