Why did newbie games end?

[KayJayQueue]

Being a new player feels like starting every game ten steps behind and there’s nothing you can do to catch up. Anything you say can be dismissed based off of meta reads and anything you do can be misaligned because no one knows you and jumps straight to thinking it has to be bad. There is also an air of more experienced players looking down on new players, not being taken seriously, and feeling like your opinions don’t matter. You try to have fun and joke a little? You’re wrong. You play seriously and try to solve? You’re wrong. You get upset when you get treated differently based on your perceived experience? You’re wrong.

So what’s the best way to stop being treated like a “less than”? Just endure it? Leave the forum? Get over it?

[Ythan]

Try to remember that at least sometimes that is an intentional effort to demoralize and redirect you.

[the worst]

I'm not a mod on the mafia side so really just talking through what I've seen as a user.

Newbie games used to be amazing, when forums were more popular and there was a fair bit of interest. They started to dry up, the queues got slower, and I rrally suspect a lot more newbies ended up flaking out because it just seemed like games weren't firing. The last kinda like, 6 months or year of the newbie queue was much less of a vibe and it didn't feel as fit for purpose anymore.

There's totally still a place for games for new players! They still pop up & seem popular. Thing is, I think the best way to enjoy a community like this is to find your people here - invite folks you like playing with to games, seek out other players who seem to be around your experience level, stuff like that. Newbie games did do part of this for us, but nothing compares to forming connections with players from your generation organically.

Ythan's point is salient. Social games are hard by nature, because they're about connecting with people socially. Mafia adds fuel to the fire, because trying to stop you from successfully connecting with others is a really viable strategy for maintaining control over a game. It's worth remembering that sometimes it's nothing to do with you, and nothing to do with toxicity - it could be a tactic. It could also be a misunderstanding or lack of awareness of your style! It's so hard to point to just one thing.

Some older players will, forever, look down on less experienced players. I do think most of us are decent, or at least that the majority are kind. It occurs to me as I type this that I'm not that friendly or approachable in games anymore - it's not elitism or coldness, I've just come to manifest a more independent persona because I think it helps me enjoy the game more. Maybe that's what happens with experience, like, confidence and familiarity moreso than elitism. It can be socially exhausting to try and connect with every single player, so sometimes I just kinda go "OK noted" and leave them in a box for later. Sometimes I won't know how to read people and don't sense an in-road to get a read on them so I'll just ignore them and lazily wagon them & try to solve them later. This stuff is really idiosyncratic, I guess, and players who've played for a long time develop idiosyncrasies.

Some other neat tricks that can help:
- if someone isn't engaging with you, try talking to them about something they're pursuing actively (e.g. their weird vote, their favourite pet read, what their take is on a player they seem to be struggling with, etc.).
- real time interactions!! they're amazing. for real. if someone is right there and you talk to them they'll often feel compelled to try and talk back. shorter posts & a more conversational tone can help with this.
- if someone is particularly egregiously blocking you out, vote them or call them out!! that can be a great move for both advancing the game, and for helping you to work through a perceived slight



tl;dr- newbie games died a fairly natural death fmpov (and it's really unfortunate). sometimes people are cold in mafia games. this can be tactical malice, or it can be a personality quirk. in my experience it's rarely due to disdain or elitism. if it is, those people stink. sometimes changing your perspective or calling them to change theirs can help with personality disconnect.

[DragonEater70]

Hi, just chiming in to say that:
1. I really liked newbie games as a newbie
2. I probably would have never played a game on this site if newbie games didn't exist (or would have left after one game due to being ignored completely).
3. It's really tough for a newbie to play a game with established players that know each other and are several levels of play above them, and it would be even more so for the first game.

All of which is to say that I think majority-newbie games would be more fun for newbies than games where they are in the minority, and I do think there's value to the newbie queue or to at least telling more experienced players to play nice when playing with newbies.

[Radical Rat]

Newbie games were great, and dearly missed, but as the worst says there really just weren't enough newbies flowing for games to reliably fire, and near the end of the Newbie Queue, games would often end up with 50+% non-Newbies anyway.

Something that might help is finding a game that allows Hydras, and seeing if someone might be willing to play alongside you. Having a known trustworthy person to ground you and bounce ideas off of can be extremely helpful

[KayJayQueue]

Seems like the consensus is that new players have to conform to make the community accept them. Can’t say that’s going to be the best policy if you want to gain a newer player base at any point in the future.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that these actions aren’t due to elitism. But we are all allowed to have our opinions. Mine just happens to be coming from first hand experiences over the past month.

[Cabd]

Seems like the consensus is that new players have to conform to make the community accept them. Can’t say that’s going to be the best policy if you want to gain a newer player base at any point in the future.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that these actions aren’t due to elitism. But we are all allowed to have our opinions. Mine just happens to be coming from first hand experiences over the past month.

There are mods who are happy to run newbie-focused setups if demand occurs. But we're not always aware of the rate of newbies showing up.

[Radical Rat]

Seems like the consensus is that new players have to conform to make the community accept them. Can’t say that’s going to be the best policy if you want to gain a newer player base at any point in the future.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that these actions aren’t due to elitism. But we are all allowed to have our opinions. Mine just happens to be coming from first hand experiences over the past month.

What exactly do you mean by "have to conform" here?

[KayJayQueue]

All the suggestions here seem to be what new players can do to help themselves be more accepted and comfortable instead of looking at how the current players treat new players in these games.

[DragonEater70]

Well as I said, I think there's some value in having games where the mod explicitly tells veterans before the game starts to accommodate newbies

(or better yet, have it be a rule for the queue. You could even call it the "newbie-accommodating queue", or "newbie queue" for short)

. And also to have games which require most players to have less than 5 completed games.

[fferyllt]

All the suggestions here seem to be what new players can do to help themselves be more accepted and comfortable instead of looking at how the current players treat new players in these games.

I think this is a valid impression to have, though the degree of reach out and acceptance of new players can vary a lot depending on the player list.

I'm always happy to run a newbie setup if someone requests it, and as a mod will indicate the game is expected to be newbie friendly. I think as more time goes by since the Newbie Queue existed members may not remember the expectations for newbie friendliness.

[the worst]

Seems like the consensus is that new players have to conform to make the community accept them. Can’t say that’s going to be the best policy if you want to gain a newer player base at any point in the future.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that these actions aren’t due to elitism. But we are all allowed to have our opinions. Mine just happens to be coming from first hand experiences over the past month.

Sorry to be blunt, but I don't think this is a charitable interpretation of my post. Conformity isn't great, but part of getting into the flow of playing mafia is finding that sweet spot where your style gels with the people you're playing with.

That's true for all communities, and sometimes different game by game. It's just part of the challenge of playing social games I think.

[the worst]

All the suggestions here seem to be what new players can do to help themselves be more accepted and comfortable instead of looking at how the current players treat new players in these games.

I think this is a valid impression to have, though the degree of reach out and acceptance of new players can vary a lot depending on the player list.

I'm always happy to run a newbie setup if someone requests it, and as a mod will indicate the game is expected to be newbie friendly. I think as more time goes by since the Newbie Queue existed members may not remember the expectations for newbie friendliness.

This is true too (and sorry if my previous response was a bit short). There's definitely a middle ground between newbie-friendliness and finding ways to meet people in the middle.

I really can't stress enough that part of mafia is learning ways to work through these disconnects though.

[KayJayQueue]

Yes but you’re putting the onus entirely on new players with your perspective. It shouldn’t be our job to capitulate to more seasoned players and their unfair treatment because it’s a social game. I’m happy to meet in the middle of the other side were willing but in my limited experience here, that’s not likely to happen. The reliance on meta is crippling.

[JacksonVirgo]

ego, don’t mind me

[Psyche]

I honestly think for you personally this is mainly just a confidence thing. Your play in our recent game at least was really solid and already above in quality over a large proportion of the more experienced playerbase. The strength of your play is plenty enough ground to dismiss other slots' elitism.

Arrogant and/or dismissive players definitely are a dime a dozen here though, and this can mess w the game experience even for non-newbie players. I don't know a good way to address that without messing w game integrity though — convincing people to take you seriously is part of gameplay. And yet there are options. A broad community-based willingness to call out this behavior in our games when we see it happen, and maybe post-game feedback from the moderator.

If we collectively insist on pressuring the people in our games to avoid patterns that make games less fun to play, the site will be a nicer place to be, there would be fewer replace-outs, and so on. Maybe focus on moderator policy itt is obscuring that maybe that's what you're calling for here — more attention and effort around this issue at all levels.

[fferyllt]

Yes but you’re putting the onus entirely on new players with your perspective. It shouldn’t be our job to capitulate to more seasoned players and their unfair treatment because it’s a social game. I’m happy to meet in the middle of the other side were willing but in my limited experience here, that’s not likely to happen. The reliance on meta is crippling.

The suggestions about finding a cohort of players who are also new-ish to join games with is a good one. I was part of the 2013 cohort when I joined this site, and I still make a point of signing up for games with other players of that era because we forged friendships and still enjoy playing with each other. The Newbie Queue helped new players find each other, but it definitely wasn't the only way to find sympatico players. Look at the join dates of players signing up for a game you're interested in. Look at which games players that you do like playing with are joining. And maybe branch out from the normal queue if that's where you're mostly playing.

I'm thinking about throwing a newbie style game into the Open Queue sometime soon. I'll let you know about it if I can pull that off with other stuff I'm committed to right now.

[KayJayQueue]

If anyone at all wants to run a newbie game, I’d love to join.

[GuyInFreezer]

The reliance on meta is crippling.

“Meta” (which is used incorrectly most of the time because people like having very low sample size of games played together and call that meta) is an unfortunate side effect of mafia games in general and people tend to rely on it because having something to reference when reading someone is easier than just trying to read someone blindly. It’s like taking an exam with or without notes. So you will never see people not relying on meta, not just in this site, but in any site.

[fferyllt]

If anyone at all wants to run a newbie game, I’d love to join.

I'll PM you when I'm ready to /in a newbie style setup in the Open Queue. Maybe in a week or so.

[Psyche]

i know there's already a gtkas thread that's close, but maybe a thread in queue for newbies to pop into for queueing help and especially coordinating opportunities for them to /in the same games together could be a stel toward preserving the newbie queue experience

i can further imagine more dramatic changes like privileging confirmed newbies in queues (so they're in a game faster), welcome PMs that look like those initial IC posts that used to be made, maybe a buddy system for pairing newbies in games with people willing to take on an IC role, and so on.


there really are a lot of policy approaches besides bringing back newbie queue that might help with this issue

[KayJayQueue]

I appreciate your input very much, Psyche. Thank you.

[Lukewarm]

The newbie queue was possibly my favorite queue for a long time. It definitely helped me get settled onto the site, and I honestly don't know if I would have settled in without it. And then, even after I graduated to a veteran player of the queue, I still signed up there regularly.

That being said, I also understand why the mod team felt like it became a problem. The frequency of how often the queue filled slowed dramatically over time after I joined, and I saw multiple newbies get frustrated and trying to join a game and a month or more passing and the game never started.

I don't have any answers here, but if someone is gonna run a newbie queue style game I'd be willing to help it fill.

[Firebringer]

All the suggestions here seem to be what new players can do to help themselves be more accepted and comfortable instead of looking at how the current players treat new players in these games.

easier to change yourself than others

[Firebringer]

I don't really think reintroducing a newbie game to play in would resolve the problems you listed out. But hope you find a game you can enjoy