Open 104 - The New C9 - Game Over

[Wall-E]

SC: I remember you saying that too. Can you clarify? What case do you see?

It's mostly the question-dodging that I think is hurting you the most.

What question(s)?

[StrangerCoug]

I was saying in general and was looking at #815 when I wrote that.

[The Fonz]

OK guys, sorry I haven't posted the last two days... they were the last two days of my final, massively important placement, so I spent thursday working my ass off and friday celebrating. Anyway, back to the grind...

matrix. i will try

fonz, please give us youre thoughts on walle

To this point, he's made two posts. Two posts are not likely to produce anything on which I can give detailed 'thoughts' though his OGML vote is... well, I wouldn't do it, but I can understand it.

I don't think I've ever been "helpful" on a day 1. I suck at wolf-finding on every day, but most of all day 1. I'm OK at clearing some folks, and I'm OK at picking connections out of old posts after a wolf or two is found, and....that's about it.

Sun has been giving me weird vibes though this whole game, but I can't quantify it. I think he needs the

FINGER O SUSPICION

though.

This post is villagery.

Why?

Also, I tend to find it doesn't help too much to state who you think is town.

Grr, so much idiocy, so little time to respond.

Guys, you have to take into account that the average large game on mafiascum is usually barely getting out of random voting by this point. The logic you're using to call TCS a lurker is akin to calling someone a slow reader for taking three months to get through War and Peace, because you can read 'Spot Gets His Ball Back' in five minutes.

I am not so much calling TCS a lurker, more a low content poster.

Now this sort of thing actually makes me feel better about you. Lurking in plain sight, or making posts which appear to contribute but don't actually help find scum, is something that scum consistently does more than town.

Seriously I get the fact that the games play differently here, and people have lives and stuff.

He very quickly replied to my vote for him, but posted a one line comment.

Possibly because you didn't really give a reason for your vote, which makes it hard to respond to.

Btw, whilst I'm responding to you:

You are going to look

outstandingly

wrong for this comment when my vanilla role is revealed

No town player should EVER say that they are vanilla. Saying 'my role is vanilla' = saying 'I am a vanilla townie' = claiming that role. Seriously, MS guys, I'm not wrong here, am i? If someone says 'I am vanilla' that is a claim.

If he just happened to load up the page at that time and had no time to post much else then whatever - the timing of that and subsequent "your scum hunting skills are breathtaking" post is what make me think he is the most likely scum player here right now. NOT the fact that he is "lurking", it's the content of what he has posted as well as the timing of those posts.

Attacking people based on the timing of their posts is something i kinda consider scummy. It's so easy to go, oh, he posted immediately after I mentioned him, he musta been lurking. Uh, no.

To insinuate that my reading comprehension is about on the level of a kids picture book is nice, and then to make a post saying that I am voting him for lurking - when I'm not is ironic, don'tcha think?.

This is ironic, since your reading comprehension obviously completely fails if you think that was a comment on your reading comprehension.

Matrix, heres how this game is supposed to be played:
Day 1 takes a long time so everybody can get in and joke vote for a while.

That's not why it takes a long time. The rule of thumb on MS is that a game is slow if the number of posts per day drops below one per player. It's extremely fast if it's over three. So in a game this size, you'd expect between one and three pages per day.

The first two days, you P2Pers managed to spam up the thread to the tune of 23 pages. That means a player comes along, he's expecting six pages to read up on, he has 23. This then takes him ages to read through, and makes it harder for him to contribute.

But the 23 pages you've produced, unlike the first 23 pages of a normal mafiascum game, which would normally give you enough to run at least one player up, and often to lynch, have produced basically nothing of value.

Then eventually it miraculously goes from joke voting to serious voting. 2p2ers will not know when that point is, and will have to be told by the msers when it has occurred.

When someone places a vote with a serious reason behind it. Seriously, you can't be that dense, can you?

Before the “serious” point in the game, any posts by msers that are obviously wolfish are to be ingored

How can a random vote possibly be 'obviously wolfish?' Seriously, point to one post that is 'obviously wolfish' and give a reason why. This is how games on MS get started: someone does something in the random vote stage that someone else thinks is scummy. If other people agree, they vote the original target: if they don't, they vote the person who has placed the serious vote without any good reason gets voted. Hence, here you see a lot of MSers voting Zh because he made a serious attack on StrangerCoug and SiestaGuru for making posts that were 'forced.' Now Siesta's one post before that:

For having a name I don't understand:

Vote: The Central Scrutinizer

Absolutely, 100% normal mafiascum first-post random vote.

Vote: Sun Tzu

for being the serial killer last time we played this setup.

Again, absolutely normal mafiascum random vote, nothing remotely scummy about it.

We therefore conclude that Zhaorx's reason given for voting, that their votes seem forced, is a bad one. Voting on the basis of a bad reason is scummy, therefore a couple of mafiascummers, reasonably, attacked Zhaorx for it. At which point a load of P2Pers attacked the mafiascummers, and mafiascum in general, for simply playing like reasonable mafiascum players.

Fonz wants us to believe that people are busy and cant post frequently, and/or that posting one or two posts a day is normal here. Fine, I can dig it. But Fonz also wants us to basically ignore most, if not all, the msers posts, no matter how infrequently they post.

This is not true. Fonz is arguing that it's basically impossible to get a read off of one or two short, low-content posts, such as TCS has produced here. If players continue to post without contributing, sure, it's scummy. But it often takes a while for players to get going.

TCS, in addition, is a player known for starting slow. For the sake of comparison, here are his first five posts of Mafia 64, which had the same setup. He was town in that game (I know, because I replaced him).

Only average!

I'll show you average:

vote:Albert

Random vote...

Sigh. Battle Mage, please stop distracting the town from lynching the ACTUAL scum. This is the primary problem with your playstyle. Trying to be unreadable is all fine and good, but acting like bad scum in every game gets tiresome, and is about the most unhelpful thing a townie can be.

Now, can we please cut the crap and lynch Albert? He's clearly the best lynch, unless we want to start metagaming BM by lynching him every day one... which is actually kind of appealing, now that I think of it...

And that's exactly the sort of distraction I'm talking about.

Can we get on, now?

Complains about people spamming up the thread, and states that another player needs to be lynched.

Battle Mage wrote:
lol why the hell would SK-BM be telling the town who to kill AFTER HE IS DEAD.
That makes no sense. also, i never get to be an SK


God that is such a scum tell. :\

Sarcastic comment on the quality of someone else's scumhunting.

unvote, vote:Battle Mage

Might as well get it over with today.

Votes to push a policy lynch wagon on someone for spamming up the thread. Now note, Battle Mage is noted as one of the spammiest players on MS, and he posts about a third as much as the average P2per in this game, and with more content. And it pissed TCS off so much, and in his opinion made scumhunting so much harder, that he was willing to lynch for it. Now, can you understand why he's acting like this here?

TCS is an awful lynch candidate because he is playing exactly as he always does as town at this point in a game, and that playstyle is nowhere near detrimental enough to the town to be worth policy-lynching.

This I cant dig. It stands to reason that if people are so busy that they cant get in here to post, or posting once or twice per day is acceptable, then we must pay closer attention to those posts, because they have much more meaning than if they were posting say 10-20 times per day.

Untrue; it just means games take much longer. This game, for instance, I'd imagine every MSer who signed up was reasonably expecting it to last six months. You're trying to suggest that a player is scum after about a week, and three or four posts. It just doesn't work.

Fonz can not have it both ways. If we allow people to make one or two posts every couple days, we MUST put assign more significance to the content of said posts.

Only if there is significant content, and it is scummy.

We must gain as much information from those posts as possible. Any person with a brain would not disagree with this logic.

Any person with a brain would recognise your false dichotomy.

2p2er makes a post containing some reads, a mser comes in to make his one post for the day (example, perhaps he posts slightly more, whatever) “your scumhunting abilities are breathtaking”. Now, are we saying that msers are too busy to post but have time to come in and post little quips whenever they feel like it and we are to assume that these quips have 0 reasoning behind them?

If he feels that your reason for suspecting him is ridiculous, why would he waste his breath making a detailed response? You've voted him for not having a lot of content, in three or four posts. As I've explained above, you can't do this. You're trying to play this game at a P2P type of pace.

If the post is worthless in every sense, why is the mser taking the time to get in here and post it? If we are in the joke vote stage, why bother coming in to make that remark? If we are ignoring all such posts, then how do we get past the joke vote stage?

We've been past the joke vote stage since zhaorx's 'this is forced' statement over a week ago.

Fonz is trying to sell us a bunch of horseshit.

ScottHoward is full of crap. Oh, my, how that moved the game on. And I'm even right.


Your entire scumhunting so far appears to consist in attacking Mafiascum players for playing like mafiascum players, combined with attacking the site itself for its playstyle.

All that said, I dislike how you guys are all so bewildered that you'll jump on a player who's made ONE post above those who have made SEVERAL posts. Slow to lynch, quick to ask questions, not the other way around, please.

This is a good post by Wall-E. You can't realistically expect to find scum from one post (the exception is when someone replaces in to a game later on, and does a long P2p, and actually makes arguments).

Vote: Wall-E

Don't like this unreasoned vote in response to a good post.

...and after some initial digging, you are clearly in over your head in this game, so I'm not too bothered by your lack of reasoning. Still, someone might care, so I'm going to put a question to you:

Why am I scummy?

Another good one, asks for reasons why he's being attacked. Does not resort to the countervote. Recognises the complete n00bness of hewitt.

If you want a reason here you go, my vote is currently on you because I'm tired of certainly people talking around with a superiority complex in this game. To me, that's scummy as hell, and as I find you the most arrogant, I find you the most anti-town.

Also, my vote was on matrix but I wasn't quite satisfied with laying my vote there because I don't think he's scummy anymore.

Being arrogant is not detrimental to the town (well, unless it's taken to the OMG extreme). You're acting like the kind of dumb newbie we see in pretty much every game, and being treated as such. You can be patronised, or you can be treated with the same kind of analysis we'd give an experienced player, and get lynched for all the things you're doing which make you look like scum, but for which newbieness is a significant mitigating factor.

the post you made was horrible. it doesnt make anybody bewildered.

Disagree, there is nothing scummy about that one post Wall-E made.

Vote: Wall-E

You see this? Hewitt has voted and failed to state a reason. Don't do this around me or I start sniffing at your doorstep.

maybe it was a joke vote. seems theyre quite popular around here.
why does it bother you so much? (rest assured though, im a huge fan of players giving reasoning)

Again, we've been out of the random vote stage for nine days. And the reason it bothers people is that in certain circumstances, voting without giving reasons can indicate a lack of good reasons. (It can also reveal certain things which are protown; however, hewitt's response then indicated the former). If you don't give a reason, players can't defend themselves, and other players can't tell if you've got a decent case.

Why do I like players to give reasons when they vote?

I... I've never been asked that before. It's sorta like being asked why water is wet.

With nothing else to go on but bolded names this game would be nigh-impossible. It therefore behooves the town for the players to have policies which tend to pressure other players into providing information. Any information provided by scum is a lie, and it is by looking for said lies we find them.

LET'S STOP TALKING META AND START DISCUSSING WHY I'M SCUMMY PLEASE!

walle, you seem to be the abnormal mser.
up until your arrival, all attempts to get some interaction going was shot down because it was too early in the game. we were told that the joke vote stage lasts quite a while and any reasons attached to said joke votes should basically be ignored. zhaorax made a read that some peoples comments seemed forced, and things got crazy, and then stef, aka, mr aggressive, quit.

Because saying that a normal random vote, with a normal random vote reason behind it, feels forced, itself feels forced.

i'm waiting for the joke post stage to end before i post any content.

You yourself ended it with your third post. The random vote stage basically ends as soon as anyone places a vote which claims to have a genuine scumhunting-related reason behind it.

If you want a reason here you go, my vote is currently on you because I'm tired of certainly people talking around with a superiority complex in this game. To me, that's scummy as hell, and as I find you the most arrogant, I find you the most anti-town.

Also, my vote was on matrix but I wasn't quite satisfied with laying my vote there because I don't think he's scummy anymore.

What happened to omg_im_innocent_wtf's superiority complex?

Agreed. There is a genuine contradiction here. If Wall-E's superiority complex was enough to elicit a vote, OMG's much bigger superiority complex should have done.

See, on OMG's part I'm not sure if it's a superiority complex or whether he's just kind of crazy.

The two aren't exclusive.

I like a Wall-E lynch less than a Hitch or Scrutinizer lynch now.

I'm moving him to "neutral" read.Some of his posts seem bad, but he's interacting and says he's high volume poster, so I'll give him a pass for now.

Reasons for either? I could actually see a Hitch lynch. I remain opposed to a Scrutinizer lynch.

Genuine question here, does a high volume poster mean he's less likely to be scum to you? No snide intended.

If I may add my $0.02...

Obviously, 'High volume' is relative. Wall-E is a high volume poster by MS.net standards... you P2P guys are off the charts,.

Posting a large amount of content gives you more chance to contradict yourself, or otherwise make a mistake that can give you away as scum. The more genuine content there is, the easier it is for town to get accurate reads on other players. Town obviously want the other players to read them accurately; scum want the opposite.

However, even if Wall-E posting a lot is no indication of him being town, it means that we've more chance of him slipping up later. Whereas a lurker, if allowed to continue lurking, will never give you anything to go on. The skill, as scum, is to give the appearance of creating content, without actually helping the town find scum.

So lurkey players, or players who spam up the thread with lots of post and little content (therefore raising the noise: signal ratio), are good day one lynches because even if they are not scum, they make the town's job of finding scum harder. (If scum are allowed to lurk without fear of reprisal, they will).

Usually, on day one, you can find someone who exhibits that kind of behaviour, along with one or two things that make them more likely than average to be scum. That kind of player is a good day one lynch.

ok, I still haven't seen anything to change my mind from yesterday.

How about everyone post a list of 'acceptable' lynches, so we can maybe consolodate wagons?

unvote, vote: Hitch

This consolidates the read I've been getting on you. You're trying to sound reasonable, which you're doing pretty well, whilst trying to get other players to make the running. You don't force the issue if people disagree with you. You, my friend, look like peloton scum.

Strongest feeling/read so far is OMGIMIW is some kind of gimmick account and is just poking the locals for entertainment value and should not be lynched today. (but maybe a wagon target on d2 or d3 if we get there )

Just to note: OMG has been a player on scum since before I joined. Whatever he is, he's not a gimmick; i just think he is that arrogant.

What does "fancy play syndrome" refer to?

Don't vote without stating your reason. It's how we catch scum.

I think I have an idea. Also, where is atakdog?

Caboose, Norse, Mada, Sun Tzu, matrix and atakdog all need to decide one of OMG, Matrix or Wall-E imo as those seem to be the only lynches on the table at the moment and the participation seems to have dropped off so we should be all about getting to day 2.

False trichotomy. Nice. There is no particular reason to narrow it down to those particular wagons.

Sun, join me on Hitch.

I am going to follow Sun for a while and see how that turns out.

vote: Hitch

Good vote, terrible reason.

seeing as i havent been lynched or replaced...

unvote vote wall e

he seems like a worthless cunt rage bitch so fuck it i want him to die

Mod: If the c-word isn't modkill-worthy, what is?

SC: I remember you saying that too. Can you clarify? What case do you see?

It's mostly the question-dodging that I think is hurting you the most.

]

I don't see what he's dodged.

I have to agree I mean if you're on our side I would think you'd make a little bit more effort to help the town instead of just ignoring 23 pages of what you deem to be unimportant.

To be fair, the noise:signal in those pages is horrific.

Wow, that took me like an hour and a half.

[StrangerCoug]

SC: I remember you saying that too. Can you clarify? What case do you see?

It's mostly the question-dodging that I think is hurting you the most.

]

I don't see what he's dodged.

Again, I was looking at another post when I read that. Ask ScottHoward.

And let me clarify what I mean by "seeing the case on" somebody: When I say that, I mean that I understand why some people think someone's actions are scummy, regardless of whether I think so myself. I would rather lynch omg_im_innocent_wtf over Wall-E. I'm increasingly losing support for the lynch, however.

[ScottHoward]

if i wasnt drunk posting from my phone right now, i would have a bunch of things to say in response to fonz, but as it stands, i will just say he plays mafia like an idiot

[ScottHoward]

in the morning,i will elaborate

[StrangerCoug]

if i wasnt drunk posting from my phone right now, i would have a bunch of things to say in response to fonz, but as it stands, i will just say he plays mafia like an idiot

Perhaps when you sober up you'll realize how good he is (I think, anyway).

[ScottHoward]

yeah, hes a fucking genius

[darkdude]

seeing as i havent been lynched or replaced...

Well now you are...dead, anyways.

omg_im_innocent_wtf, a Vanilla Townie, has been MODKILLED.

DAY CONTINUES.

There are 19 Alive, so 10 to Lynch.

[hewitt]

Being arrogant is not detrimental to the town (well, unless it's taken to the OMG extreme). You're acting like the kind of dumb newbie we see in pretty much every game, and being treated as such. You can be patronised, or you can be treated with the same kind of analysis we'd give an experienced player, and get lynched for all the things you're doing which make you look like scum, but for which newbieness is a significant mitigating factor

I disagree that arrogance isn't detrimental to the town because it clearly states that you're me before the town and in the end it's a town win not individual. We win if the town wins and throwing fellow townspeople under the bus is pretty damn scummy. Now I love how you saying I can be patronized because to my recollection I don't seem to see anybody besides yourself and Wall-E ragging on me for being a newbie. So saying you (a collective you, meaning you and everyone else) are going to look down on me and judge me for it would be quite wrong. If anybody else thinks that a relatively unexperienced player like myself is really hurting this game and contributing nothing than you can speak up about it too. But if I do say so myself I've made a couple of pretty good points this game and I'm hanging in there with the rest so lay off on the "noobness", doesn't make much sense.

[hewitt]

Oops, and I did not mean to include the Fonz's paragraph in there with my response (which is the second paragraph in case anyone doesn't know that).

[Sun Tzu]

Based on what Fonz said about TCS's play, I no longer want to lynch him at this point. I can't really trust my weak tone reads on players I don't know.

I can trust my read on Hitch though.

unvote; vote Hitch

One thing I want to comment on is the idea that zhaorx's flippant comment ended the joke-vote phase. That's ridiculous. Even if he really thinks those posts seemed forced (and I think I see where he's coming from), that doesn't mean he thinks it's a strong read or that all other random voting needs to stop while we decide whether zhaorx or those posters are scum.

I think there were some other posts I wanted to respond to (I was only on my phone yesterday) so I'll look through the thread some more.

[Sun Tzu]

What are your reads then and why do you only show up when someone mentions you?

Because I'm waiting for a bunch of you fuckers to die so that we can get on with the real game. How am I supposed to scumhunt with 29 pages of fluff?

This post was my main issue with TCS. It seems so over the top with indignation or anger for a game that it seemed fake to me.

whatever

chill out

[Sun Tzu]

Sun Tzu: What if everyone was doing what you are doing? Nobody would be voting for their true #1 suspect. If you think you are right about Hewitt, you should vote for him, because A) it will net you cred with the town if you DO turn out to have been right all along and B) that way the voting record is accurate to suspicions of the townies.

Do you disagree? If so, why? If not, why not?

To everyone else voting for me: Please state a reason for your vote.

If everone did what I was doing, then everyone would have a list of lynch candidates ordered by their preference. That's a lot more info than everyone just voting for their #1 choice. It would also help us move this game along.

[Sun Tzu]

If I was choosing the lynch myself, I would lynch Hitch.

Then how come you don't vote for him?

Because no one seems to agree with me.

Well why should we vote for Hitch?

He looked good at first. Then I noticed a specific tell I have on Hitch. I don't want to give it away because it's very reliable and would be easy for him to fix if he knew what it was.

His case against matrix is bad, since Hitch was saying Matrix would never post something. Hitch doesn't know matrix well enough to say that and I think he's wrong about that anyway.

I also think Fonz's point is pretty good. Although consolidating wagons is a good idea, it does look like Hitch is trying to get other people to do the pushing and he's trying to limit our wagons to those 3. If Hitch is mafia, I think there's a good chance that all 3 of those players are town.

[Sun Tzu]

I'm disappointed that a lot of poggers seem to have forgotten about this game. I'd like to hear from atakdog in particular.

[SiestaGuru]

Loved the post fonz, brilliant.

You have convinced me that hitch is at least a reasonable choice for a vote, so I guess my FOSes can go away then.

[Hitch]

fonz, please look at how matrix got to be a wagon in the first place, because you say I'm letting others do the pushing, I don't think I cound have pushed any harder for a matrix wagon, I was also extremely vocal that OMG was a bad lynch.

I know I suggested that we consolidate on wagons that included OMG's but that was because there was no way I was getting people to drop the hardon they had about OMG.

I'm not overly concerned about votes for me, however bad they are.

In particular, Sun's post where he says he has an acurate scumtell on me, I can link you all to games played as recently as this week where he has thought I was scum and I was not. He thinks I am evil in EVERY single game we play.

[Hitch]

In addition, I am naturally indisposed to the us vs them spite bickering that has coloured this game, and it was never my intention for that to become the flavour of this game when I signed up, and that has reduced my participation slightly, fwiw.

[ScottHoward]

hey all, just got in
omg was village? excellent work msers! excellent work! you guys are all so fucking smart
i will be interested in voting for everybody who had a lame excuse for voting omg. "because he voted for himself" is a lame excuse. hi walle!

[ScottHoward]

OK guys, sorry I haven't posted the last two days... they were the last two days of my final, massively important placement, so I spent thursday working my ass off and friday celebrating. Anyway, back to the grind...

matrix. i will try

fonz, please give us youre thoughts on walle

To this point, he's made two posts. Two posts are not likely to produce anything on which I can give detailed 'thoughts'

though his OGML vote is... well, I wouldn't do it

, but I can understand it.

why wouldnt you do it? because its not good strategy? then why do you understand it?
its either good or bad, if it was good, you would do it. you didnt do it. it appears you disapprove of it. appears you view it as anti-town, yet no bad thoughts toward walle. odd.

[ScottHoward]

Now this sort of thing actually makes me feel better about you. Lurking in plain sight, or

making posts which appear to contribute but don't actually help find scum

, is something that scum consistently does more than town.

this describes pretty much all of fonzs posts

[ScottHoward]

No town player should EVER say that they are vanilla. Saying 'my role is vanilla' = saying 'I am a vanilla townie' = claiming that role. Seriously, MS guys, I'm not wrong here, am i? If someone says 'I am vanilla' that is a claim.

no, youre absolutely right. my question for you is why havent you voted for or used the mighty fos on the msers who have essentially claimed village? why only matrix? you are being inconsistent with your retarted logic.

[ScottHoward]

Attacking people based on the timing of their posts is something i kinda consider scummy. It's so easy to go, oh, he posted immediately after I mentioned him, he musta been lurking. Uh, no.

he wasnt lurking?

lets talk about this a little more.
player A hasnt posted in a while. isnt expected to, because thats how it is around here. Player B posts and suggests Player A could be a wolf. then player A shows up almost immediately (your words, not mine cause i dont remember the exact time delay) and makes some worthless post (claiming village in the process actually, but thats a whole other story), and you are going to tell us all that he wasnt lurking? just by coincidence he showed up and responded to only that post? and how do you know if hes lurking or not? believe it or not, theres as much validity in what matrix says as what you say, no matter how smart you think you are.
my opinion is that he was watching the thread (also known as lurking), and if the post wasnt made suspecting him, we wouldnt have heard from him.

[ScottHoward]

That's not why it takes a long time. The rule of thumb on MS is that a game is slow if the number of posts per day drops below one per player. It's extremely fast if it's over three. So in a game this size, you'd expect between one and three pages per day.

The first two days,

you P2Pers managed to spam up the thread

to the tune of 23 pages. That means a player comes along, he's expecting six pages to read up on, he has 23. This then takes him ages to read through, and makes it harder for him to contribute.

But the 23 pages you've produced, unlike the first 23 pages of a normal mafiascum game, which would normally give you enough to run at least one player up, and often to lynch, have produced basically nothing of value.

it was not 23 pages of spam, we were all playing the game, and there is plenty of information in there. one thing we learned was that it was more likely that omg was village than wolf. if you geniuses wouldve opened your eyes, you would have realized it as well. but as it was, msers would rather policy lynch. good work there.