Mini Normal 2361 - Extremely Normal Waterfalls | Game Over

[DragonEater70]

Rip reputation of enchant reader. Now you sit with DkKoba in failed readers club.

I don't really agree that this is RIP for Enchant reader reputation. You evolved your meta - your readers are going to need to adjust. You were definitely out of your previous scum meta.

[Andante]

gg, sorry that wasn't my finest game, definitely the first time I've gotten lost with hyperposting whatnot lol I definitely apologize for contributing to that in the past... lmao
shoutout to enchant for repping in to e-1 and instantly making us TR the slot

[Gimli]

that wasn't my finest game

you're the first one who noticed black scumclaimed btw you did REALLY well

[Aureal]

Personally I think the inclusion of a Universal Backup together with 2 hard clears and 2 clearable roles was very very strong. If I were the one reviewing the original setup Aureal submitted for review, I'd have told her to switch the Universal Backup with either a Vanilla Townie (for a total of 2 VTs) or an Ascetic Visitor or something, and then passed the setup.

Huh, you'd make town

weaker

from that setup? I do think that it was fine to buff town a bit with things like making the vig Ascetic to remove the potential for it to get roleblocked and wrongly clear scum.

The VT was only a potential clear and it was not very likely to actually be found as such in time for it to matter, let alone on D1. 90% of the time the Goon claims VT in a massclaim and so you can only clear the VT if you manage to flip the Goon first. And the VT was probably more vulnerable to miselimination than in a game with fewer PRs because they might get run up to a claim and save themself with the claim but people don't usually back off of a VT claim.

[Aureal]

Also, HAVE ANOTHER WATERFALL BECAUSE IT'S COOL AND I DIDN'T GET TO USE IT AND THAT MAKES ME SAD, I HAD THIS ONE TUCKED AWAY EVER SINCE I DECIDED ON THE FLAVOR

Eternal Flame Falls, New York

[Enchant]

If you balance game on scum sacrificing self, then you should reconsider.

At this point you just have to trip people up with adding two VTs, not one. Everyone basically assumed there's only one cuz it's meta of your setups.

[The Fonz]

Personally I think the inclusion of a Universal Backup together with 2 hard clears and 2 clearable roles was very very strong. If I were the one reviewing the original setup Aureal submitted for review, I'd have told her to switch the Universal Backup with either a Vanilla Townie (for a total of 2 VTs) or an Ascetic Visitor or something, and then passed the setup.

Huh, you'd make town

weaker

from that setup? I do think that it was fine to buff town a bit with things like making the vig Ascetic to remove the potential for it to get roleblocked and wrongly clear scum.

The VT was only a potential clear and it was not very likely to actually be found as such in time for it to matter, let alone on D1. 90% of the time the Goon claims VT in a massclaim and so you can only clear the VT if you manage to flip the Goon first. And the VT was probably more vulnerable to miselimination than in a game with fewer PRs because they might get run up to a claim and save themself with the claim but people don't usually back off of a VT claim.

Literally a second VT would have been enough to make it claimable for scum.

Part of the parade of hard clears was due to scum eliminations(

edited language again -A)

the first two days which is intended to be hard for mafia. But yeah two watchy roles combined with minimal target able players and a universal backup created a perfect storm.

[DragonEater70]

Huh, you'd make town

weaker

from that setup?

Oh, yes, absolutely.

[chibiyali]

Also, HAVE ANOTHER WATERFALL BECAUSE IT'S COOL AND I DIDN'T GET TO USE IT AND THAT MAKES ME SAD, I HAD THIS ONE TUCKED AWAY EVER SINCE I DECIDED ON THE FLAVOR

Eternal Flame Falls, New York

+10 points for that waterfall!

[mcqueen]

Also, HAVE ANOTHER WATERFALL BECAUSE IT'S COOL AND I DIDN'T GET TO USE IT AND THAT MAKES ME SAD, I HAD THIS ONE TUCKED AWAY EVER SINCE I DECIDED ON THE FLAVOR

Eternal Flame Falls, New York

I’ve never actually seen a waterfall irl yet

[Trace0n]

Also, HAVE ANOTHER WATERFALL BECAUSE IT'S COOL AND I DIDN'T GET TO USE IT AND THAT MAKES ME SAD, I HAD THIS ONE TUCKED AWAY EVER SINCE I DECIDED ON THE FLAVOR

Eternal Flame Falls, New York

I wasnt in this game but was scrolling thru and seeing this warmed my heart. I dont live there anymore but im born and raised in Buffalo NY and hikes to the eternal flame as a big part of my childhood, this picture made me super nostalgic!

[Aureal]

If you balance game on scum sacrificing self, then you should reconsider.

At this point you just have to trip people up with adding two VTs, not one. Everyone basically assumed there's only one cuz it's meta of your setups.

Eh?

There were three VTs in the micro I ran last month (with two of the other town being straight-up Neighbors) and four in the micro I was running at the same time as this (not that anyone but DE would've known that yet). All the other games I've run have been Opens.

I've played in at least two games where there was only one VT and not once did anyone ever consider that the VT was clearable for being the only VT until after they'd been flipped. It was very far from a foregone conclusion that it would happen here.

Huh, you'd make town

weaker

from that setup?

Oh, yes, absolutely.

I think you're confbiased from seeing how it actually played out and think the way it happened is a lot more probable than it actually is Granted, the likelihood of more than just the Ascetic part of the role being claimed (which I did expect most of them to do) probably was higher than I thought and that led to having some hard-clears already on day one, which did help box the mafia in. That was part of the setup swing, in that the roles that were saving people from elimination went to players like Andante, Nicole, mcqueen, and Trekkie.

[The Fonz]

I think you're confbiased from seeing how it actually played out and think the way it happened is a lot more probable than it actually is Granted, the likelihood of more than just the Ascetic part of the role being claimed (which I did expect most of them to do) probably was higher than I thought and that led to having some hard-clears already on day one, which did help box the mafia in. That was part of the setup swing, in that the roles that were saving people from elimination went to players like Andante, Nicole, mcqueen, and Trekkie.

I think you're right in that people tend ex post facto to assume what happened was inevitable. I think that even without mod meta it seemed that with the number of ascetics (and the site norms about D1 claims) and the 'must have a VT' rule in normals plus the advertisement making clear the game would be complex that only one VT was a significant possibility. It wouldn't have been a big change to make Scorp's role also vanilla.

Plus the logic of the setup was to draw all night actions to less than 1/3 of the player base. Given that the issue caused by two watching roles and a backup should have been more obvious to reviewers IMHO.

Perhaps making one or two roles Lazy would have helped? Or... I can't remember the name of the modifier that means the action only works if that role is the only one to target a given players? Or a scum Rolestopper.

[LicketyQuickety]

Extremely great flavor, oh my gosh!

[T3]

This setup is an affront to God

[mcqueen]

This setup is an affront to God

That’s what makes it good