Normal Game Changes (New Year 2024 Update)

[Random Nurse]

It is balanced, it's just unfair as fuck!

...if you're not looking at the whole picture.

[Gypyx]

I think a full bulletproof would also require around zero clearing power for town on top of that if you want my balance opinion (tm)

[Random Nurse]

-

[Gypyx]

let's not say more about it then (smile)

[TemporalLich]

Is Juggernaut-Immune Bulletproof Townie possible in Complex games?

very much so as the presence of a juggernaut/strongman is not necessarily guaranteed nor required against a bulletproof. what's more concerning is the existence of the infinite shot BP on a townie. complex allows some level of nonsense like this.

This makes me wonder how the Immune role actually works in Normal games

For example, I wonder how Juggernaut-Immune Doctor would work? Would it be a Doctor immune to Juggernaut kills (and only Juggernaut kills) or would it be a Doctor that can protect from Juggernaut kills (thus making Immune actually work like a modifier in this case)? I assume the former as Immune is a role and not a modifier.

[Gypyx]

Role immune is not a modifier, it only makes you immune to a certain role's actions and doesn't offer anything else

[TemporalLich]

that being said, if Normal games really needed a role with juggernaut protection I'd go with the Enchanter from BooneyToonz

pedit: yeah that is what I assumed with role-immune being a role

[Gypyx]

i think i like Juggernaut being the highest level of attack one can get in normals

It would be like having a modifier made to see through Ninja

[DragonEater70]

For example, I wonder how Juggernaut-Immune Doctor would work? Would it be a Doctor immune to Juggernaut kills (and only Juggernaut kills) or would it be a Doctor that can protect from Juggernaut kills (thus making Immune actually work like a modifier in this case)? I assume the former as Immune is a role and not a modifier.

In my understanding a Juggernaut-Immune Doctor, by a strict interpretation of how Immune works, would die if killed by a Juggernaut, but would not die if protected by another doctor and killed by a Juggernaut on the same night. It wouldn't affect their own protection at all. However if a regular Doctor protected a Juggernaut-Immune Townie, they would be able to protect them from the Juggernaut. Wait a minute I'm gonna crosspost this.

[TemporalLich]

Ninja-Immune would be even less resolvable: you'd either have a marginally powerful and extremely nuanced role that would require a Watcher to show its true potential or you'd have a very nuanced role similar to Juggernaut-Immune that would be immune to a modified factional kill but not the standard factional kill (and it would still be a question on whether that attempted kill would be Watchable or not).

it depends on if you interpret Factional Kill Modifier Role-Immune as immune to the modified factional kill or only the modifiers applied to that kill

[Gypyx]

I think the logical way to resolve it is to say that like, since Ninja / Juggernaut are a modifier on the factional, you're not really targeting them with the Ninja / Juggernaut role, henceforth Ninja/Jugg immune simply does nothing

[TemporalLich]

if Factional Kill Modifier Role-Immune could work as applying only to the modifiers on the kill (as per DragonEater70's interpretation in 158) you'd have a case for Modifier-Immune roles existing such as Strong-Willed-Immune, Weak-Immune, and Stealthy-Immune

I would say going that far is beyond questionably Normal and goes toward "Who told you this was Normal?" territory

[DragonEater70]

Well the thing is that Juggernaut isn't a modifier, it's a passive role (usually modified with the "activated" modifier). So Role-Immune can be immune to passive roles (for example, you could have an Ascetic-Immune Cop if you wanted), but you can't have an Immune that's immune to modifiers such as weak. At least that's my understanding per the wiki page, which I believe was created by the NRG.

[TemporalLich]

Well the thing is that Juggernaut isn't a modifier, it's a passive role (usually modified with the "activated" modifier). So Role-Immune can be immune to passive roles (for example, you could have an Ascetic-Immune Cop if you wanted), but you can't have an Immune that's immune to modifiers such as weak. At least that's my understanding per the wiki page, which I believe was created by the NRG.

Juggernaut and Ninja are currently considered active roles as far as I know.

I call those two roles the factional kill modifier roles because they work by modifying the factional kill.

I do want more factional kill modifier roles added to Complex Normal games however.

The factional kill modifier roles I think could be Complex Normal roles:

Enforcer - Combines the factional kill with a roleblock. Works well against roleblockers and security guards.
Racketeer - Combines the factional kill with a rolestop. Works well against doctors and watchers.
Vaporizer - Combines the factional kill with both a roleblock and a rolestop (alien ability).
Wraith - Is allowed to commute when performing the factional kill. Extremely powerful and would even stop an Enchanter from blocking them.

If there are any other factional kill modifier roles you think could be Complex Normal roles, I'd want to add them to the wiki.



as for derived roles being derived from modifiers - I'm not actually sure that derived roles can be derived from modifiers. Modifier-Finder would be straightforward if it was given a modifier to look for, Modifier-Enabler might be considered confusing as some may interpret Modifier-Enabler as enabling the modified role instead of just the modifier, and Modifier-Immune would create confusing and unresolvable roles.

[biancospino]

While I don't agree, the wiki sais that both Ninja and Juggernaut are

active

roles in normals. It also sais that "Anyone targeting an Immune player with the role they are immune to will have their action fail".

My interpretation is that, if both of those things are true, a Juggernaut targeting a Juggernaut-Immune, or a Ninja targeting a Ninja-Immune, with their beefed up factional kill should just fail (failing to kill), whereas they would have succeeded if they had used their normal factional kill (thou it's not particularly clear from the wiki if a, say, unmodified Ninja is even at all capable of opting to use their normal nk).
As they aren't classed as passives, the line "

A player immune to a passive role such as Ascetic is unaffected by that passive role

" isn't relevant, and as such a Ninja-Immune Watcher won't be able to see Ninjas etc. Whether a Watcher could be able to see a Ninja targeting, and failing to kill, a Ninja-Immune townie is not super clear thou.

If they

were

passives, on the other hand, then the

underlined

sentence would be the only relevant one, producing a vastly different interaction; as such, a Juggernaut-Immune would sumply be a player that, if they somehow gain a protection (e.g. by being BP, or being targeted by a Doc), would not allow a Juggernaut to pierce that protection; and a Ninja-Immune would be able to see Ninjas if they somehow have access to an action-investigative ability, but would not cause Ninjas killing them to be visible (since the ninja being invisible doesn't actually affect them)

[DragonEater70]

While I don't agree, the wiki sais that both Ninja and Juggernaut are active roles in normals.

Source? From what I can see in the wiki it doesn't say that at all.

Edit: Okay I see Ninja being classed as an active role. This is wrong though because Ninja doesn't have a usable ability unless modified.

[biancospino]

Well, in the Normal Version section,

A Juggernaut is considered to be an active role in Normal games

And an analogous line for Ninja

[DragonEater70]

Yeah you are correct. I don't think an intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune could exist as long as it's classed an active role, though.

[biancospino]

Which tbh is coherent with the sample PM. The ability is worded as the Juggernaut having access to an active superkill in addition to the factional kill, which however may only be used if no mafioso is using the factional kill.

Btw, the wording of the sample PM seems to imply that, if two Juggernauts were to be in the same mafia family, then

both

of them would be able to use their superkill, since it isn't actually the factional kill...

[DragonEater70]

I doubt that this is the intention. Probably needs to be fixed by the NRG/Ausuka, or a ruling provided.

[biancospino]

Yeah you are correct. I don't think an intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune could exist as long as it's classed an active role, though.

I stand that as it's currently written a Juggernaut would just straight-up fail to kill a Jugg-Immune when using the Jugg kill; but also I agree that it feels wrong, and maybe even a bit toxic

[biancospino]

I doubt that this is the intention. Probably needs to be fixed by the NRG/Ausuka, or a ruling provided.

Nevermind, I'm dumb. By reading it more accurately, it doesn't allow for that

[DragonEater70]

Yeah you are correct. I don't think an intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune could exist as long as it's classed an active role, though.

I stand that as it's currently written a Juggernaut would just straight-up fail to kill a Jugg-Immune when using the Jugg kill; but also I agree that it feels wrong, and maybe even a bit toxic

I'm not disputing that it could be interpreted that way by following the what's written to the letter. I'm just saying it feels, intuitively, wrong.

[TemporalLich]

factional kill modifier roles walk the line between active and passive

Having them be active roles makes more intuitive sense and avoids the problem of having to specify Activated Juggernaut or Activated Ninja to avoid the niche interaction of being unable to perform an unmodified factional kill (oh and factional kill modifier roles if they were considered passive roles would be the type of role where X-shot does not imply Activated!)

pedit: pretty sure "Each Night, if no other member of your faction is performing the factional kill action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will perform the factional kill. This action cannot be blocked or protected from." would imply that two juggernauts doesn't equal two super kills (if you really wanted two mafia super kills, strong-willed vigilante is what you're looking for)

ppedit: the problem with Juggernaut-Immune is that there's no real intuitively correct interpretation - I would think the intuitively correct interpretation of Juggernaut-Immune would be someone immune to Juggernaut kills completely.

[biancospino]

pedit: pretty sure "Each Night, if no other member of your faction is performing the factional kill action, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will perform the factional kill. This action cannot be blocked or protected from." would imply that two juggernauts doesn't equal two super kills (if you really wanted two mafia super kills, strong-willed vigilante is what you're looking for)

Yeah, my eyes completely skipped over the word "factional" in the second sentence for some reason, my bad.

What happens if two Juggs try to use their superkill at the same time, and one of them just happens to be roleblocked? One could argue that, since "you will perform the factional kill" is dependent on the action not being interfered with, then in fact the roleblocked one did not perform the factional kill, and so the action submission is legal (thou the mafia team almost surely couldn't be able to know that it would've been legal) I'm not saying that anyone in good faith will interpret it in this way. I'm mostly half-joking here.

Anyway, Ninja-Immune seems to be even more difficult to parse. Suppose Ninja targets Ninja-Immune, and Tracker targets Ninja. Does Tracker see Ninja? Surely Ninja fails, but it's not clear whether the failure extends to invalidating the innate invisibility of the Ninja's kill