Night Watch Open 95 - Game Over before 703

[Jex]

Vote Count

3 - Crazy (afatchic, Xtoxm, camn)
2 - Panda Stomper 85 (StrangerCoug, The Central Scrutinizer)
1 - bionicchop2 (orangepenguin)

Not Voting

bionicchop2, Crazy, icemanE, ortolan, Panda Stomper 85

It takes 6 votes to lynch

[Crazy]

Hi, I got some kind of spyware on my computer. Not sure what the heck it's about.

Hey, bionic! I was wondering when I'd finally get to play another game with you.

Uh, yeah, the argument against me is crap, because...

1. I love Open Setups; I look at the Open Setup Nominations thread all the time. Adel proposed both this setup and Carbon-14 recently. (which is running as Open 96 right now) I joined this game because the watcher (WATCHA) is one of my favorite roles ever. And yeah, I join games that I find interesting; I don't go joining games randomly, and I was fully aware of this setup before I joined it, including the part about the night start.

If you want more evidence, you'll notice that I corrected farside on the Open Queue about this game... (she listed it as having 3 vanilla townies, while it has 5) I think this is an awesome setup which is why I joined it.

2. The role PMs are listed on the front page. There is nothing in the mafia PM that suggests a night start. Really, how could there be if the

mod

didn't even know it? Obviously I knew it was a night start from my own recollection.

Good enough, Xtoxm? Did you really think your attack would fly?

[ortolan]

FoS: xtoxm

for voting for Crazy with the worst reasoning and without jokevoting

[ortolan]

Also, I have to say the hider is an interesting ability.

If you choose to hide behind someone then you currently have a 3/11 chance of dying. If you don't then you have a 1/11 chance of dying.

The only way it could possibly be useful is if they announced who they were going to hide behind before doing so, so like a self-sacrificial investigative role. This would be more dangerous to do later in the game however, so perhaps they should either play as a vanilla townie and not use their ability for the whole game or claim now and try to get killed to turn up scum. Also, was someone to do this and report people as innocent we could not be sure they weren't mafia making a fakeclaim.

Anyone else agree with this? The watcher should either play like a vanilla townie for the whole game or claim now, say who they tried to hide behind night one if anyone and who they intend to hide behind night two.

I thought about whether it was possible for the mafia to manipulate this i.e. kill them once they nominate in the thread that they will hide behind a townie, to incriminate the townie. But we would know if this happened because the mafia would not have nightkilled someone else also.

[camn]

...

UNVOTE:crazy

I just wanted to see what you would say.

And re: the hider.. the trick would be to VERY SUBTLE-Y breadcrumb who you are hiding behind.

HOWEVER.. I don't really know why you are speculating as to what a PR should be doing.. . and I REALLY don't like you asking for them to claim at this point.
My opinion? Ignore this ortloan's speculation.

Do not claim

. In fact, don't even breadcrumb.. unless you are really good at it. ESPECIALLY ignore ort's statement that this is the "only way it could possibly be useful". SO untrue.


On a strictly academic note, I was recently in a game with 2 Hider's in endgame. They hid behind each other...

[ortolan]

I didn't suggest they should claim

I suggested it was one way they could play their role

And I really don't see how my points could be harmful to town- the hider is still free to play as they see fit. The fact remains, that unless they picked someone on night 0 who wasn't scum to hide behind, who is still alive and is going to be alive for a substantial proportion of the game, it seems as though by using their hide ability in the future they are more likely to die than if they don't.

That's a fair point about breadcrumbing but the fact remains even if the scum notice the breadcrumb they _cannot_ do anything about it. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind an innocent player, the scum can't kill them. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind a mafia player they will be dead. In fact this is more of a reason for the hider to claim- if they choose an innocent player they will definitely survive the night, if they choose a scummy one they will definitely not survive the night. EITHER of the rolecop or the watcher could confirm if they're telling the truth on that same night, and could stay silent and not claim unless the hider was lying.

To reiterate, if the hider claims and says who they will hide behind (and they can be verified by EITHER the watcher or the rolecop, who DON'T have to claim the following day unless they find that the hider is lying), then if they choose an innocent player, they will survive the night and the mafia can't attack them. If they choose a mafia player, they will die, and we will have exchanged a suicidal investigator for a mafia player (this is the _best_ outcome for this role, imo).

Please comment on this plan. I have some more ideas for contingencies but I don't want to put plans into the mafia's head.

[StrangerCoug]

I didn't suggest they should claim

I suggested it was one way they could play their role

And I really don't see how my points could be harmful to town- the hider is still free to play as they see fit. The fact remains, that unless they picked someone on night 0 who wasn't scum to hide behind, who is still alive and is going to be alive for a substantial proportion of the game, it seems as though by using their hide ability in the future they are more likely to die than if they don't.

That's a fair point about breadcrumbing but the fact remains even if the scum notice the breadcrumb they _cannot_ do anything about it. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind an innocent player, the scum can't kill them. If the hider breadcrumbs and hides behind a mafia player they will be dead. In fact this is more of a reason for the hider to claim- if they choose an innocent player they will definitely survive the night, if they choose a scummy one they will definitely not survive the night. EITHER of the rolecop or the watcher could confirm if they're telling the truth on that same night, and could stay silent and not claim unless the hider was lying.

To reiterate, if the hider claims and says who they will hide behind (and they can be verified by EITHER the watcher or the rolecop, who DON'T have to claim the following day unless they find that the hider is lying), then if they choose an innocent player, they will survive the night and the mafia can't attack them. If they choose a mafia player, they will die, and we will have exchanged a suicidal investigator for a mafia player (this is the _best_ outcome for this role, imo).

Please comment on this plan. I have some more ideas for contingencies but I don't want to put plans into the mafia's head.

The plan you have is pretty interesting in and of itself. I may be a bit on the purist side and prefer people not play to break the game, but I do like the strategy involved here. Confirmed town narrows down the pool to who the scum could be, and the result of a confirmed scum is obvious.

[ortolan]

And when I say "best" outcome for this role obviously it's better if they clear multiple innocents *before* targetting a mafia player (who they can then confirm the next day, as they are guaranteed to be alive- the rolecop/watcher can also be contingencies against a mafia player fakeclaiming), but I'm saying there is no reason to be scared of hitting a mafia player. The _worst_ outcome for this plan is swapping a mafia player for an innocent day 1, the second worst outcome is getting a confirmed innocent day 2 and then swapping a mafia player for an innocent, the third worst outcome is getting two confirmed innocents days 2 and 3 and then swapping a mafia player for an innocent etc.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I think as a hider I would definitely not roleclaim. I would just gamble on hiding behind one person on night one, and then if I didn't die, I would continue hiding behind that person each night, barring some sort of setup gaming. If I felt safe, I would also play very aggressively and hope that scum would target me.

Anyhow, I think I'm going to

unvote, Panda Stomper 85, vote: orangepenguin, and FOS: Panda Stomper 85

.

I'm not entirely convinced by your explanation of Panda Stomper 64's untimely demise, but I'm willing to downgrade you and vote the humorless villain orangepenguin.

[afatchic]

okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.

[bionicchop2]

The Hider has the ability to target one player each night. If that player is pro-town, the hider is protected from Night-Kills that night.

If the player targeted is killed that same night, the Hider dies too.

If the player targeted is Mafia, the hider usually dies.

The bolded part is what I consider the norm for a hider. The mod will need to clarify. All talks about announcing who the hider hides behind won't get us anywhere. If the mafia knows where the hider hides, they can get 2 kills in one night.

[bionicchop2]

okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.

This actually doesn't sound bad. We may need to think about this further.

[icemanE]

I agree with fatchic's idea - beyond being a sort of "bomb" role, I don't see the point of the hider, so it seems like there should be a hypoclaim of sorts if we're going to spin things that way. I don't see an outstanding advantage to the hider claiming on day one - a bit further down the road, maybe day 3, the hider claiming would be quite useful in clearing townies, but at this stage, keep quiet.

[ortolan]

The Hider has the ability to target one player each night. If that player is pro-town, the hider is protected from Night-Kills that night.

If the player targeted is killed that same night, the Hider dies too.

If the player targeted is Mafia, the hider usually dies.

The bolded part is what I consider the norm for a hider. The mod will need to clarify. All talks about announcing who the hider hides behind won't get us anywhere. If the mafia knows where the hider hides, they can get 2 kills in one night.

If this is true then my plan is not going to work. Furthermore, if it is true I was not aware that this was the case as I have not played in a game with a hider previously. However I very much like this idea:

okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.

Does anyone have any reason we should not do this?

[camn]

afatchic plan seems good, and fun.

ortolan's obsession with gaming the power roles is neither good, nor fun.

Does anyone have any reason we should not do this?

The answer is.. we should be playing mafia instead.

[afatchic]

afatchic plan seems good, and fun.

ortolan's obsession with gaming the power roles is neither good, nor fun.

Does anyone have any reason we should not do this?

The answer is.. we should be playing mafia instead.

so by doing what i said we should do we are somehow not playing mafia?

you say we should stop talking about power roles, yet that seems to be what your enitre last post was about, being a little hypocritical?

Unvote, Vote camn

for being against something that may be very helpful for the town.

[camn]

afatchic plan seems good, and fun.

How am I against it?

[camn]

Ah, Upon rereading, I can see how it comes off as me being against it.

Let me clarify.

Afatchic.. your plan is good. lets do it. In my post above, I did not mean to imply that we shouldn't all fake-claim Hider... it is a clever plan and I like it..

What is suspicious to me ort's seeming fixation on figuring out what to do with the Hider role.
First he says

The watcher should either play like a vanilla townie for the whole game or claim now...

then

I didn't suggest they should claim

then launches into a convoluted plan, with statistics and everything, that is defeated by the wiki.
THEN, when afatchic brings up his idea (which, to reiterate, I

like

), Ort grabs THAT and runs with it.

.. it all seemed suspect to me last night after getting home from the bar... and I have certainly gotten lynched for less

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ok, so let's run this past me again. Essentially, every person says whom they would hide behind if they were the real hider. Then... what? We let mafia choose the person to kill that would most likely result in a double nightkill?

Planfail.

[bionicchop2]

Ok, so let's run this past me again. Essentially, every person says whom they would hide behind if they were the real hider. Then... what? We let mafia choose the person to kill that would most likely result in a double nightkill?

Planfail.

There are many ways to manipulate the mafia if town fake claims properly. This is the most effective use of the hider role IMO. If one person has 2 people 'hiding' behind them, then the watcher could also watch that person and catch mafia trying to pick off the double kill. Also, if hider dies (non-double kill) we have 1 mafia with no argument on who it is (whoever hider targeted).

vote TCS

for now, since this plan is obviously a solid approach.

[afatchic]

camn- sorry i misunderstood what you was trying to say, but i get it now. i also thought ort seemed very scummy with his behavior over the PR's, but it seemed somewhat newbish to me, just something to keep in mind though.

however i don't really agree with what TCS is saying. first by doing what i said, it would give an inno from last night upon the hiders death. if the hider dies, plus a nk on a person the hider didn't claim to hide behind, you have caught one mafia. finally, if the hider becomes so obvious that the mafia know who to shoot and get a double kill, then it should be obvious to the watcher, and yet again we catch a mafia. IMO this seems like the only way to make the most of the hider role.

So can you please explain how this plan is flawed....? FOS TCS

[Crazy]

Meh, I like afatchic's plan. The possibility of a double night-kill brings it down somewhat, but the possibility of confirming a mafia player makes it more useful.

And the hider PM is poorly worded. I always understood a hider to be immune from NKs unless if the person he hides behind is killed or unless if he hides behind a mafia. I definitely would like to hear mod clarification from this.

TCS's view is

very

one-sided, indeed.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote: Panda Stomper 85

since we have some serious discussion now.

I'm not entirely convinced by your explanation of Panda Stomper 64's untimely demise, but I'm willing to downgrade you and vote the humorless villain orangepenguin.

Since you are FoSing Panda Stomper 85, I don't understand what this "untimely demise" of his that you speak of is.

okay to be honest i don't at all like ortolans idea of the PR's claiming right now. that just seems scummy to me. however, an idea that i like a little better, which was done in a game i just finished. is everyone fake claims as hider. and you say i hid behind (player) last night, so they are town. and then right before night everyone claims who they will hide behind if they were hider. so right now no one is cleared, and the mafia don't have a clue who the hider is, but whenever the hider dies, the town can go back and look at their reports and find who is actually cleared, and who the hider died behind.

Hmm. It's a very interesting plan indeed, and I like the reasoning behind it.

[icemanE]

I am going to

unvote - vote: TCS

for trying to bring down what is clearly a protown plan.

[Jex]

Vote Count

2 - The Central Scrutinizer (bionicchop2, icemanE)
1 - Crazy (Xtoxm)
1 - bionicchop2 (orangepenguin)
1- oreangepenguin - (The Central Scrutinizer)
1 - camn (afatchic)

Not Voting

Crazy, ortolan, Panda Stomper 85

It takes 6 votes to lynch

If the person the hider chooses to hid behind is killed that night the hider will die too.