Mafia Reunion | Postgame

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Radical rat

I suppose I can throw a kitchen sink if needed but suffice it to say the push against kitty was scummy and RR needs to burn for it

[ActionDan]

@theta

Perhaps form a reasonable a opinion as to anyone in the game's towniness or scuminess.

[ActionDan]

Do you still think bianco is scummy FL?

[ActionDan]

@FL. Well you did go off the deep end end of D1 and now you are calmer despite the ludicrous claim.

Bianco is not someone I think is scummy but they could be intentionally holding back.

[ActionDan]

I mean the biggest flaw in DV's role to me is the fact there isn't any notion of what happens if he just survives till endgame and doesn't meet his 1st condition. Usually there's some kind of clause baked in.

@maestro what I mean is that FL displayed significant discouragement in playing the game of mafia not that he was talking all crazy like

I am part of friendship group.

[ActionDan]

im indifferent with RR. Kitty push was bad, but so was the NK15 push.

It's also super bold of RR to try and mass claim real names early like that.

Disagree. It's very benign. The whole accountability spiel is a buffer against such 1st order accusations like what Drew ended up antagonizing him with.

Yes there's more people. I happen to like my group though. Is conversion last on NAR?

[ActionDan]

I'm happy for the rest of the hood to enjoy sweet anonymity.

Am quite curious to see what my other scumread has to say with a hardy RR wagon present

[ActionDan]

but you both clearly wanted hood members to claim

I would like everyone else to answer this.

Do you think that RR clearly wanted the Friendship Group to claim?

No but if maestro is correct that was a subtle attempt to influence a reveal of members then it would be clear scum wanted that info! This is mafia we take an inch and assume a mile, sometimes correctly.

For me this is not the main plot. I understand the point

[ActionDan]

We have no factional ability.

RR is an intelligent well mannered person, but I do believe they are scum.

I've said more in friendship PT about the topic and more people but will leave this to sizzle a bit for half a day as my other suspicions solidify

[ActionDan]

HURT: DV

[ActionDan]

Felt that one did you

[ActionDan]

Right so in the words of David wasserman "I've heard enough"

Or specifically not heard enough. I am pretty sold on Aureal being scum in addition to rat.

There has yet to be a word about 5 votes popping up on them when rat became a townread page 3 and as far as I can tell I see no reason Aureal wouldn't have maintained that until now. So to me I sense an awkward reluctance to comment on RR or any wagoner. The pivot to Roden has obviously fallen flat now.

Her D1 was not stellar either. The aforementioned town read on RR was not deserved. The page 8 posting for postings sake was unnatural. The causal suggestion of wanting to yeet lurkers when her scum candidates of DV and Bianco existing is a cognitive disconnect. Not fighting harder for the Titus fade end of Day 1 to me was apathetic. Obviously circumstances eod were not ideal but you can rally.

[ActionDan]

Cool he gets to win and we will see if game ends immediately like it would have in all other rh games with self aligned 3rd parties

[ActionDan]

I'm gonna be at work. Let's not discuss this further

[ActionDan]

@1144

You have had tangible suspicions throughout the game. And, if you really want to pursue being unable to convert any into votes, then you're a slot that ought to not continue living anyway. I am able to read between lines in your posting history, I hope others are able to do the same

[ActionDan]

@1144

You have had tangible suspicions throughout the game. And, if you really want to pursue being unable to convert any into votes, then you're a slot that ought to not continue living anyway. I am able to read between lines in your posting history, I hope others are able to do the same

"Indecisive town should go boom"

VOTE: ActionDan

If this were my only metric Theta might be buried right now. I am often indecisive in games so I am capable of some empathy. I can be discerning too.

Cut by working through DV win

[ActionDan]

I will also try to protect friendship group if need be. I am privy to more info than Joe shmoe.

Much as you might wish it, NK15's role does not auto imply scum in FG, and it certainly does not specifically imply traitor cut off from the group. It can simply be a fancy conversion check, and that's indeed how I see the flavor hinting at as well.

Theta is an OK candidate. There are a decent number of posts from them I can see coming from town. I do not see the intransigence concerning DV all game as particularly scummy (though certainly a possible track to take as scum). Their inability to form an independent scum read all game and not particularly putting too much effort into trying is my gripe. I still think aureal / rat are more likely to flip.

Aureal being bold, crudely dismissing my arguments, voting me in response, is hardly a townie response.

[ActionDan]

Rat's being voted among other reasons, because 220 223 and 226 taken together are egregiously scummy.

[ActionDan]

My pm is after conversion but leaves room for false positives, such as DV's claim.

Sorry if missed it, but have you confirmed with mod specifically now that DV is flipped that his name in your list is a false positive? My instinct is to not agree with that decision but the mod's word trumps all ofc

[ActionDan]

Rat's being voted among other reasons, because 220 223 and 226 taken together are egregiously scummy.

What's wrong with 226?

I'll acknowledge that particular push on Kitty was confirmation bias fuelled by an erroneous interpretation of his words, but I stand by everything I said in 226.

In the context of you pushing kitty or any scum, that quoted reason is not one scum could ever stand on. I don't really think FL's question has a correct answer since scum can do whatever they want or feel might help them, either by trying to garner names or stay the hell out of it.

Also the last part is just false. Scum would never flip a coin if they could target whom they wanted.

Again, the premise of the push against Kitty in the first place was scummy, not just the answer to that question from FL

[ActionDan]

There well might be scum or a conversion in our PT. I'm still not convinced this HAS to be the case.

I came into today thinking that Theta might be the way to go as a compromise candidate that could easily be a hit. Despite that incredibly self-damaging rush EoD2 while we were all still talking I still lean town on both maestro and flavor. But we all could use to take time today to actually scumhunt.

I do have some questions about your passive info gathering part of your role. Can you spell out the pieces of info you started with and gained each night. I want to make sure it aligns with what my role implies about conversion flavor

[ActionDan]

Speaking of which Titus should have fresh names for us

[ActionDan]

Oh I was cut like 5 times. FL

[ActionDan]

Hmm so my role would not stop yours from getting a flavor result on me. Also the flavor of my own role implies the conversion flavor is about spreading the love and joy of mafia. I am very much not about that. Unsure that goes into addict territory but I suppose it's plausible enough

[ActionDan]

If it makes you feel better I get paranoid too, but I tend not to say it.

Pedit. Oh that's nice.

Friendship group really really really likes to keep very watchful friendly eyes on each other

[ActionDan]

I am still of the opinion, with even more evidence now, that friendgroup doesn't have a convert or groupscum. Maybe cakez or maestro started as a traitor at best (and really I don't think maestro did) and yes this is a real possibility. I think Drew rught now is incontrovertible as town

[ActionDan]

I think it's already been said who the members are. But to answer your question. 4

[ActionDan]

I am tending to believe bianco's role being town. Despite the association with coffee and addicts it doesn't make flavor sense as a conversion tool.

I have absolutely no doubt tomith is town. And currently does not sound at all like he was converted.

Gamma I thought was town because Celebloki's first 2 and only posts struck a town nerve with me, posting thereafter is not special one way or another.

Titus I argue town primarily because no one makes sense as a partner with her to me due to how D1 went down. But I also liked her D2 posting, and whereas we have a lot of roles that deal with conversions town doesn't really have info roles to actually help find scum (nk15 notwithstanding)

I don't believe scum would target Roden n2 for conversion. And I don't see scum roden not knowing his role which would make the D2 watcher reveal if he were converted a bad move. So group scum or bust. Leaning bust. I don't have tangible reasons to think that though.

[ActionDan]

All this leads me back to aureal / theta unless I want to throw cakez to the wolves which I do not

[ActionDan]

Day 2 Count III

Radical Rat (

E-2

) - ActionDan, Doctor Drew, SirCakez, biancospino, Maestro
Theta Alpine (3) - Titus, Flavor Leaf, Radical Rat
Aureal (1) - Gamma Emerald
ActionDan (1) - Aureal

Not Voting

- Theta Alpine, Roden, Thomith

I think there’s scum on Rat here.

Maybe. This is mostly FG following my lead though. Do you, as aureal does, think more than one original scum in FG?

[ActionDan]

Aureal why don't you give a list of names that fit into your unique categories

[ActionDan]

In fact an updated reads list from everyone would go a long way

[ActionDan]

Drew town. If scum he would not have revealed how FL got no result on me. Also he's town

[ActionDan]

I am tongue in cheek referencing your "dont fade" "this person exists" "this person doesn't exist" buckets. Feel free to give a readslist the more conventional way

[ActionDan]

Cakez just called you town. Oddly cakez has given more reads here and in our PT than most.

[ActionDan]

I have some thoughts whirling around but will post after sleep.

I think we can wait a day for massclaim. I disagree that dance party ought to be used after it. It can just be used

[ActionDan]

Confirming FG has full claimed to each other. There's a rather obvious role theme to us.

[ActionDan]

Why is Theta a townread for you again.

[ActionDan]

I'm going to assume this isn't a forced converted scum play and you just stubbornly ignoring a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

[ActionDan]

We've all claimed (and I first), and we all (aside from 1 of us) have roles that fit a theme of targeting within group and directly punishing scum from trying to convert within our group.

[ActionDan]

It seems like damage control because dealing with you in this manner feels incredibly asinine as your line of thought and questioning reeks of confirmation bias to justify your original suspicion

[ActionDan]

I don't mind claiming my role at this point. I directly protect against conversions. There is abother role that does punish scum worse than denying the conversion

[ActionDan]

Drew you failed to mention the full context of our exchange in the PT.

I said I assumed you targeted maestro because you didn't claim your N1 target and as I had claimed I targeted maestro n1 that your claim wouldn't add useful info.

[ActionDan]

Cakez was my n2 target btw.

[ActionDan]

@FL

First I was not aware of other roles at the time. 2nd I thought it was likely (and still do) all of FG was town. I still wouldn't want scum trying to gun for them even if I could protect 1/3. Nor did I think it my place to reveal them.

[ActionDan]

I don't mind claiming my role at this point. I directly protect against conversions. There is abother role that does punish scum worse than denying the conversion

And again, if this role claim is correct......how did you know that maestro and cakez weren't converted?

Yes, I did prevent any actions from outside the FG from targeting you, but you didn't know that at the time.

And if you are town and being legit, you would not know that your action was successful or not.

Yet you somehow KNEW that neither maestro and cakez were not converted.

How?

???

[ActionDan]

It is frustrating to deal with you. You either do not seem to understand my argument or don't want to. Leaning the former but dont know how to explain to you any better

[ActionDan]

For nk15 I was think8ng on this for a bit because its made no sense to me no matter how I sliced. But what if addicts can talk to each other but not group scum. Then it works whether or not a traitor addict started in fg or not

[ActionDan]

It is frustrating to deal with you. You either do not seem to understand my argument or don't want to. Leaning the former but dont know how to explain to you any better

Scratch that drew is town. Claim and timing would not have happened otherwise. I will keep reminding myself of this

[ActionDan]

Also Dan, one other thing.

You said you targeted Maestro with your action N1, as you put it you 100% know they were not converted.........then why assume that it was my action that prevented them from being potentially converted?

When did I say that? I asked if you targeted maestro because it made sense you would since you never claimed a n1 target and I had already claimed to have targeted maestro n1. Thus making your n1 claim close to irrelevant (yes I could have been rbed but that's not something I even considered)

[ActionDan]

I have 3 percent power our family is driv9ng back from ab all day event. Will be here in an hour or 2

Pedit

That 100% was for effect to say instead of just guessing based on play I had a role action to support. Mia culpa for not thinking of rbs at that moment in time

[ActionDan]

Also Dan, one other thing.

You said you targeted Maestro with your action N1, as you put it you 100% know they were not converted.........then why assume that it was my action that prevented them from being potentially converted?

When did I say that? I asked if you targeted maestro because it made sense you would since you never claimed a n1 target and I had already claimed to have targeted maestro n1. Thus making your n1 claim close to irrelevant (yes I could have been rbed but that's not something I even considered)

"When did I say that?" Refers to the 2nd half. Pretty sure I never assumed it was specifically your action and your action alone at any point that was the cause of Maestro being not converted. I only assumed you actioned on Maestro N1 before you claimed that in fact it was me. This was because your non-mention of it up to that point was due to it being redundant as I had effectively claimed the same

[ActionDan]

The issues are clearly coming from things beyond what the night actions are. I picked up on that not even being that thread.

This started from Drew thinking I was spewing TMI from assuming he targeted Maestro N1 because he thought I was group scum that unsuccessfully converted Maestro. Then he thinks in the FG PT I posted to the wrong PT because I transitioned apropos of nothing about a different topic about FL

[ActionDan]

Why would Dan assume it was me that stopped the possible conversion of Maestro if Dan already targeted them with their role?

I assumed nothing of the sort. My question in the PT to you was the equivalent of "You targeted Maestro N1, right?"

[ActionDan]

Anyway this is kinda distracting aside I suppose from everyone else getting a taste of FG, roles, inside knowledge etc.

I remember wanting to ask Theta for other reads / thoughts aside from their Town read of myself. So there it is unless I missed something.

I need to read up

[ActionDan]

That's quite the leap in logic there.

That's also totally not what drew is complaining about and you should know that since you have reading comprehension FL

[ActionDan]

That's quite the leap in logic there.

That's also totally not what drew is complaining about and you should know that since you have reading comprehension FL

youre trying to paint this like i'm twisting it or purposefully misrepping it, and that's just not true.

im just saying things about how i see it.

Things as you see them must be quite warped then because its quite simple for both our perspectives. Drew's is just ludicrous.

Order of events:

D2 I claim I know 100% maestro is not converted. Lots of hinting of role including that were I to flip first over nk15 people would be less inclined to think scum is in FG. And that I target in friendgroup and that those ae my preferred targets anyway

D3
I claim cakez Is not converted via a n2 action

Drew claims his n2 action in thread to explain FL No result.

I fully claim role and flavor and ask for a Massclaim

Drew claims role and flavor.

I ask for Drew's n1 target, specifically inquiring if it's maestro also.

End.

[ActionDan]

There are like three different angles going on here lol.

I just don't know who I trust more out of Flavor and Titus.

Dan distrusts Flavor

, but Flavor trusts Dan, and Flavor distrusts maestro......who trusts Dan

Titus distrusts Cakez, but Titus has no comment on the recent happenings apparently

this has not been shown in the main game thread, so the fact it's happening behind closed doors feels like it's meant to get the rest of you to shade me.

I don't know where this comes from. I have only called you town in FG

[ActionDan]

But yeah personally I think you guys are throwing if you are town so I wash my hands of this game.

I have only speculated you are Finley in fg. Because you didn't give your n1 Flavor cop target when you claimed.

[ActionDan]

I mean it wasn't rocket science. I claimed my targets and that I knew they weren't converted. The only thing I preserved was the slim possibly I could be a cop. I made it formal after Drew's claim in thread

[ActionDan]

like on top of that, NK15's role implies it might even be a group scum in there not the traitor.


and that seems like a a way for scum to know at least a select few names that they could convert and know who they converted at the risk of having to get punished by aiming in there.

Drew claimed an action that rolestops actions (i have confirmation of this one). Dan stops conversions. Assuming it's Maestro that Punishes if scum convert based on Cakez being the one attacked.

That doesn't make sense. But Dan can't have been converted either?

Drew, you stop all actions that come towards your target? This means 2 of you can stop conversions within that, and the other of you punish scum if they converse.

that's not an all town group.

It could even be Group Scum + Traitor.

If Dan is scum, they are always Group scum here.

This is a leap in logic. Also I'm pretty sure I asked this question of you whether there could be 2 scum in FG as aureal suggests earlier. I'll take this as an answer.

You are deciding there is likely 2 scum in fg because... you think the group was designed for a group scum so scum target in it and deservedly get foiled? Add in traitor just b/c. To me that seems cynical when there are at least two other names confirmed that would do the same thing if targeted plus other claimed roles which try to stop conversions. The only thing thats special about us is that the majority of us target ourselves which imo has obvious flavor implications. Minus 3rd party this game is 11-3 split with conversions. Town barely has power aside maybe Titus maybe yourself.

I will grant you nk15 role seems like on a surface level would imply PT using scum, but their are perfectly valid explanations for this and it has been discussed.

So yes this "there are 2 scum" in fg is a leap.

As is your new found assertion that I'm scummy. Where did that one come from?

[ActionDan]

So...Drew is just scum reading you because he thought that you soft claiming your role meant you were actually spewing TMI

Wow

This isn't it either.

He's claiming TMI because he has it in his head I should not have assumed his n1 target was maestro. I still rightly can't say why. He thinks Maestro was unsuccessfully converted by me, and I spewed that by believing his role had something to do with it.

\_o_/

[ActionDan]

I suppose you didn't say that though it certainly feels this way with the hard push of me plus maestro. You know what I retract my assertion. Partially. I do think it's cynical still. Why must there be some wolf in the hen house when it looks just as equally like a group of friends trying not be converted and sticking together. Imo this is a case of your reads informing your logic. As mine are informing me about the group dynamic.

You are welcome to explain where I became scummy to you though.

[ActionDan]

You know what Drew's role's stipulation/limitation defeats the purpose of a group scum converter inside fg as much as nk15 implies one.

We aren't fading cakez.

[ActionDan]

The current gamestate is murder and dismantle FG until you hit scum. Anything is better.

I read aureal, and I a tadddddd softer on that. Still irked by thoughts like "Dan is an unimpressive player" while not particularly doing much themselves by their own admission d1. Tiny bit hypocritical.

And "he's aggressively leading fades". That's my prerogative if I think someone is scum. If you don't like it attack my argument which wasn't done (it was rather simple).

The vote on me still smells of OMGUS.

But a couple of towny things; attempting to point a logical disconnect in titus's posting looked more a town argument than scum because I just don't think scum would bother.

It is true and correctedly pointed out that Titus posting d2 was better than d1.

The fact maestro is a town read is unexpected for scum in aureal's position.

Ofc why Thomith is a null read is questionable. Why Thomith would not be a universal town for anyone is questionable to be blunt. That's a freebie.

Theta being a townread because of agreeing with their mech reasoning feels a little hollow but then again I was happy to townread celebolki for 2 posts.

I think it is reasonable to scum read bianco then null basket for role.

[ActionDan]

Me neither. I think aureal's opinion on it is OK to have

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Cakez

Reasons
1) Cakez feels scummy
2) His claim to be on the list was out of nowhere
3) If wrong, we confirm a real name that isn't group scum.
4) There seems to be a lot of resistance to Cakez without defending the play.

I'll engage you on this a bit.

I think cakez feels more towny than null to me. His flitty votes don't feel part of any scum agenda or particularly scummy in general. His posts have never particularly struck me as scummy. The only questionable thing from my memory was the nk15 vote as at the time I definitely thought you were the better fade and I never sympathized with any nk15 votes in general.

I'm not sure by how much but of I were to take your role at face value the probability that either name from the first set is town increases over random chance in the first place. Even if you get a confirmed name conversions poison the trust of the other. So a fade for info isn't as valuable as it could be and it should be dismissed.

Re 4) For me another aspect is his behavior role and membership in the FG group which I view positively.

Perhaps we can go over point 1 a bit more to see who shares and doesn't share that opinion and why. I can go over cakez' posts and see if I see anything more material to boast my assessment

[ActionDan]

FG = Friendship Group, the PT of me/cakez/Maestro/Drew (and Nk15)

[ActionDan]

I bet there's more of a chance our 5 man group is all town rather than a random 5 man group out of 14.

[ActionDan]

is it possible Dan converted Maestro N1?

Couldnt have happened, it would crush Drew's raison d'etre for me to be scum that you've seemingly latched unto

[ActionDan]

I really don't think the FG is all town at this point

a five person neighborhood being all town in a game where they have an internal traffic analyst would be mod trolling
and normally i would make an exception for cult games but if recruits are traitors then same logic applies

OK what are your thoughts about whom that person or persons could be?

[ActionDan]

is it possible Dan converted Maestro N1?

Couldnt have happened, it would crush Drew's raison d'etre for me to be scum that you've seemingly latched unto

I feel like that isn’t the reason I’ve been saying I’m leaning into scum being in the FG, i feel my read is actually much more layered than Drew’s reasoning with that, mainly because Drew has that one reason, where that one reason is a possibility and a layer in collection of layers that I’ve presented

Ofc your answers are more complex. But it annoys me that you treat Drew's as legit. That one should have been tossed. I get you're more upset I'm unconcerned about there being scum in a 5 man group in its current state. And that I feel like you think I'm inexplicably defending maestro

[ActionDan]

The entire FG group has our names confirmed publicly by the mod, so we know who we are. Maybe I read your post too fast but I'm not understanding.

[ActionDan]

Oh you're talking in a perspective in which I'm a converter lol

[ActionDan]

I'm being facetious with that quoted post. In parroting back the nonsensical reason drew gave for suspecting me in the first place

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Theta

Man that is quite the ugly vc.

Not really thrilled with this vote, but not as comfortable with voting aureal as I was and not seeing better options.

[ActionDan]

Their response will be limited to one option.

I agree they haven't said anything of note for 2 days when time is getting short and the vote on drew was a placeholder without real intent afaik

[ActionDan]

Enthusiasts is the faction name.

Addicts are still Enthusiasts as much as Traitor can still be Mafia.

Agreed. I see no reason a role pm can't read something like "you are an addict (purple)" / "you are an addict, a member of the Enthusiasts"

[ActionDan]

D2 everyone thought I was town. I pointed my finger at RR and a large amount of people hopped on.

Not sure if FL is directly accusing me of being cult recruiting mastermind or not

[ActionDan]

My one concern is maybe they are hiding behind a town Dan, but it feels like so much.

Dan is being so logical/town reading me and it makes me feel like they’re trying to flip me to stop heat on them.

Oh I've written you off at this point.

[ActionDan]

I discredit cases, opinions, etc that aren't true.

I continue to think both of you are town. Both other FG members who have full context (and I have supplied as much as I can publicly here) have publicly and privated called your assertion in particular Drew, nonsense.

I am going very much enjoy seeing aureal try to make the possible case that me/cakez are group scum.

[ActionDan]

Regardless, I think Hu Tao should claim their Role and abilities. Can leave Real Name out of it, though.

Currently who do you think is more likely to be scum. Hu or me? Or will it depend on their next post?

[ActionDan]

Sigh

What are you guys thinking with the Hu votes?

Why are Hu Tao votes off to you? I feel they’re semi warranted right now

Because I think she's almost certainly the traitor and thus we don't need to flip her to win. I'd rather catch the two we need to catch. I'll be rather grumpy if we're on a winning path here but delay it on an irrelevant flip and I get hit with a conversion with that extra time they get.

Man this is an incredibly scummy post. I get aureal clearly wants to railroad me into the ground, which fine, but to ignore facets of reality to do so is comical.

Worried about a conversion when we have a dance party (that better be used tonight)

Worried about them in particular being a conversion target in this gamestate when a good number of people think they could well be scum.

[ActionDan]

Does that align with your flavor fl?

[ActionDan]

Hu Tao please claim your role name and how the cop works exactly

[ActionDan]

I think Cakez is a convert

Why do you think that in particular? Think what you want of his play bit its been very consistent from d1 onwards. (Also he was not not converted n2)

[ActionDan]

Yes sorry

[ActionDan]

I think Cakez is a convert

Why do you think that in particular? Think what you want of his play bit its been very consistent from d1 onwards. (Also he was not not converted n2)

I think he was converted N1 and explained why a few days ago. Is there an argument for him being group scum?

Oh I'll take look. I certainly would never argue group scum as I think he's town

[ActionDan]

@FL Good enough for me

@Roden

What's awkward about it? I think the same of the entire FG group. I dont think thats unusual. I gave a more detailed appraisal of cakez in particular when commenting to Titus in post 1759

People think we are scum for incrediblely spurious reasons. Aureal's is simply that day 2 I led a fade on RR and cakez followed. That's it. Barely any other engagement about that topic or anything else. You already have heard Drew talk about me, cakez, maestro. FL thinks maestro and me are scum with maybe a dash of cakez scum afaik. Titus thinks cakez is scum and unsure about her opinion of me. On the whole not too large a number, more outsized voices imo

[ActionDan]

VOTE: Aureal

Let's just make this a vote between me and aureal today.

I have no inclination to vote anyone else aside from Theta at this point who's only read aside from mechanical surety is a town read on myself, which is great and all but its end of day 3. Also if Theta is scum that only increases likelihood aureal is too.

[ActionDan]

1) railroading may not be the best description I admit. You certainly do not apply or offer any critical thought towards your scum read of me/cakez but do not fail to push us all the same. If there is a synonym for that I would gladly substitute my word choice. Yes you dont have a strong push because there is not much of a case to be made. As fat as rat is concerned I did push him strongly but I don't remember rabidly crying for his immediate fade. We were talking and then the next moment he got majority.

2) That's really just not an immediate worry concerning Tomith. Even if you don't have him as the obvious town that he is, not activating dance party outs him immediately. additionally thinking about your conversion more than one night ahead is a bit self-indulgent and to me not natural.

3) yes that's what I'm implying. I didn't need FL info to figure conversations were tied to names in the first place and I'm sure by now scum have at least some partial info on tying some names to some players and I'm sure they'll have a better option than you. And scum care because they would like to maximize their winning chances just like you proclaim to care to try to get groupscum which you think is me/cakez the context that this spiel was tied to.

I see cuts

[ActionDan]

He said we'd all be thrown in a qt at night. Is that nott confirmation?

[ActionDan]

Not yet. We've all full claimed in FG, so let Theta claim first before hearing ours

[ActionDan]

Well you didn't mention that in your point 2) but the way he claimed and his play up to that point leaves me rather confident he was true claiming and is town. At least then.

[ActionDan]

See even you aren't certain he's still town apparently

If he's not town now he isn't gonna frigging use it, doesn't matter if he gets scumread for it

Still an irrational fear to espouse. And I still think he's town because the random chance he was converted last night is slim. And I don't dwell on that and who might be converted is a distraction.

[ActionDan]

Maestro/Dan/Thomith/Titus seems like a possible solve

Remind me again of your hypothesis me/maestro of who is what. Or hypotheses.

[ActionDan]

FL is assuming I'm scum and trying to deduce who my buddies are or what makes sense with my posts and behavior alone.

[ActionDan]

And it's clear theirs no way to deprogram him at this point.

I am willing to compromise on Theta only. In an extreme circumstance, maestro, solely because of role.

Pedit. Yes I think FL is town. I have always thought that.

[ActionDan]

I am going to reiterate that maestro if scum is traitor and only traitor. I am not voting there unless I have to.

[ActionDan]

I have work all day starting soon. Was in the process of rereading Maestro. This game is going to be lost because of the nurturing of the idea that scum one or multiple is in FG. Just promise you never touch FG after my town flip thanks.

Ok Theta claim is in.

Claims remaining

Maestro 1-shot outside FG neighborizer.

Cakez: FG only watcher

[ActionDan]

OK who targets by name if anyone.

[ActionDan]

FL have you ever asked what happens if you hit an addict to the mod?

[ActionDan]

There are already multiple names out with Roden/Hu Tao, and then it's confirmed Cakez is one of Blair or Nova.

Scum obviously know their own names + any conversion names they sent.

I'm less sure on if scum have a real name cop now. I think the fact that the FG has Mod Confirmed Real Names implies scum is in there, and there's the FG Mini game of scum trying to convert within there with the opportunity of knowing who their partners would be, or taking a risk going outside of the FG.

Amazing you say this now BTW. Turns out, all the rather juicy powerful town roles happen to be outside FG group. What does that tell you?

[ActionDan]

Aureal, if town, clearly has their head in the sand, so its no surprise they can't let it go and just concede you are town.

Pedit I sure did aureal.

People really have an aversion to the obvious. Like their apparently being 5 info roles but fading the only 1st to claim doc is a good idea. Granted my protective duties are shared partially by drew

[ActionDan]

Okay I will claim. I am a form of a cop, but i lose my cop ability when im visiited. I was visited already and lost it. Only result I have is N1 and I have roden is town.

Were you informed you lost the ability d2?

[ActionDan]

Seems like a perfectly sound argument FL

[ActionDan]

Your argument is as bad as Drew's was against me and it shows you arent disseminating info being provided in thread. I'm poking FL because it amuses me.

1) we know each others names in FG. At the time of the outing of cakez name from maestro, maestro thought cakez was scummy. I can't say why he outed it aside from frustration and or not caring.

2) I disagree that we can assert that there's more likely to be scum in the list of 3 than not. Nor that we can divine anything about the alignment of someone adhering to that assumption or not.

So basically your case can be tossed.

[ActionDan]

I will hopefully finish up my own read of maestro tonight so I'll let you know what conclusions I come to

[ActionDan]

No no I read it.

Like if want to say that you believe Maestro is scummy because he outed that cakez name was in your original list of 3, that's valid criticism. But the rest isn't

[ActionDan]

VOTE: maestro

I didn't finish my read. I can't allow myself to be faded over him. The only rational I have is his role doesn't fit the FG theme.

I will be back awake in 4 hours

[ActionDan]

uh well
if you are not already cult then you can get converted whenever cult feels like
if you are the original traitor then cult now can figure out not to target you
if there are any other powers which target off of real names instead of player names they now know who they are targeting plus any information tied to your real name would then be known

i am left thinking about what your claim means for your alignment
might have to wait for flavor leaf to give a summary of your flavor and see if that lines up with your claimed role

what even is the point of this post? Theta feels like an overlooked scum slot

Theta is the slot Dan's trying to get us to compromise on, so I'm not comfortable with Theta today.

Yeah, if Theta was scum I doubt I'd be getting all the heat that I am since I'm like the only one who's been townreading her for some time.

This sounds insane.

[ActionDan]

I'm not sure who to vote here

Answer the question earlier: were you informed you lost your ability D2?

[ActionDan]

You can vote me if you want btw, don't feel guilty if you need to.

[ActionDan]

I'm enjoying the performance at least

[ActionDan]

I still think there's a decent sized chance maestro wants to be the Sacrificial lamb. Which I appreciate if so.

O guess not.

Traitor or group scum? I would have guessed traitor

[ActionDan]

Aureal and Dan both had four votes each in the VC, and then Maestro received two votes

Did Maestro mistake one of their names as Maestro's own and legitimately thought they were at E-1?

No maestro is thinking votes on me currently could easily transfer to votes on him

[ActionDan]

I want to go back to sleep. Vote me if you wish for my stoicism or w.e

I've already taken a bite of this baked crow I made, but there's still more to share

[ActionDan]

that extra bit of info supports drews role being real
though surprised there is not more role blocking then

?

[ActionDan]

Drew can't target outside FG. There's a preponderance of evidence anyway that his role is real.. wouldn't you know you targeted me and were blocked

[ActionDan]

FL what's your feeling. Had day gone on as usual would votes switch to maestro or stay on me?

[ActionDan]

Thank you for your honest opinion. I would tend to think maestro went this way to have his fun but if not then there is the possibility he would predict this might happen as added bonus.

[ActionDan]

Drew can't target outside FG. There's a preponderance of evidence anyway that his role is real.. wouldn't you know you targeted me and were blocked

that

wait so then

is there even a role that can necessitate thomith not being able to be protected

Oh I see. Not as such with the claims.

[ActionDan]

Maestro claimed in FG that he was 1-shot neighborizer to a non-FG member.

[ActionDan]

They claimed no one. Both cakez and maestro forgot to action

[ActionDan]

Cakez watches FG members

[ActionDan]

Who did you try to target?

Pedit

I'll be close to personna non grata tomorrow depending if you flip traitor or group scum so I'm always a backup if bianco or Hu Tao don't show.

[ActionDan]

Alright, Dan.

I’m gonna be real with you

You hear that Maestro and Cakez both didn’t submit an action, you see NK15’s role, you see the names all being posted for all of you

How do you Occam’s Razor that all town are in there + go out to defend them that hard

I have always included the possibility of one original traitor in FG even though I absolutely thought it was more likely all of us were town. On that I have been proven wrong. Currently I still believe maestro will flip traitor and that's the last of scum in FG. I believe I said earlier that in an extreme circumstance I would compromise on maestro. And that's not because he didn't action but because his role was out of sync with the rest of us.

I explained Nk15's role (away) by saying traitors probably get to talk with each other. I still think that's the case.

Let me counter by asking you what you make of Drew's role if their were group scum in FG. He targets FG members only and blocks non FG members only. That doesn't make sense if group scum exists in FG

[ActionDan]

As I said before I really don't mind eating this delicious crow together.

[ActionDan]

There are like 5 plus info roles you can't imagine a straight up doc? I also claimed this role if not completely outright 1st.

And Drew's role is not stronger. Arguably the the conversion is the main thing and imo it's more valuable to not block town roles (again presumably 5 info roles) than whatever non converting scum power there is.

[ActionDan]

Yes either maestro was protecting me or appearing to give the illusion of that.

[ActionDan]

I mention that case to say those are the two choices wether I'm town or scum. No other theory works assuming maestro is playing for advantage. (I still think he wanted to have fun mostly)

[ActionDan]

Also @FL do you think as the "head" of the snake maestro would tie himself to me so obviously, that I would expose myself so blatantly with pointing to rat, or continuing to defend maestro and cakez so earnestly?

[ActionDan]

I got no sleep. This is what mafia does

[ActionDan]

I'm tempted to hammer and vote myself. Should I LF? I'm putting the entire burden of this game on you if I do

[ActionDan]

My question remains, maestro will hammer me.

I have no particular insight into who scum is ATM. Much less likely to be aureal now. There's no way all the info roles are town though. 0 chance.

Hu Tao needs to claim if they lost ability d2. Bianco needs to clarify if they auctioned D1. FL at some point say if you flavor copped anyone n1.

[ActionDan]

VOTE: ActionDan

I'm tempted to hammer and vote myself. Should I LF? I'm putting the entire burden of this game on you if I do

UNVOTE:

If Dan is town, Maestro punk’d them so hard.

This has to be a self preservation tactic

You know the only one he's potentially playing here is you.

[ActionDan]

Anyway I have to get ready for work so if you don't answer in the next 5 min I'll force the issue and vote myself.

[ActionDan]

OK well final reads:

These people are town:

FL
Drew
Tomith
Cakez

Likely town or at least fade hu first:
Roden

I'd say good luck but I'm not sure I'd mean it aside from aureal tomith and cakez ATM.

VOTE: ActionDan

[ActionDan]

Oh and ofc maestro now they will live

Cut okay. Fine.

[ActionDan]

Vote me please.

I'm flipping town. You all need cold water thrown on you and if this is the way to do it go for it.

Maestro claimed day 3 before cakez and after i full claimed.

Also you have your order of events messed up. I docced maestro n1, cakez n2

[ActionDan]

Roden go

[ActionDan]

I also do not think Theta is more town at all from this. You've only discussed trite stuff like mechanics not really play. Not hard to engage.

Consider everyone much more carefully instead and make sure you fill in the gaps for the claims so far. They are NOT complete.

Then we lose

[ActionDan]

Yeah you will probably all live with the guilt for at least a while longer.

And the difference hardly matters as I am sure this particular town will fade me tomorrow no matter what

[ActionDan]

Gl not being targeted as the new FG group scum after my flip.

That's 100% happening, maybe even before they flip maestro

[ActionDan]

Alright since you guys aren't hammering

VOTE: Maestro

I'll be around to hammer myself lol

[ActionDan]

Damn you guys exceeded my expectations good job jobers.

Dry January can suck my balls get some knicks!

[ActionDan]

Because of their love for mafia, once per game, an Enthusiast can make all of their actions Unstoppable.

Well this would have been the night to use it. If the scum PT was locked how would they be able to use a factional conversion ability if it was shared? Converter / Back up Converter then?

[ActionDan]

If Cakez scum I still believe he can only be converted scum (quite unlikely). Otherwise Nk15's role just blows everyone else's out of the water being able to have a 50% hit ratio from the get go.

[ActionDan]

Garnet - ActionDan
Blair - Cakez
Dakota - Drew

[ActionDan]

If Cakez scum I still believe he can only be converted scum (quite unlikely). Otherwise Nk15's role just blows everyone else's out of the water being able to have a 50% hit ratio from the get go.

Explain this.

Maestro was a NK15 guilty as he could communicate outside FG (I asked mod confirmed this to me). Presumably non-traitor cult have a PT which would also be a guilty for NK15. so NK15 is stronger than every other role by a huge margin if 2 scum started in FG. So I doubt this. A lot.

[ActionDan]

Maestro - Arden
NK15 - Ira
ActionDan - Garnet
Doctor Drew - Dakota
SirCakez - Blair

Slip about what Titus?

[ActionDan]

That's like saying Cop is less effective because there's a miller. I mean sure, but it's negligible, and RR would be able to confirm in this case.

[ActionDan]

A communications check is pretty far from a hard guilty

hmmm true.

[ActionDan]

I still think the implication would be severally damaging.

[ActionDan]

D3

[ActionDan]

In Maestro's case it would be very awkward to claim who they messaged because on flip they would confirm a scum member as it would be natural for Maestro to supply the info he was a traitor to his team. No idea how the spin would go but I'm doubting it would be pretty.

[ActionDan]

I'm not really sure where to go from here. I still think Hu Tao is the N1 convert but not worth a fade. I think there's got to be scum in the investigative roles but I'm mellow / town on all of them currently and anyone who doesn't fit into this I have town reads on (and Bianco doesn't make sense as a fade right now because of Aureal claiming she does nothing every night).

[ActionDan]

Posts: 42473
Joined: July 18, 2017
Location: San Francisco
Contact: Contact Flavor Leaf
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Post Post #2352 (ISO) » Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:25 pm

I feel like your logic is usually a lot more sound than it has been this game, Dan

Logically I have always said FG group, if there was scum in it, is limited to original traitor. I believe this assumption is being borne out and I will be correct in the end. Do you not think the focus on FG remains artificial? It feels that way to me.

[ActionDan]

Dan, who is worth a fade?

If I had to say anyone I would say you. For someone who perennially does not seem to have a particularly good grasp of the happenings of this game, you rather seamlessly are transitioning to being quite ok with my fade.

The only other anomaly I am concerned about from a role perspective is that both Theta and Aureal have are followers; role overlap even with a lot of other conditions and differences tied or added on is unusual.

[ActionDan]

I’m semi okay with that, but feels like on a setup level it was meant for scum to be able to convert and know who they were converting, which is powerful.

Why wouldn’t scum convert you or Drew this game if Marstro was able to tell them your name and roles?

I’m fine with the idea you want to hunt for group scum, but i don’t believe the FG is clear.

I agree! I think me / Drew on N2 were good conversion targets. Cakez would be too (if Titus town). However, I protected Cakez N2; Drew protected me N2; Drew doesn't claim he did that D3 if he were converted. Could scum use their unstoppable conversion n2? Maybe, but its still just a convert, not group scum. So again not worth the focus. It would behoove us to search for scum in the non-FG population.

[ActionDan]

Dan and Drew’s names were open

N2 onwards.

[ActionDan]

Dan and Drew’s names were open

N2 onwards.

Yes. Doesn’t that make it likely one of you two were converted Night 2?

Well playwise D3 I don't think Drew was converted. And well I know I wasn't. But I think it's a fair assumption to think Scum used their unstoppable night two on me or Drew from an outside perspective. Or maybe Cakez. But I know the former didn't happen. And if the latter did it's not worth fading anyway.

[ActionDan]

I am waiting for Cakez to claim his result before saying who I went to. I wish Drew had done the same.

[ActionDan]

Why is someone you think is scum not worth the fade?

I want group scum. If FL is a miller that lends credence to Hu's role. So I don't think they started as scum. I think their play has been pretty representative as a recruit thus far too.

[ActionDan]

So knowing Dan and Drew’s roles, with the idea that Maestro is starting traitor who sent scum a message, with an unstoppable action, it becomes more likely that one of Dan/Drew would get converted Night 2.

I do think it implies Dan/Drew can make sense as town roles together.

Can you check with Mod how a theoretical standard conversion ability if unstoppable interacts with RR role? whether it hits him or his seduction target?

[ActionDan]

Aureal how strong do you think Theta's precision and competence is when it comes to mechanical matters?

Do you think Theta's explanation for possibly using her ability on DV is within those bounds?

[ActionDan]

Oh I just realized cakez claim was they see people outside FG only if they visit.

I targeted drew

[ActionDan]

Dan, you feel like a school student gluing things to see what sticks.

Yes that is a great analogy thanks! I am trying to build a complete picture of what makes sense and what doesnt.

[ActionDan]

if maestro is og traitor then i think that makes the rest of the fg a lot more likely town
if maestro was convert then that probably doesn't tell us much

I feel like a traitor and a scum in the same hood makes a fair bit of sense?
Granted because Maestro was a messenger I could see that not being the case though.

In terms of the context of a 5-man hood, sure. But in the context of this game, with these roles, and cumulative knowledge, no. That this is not intuitive to most of the players right now is scary.

There may not be positive definitive airtight bow-tied mod confirmed evidence. But there certainly is a staggering heap of information leading to the conclusion there isn't group scum in FG.

1) conversions due to an FG member circumvent risk and render FG roles impotent (save mine)

2) Nk15's role becomes overly strong and effective.

3) The scum ability claimed by FL becomes redundant

4) Maestro's ability to msg scum does not serve to give out our names, merely to inform them he's the traitor.

5) FG's role pool is synergistic. The one role that didnt make much sense, Maestro's, was scum

[ActionDan]

I reread gamma's d2. It's clear they are scum at this point. They don't crumb roden is town ever. Instead they do that for FL if anything.

Also they dicuss still being ascetic even though Hu has claimed they were informed they lost the ability D2.

[ActionDan]

I'd give it to FL or Theta.

[ActionDan]

1) cakez and Drew roles stop affect non-fg players only.

2) the conclusion remains the same for me that Nk15 role is relatively more powerful than anyone else's if 2 scum started in FG

3) see 1) A strongman recruit would only counter me not drew if used by scum in FG

4) I guess. Still lame.

5) Maybe, still doubtful to me. If so bravo cakez for picking a really really good fakeclaim.

[ActionDan]

I think I do deserve to get faded since maestro had the chance to hammer me and didn't. Moreover I believe he must have recognized the opportunity but didn't take it. I don't know why. We'll find out post game.

In the meantime I will do all I can to try to solve the game.

I think it's clear Hu is converted maybe small chance of group scum. And is currently open wolfing.

I think there has to be group scum in at least one of Theta, Titus, and Aureal.

I am coming around to Aureal as town but it is in no way a surety.

At risk of provoking FL to feed into his confirmation bias I think there is role synergy between bianco, FL, and Theta. Theta's claim is currently the most useful role in the game, and it does align with Bianco's. Though possibly less strong, same deal with FL. They have otherwise played extremely passively this game.

I don't know what partner makes sense with Titus scum currently. That's about all the good I can say. I sense their play has taken a nosedive which might be a characteristic of Titus scum.

[ActionDan]

@Dan - in regards to the Bianco, Theta, Flavor thing, you’re taking it at face value that as scum, it would be all true claim roles.

+ I thought you were under the impression Maestro was the traitor?

I think this game as a whole has a lot of synergy on a setup level.

Yes perhaps you're right. Even if I think it is a decent assumption the roles are true that does not mean alignment is. Normally you would think scum have roles to counter town power but I see the appeal in a cult game of given roles to blend in.

I will think on it.

Yes maestro OG traitor certainly with that personal ability on FG group. Unsure where I gave impression he wasn't.

Synergistic setups rend to be easier to predict and I would like to leverage that as much as possible.

[ActionDan]

No that was ostensibly an argument for Theta being town

[ActionDan]

Hahaha come on man

[ActionDan]

I'm not arguing any of that. Provoking you was added because giving a reason to townread Theta would feed into your consistent postings of tying me and Theta together

[ActionDan]

Wait one sec. Maybe we should talk about this further until everyone is on board.

Hu Tao is clearly clearly converted if not group scum.

That would be by far the most wasteful observe/follow target

Very very happy to go over arguments for this

[ActionDan]

The follow part of the role is the important one.

Use both like you're trying to cop group scum

[ActionDan]

Wait one sec. Maybe we should talk about this further until everyone is on board.

Hu Tao is clearly clearly converted if not group scum.

That would be by far the most wasteful observe/follow target

Very very happy to go over arguments for this

Why are they confirmed converted?

Thanks for asking!

Two reasons, one via play, one via role.

Role reason: Hu Tao has claimed to have lost the ability to cop D2. No one has claimed to have targeted them N1. And roden's self watch isn't a targeted ability and even if it was.. it would target roden. So scum targeted Hu N1. Now Gamma had claimed ascetic so why would scum target that with an ability? Thus they must have specifically used an action that targeted via real names not knowing who was who's. Thus conversion action.

Caveat: some dumb flavor consideration about being caught via the stream but I am doubtful.

Play reason: Gamma's D2 just does not make any sense if they have a town result on Roden and they were vanilla. No crumbs, nothing. Iso Gamma if you want to see for yourself and ask if it makes sense. It does not.

Plus has Hu felt like they are playing like town ever or right now? No

[ActionDan]

If I flip town will people still charge after cakez for nebulous non-existant reasons?

[ActionDan]

VOTE: biancospino

What possessed you to make this vote after seeing bianco do nothing twice?

[ActionDan]

Yeah, there’s just very few worlds where Dan is town here.

Maestro was actively playing against wincon if Dan and Maestro were unaligned.

Dan also specifically targeted Maestro one of the nights, so that could even been a night of conversion (was this Night 1?) and then the next day the two teamed up onto RR.

I just think logically and objectively Dan is scum. He’s townie by town to me, though.

Maestro didn't hammer me. My only explanation for it at this point is human error. If it was anti wincon it would be beneath me to speculate why.

This is a good weighty reason for my fade. But it is the only reason.

Every other piece of evidence in the game supports the opposite conclusion. You just learned that scum unstoppable doesn't affect RR ability. It counters me and drew. And if I'm group scum then it does 0. And then nice useless info you got there. You sure there's no alarm bells ringing? Because your posts are devolving into willful ignorance.

Also thoughts on Hu Tao? Or are we turning a blind eye to that too.

[ActionDan]

That's the nature of the beast that is Mafia. Are you upset I asked you a question about your vote?

[ActionDan]

Another thing to make (more) hay of ere we turn our brains off, is that Drew's role is probably not just useless if me/cakez are group scum but in my opinion bastard. Because town would be better served if he never used it tje entire game

[ActionDan]

Why

[ActionDan]

Like when I flip town why would you have to go cakez for example. How does that follow?

[ActionDan]

Yes the inno is invalid. I still think roden is town. Same with Thomith, no inno required. In group protections do not affect FG members. I docced drew, cakez watched Drew, cakez didn't see me visit Drew. E.g.

[ActionDan]

Hu Tao feels like Hu Tao when they replaced into my BooneyToonz game, and they were town like this.

That being said, I have recently been hard pushing Hu Tao town.

That also being said, same thing happened in Blood for Utopia and they were scum.

You really really really are going out of your way to ignore the obvious.

As for what happens after I flip town. Everything I have said about mechanical reasons to townread FG group continues to apply. And as I said before the maestro interactions will be immediately shattered. Whatever spell or stupor you're operating under by rights should be broken.

If you still pursue cakez then, you are scum. Call it BoP but that's my assessment.

BTW Titus I haven't forgot your ask of me previously. When I'm at a computer tonight I will answer.

The short version is I was going to call you newly myopic. Name dropping Aureal at least mitigates that a tad

[ActionDan]

@Dan - I’ve barely pursued Cakez, idk why you targeting me with that.

You're doing that now with a false dichotomy.

I want to sure this won't happen. I doubt Titus will ever be persuaded, but one would hope you might be

[ActionDan]

Also read d2 gamma's iso. See what you make of it. I promise it's short

[ActionDan]

Yeah thats definitely a cop. No chance of group scum.

Aureal's post reminds me to look at maestro interactions.

[ActionDan]

Theta what was your rationale for choosing to visit me n2?

[ActionDan]

Thats a very poor answer

[ActionDan]

Add more WIFOM to the pile

[ActionDan]

What would you do if you had a follow/observe? Which part appeals to you?

[ActionDan]

There you go

[ActionDan]

I feel like there is at least one post in my iso somewhere responding to you as to what I thought about cakez' play separately from mechanics

[ActionDan]

Did you think I was very town? Perspective matters

[ActionDan]

What would you do if you had a follow/observe? Which part appeals to you?

I'd probably look for a converter.

There you go

...Is your case on Theta that she must be scum due to being honest about using her role un-optimally?

It is a poor answer not an immediately damning one. However having played with rautherdir before, a disconnect before between role and thought process would not be a first as scum. And it is not the first in this game.