Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[JohnnyFarrar]

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, Hello!

Just got my pms and I'm in class so y'all should say words at me. Currently reading instead of talking advantage of the fine tutelage my professor is providing.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Still at school so my catch up is gonna be slow and piecemeal. Nor that anyone's here to care right now :C

VOTE: ETL

Being too knee-jerky

Oh no guys I'm way knee jerky I'm so dead

Anyways first five pages are about as useful as first give pages generally are.

Early thoughts include Mina seems like she's stretching, but whether that's scum trying too hard vs. town trying to end RVS remains to be seen.

BPC uses a lot of exclamation points and Quil is cutesy, and I want to look into their metas to see if these two things are as pronounced in their town games because psychology blah blah blah

Mara looked like she was trying to step on people's toes

I don't particularly like the way Espy switches from talking directly to people to talking in general at everyone here.

Not sure why Alch is getting votes for being useless, he's far from the only one and I don't see anything else really scummy

BB is either reaction testing or just no fun. Maybe both.

A couple people haven't posted yet -_-
... One of them is my slot -_-


To be continued ~

[JohnnyFarrar]

I don't particularly like the way Espy switches from talking directly to people to talking in general at everyone here.

Why don't you like it?

Gives off an air of "Can you guys believe this?"

Like he's looking for support to see if he can start pushing that person.

[JohnnyFarrar]

One of those fancy votes I've been hearing about would have probably helped

[JohnnyFarrar]

Next five pages

Enter Patrick. He's a wet blanket. Hooray. His Alch attack looks bad to me, but that could just be coming from my knowledge that he's town.

Alch is broadcasting newbtells on all wavelengths and people are attacking him for it -_- his response to quil was really good too -_- HINDSIGHT

Mina gets kudos for actually looking up Alch's GTKAS, and also continued hunting throughout these pages. Not really alignment indicative, but I'd rather she continued living. Though the weird condescension here makes me think he was a little too willing to lynch a person who was clearly not all the way good at Mafia yet. Meh. I could be convinced to vote Mina.

BB with the same defense I would make. Does right mean town? Then makes a terrible argument. Does wrong mean scum? Basically my problem with this whole minimalistic "vote who I think is right and be difficult about everything else" playstyle is that it makes it really hard for me to think of you as anything but scum when you're so wrong. Hopefully you pick it up in the future.

I can't think of Quil as anything but town thanks to Mina's convincing.

This game is looking fun

[JohnnyFarrar]

Almost hallway there ;-;

(I should probably figure out what all this token nonsense is, and just read the TM rules in general)
Also the general "my scumreads are just PoE because everyone's SO TOWNY" is scary to me right now. Also the use of sheeping as a dirty word and the use of the word misrep at all makes me upset. Sheeping is fine and only bad players misrep.

BPC's unhappiness with Mina's townread on my slot seems weird to me, given that BPC wasn't particularly advocating for my scuminess. Simple disdain for others' townreads reads as scum to me.

BB said this and I dunno what it means.

Quil seems uncharacteristically hostilehere and I don't know what to think about it. Then he just flies off the deep end? What is happening?

Espy says (don't worry guys this absence has been site wide) and that irks me. Also makes it clear he's doing ISOs in alphabetical order. If small scumreads keep piling up I'm going to vote him just for the pleasure of not dealing with him in a potential lylo situation.

Cutting this short at page 14 because phone is dying. Bbl.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Baby those reads stopped on page 14. You want me to vote on 20 page old information?

Anyways, both of those tells represent and defensiveness and cautiousness that didn't make sense from you at the time, as you had few people casting more that a sideways glance you. That sort of casual defensiveness combined with the reaction I just got (read: I called the reads small in the very passage you quoted) has me feeling right on the money now.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Confession! I started playing Monster Hunter on the train home and literally didn't stop until just now. My bad.

can you explain the dichotomy between "I'm having a hard time seeing Quil as town thanks to Mina" and "Meh, I could be persuaded to vote Mina"?

A) Should read "I'm having a hard time seeing Quil as

anything but

town," you made me go back to see if I made a typo.

B) Right =/= Town, Wrong =/= Scum. It was what I was coyly poking at when talking about why I didn't like BB.

FTR, my dig at Alchemist was because at the time, I thought he was scum, not a bad player--his asking me about Quilford read to me as self-preservationist "Fuck, I need a town counterwagon to save myself. Can I wheedle you onto this one?"

If you are town, this hurts. Quil would have been such a shitty choice for that.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Starting at page 15

By the way, can people let me know if I'm spamming too much or walling too much? I'm aware that this is somewhat content-dense for a nine-player game, and I don't want to make this too hard to catch up on.

Honey it's too late.

Patrick's dive into Alch's meta would look good if he had anything to show for it. AND THEN ALCH CORRECTED HIM ON SCUM META JESUS CHRIST WHY DID YOU GUYS *from this point on I will no longer be commenting on how I didn't think Alch was a good lynch unless I find something scummy* His series of posts on 17 read as genuine to me.

Quil's Mina towncase looks like "I agree with him so he's town" which is pretty arrogant.

Espy comes in with a Patrick vote that I actually don't mind.

HOLY SHIT TIRED GOING TO BED REMEMBER PAGE 19

[JohnnyFarrar]

I mean it woulda been funny if scum quickhammered

[JohnnyFarrar]

Quil is laying it on so thick. Reading day two is gonna be funny or sad. Angry catbug made me laugh though.

Patrick is sooooooo boooooooring. All of his reads are great and well thought out and logical in a way that tells me nothing about his alignment at all.

BB's deafness to those who disagree with him is annoying. Forget what I said about Espy sucking in lylo, BB would ruin lylo for town. His stance that my slot is scum regardless of Alch lynch given between pages 24 and 25 combined with his "I'm not voting anyone but Alch today" stance reeks to me of setting up future lynches, which I don't like.

BPC is so hard to read guys

Espy's vote on Mara is pretty damn confusing considering Alch was town. Can't figure out why it happened and the reasons stated are pretty bad.

WOAH NO REASON MARA CLAIM. THE FUCK?

Holy shit the day turned into a disaster after that. Pursuing this and starting a new piece

[JohnnyFarrar]

We need to lynch the watch-immune goon today. That's the only way to keep trackerMara alive.

If we lynch the watch-immune goon, the watcher watches you. It would be suicide for the other scum to attack you because they'll get caught.

These two posts might actually be the most damning pieces of evidence against Alchemist, actually.

HE'S TRYING TO WHEEDLE TOWN INTO KEEPING MARA ALIVE.

The fuck is this? Is it a joke?

Holy shit guys I knew the end of that day was a shit show but Alch claimed VT before he fucking left so no one would feel bad about hammering. I'm just fucking sad about this at this point.

@Mina would you characterize yourself as someone who often acts against mob mentality? ALSO CHRIST STOP BEING ALL OVER THE MAP (this is me freaking out about your ETL flip thing in 760

Alch's 753 is another good argument for Quil town. That read's probably not going away.

DAY ONE END #postit

[JohnnyFarrar]

So hey, apart from this nagging inability to read, I'm here and caught up and healthy and ready to play.

Will answer any questions regarding my predecessor that I can, but the best defense I can give him is that, looking at this team chat, he was genuinely busy.

So here's where my head is: Everyone should talk out your reads. I don't want to just lay down and take the lynch today because there are at least three people in this game that would make lylo a nightmare and if like to spare whichever poor bastards make it that far from that pain.

For me, until we talk it out more I'd be most comfortable lynching from a pool of BPC, BB, Mina, or Espy. Patrick just hasn't done anything worthy of a scumread despite boring me to death and you can try to convince me that Quil's scum but you'd better have a detective hat on.

Current best bet is
VOTE: BPC

That last bit of day one was fucked and he was here and able to post and did disappointingly little.

Gonna go read my team chat now and laugh at Cheetory for being in a big game

[JohnnyFarrar]

Aww Quil <3

Are you in full on waiting mode? I don't remember where your vote is

[JohnnyFarrar]

Why?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Figuring out where everyone is:

BB has a vote on me but seems to be paralyzed with indecision

Quil is in wait mode

Mina has questions for me and is likely chasing her tail somewhere

Espy is still voting me? brb checking... Yup totally

BPC and Patrick are MIA

Tell me when you're here, anyone, I can probably come up with a dumb question or two for you.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Thaaaat's a hard question to answer. I would probably sa logical because my gut is wrong more often than not, though I've been known to be bad at ignoring it.

As to your tonal argument, it makes a bit of sense, but I entered this game knowing my slot was in trouble and my lynch would mean lylo, and on top of that I saw everyone screaming things like "my scumreads are PoE" and such, so that may have something to do with me nitpicking everyone to death.

Alch is pretty easy to defend in hindsight, but I genuinely have no idea how that whole day went by without anyone even coming close to a counter wagon.


My town -> Scum order:

Quil
Patrick
Mina
BB
Esp
BPC

My problem with BPC is lurking in a sense but it's more for the opportunistic time he lurked toward the end of the last day phase. Showing up and being all "yeah I'm down for a Alch lynch" and then taking no initiative beyond that looks like "I'm here but want no accountability" to me.

My townread of Quil is probably bigger than I even originally stated. What I said was something along the lines of "Mina has convinced me that Quil is town," but the more I think about it the less scum Quil makes sense. I don't particularly see scum going so hard at a newb townie day one, when he cracks it looks like genuine anger, and that semantic argument with Espy day one looked like quality "scum wouldn't keep this going" work.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Johnny are you saying you see a scum team of me/bpc? that makes sense to you...?

I don't do associative reads until I have a reason to. Trying to find teams is something that's turns me into a drooling idiot.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I thought "oh I haven't checked in in nearly 24 hours, maybe someone posted!"

No.

No I was wrong.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Tired and grumpy

JohnnyFarrar: I appreciate that you've contributed more so far than serra did for the entire game.

Here 4 u babe

Can you talk me through why you're able to make that many scathing comments about my play and somehow have me as the second to bottom on your list? You call me lame and boring several times, you don't like my attack on Alchemist, you think my metadive on him was useless, you don't mind ETLs vote on me, you think I'm posting in a way that doesn't tell you anything about my alignment. You don't seem to mind being abrasive, so why be political about this?

As stated in my response to Mina (I think) I sort of came into this game with a mindset (that I still sort of have) that I'm everyone's only scumread in a sea of townreads, so I set out to be nitpicky. My nitpicks with you are enough that I don't necessarily want to call you town, but compared to everyone above you on my suspect list, you're the most likely to talk me out of voting you. I've got a nagging feeling you could just be good scum looking townie compared to messy town, but others looks varying degrees of actually scummy.

BPC uses a lot of exclamation points and Quil is cutesy, and I want to look into their metas to see if these two things are as pronounced in their town games because psychology blah blah blah

have you done anything on this?

Nope! Seemed like a good idea at the time but my reads on the both of you are decent enough and I'm tired. Unless you think you have an answer?

BPC's unhappiness with Mina's townread on my slot seems weird to me, given that BPC wasn't particularly advocating for my scuminess. Simple disdain for others' townreads reads as scum to me.

Why does this read as scum to you?

Scum being casually against townreads on town players early in the game just makes sense to me. It was the kind of low key protest that didn't draw attention but still tried to leave my slot open for votes.

My problem with BPC is lurking in a sense but it's more for the opportunistic time he lurked toward the end of the last day phase. Showing up and being all "yeah I'm down for a Alch lynch" and then taking no initiative beyond that looks like "I'm here but want no accountability" to me.

Yes, I've been lurking. There are a number of personal reasons for it but never-the-less, my feelings towards the lynch yesterday as it was happening was pretty much meh sure. I had a few bits where I pointed out things I took as scummy from alchemist and had been fine with the lynch for the just of the day. If I were in the game more at that point, I would have been fine hammering.

It's fine that you say that, but you were here at the time, and did nothing to argue for or against it. It's textbook "look guys I'm here! I didn't lurk my way through a horrific town mislynch!" without actually doing anything.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I actually said I was fine with the alchemist lynch near the end of the day, just no inclination to rush the day end at that point (here).

There were already two claims and there was no counter wagon. That's rushing?

[JohnnyFarrar]

7) JF, read on BBmolla. Explanation for why it's not a town read on BBmolla. Go!

My read is "This man ain't said anything useful, and now that he was so wrong on day one everyone's ok with him barely posting anything on day 2 because he's sad or something." I've seen nothing even close to content come from him (much less anything townie), and unlike Patrick he doesn't even seem to be playing to win.

Why is he town?

[JohnnyFarrar]

And then Quil stated my own case better than I could.

I'm gonna have to put my reading glasses on because I'm not fully certain what Quil/Patrick are talking about in regards to BB's fake hammer

[JohnnyFarrar]

Checking in, trying to think of something I can say to get this game going that I haven't already said....

HEY YOU FUCKS GET IN HERE

[JohnnyFarrar]

Back with a new avatar, waiting with bated breath

[JohnnyFarrar]

Patrick should be here soon? To like, vote or ask questions or something?

Mina, is that you saying you're not going to make any more progress?

Esp, remark on Mina. Or Patrick. Or make a vote. Or better explain your current one. Something.

Quil, still waiting?

BB I miss you.

BPC I'm fairly confident you're scum. Do you have anything that may convince me someone else is scummier?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Example of when I called your bad play scummy?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Did I say that was scummy at any point during that? Or are you one if those people who thinks null tells don't exist?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Well start contributing and I'll start reading you like a grown up

[JohnnyFarrar]

"I post a lot which means I contribute a lot. There's no way that someone could be conflicted between thinking I'm scum who faked being super confident on a shitty town wagon and using that as an excuse to stop posting when he flipped townie and thinking I'm just town who's clearly either too busy or too bad to be playing this game." - BBmolla 2015

[JohnnyFarrar]

is being an ass hole a town tell for him or something

Aaaaaand sig'd

Johnny with the end of yesterday I still find it hard to believe you read my posts and thought "I HAVE NO HINT OR INDICATION OF HIM BEING TOWN OR SCUM AT ALL"

Is conflicting reads hard to understand? Are you always super confident about everything? Because bullshit.

[JohnnyFarrar]

That's a false dichotomy if I've ever seen one. I've already said that I came into this game looking to pick holes in people, and BB getting town reads left and right is fucking baffling. I don't know what his alignment is because he hasn't done anything in this game to really tell me what his alignment is. The things I know are:

1. He's put forth more emotion than content
2. If he's town he's bad at it
3. If he's scum he's winning

See my problem with the slot? It's not a scumread, but it's definitely not a townread. So how 'bout this, anyone who has any read on him whatsoever, tell me what and why, and until then I'll just be stating lovingly into his eyes waiting for him to actually do something.

[JohnnyFarrar]

1. He's put forth more emotion than content

What does this mean to you?

Exactly what I've been saying. nothing.

2. If he's town he's bad at it

Okay.... so?

See above

3. If he's scum he's winning

Does this mean he

looks

town to you? Or that you don't like the fact that he is being townread? Because what that tells me is that you feel threatened by these townreads. And if you are scum, townreads on town ARE a threat to you and you would justified, so if he's indeed town, kinda makes you more likely to be scum.

It means he looks like nothing, and if he's scum that's bad for us.

See my problem with the slot? It's not a scumread, but it's definitely not a townread.

Honestly I'm not buying this BS.

Gonna type this out real slow so you can go ahead and read it real slow. He has done nothing to look town or scum to me because he's not playing the game. His current strategy is bad and he doesn't seem to be trying to win as either alignment. The best

feeling

I can communicate to you about his alignment is a gut read, and I'm not gonna give you that because gut reads at this stage would be ludicrous.

The silly notion that I somehow have to have a stance on him is confusing at best, and scummy at worst. So again I'll ask, why is he town? My ears are open, because honestly I'm starting to suspect that you don't have an answer.

[JohnnyFarrar]

What makes town any more likely than scum to fake hammer?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Sorry you've got a migraine. When you get back tell me if this:

"I don't think scum would bother with a fake hammer, and specifically don't think BBscum would bother with a fake hammer when it would be easier for him to lurk it out. "

Is still your entire basis for the townread. Because "scum BB would be lazier" is a weird thing to go to the mat for

[JohnnyFarrar]

Is that coming from like Meta knowledge or?

[JohnnyFarrar]

My bad, didn't even see it. Tunnel vision on Esp apparently.

I mean I get giving him some points for looking genuine (because he did). I don't particularly find that a strong tell beyond like the beginning of day one.

[JohnnyFarrar]

It's not less relevant, it's just other tells are far stronger and therefore make more of a difference in how I read people.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Gimme some reads with reasons attached

[JohnnyFarrar]

Sorry to see BPC go. Hopefully that team will find a replacement soon.

BB, does your remark on me mean you're checking my meta, cuz that oughtta be fun

Mina, how much would you say you Meta dive out of "paranoia" as scum?

Where's your head Quil?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Is that coming from like Meta knowledge or?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Didn't read the whole ISO because it's big (and was super confused because I thought he was in a hydra but figured it out) but I can see what you're getting at, Mina. Two holes I could poke in reading his current scum game from that one is the fact that it's so old and the fact that he had to reconcile with N's game. Still on the Quil town train though.

Esp I missed (and still can't find) your answer to my meta question. Part of it is that i can't read, I'm sure, but spell it out for me. Have you played with/read BB in the past?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Welcome Brian. Have you gotten to the depressing part yet?

[JohnnyFarrar]

-Most recent meta of JF replacing into games both as town and as scum.

At work but I'll work in this. Haven't played much in a while so it may take a minute ;-;

[JohnnyFarrar]

Replaced into these three games as town recently, but haven't replaced any scum since I returned to the site after a year or so absence around a year ago. I don't remember if I've even ever replaced scum, but I'm currently digging through my old old games

[JohnnyFarrar]

Oooh found one! http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23100

[JohnnyFarrar]

I'd say take your time but deadlines and stuff

[JohnnyFarrar]

Right?

[JohnnyFarrar]

So you two getting anything from this?

[JohnnyFarrar]

The point of that question was I read the latest page and it was meh, so I was hoping you guys were going somewhere with it.

Esp is confusing. I've seen a few small tells from her that indicate scumminess, but it's mostly just she confuses me (hence the whole 'she would suck in lylo' thing)

[JohnnyFarrar]

Hey Johnny, can you link the town game here you're most proud of?

I mean, I'm at the point in Mafia where if I'm not satisfied with my game I replace out, so most every game that I've finished I'm way into. For my proudest moment I'd say vengeful killing the two shot in nightless vengeful, but that's probably not what you're looking for....

[JohnnyFarrar]

JF, did you see any tells from ETL that indicate towniness? Which particular tells indicate scumminess rather than just confusing you (forgive me if you've mentioned some in your catchup).

Can't think if any right now, too late and lazy to think about it. Ask me again tomorrow

[JohnnyFarrar]

FUCKING.
VOTE: Esp

Not willing to risk a counter claim right now, and don't want to bet on Brian lying because BC PC did replace out. People get in here now.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I didn't claim anything? I meant if Brian is lying then he shouldn't be counterclaimed.

@Mina The only thing I can think of that could be considered townie from ETL is the conviction with which she posts (Like she's not afraid of getting lynched).

[JohnnyFarrar]

Quil how did we jump from "Johnny for town IMO" to me being your top lynch preference? You should vote ETL instead

[JohnnyFarrar]

Point taken.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Claim.

VT. Thought that was obvious.

[JohnnyFarrar]

But why did you say the whole thing about "not willing to risk a counterclaim" in the first place as a VT?

Because I was under the impression that having the real watcher alive and still hidden would be best, but what Patrick said made sense