Mod Error Mafia [TM2015] - Game Over

[Rhinox]

Hi everyone!

I was a limited rolecop before the reroll. I could learn if my target's role was normal or not normal. I also knew a vanilla townie existed and was aligned with the town.

At least we don't have to waste time talking about tokens.

Actually my team is curious to know how tokens were spent, even though they ended up not affecting alignments.

Is the score actually a game mechanic or something else? Aren't game mechanics like that usually described by the mod in the rules somewhere? I initially assumed it just had something to do with the team mafia points or penalties or whatever. In any case, I don't know anything about it.

And finally, VOTE: LLD

[Rhinox]

I just realized hated was a modifier and not just ns being all emo "people hate me" or something.

why would we PL who, again?
if any, PL ns, he's hated and stuff.

shos are you typically for or against policy lynching?

[Rhinox]

2. Im always against - here too.

why would you suggest an alternative PL if you were completely against PLing?

Couple thoughts from my team:

Oversoul thinks Reck's double posting of "mobile posting" was weird, but laughed at some of your posts and called it "typical reck".

My team is currently split on Ceph - one teamate thinks ceph is probably town because he's active and wants to play and would be drained from having a scum role, but another teamate says that Ceph prefers scum roles.

---

LLD, as town what do you hope to gain by insulting everyone? And complaining about activity less than 24 hours into the game roughly 6 hours after your first post in the game? I mean, if this game is so far beneath you feel free to bugger off and swap with one of your teamates.

[Rhinox]

This doesn't make sense. First off, he posted it so early in the game that there wasn't even anything else for him to try and avoid talking about. Second, something something starting a policy lynch is a null tell.

Driving the conversation towards theory/setup/speculation allows scum to not contribute anything to the game. I've hidden behind it several times as scum. It's not about what he was avoiding THERE, it's about the direction he was heading. We have now had several pages of people claiming roles and wondering AHHH WHERE ARE THE OLD ROLE CLAIMS and it's just silly.

Why would you post your previous role in your first post in the thread if this was how you felt about discussing previous roles?

[Rhinox]

It's been too long since I've played to rely on meta too heavily. I can't even figure out who you were in those 2 games you linked too . I'll just take your word for it/rely on my teammates for most meta things.

Speaking of players I actually do have familiarity with, where is the Cupcake? He posted in another game since this one started?

Also, I think we should lynch shos.

VOTE: shos

[Rhinox]

oh I just noticed the scores are doing things

[Rhinox]

minus for votes cast, plus for votes received?

[Rhinox]

also, not like copper's posting on this page

[Rhinox]

minus for votes cast, plus for votes received?

Looks it.

Almost makes me want to vote 48 more times to see what happens.

That's not quite it. The numbers don't work.

I did not suggest a PL, I was just saying that there was no reason to PL who, and I didn't get why that was even named. If anything, a policy lynch may be acceptable on a hated person.

"Why Who, why not notscience?" is not what I'd expect to hear for someone that is totally against policy lynching.

[Rhinox]

I'll quote you what I wrote:

I fail to see any difference between your exact quote and my paraphrase of your quote

@Rhinox
Qualify your statements, you don't like as in you find the scummy or on a personal level, and what posting in particular?

1)

at the moment I'd lynch one of Reck/Who but would I hammer one of them? Hell no.

This doesn't make any sense to me. You're OK lynching one of Reck or Who but you don't want to be the one to hammer? Or what are you actually saying? Just seems overly cautious / going-with-the-flow-y. Why are you afraid of taking a solid stance?

2)

I don't appreciate questions on how I choose to play, unless you want to make them alignment relevant?

This doesn't make any sense to me either. What are you trying to say? Why is asking about how you choose to play off limits?

Self-meta defense alert!

Vote: Copper

This seems super lazy. Please don't be scum T-bone because I was really looking forward to playing together.

[Rhinox]

heh. even I got that one.

(it was a joke)

[Rhinox]

heh. even I got that one.

(it was a joke)

I only ever see her in hydras, and I don't like to play games with hydras in them, so etc

I was more referring to the fact that ffery is voteless in the large theme, but I guess that was just unintended irony?

[Rhinox]

Re: 202. You didn't purposely not quote the post in which I elaborated did you?

No, I purposely did not quote the post where you immediately started backtracking after Cephrir called you out.

As a start, these should be repeated in case anyon missed this

Why exactly did you feel a need to quote these?

shos is trying to hard. The vote on ceph is really bad. questioning recks srs vote on cabd is really bad.

[Rhinox]

Prod ackowledged. Will be back to a computer later today. Sorry.

[Rhinox]

OK so just for future refernece I'm going to announce a standing

limited access every weekend.

I don't have much computer access over the weekends, but I'll still try to post when I can. Since prod period is 48hrs I just don't want to be prodded every weekend.

Oversoul gave me some thoughts recently on the game. Some of the highlights:

-thinks notscience is town, mainly due to his discussion with reck regarding Cabd.
-thinks Ceph and ns are right in their suspicions about Reck jumping on Cabd too early; has/had townread on reck though but its not as strong as initially; later says he can't read reck for shit (neither can I, IIRC)
-thinks copper is likely to be town, which disagrees with my leaning so far.
-doesn't like Ceph's 161 for talking for the sake of talking without caring what about, but generally feels ceph is town (I agree)
-thinks T-bones entrance to the game was awful. That was my impression as well.
-Ceph, OS would like links to games for the Meta on Copper you referenced in 187
-Reck, OS would like to know why shos and t-bone are town? (ref: 226)
-Thinks shos is hard to read and hard to pick out as scum. Thinks all of shos, mollie, and tier could be town.
-Thinks Iec could be scum do to lack of participation (as of saturday), mentions Iec is usually talkative. Mentioned tbone as second option as scum, and theorized that Cabd could be dejected scum (because he probably wanted to be town)

Some of that I'm in agreement with OS and some of that we're not quite on the same page yet.

Now I'm going to go read up what's happened since friday and report back in a separate post.

[Rhinox]

actually its bed time. I got caught up but there's nothing I want to comment on at the moment. shos is still my strongest scum read. I need to talk with my team about copper. Iec, Bone, maybe Cabd are also scum suspects currently. I like ceph and ns for town. mollie and tier are kinda in no read territory currently. Reck can be probably town and LLD honestly I'll probably just avoid trying to figure her out until I have to.

Kats I know you can't lie to me without feeling really really bad about it... I still remember how you broke my heart last team mafia. are you scum y/n?

[Rhinox]

how can you have cephrir as town and be unsure about tier?

also how can you possibly have no read on me????

if I were not so in love with my cupcake vote I wld be voting you.

I've mostly agreed with things ceph has posted. What does tiers alignment have to do with ceph? You and tier havent stuck out as town or scum to me. Just haven't popped up on my radar yet.

[Rhinox]

how can I have not popped up on your radar yet?

I am flashy. tier has good bulk of posts to sort through.

thoughts on cupcake?

You first posted saturday. I last posted friday before today. Which means i have read your posts once in a block and not realtime so it'll take more time and a clearer head to dissect and process.

Oversoul is leaning town on tier and that is my official position for now. He just hasn't stuck out good or bad to me personally so far. Just hasn't been a priority.

Cupcake thoughts require more effort than laying in bed phone posting and watching empire strikes back while trying and failing to sleep would allow. I also want to refresh myself on my meta history with kats. I'll get back to you.

[Rhinox]

Oversoul says kats lurks more as town than scum, which is the basis for my meta book on kats as well. It helped me read kats correctly as town in /invitational 13 but that was 2 years ago. OS and I are both kinda confused about the emotions coming out of kats' posts. OS doesn't know how to read it, but I'm starting to think it sounds more like scumkats in TM2012 than the townkats I know. I'm definitely not getting the warm fuzzies I had playing with townkats. However, Tammy says kats has been doing the aggressive style all caps posting shtick as town lately so it makes me question the reliability of my meta on kats. None of my team has suggested pursuing a kats lynch today. I disagree with LLD, I think kats gets easier to read as the game goes on.

I'm more interested in how the wagon on shos dissolved. LLD at least still seems to think shos is scum but is going after the bigger fish. Is this how others feel as well, or do people think shos is town? I'm completely in agreement with kats feelings regardings shos, in that this going back to page 1 and basically doing a pbpa style rehash of everything is so pointless and really to me comes across as scum trying to appear to be useful but not really doing anything. I mean, we're like not even a week into the game. Things are still be felt out in real time. There is no new information to give context to anything said on page 4 in a reread analysis. The fact he is just trudging on with no care at all of staying current in the thread tells me he's not interested at all in finding scum - only appearing to be scumhunting.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, can you explain to me 252?

I quoted those because these are important details to remember.

and clearly you haven't seen me try hard as scum, lol. If you'd like I can dig up some scumgames for you. I had only 2 in like, the last 123 years.

Regarding the bolded, that is no answer. Why do you feel those are important details to remember? More importantly, why would you assume that anyone in this game had forgotten or not known about those game rules? And also, why was their a need to remind us of those rules RIGHT THEN as opposed to if/when sometime in the future those rules had any relevance to something going on in the game? The problem I have is that is the type of pointless "Here's some helpful information look how helpful I am I'm such a helpful townie." that scum make instead of doing something useful to find scum.

And I didn't say you were trying hard, I said you were trying TOO hard. As in the things you are going back and digging up are reaches at best. Asking reck if his vote was really srs on cabd is bad because Reck had already gone round with someone explaining why he was srs. And you should have known this because you were keeping up with the game in real time until at least 170 and reck started explaining his srs read as early as 71. And with your ceph vote, we're 10 pages into the game but you go back to page 1 and pick out one vote of ceph's that is a "scumpost" and "worth voting". It's hard to put into words but what you're doing doesn't look like town trying to find scum, it looks more like scum trying to find cases.

Take this for example: in 123 you liked ceph for town. This was Thursday 4/2 at 9:30 AM according to my timestamps. About 24hrs later, in 242 you call ceph12 a scum post and worth voting and you vote. Had you not read that post before? If not, what did you base your ceph townread on 24hrs earlier? For the record you questioned ceph in your second post in the game referencing posts ceph made on the first page so I'm not going to buy that you just didn't catch 12 when it was made.

I'm saying this because I saw people are scumreading me, and it has to be because of gamestart play because I practically wasn't here for like three days so.

can anyone the fuck explain to me why cabd is such a hot topic despite not being there? same goes for me, I guess, in the future?

Lurking or even legit VLA is not a get out of jail free card. Shocking, I know...

[Rhinox]

Tammy gave me some thoughts on the game.

-doesn't get copper's move on to Cabd. I assume she's talking about 267

-calls Tammy404 bullshit because a prod dodge is not an admission of a vote park. Tammy is also at mollie for saying I was town but then wanting to vote me for not expressing a read on her yet.

I agree with this and I had a couple other problems with it. Firstly "voteparking" is just IMO one of those buzzword tells that don't really mean anything. But the bigger problem I have mollie is you didn't question me at all about why I was still voting shos and just went right into rallying the troops. It doesn't seem like you were initially interested in trying to determine my alignment.

-Tammy thinks the Who argument for calling mollie town is a good one for now and also likes that mollie claims to be transparent, but that mollie isn't really making her think town yet. I agree with this.

-Mollie, Tammy wants to know how much fun you're having right now? Also, do you have a read on shos? Why haven't you really interacted with him at all besides basically saying hello (and since then, that you're not lynching him)?

-Tammy thinks kats should stop with the all caps stuff because it feels fake. Also, Tammy points out that kats wouldn't bus unless it was a necessity and since he only had 2 votes on him when he voted shos it doesn't look like a necessity bus. But, shos might have been the only counter wagon he could make happen.

-Last thing is that Tammy is finding it hard to feel good about reads in this game. Collectively, we haven't yet all had a read we've agreed on at the same time in our PT.

[Rhinox]

Tammy, 2 votes does not make a wagon... = =b

yes, I believe that was the point.

[Rhinox]

Katsuki not re-evaluating in the light of much better posts does him no favors and his team can ATE all it wants.

536 was a great post

and his total lack of comment on it or any recent shos posts just reinforces my whole picture.

Walk me through it ceph.. what about shos' posting is much better? what makes 536 a great post? I'm not seeing it.

[Rhinox]

OF course this is an answer. why I think those are important? because they are actively influencing the game. Have you played mafia before with plurality? without? that's a grand difference in strategy as scum. for example, if DL was now in 12 hours, and plurality, then all the votes on singles and stuff would be wasted. if Kats is leading, and is town, scum will have no problem staying there, even lurking, through the deadline. if not, they would want to join a townwagon for a mislynch. is this not obvious for you? these are stuff that can be analyzed, and SHOULD be. and knowing the fact that scum have daytalk? are you seriously not seeing the difference between scum with day talk and without?

Great, so you answered the "Why do you feel those are important details to remember?", while dodging the "Why did you need to quote it and post it?" part. Instead you framed it as "Rhinox you are stupid to not see how important these things are", when it really should be clear that I'm not arguing the importance of the things you quoted, but the importance of needing to quote those specific points to remind everyone. As I said already:

The problem I have is that is the type of pointless "Here's some helpful information look how helpful I am I'm such a helpful townie." that scum make instead of doing something useful to find scum.

But maybe I'm wrong. You've done more rereading than anyone in the thread, I'd like for you to show me where you've analyzed anything with the idea that scum have daytalk in mind? I'd like to see a practical example of how you feel the difference between scum with day talk and without have affected your reads.


I'm not done with the rest of your post yet but I have to run right now .

[Rhinox]

you tell my sister if she does not townread me in 5 minutes I am going to get weird on you and YOU are going to feel the brunt of it. cos there is no way she shld be having a hard time parsing my alignment in this game.

Tammy says she's not going to be bullied into giving you a town read if she's not feeling it yet. If you're town, she'll see it.

And she really wants to give some thoughts on shos.

------


Shos re: 595:

Its obvious you don't get it or you're choosing to intentially talk in circles around the point so I'm not sure arguing with you about it anymore is useful. I've made my point others can agree with me or not. I'll just say that of your options, neither of them is in my consideration at all, because your post was not actually useful. The fact that you think it was super useful and you want the conclusion to be seen as "town doing something useful" is exactly the reason why I had a problem with the post in the first place.

Back to the rest of what I wanted to say about 582:

I'm sorry, but when you're catching up you don't yet know what's going to prove useful and what isn't.

How would you expect me to work, then? just read up everything and go "oh NS is scum VOTE:"? what's the limit that says, "from here backwards it is useless"? 200 posts ago? 300? 272?

Regarding the bolded, PRECISELY! Which is why your method of "catching up" is so pointless if you're town, but so easy for scum to hide in. You're reacting to a single post at a time without context, and then you just change your mind on the next page if you need to. You're questioning things that you should know have already been talked about and answered. It gives the appearance of trying super hard to find scum "see look at all the things I'm questioning!!!" How many of your questions have you followed up on?

I do expect a town mindset when catching up is to read everything first and then put together a coherant thought with a single conclusion on a player.

re: 242 - I dunno what I was thinking at the time precisely. I changed my mind again now, didn't I? or is that not allowed.?There are 100 posts, of with 23 are ceph's, between 123 and 242. I guess something made me think differently, dunno, maybe the fact that in that while ceph apparantly started scumreading me and voting me? That probably made me more critical of him, I guess? I dunno. I can't invent stuff for you and tell you what I was thinking last week. The fact is that I started rereading, and that caught my eye.

There's one thing you probably don't understand about metown - this goes for the argument above too. I'm going for full clarity as town, I practically spit out everything I think without thinking. Yes, you can claim that the noise/content ratio may become too high this way, but I think that if townies invest their time to the game, then the more they read the more fertile their thoughts can be. Not going to argue on theory. if you still think otherwise, I'll agree to disagree with you.

I have a hard time believing on one hand that your game theory is full clarity and spitting everything out because the more you spit out the more fertile your thoughts can be, and then on the other hand you tell me you can't remember what you were thinking that caused you to change your mind. So I guess this blows full clarity out of the water.

Inconsistency can be scum, inconsistency can be town. Its all dependant on context in specific situations.

it's not a free card, no, but in most cases, when wagons, discussion, and all that shit happens on a missing player, it is probably led by scum, trying to take hold of the opportunity where they cannot respond and defend.

This is pretty much bullshit.


-----

Good catch.I was going to say that I will make catchup walls like that trying to flow through my thoughts as they would have been at the time, but I think that is a scum indicator for me now that I think about it.

Ceph this post didn't sit right with me. Your recent posting about shos is weird and not a good weird. You're not voting shos anymore and you think he's posting better. You're not telling me I'm wrong in anything I've posted about shos - in fact you're basically telling me good job. But you're also questioning kats for not reconsidering on shos based on his better posting.

Clear things up for me here, what are your current reads on shos, kats, me, and thoughts on my case on shos?

[Rhinox]

btw lol
while trying to fall asleep it occurred to me tat I have not voted

VOTE: notscience

by the way this vote is pretty stupid, but I can't really see why scum would actually want to lynch notscience today or ever so...

[Rhinox]

Not hated in lylo

say what? You're hated except for in lylo? this changes things for me because I was pretty much giving you a pass under the assumption we'd be lynching you eventually regardless of your alignment if we didn't win before getting to lylo. Does your role PM specifically define what lylo is?

[Rhinox]

Scumx2+1 is lylo in any game

And I said I was conditional and someone else said that was probably the condition, why did you not ask verification or something?

I somehow missed that you said you were conditional or I would have.

I find it odd that your role is conditional to a specific event occurring but doesn't define what the event means and just relies on a typical common definition. Especially in a theme game where pinpointing exactly when lylo occurs is a little fuzzier do to higher uncertainties in roles and factions but I guess since we know this is 10-3 that takes away a bit of the uncertainty. I'm not saying you're lying I just find it odd.

So what you're basically saying is that we still need to lynch you by a day before lylo if we haven't won by then because all scum would have to do is no kill to force a mylo situation and then pile on for the win. That's basically the same situation regardless of your condition. Carry on, I'm back at ease now.

[Rhinox]

EBWOP:

No.

It says that while there are more than twice the scum+1 players alive I am hated.

oh so it does give a definition for the condition. This is what I was asking for.

Thanks, still at ease.

[Rhinox]

Even in mylo id still need a town vote for scum to pile on

oh... yeah I guess you're right.

Nevermind me and my math skills

yeah you're right I am going to need to read you more critically now. Why didn't you just claim the condition straight away when you claimed to be hated?

[Rhinox]

Also I don't know, rhinox.

Thats fine. I actually find this more likely to be a town tell than a scum tell.

ok so I just skimmed the last page and fuck this game

now to see if anyone else on my team wants to take over for me I'm not dealing with this.

Also I was suppose to swap out with Hoopla but it looks like thats not happening anymore.

ill probably try and find a replacement because its important that my role stays alive til D2

I feel like this is more likely to be town kats. I saw this attitude before when kats was town.

Rhinox is coming from a weird angle towards me, because I was very clearly just not around.

I've hardly mentioned you at all. I'm not coming towards you at all??? Explain this.

[Rhinox]

this game doesn't look like any other wagon is viable but me and kats.

who else do you think we should be wagoning?

[Rhinox]

It feels like you are giving a buddy wiggle room after an early push on him.

I just don't see him really pursuing any other wagon so its odd he's complaining about there being no other wagon. In know he was voting you and got pissy that nobody else seemed interested in voting you, but I didn't see him all too concerned with convincing anyone to vote you so... :shrug: He's also made some big posts recently but out of all that I'm still not sure he's committed to any read. I'm not sure what about my question makes you think what you did.

this game doesn't look like any other wagon is viable but me and kats.

who else do you think we should be wagoning?

I've no problem with that, but if you insist, any of NS and TS are scumdidates imo.

Well I don't see any way that I'd be voting kats or NS today, so talk to me about TS. Can you give me a few sentences on why he's scum?

[Rhinox]

I actually don't have anything concrete to present off the top of my head, I just remember scumreading him.

This is probably going to be more of a theory disagreement than me thinking it is alignment indicative so feel free to disregard, but c'mon man. You just got done telling me how important posting all the crap you did was because it is basically spitballing and the more you post the more fruitful it becomes, and... nothing? all that for nothing? You can't name one reason for tier being scum? So all your catchup up was basically useless if you're not actually going to use it for anything? Or are you just being lazy? If you're town you're supposed to be ya know trying to get other people to lynch your scumreads. Have you followed up on anything in your catchup posts? Do you even care? Do you even remember you asked me 2 things, 1 you labled "serious question time", that I just blew off? Is it not that serious to you?

you should know that I'm usually successful inscumreading him

Stuff like this does absolutely nothing for me.

---

I was talking about our little early day interactions

(you know the one where you misrepped my vote on copper ;P)

. Though I attributed Oversoul's reads that you posted as your own. But I hate blanket statements "we think PLAYER's entrance was awful" because that's just lazy.

THAT'S what you're hung up on? I mean I figured my use of the emoticon would be a dead giveaway that I was joking around there. I do think your vote was lazy with or without the explanation you gave, and I'm pretty sure that was the same thing oversoul was referring to when he said your entrance was awful, which is why I agreed with the assessment. But that early in the game all I was trying to say was stop being lazy and play better. I don't get why sharing my team reads, or referring to things we agree with with a "we" pronoun, is lazy. I'm more worried about the players who haven't referenced their team's thoughts at all. Its easy for 1 player as scum to fake appearing to be town. Its a lot harder to fake town on 4 different players' thoughts.

---

btw rhinox that post you thought was to you was to lld not ot you

also mollie what do you think of shos not making sense/blatantly misrepping the thread

can we lynch this?

can anyone give me a reason not to, in fact? in consideration of gameplay and claim?

Burden of proof is typically on the one wanting to lynch. Claim really says nothing about NS' alignment, and especially now that the condition of not being hated in lylo came out any justification there ever was for policy lynching the claim no longer exists, so the claim is not in my consideration at all. I'm not sure what you mean by consideration of gameplay so you'll need to explain that one.

---

You could also be some kind of 3rd party, but I doubt it because it would warp expected winrates too much for the overall Team Mafia scoring system.

What are we supposed to make of the fact that it is public knowledge that the distribution of alignments in this game is 10 town and 3 mafia with no 3rd parties, especially given that this was already talked about in thread?

---

I am never a fan of pbpa being an auto townread as you well know! the 1 thing that he has done that I liked was point out why he was sort of townreading cephrir. but other than that I don't think iceyrent is doing anything that super wows me into going "iceyrent is so town!" but then I am NOT the best at reading him. I am not sure about him giving a pass to reck but ugh.

Mollie I've asked you a couple times now for thoughts on shos (Tammy's request) and this post makes hearing your thoughts more important (I don't think I missed you giving them?). After shos started posting what was basically a pbpa all you had to say was "not lynching shos!" but now you say you're not a fan of pbpa being seen automatically as town in regards to ice. I'm wondering what you're seeing in shos posting that super wows you into going "not lynching shos!" that is so different from what you're not seeing from ice. Because IMO ice's posting is multitudes better than shos.

And also.... actually nevermind*. I thought I realized something but its probably nothing. Ask me about it later.

[Rhinox]

I feel like I'm starting to understand shos better now and I'm starting to doubt my read on him.

I agree with the sentiment that this game is becoming difficult because almost everyone is looking town. This is kinda making me want to start purging all the lurkers/active lurkers/ppl that keep popping in now and then but haven't really been doing anything. There's probably at least 1 scum in Cabd, Reck, LLD, and Tier.

UNVOTE: for now so I can reevaluate things.

And also it seems like everyone is going to be VLA this weekend but just a reminder

I'll be LA as well this weekend and every weekend

, but especially this weekend because I'm traveling out of town for my wife's baby shower so today after 4 until sometime sunday evening I probably won't be able to do much more than phonepost.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox - Well, I guess you can either infer that I faked it or that I'm super town. I don't remember the discussion and do vaguely recall that being in the rule set, but was only thinking about how Cephrir's behavior could be read in the moment. I added that because I thought broadly about what was possible.

I normally only play mafia games where the structure is unknown, so I do not normally reason with certainty about such things on D1.

As town I like to post without reviewing the thread because I think it can lead to organic towntells based on ignorance.

Meta-wise, I have made similar errors as town recently, albeit later in the game when the likely number of scum had been changed by flips. As scum I did something similar intentional very late game in Dynasty Warriors. I might be more likely to miss the in-thread discussion as scum, but I'd definitely know the distribution as scum.

The town game was Coyote's Zodiac mafia I think. Not equivalent circumstances, but it's hard to replicate current circumstances obviously.

I don't see how super town would be a conclusion from this one comment. I mean, if you're scum who didn't read the ruleset you'd know there were 3 of you but you wouldn't know anything about 3rd parties. However, I asked because earlier in the game you also had a "If scum have daytalk..." comment, and well it is also public knowledge that scum have daytalk, and it was also something that was talked about in the thread before you made the comment.

I don't really wanna play the wifom game but the bolded is interesting because if that's how you think as town then it seems reasonable it would also be something you would try to fake as scum. I know when I've played as scum that it was part of my gameplan to try to fake towntells and I can link you to one of my past scumgames where I talked about that in the post game. Normally I wouldn't even acknowledge something like this like when you made the first comment because once the discussion is started it really is nothing but wifom, but the fact that you've done this twice now and the fact that you think 'super town' should be a possible conclusion for the 3rd party comment does have me concerned.

[Rhinox]

Rhinix, Kats and LLD are all way through their prodding time

[Rhinox]

Bone are you saying you shouldn't be lynched because you haven't been here? Because if that's what you're saying I'm totally down for stringing you up today.

Also,

If we had to lynch right now I'd want it to be Ceph.

We're 2 days from deadline so we are pretty much in the "we have to lynch right now" phase of the day.

Are you even aware that you are currently voting yourself?

[Rhinox]

No, I'm saying that argument is lazy. No one has really taken issue with any particular thing I have posted. I think someone scoffed at my reason for townreading Reck, but that's about it. What is shos argument here? That I posted too soon in response to Ceph so I must be scum? You're telling me you'd be willing to lynch any player based on that flimsy alignment independent reasoning?

2+ days out is hardly that point. We're close, but we're not there yet. I know I am voting myself, and I want to keep it there for the moment based on potential role interactions with Cabd. I know I'm the last player that should be saying "i'll have plenty of time to change my vote" but I'll have plenty of time to change my vote.

Preedit: So basically you're willing to lynch a slot you admittedly had no read on...and that seems protown. Riiight and I'm the scummy one.

Well you are a tough one to read because as you say you haven't been here much. But I did just read through you in iso and you have said some stuff and you're also right that there really isn't much there to have a problem with on the surface.

I do have a problem with how much you've been quick to remind us all how you're busy and haven't been here much. I mean out of your 40 posts probably close to 25% of them contain those kinds of comments and that seems like a lot. Just seems like someone spending so much effort reminding us how you haven't been here that much could probably redirect that effort to something more useful.

I did notice in your iso at some point you said you had no interest in lynching shos because you hadn't interracted with him at all. First off that is pretty lazy on your part. I mean there are a few people I haven't interracted with much at all yet but if one of them were a top wagon I'm reasonably sure I could read some of their posts and determine whether or not I had any interest in lynching them based on content, and not just outright dismissed them. Or at least made some effort to try to interract with them to form a read since at the time they were the 2 leading candidates for lynching. Mostly, I just want to know if your opinion on shos has changed at all based on your recent interactions?

[Rhinox]

I also wish copper had not been force-replaced because WTF was he going on about pages 35-37? His asking for claims and then going off on ceph I just don't understand. Is there some kind of personal history there? I didn't like reading any of his posts in that range and would have liked to ask some questions about them.

[Rhinox]

hey rhino i dont think ive had a chance to properly talk to you this far. what are.youre thoughts on this day?

I think this day has been a mess and I hope some flips clear things up and make tomorrow easier.

Rhinox. your teampals are reading the game, right? what are their current thoughts?

I've passed everything along when I get it. We're not able to keep up with all the games all the time, but when we have time we seem to pick a game and get caught up and give some thoughts. We haven't really been discussing this game in our PT much lately since the last time I passed along some comments.

these can be useful beacuse in case rhinox ever flips town, we know they are all pro-town, so it earns us 4 conftown opinions instead of just one.

Are your teammates reading the game?

[Rhinox]

VOTE: Cabd

[Rhinox]

:/

[Rhinox]

shos if only you paid as much attention to what players in the game post as you do trying to be mr. superhelpful townieleader...

[Rhinox]

tbone y u so mad?

Tell me, who should we lynch?

[Rhinox]

Less defending, more telling me who we should lynch

[Rhinox]

I'm very conflicted right now.

[Rhinox]

Why does anyone think katsuki is town? Serious question.

i don't think anyone thinks katsuki is town and isn't named iecerint

I mean, kats is pretty hard to read in a vacuum IMO but in my meta on him scumkats is more involved, tries to actually get people lynched, is more manipulative, cares more, etc. And townkats lurks more, is less involved, goes with the flow, doesn't really make cases or what not especially early in games. Kats play looks more like townkats. I've even seen townkats selfvote on like day 3 rather than trying to get someone else lynched, and that fits with the whole "eff this I'm out" he was going with earlier. So in terms of his play this looks more like townkats to me. As for tone I already talked about how I expect the capsrage to come from scumkats moreso than townkats but Tammy told me kats has been doing that as town lately so... :shrug:

Its the same feeling I had last time I played with kats. You could tie me down and try to force me to explain what makes kats town and I can't really do it based on his play. But I think despite that, this looks like townkats. And I'm not too comfortable with a lot of the names on the kats wagon either.


Does anyone think Cabd is town? Tier what is sketchy about kat's shift onto Cabd? A player getting wagoned within a day or 2 of deadline shifting to the other viable wagon is not really something I find odd or out of place at all.

[Rhinox]

And I mean I still helped lynch kats in /invitational 13 because :shrug: he was there and some people were asking "what makes kats town" and I didn't have an answer. Meanwhile scum basically lurked away that game to victory. And this game is really starting to feel an awful lot like that game.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, it's not that katsuki is going for the counterwagon. It's that cabd had been hanging around the null/scum mark for lurking or something and now when deadline approaches this is suddenly 'not town-cabd' and reck and iec made very good points on cabd. It's fine if you vote the counterwagon,

but pretending you're suddenly certain he's scum is not.

This doesn't really bother me at all.

Do we not think someone who's apparently god's gift to scum can emulate his town game? Even I can do that and I'm apparently garbage, so.

I found kats to be pretty transparent in the past, despite his attempts to not be. Its possible he's gotten better at that in the past couple years since I've been playing regularly I guess. I certainly never learned how to emulate my town game as scum tho.

[Rhinox]

By the way my team is completely torn on kats and the 2 wagons currently, but TH trusts my judgement and OS would be more comfortable with a Cabd lynch.

And we all agree this game has been a mess :/

[Rhinox]

Oh shit. I think I am very transparent, but if youre finding me to be so then it means i have to watch out for you from now on rhino :igmeoy:

I called you town on D1 in /invitational 13 and you kept asking me why. I remember you even assumed I flipped scum without looking in the postgame and accused me of BS-ing that meta read. Me thinking you're transparent is nothing knew since you post TM2012.

[Rhinox]

Shos You're already voting him and have asked for a hammer. Why do you need the answer to that question so bad?

LLD do you really think scum having an extra 1shot killing rule makes sense for a mini? I think the simpler answer would be he's just trying to buy a day if he's scum even if he's just a goon.

PS I'm likely phone posting only between now and deadline.

[Rhinox]

This game sucks

[Rhinox]

I am a miller.

Katsuki, When the Mod Forgets to Lock the Thread, a 1-shot Miller Thread Unlocker aligned with the Town, was lynched Day 1.

I asked my team for thoughts on this during the night.

One said Autolynch.
One forgot ceph claimed miller but basically shrugged and said ceph felt scummy to them all game.
One said yeah, probably scum.

So ceph has jumped up pretty high onto my list of desireable lynches for today.

----------------------------------------

the flip is 1-shot miller though; that suggests we have loads of cops, not only one.

Given kats comments I think the 1-shot refers to his thread unlocking ability. Not 1-shot miller, whatever that would be.

----------------------------------------

oh heyyyy

VOTE: Cabd

So you just going to keep voting Cabd until he's dead and not do anything else then?

--------------------------------------

nop
I'm just a little dazzled at how the hell the katsuki wagon went through
I went to sleep thinking that 99.9999% cabd dies. This suggests, imo, that cabd IS actually scum; but it could really just be coincidence - both wagons were high.
if cabd flips scum, I'm gonna swarm through the katsuki wagon for scum.

This is so cheeky-scum posting. YOU voted kats. You pushed for kats lynch. "oh tee hee kats got lynched? wow thats surprising totally didn't expect that" please... so fucking cheeky.

We need to have a talk about a few things shos.

1) Explain this post:

@mollie - you're going to have to look for yourself, if you know what I mean

2) Why were you so averse to voting Cabd? Over the last 48hrs of D1 you called Cabd scum, you said you would hammer either cabd or kats and reiterated that throughout the day. You called for town to focus in on Cabd or Kats because "ZOMG NO LYNCH" but then you tried to speed wagon tbone and humored the thought of a speedwagon on ceph even closer to deadline. By the end of the day you were all "rah rah everyone vote kats nao" and when you went to bed you seemed dejected cabd might get lynched with your whole "fuck it don't care just lynch cabd". And now today after you waffle on Cabd in 1401 you call him useless lynchbait who is only maybe scum but only because of the kats lynch. But back in 1071 you said Cabd was scum. So what happened between 1071 and 1401 that made you think Cabd is town, expect maybe only scum based on not his play but kats flipping town?


to be continued...

[Rhinox]

How do you feel about rhinox not evaluating either?

Having read ahead, I'm not sure I like where you're going with this. Because I already commented about ceph cheerleading me on while question kats about not reconsidering, when I was also not reconsidering. And if there was anything scummy about me not reconsidering, then bringing attention to it would be the last thing I'd want to do as scum wouldn't it? See here:

Ceph this post didn't sit right with me. Your recent posting about shos is weird and not a good weird. You're not voting shos anymore and you think he's posting better. You're not telling me I'm wrong in anything I've posted about shos - in fact you're basically telling me good job. But you're also questioning kats for not reconsidering on shos based on his better posting.Clear things up for me here, what are your current reads on shos, kats, me, and thoughts on my case on shos?

Rhinox looks like he's exploring all avenues explorable.

Elaborate, please?

Umm I need to see where this goes. I think the switch on shos is kind of late and might be motivated by people stopping scumreading shos.

Oh it absolutely had to do with the fact that I was one of the last people (if not the last, I don't remember) voting shos while it became the cabd vs. kats show. Unlike some ppl in this game I'm not just going to park my vote on my top scum read and ignore everything else going on. Especially when there are 3 scum to lynch. And as I pointed out up above in my post 610, I didn't just sit there while people were no longer suspecting shos and then try to slink away when no one was looking. I was challenging ceph why he changed his mind. I kept asking mollie to explain her townread on shos which she never really did. As of the post you reference my vote on shos was no longer productive on D1. It was time to look elsewhere. And also...

Rhinox, why did you start to understand shos from this point?

There was something in the interaction between mollie and shos that I didn't want to talk about too openly on D1 and felt maybe holding off on shos for D1 would be alright.

Gotta keep this in mind. Cabd and rhinox probably do not share alignment. If cabd is scum, rhinox is trying too hard to get a buddy lynched to be scum. If cabd is town, rhinox fits the profile of the scumplayer defending one mislynch strongly and pushing for the other.I realise Iec has been doing the same but I think he is town so..

I think this is pretty much BS and I think even you realize that given your last sentence. And I mean I don't think I was even defending kats that strongly. Today I wish I had defended stronger.

I just realised there is a player called lady lambdadelta that has done absolutely nothing this game.

She's done enough to get a read on. I don't like all the "oh shos is totes scum but hey lets lynch kats instead because reasons" and especially now that kats has flipped town LLD has gone from "meh whatever" to a suspect.

You seemed to think I was town yesterday. It's a bit worrisome you wouldn't consider the mod could be screwing with us.Fortunately we have the other setup to reflect on. It had a million investigative roles presumably intended to eventually cause the town to realize we should stop thinking about counterclaims. That much, perhaps, we can take as a lesson here.

I did consider multiple millers. That is why I immediately asked my team for their thoughts. Its also why I didn't immediately vote you today. One of my teamates was confused why no one else had brought it up as soon as the day started and given the reactions of TS and shos seems like mostly ppl likely just forgot you claimed miller, so its a worthwhile discussion to have IMO.

PS yes I did for the most part think you were town yesterday but I started having doubts around 610 and hey, situations change.

3. I did vote kats but when I went to sleep I was SURE the lynch wasn't going to happen. you can't deny thsi was what it looked like.

to me it felt like kats was probably going to get lynched when I fell asleep that night.

4. that was an ongoing game, and it has now ended. check it out.

heh. of course. and to think for a minute I was humoring the idea that you and mollie might be neighbors or masons or some other game related inside information passing between you.

5. I was averse because I wanted kats dead.

As far as I can tell you wanted kats dead because you didn't like his softclaiming and he refused your demands to fullclaim. But you actually called Cabd scum yesterday and today you're not. I still want to know where and why your opinion on Cabd changed. You never really called kats scum. You went from "Cadb is scum but I'd lynch either" to "I only wanna lynch kats boo hoo cadb is going to get lynched". It doesn't make sense to cry about someone you think is scum getting lynched. So where did you change your mind about cadb being scum?

Rhino, please take a look at my catchup and the questions directed at you.

You saw my "to be continued", right?

[Rhinox]

sure. While you are definitely strongly townreading a few players, you have no problem with exploring any other lynches. It feels a tad like you're buddying up to the few players and keeping all other options open.It's not much of a case, it's more of a reminder to myself that you're showing somewhat opportunistic stances, just as you're doing with shos.

Thanks for elaborating, but I still don't really get this. As far as I can tell, the only thing you're really referring to is the string of posts between me, shos, and a post from ns that wasn't directed at me from 680 to 688. And from that, you concluded that I'm "exploring all avenues explorable".

First off I was voting shos at the time and he was the only player I was interested in lynching at the time. The first paragraph was all about shos so I'm not sure how it contributes to your conclusion.

The second half is just me and shos going back and forth and is not me seriously exploring anything other than forcing shos to draw a line in the sand on a particular read at a point in time. It confuses me how you draw the conclusion you do because at the time I had only seriously voted shos, I outright dismissed 2 avenues and said I was not at all willing to explore (kats and NS), and I only humored shos to force him to defend why he thought you were scum. At the very very very most I can see how you would think that maybe I was considering exploring voting you at that point in time, if you're only surface reading words and not really understanding what was going on. But I wasn't, and the rest of the day don't recall ever considering voting for you or talking about you much at all other than to comment that I hadn't been paying much attention to you. And that is a far cry from "exploring all avenues explorable" and has begged the question by assuming that there is anything wrong with exploring other lynch candidates on D1 to begin with. And I mean you were just asking ceph about me NOT reconsidering on shos so at one point I'm not reconsidering at that raises your eyebrows and then another point I am reconsidering and that also raises your eyebrows so its just starting to look like you have an agenda you're trying to fit actions into rather than interpretting what the actions really mean.

Townreading him should have nothing to do with the main focus of the thread being elsewhere. Are you using the focus being elsewhere as an explanation of why you unvoted or of why you stopped scumreading him?

I never stopped scumreading him and started townreading him. I unvoted because I didn't feel there was enough support to get him lynched, and because some of my stronger townreads did not think he was scum. So I reconsidered. And also...

it's day 2 now

sure, do tell now.

I basically already said but when mollie just started calling shos town and wouldn't elaborate on it, and then when shos made 774 I had a thought that maybe mollie and shos were crumbing being masons and I didn't want to bring attention to it in thread. I've seen definitive unexplained townreads like that that usually end up having a reason and I thought 774 was like the most unsubtle thing ever had that been the case. I took my thoughts to my team tho and they pointed out that probably wasn't the case since mollie had already previously voted shos at some point but by then it was late in the day and we had a couple replacements and I wasn't going to try to start a shos wagon back up again. Shos said today he was referring to something else and here we are. FYI, here is the point it happened:

And also.... actually nevermind*. I thought I realized something but its probably nothing. Ask me about it later.

[Rhinox]

Actually TS I'm moving from "interested in your thought process" to "your points are just bad and scummy as hell"

Anyway if you are coming off shos scum take a look at Rhinox, I need a shower.

Marking this as lead for NK

orly? so lemme show you what I just found rereading bins and copper:

ts, shos, ice,

rhinox for pretty town

So I killed copper because he thought I might be scum even though copper got force-replaced for bins who put me in his "pretty town" pile?

Turns out bins was a great guy and I wish he could have stuck around longer because I agree with how amusing this is:

I am a miller.

I agree with claiming past roles, particularly given my previous role:

1-shot BP Miller (Aligned with mafia. Yes, miller aligned with mafia)

This game is pretty high-profile and run by smart people.

There's absolutely no way they would allow setup spec based on the previous game to be useful for town here -- that would be terrible modding.

i found this funny but i'll probably never mention it again

juxtaposed with this:

Fortunately we have the other setup to reflect on. It had a million investigative roles presumably intended to eventually cause the town to realize we should stop thinking about counterclaims. That much, perhaps, we can take as a lesson here.

there are just too many scum in this game and maybe I do want to lynch you all and this is totally a conspiracy against me!

[Rhinox]

what are the chances that the score exists as a distraction and scum can manipulate it however they want

didn't you claim to know something about the score mechanic? or was that something else going on?

[Rhinox]

This certainly looks like a read change on shos. Was this only due to the supposed crumb?

I was speaking cryptically because I didn't want to draw attention to what I thought could be a crumb, so yes basically.

Uh, I thought that was exactly what you were doing. It didn't look like you were joking, I thought you were going to consider voting for me if shos provided good reasoning. Are you saying you were never were?

I mean, "never" is a pretty strong word, but no I did not expect shos would provide reasoning that would make me vote you. It would have had to have been a "smoking gun" level case and even then I'm taking it with a huge grain of salt because shos.

You're probably town and I want to work with you.

Rhino, who do you think is scum other than shos?

Let me work backwards. Lets say you're town. And lets say ceph is also town because other than the 2 millers thing the only thing me and my team have a bad feelings we haven't really been able to justify yet. Lets let Iec be town too because I'm kinda getting good feelings from his posting today. Notscience I've also felt ok with all game and I felt good about mollie even tho I'm entirely unimpressed with fenix so far. If I say that is my 'town bloc' I'm not lynching today, then I'll have scum in:

Cabd
LLD
shos
t-bone
Reck

Cabd is still lurking and that really is unacceptable. My team wants me to push there, but for me I don't think pushing on Cabd has really been effective given the evidence of D1. He's someone I would certainly lynch today but that doesn't have to happen right away.

Tbone I just have a soft spot for because we go way back in the minecraft thread and I just don't want him to be scum. But objectively I haven't really liked his posts at all throughout the game and I was starting to come to terms with the idea that he's scum, but now there are his claims to consider.

LLD has really been entirely unnacceptable but she's like so above us subpar players and all that she prob doesn't care what the ants like me and you at her feet have to say. The big thing is the whole "shos is scum but lets lynch kats" and I would totally lynch her for that given she doesn't seem too interested in providing much else to read her on.

I don't really feel bad about reck but I don't feel good about him either. I probably wouldn't pursue a reck lynch before a Cabd flip in any case, and I'm encouraged that reck is starting to look at other targets like ceph even if I'm not fully behind them yet.

[Rhinox]

Drop the hypotheticals. Am I in that scumlist?

That wasn't intended to be taken as a hypothetical. No, you are not in the scumlist. If you were, I would have told you that I wasn't comfortable trying to work with you yet, rather than try to see if we can get on the same page with our reads.

Can you convince me of NStown?

Probably not. But I did just read NS in iso for the first time and I'm pretty comfortable with my town read.

lol, ok.It's clear you weren't paying attention so far, and that's fine. I'll show you again. Katsuki was not only more scummy than Shos, but also harder to deal with as scum IMO. For a while, I thought they were both scum, so I stuck on Kats. Then, I had a revelation that only one of them could be scum, and was convinced Katsuki was more likely to be scum FROM that revelation. Now I'm back on Shos, because while I was obviously wrong about Kats, I'm certain I'm not wrong about Shos.I admit that I have a bit of a soft spot for wanting to create pressure to get information, but my reads really aren't as inconsistent as you're trying to make them out to be, and your whole little schtick regarding how "oh boo hoo she treats us like ants" is fake, so get over it.

It wasn't fake, it was sarcastic, but at least it got your attention.

Your revelation came pretty close to the end of the day and I wish we had time to discuss it. I agree that the way shos was pushing kats made it unlikely both were scum together, but I disagreed with your justification to prefer kats lynch over shos lynch and asked you about it and you either didn't see it or chose not to respond. It was like, so bad that it makes me question your motivations for the whole revelation.

And I disagree that kats was scummier than shos and the stuff kats said that made you think he was scummier were like the same things that made me think kats was town. And I think town kats is a pretty easy thing to recognize if you've played a lot of games with kats and I'm just a little surprised and suspicious that you and your team didn't see it.

[Rhinox]

I was in the middle of exams so I likely didn't see it. Can you show me? In addition, I'm going to need you to explain how Kats' stuff at end of day felt town?? Cause it only made me want to kill him more.

LLD do you really think scum having an extra 1shot killing role makes sense for a mini? I think the simpler answer would be he's just trying to buy a day if he's scum even if he's just a goon.

I knew you said you were doing exams and all this was happening with just a few hours left until deadline and I was stuck phoneposting so I didn't push it too much. I wanted to elaborate more but I wanted you to clear up your thinking a little for me first. Like the whole thing with kats softclaiming just seems so typical kats regardless of his alignment and regardless if he actually had a role or not. The very last thing I would have thought was that he had a strong scum role that scum were desperate to use because it would have been easier to just keep quiet and use the role rather than drawing so much attention to it. There's no way kats get lynched without the role nonsense he brought on himself because there were a few voters that only voted kats because he refused to full claim.

If kats had flipped scum well then I'd think you probably just got lucky with your reasoning but I'd also think you were probably town. Since kats flipped town, I'm basically sitting here thinking that you were adamant shos was scum pretty much all day yesterday, and when it became clear only one could be scum you picked kats over shos because maybe kats was a 1-shot scum vig?? Is this something town comes up with? I know you also said you felt kats was scummier but I don't see that in your iso because you never really elaborated too much on it.

As for why I felt kats was town its probably easier to just link you to my posts about that at the end of the day:
1223
1224
1237
1242
1243

[Rhinox]

Can you convince me of NStown?

Probably not.

I'll just lay this here

..................

vote shos

[Rhinox]

Ive elaborated well enough on my NS scumread. You come and say he is town but cannot say why. And everyone calls me bad playerI wish I was scum.

Please do try to explain. I'm really conflicted on NS and egg is trying to convince me NS is scum but he's hopelessly behind atm. He also thinks you're town so..work with me here.

Look I feel like NS is town and I could probably go through his iso and find some of the things that make me feel that way. 2 Major things off the top of my head are the way he went about the previous role claiming and trying to work out a way to determine if anyone was lying, and the situation surrounding his claim and hint at being conditional and the later coming out with the condition later and his interaction with me about it also gives me town vibes. And lots of other little things like I read his posts and just kinda nod and agree and it all looks like he's genuinely trying to determine alignments.

But, convince you? I don't really have any interest in trying to convince you or anyone else right now. For one:

shos (3): T-Bone, Lady Lambdadelta, Rhinox
T-Bone (2): shos, EddieFenixx
RECKONERx (2): Cephrir, TierShift
Cabd (2): xRECKONERx, Iecerint
Cephrir (1): notscience

Not one player is voting ns. why spend effort convincing anyone ns is town, when nobody seems to think ns is scum strongly enough to place a vote. If NS started getting wrung up and I disagreed with the reasoning and what not I would speak out but there is no reason I see to elaborate more than that on a townread right now.

For two I'm not even 100% solid with my read myself. I could be wrong. I could see something later and change my mind. There's a pretty high likelihood I'm currently townreading at least 1 player who is scum. I'm not convinced myself so I'm really not interested in convincing anyone else of a townread I'm not solid in myself.

Can you tell me why egg thinks NS is scum?

----

shos I literally cannot recall a single reason why you think ns is scum. I can't recall a single reason for any of your reads. Your reads seem to change when its convenient for you to change them and when I ask you why you changed you never seem to be able to give me an answer.

[Rhinox]

Actually if any of you have thoughts to bring in from your teammates, do that. at the moment none of them (I think) are reading this game to deep, I'm trying to read theirs though

NS, mind telling what YOUR thoughts is

If you're not scum you're literally the worst.

[Rhinox]

Actually if any of you have thoughts to bring in from your teammates, do that. at the moment none of them (I think) are reading this game to deep, I'm trying to read theirs though

NS, mind telling what YOUR thoughts is

If you're not scum you're literally the worst.

*Sigh*

I think I'm just going to shut up for a while in this game and read others' games. people in this game seem to have stopped trying and I'm tired of being the only one(with ceph, actually) who'se actually active.

also
VOTE: cabd

because apparantly more pressure is required

Nope. You want to act all high and mighty, then you don't just get to blow this off and go pout in a corner.

-You asked for people to share reads from their teams.
-NS shares reads from her teams and you get all annoyed and pull the "yeah but what about YOUR reads"

So my takeaway is you don't really care if people posts reads from their team or not you just thought it was a good thing to say at the time. You thought it'd make you look real town right? Why did you ask for teamate reads if you were just going to blow them off like this?


What purpose does a post like 1642 serve when anything I would possibly say in response has already been said in 1635? "Because drunk" is not a valid excuse. I did go into my townread on NS anyways, and nobody ever goes "guys guys deadtownie thought this guy was town maybe we shouldn't lynch him". Post something that matters. Tell me again about why NS is scum. Or comment on what I said about NS. Do you agree or disagree and why? Tammy told me that since bins and NS are friends and bins suspected NS when she replaced in and Tammy could see NS wanting to kill bins as scum.


Tell me about your read on Cabd. Stop dodging the question. Yesterday you said he was scum and didn't care which of him or kats was lynched. Then you preferred kats and never voted Cabd and seemed dejected when he might get lynched. Then today you said Cabd is just lynch fodder who is only maybe scum for being the counterwagon to kats. Now you're voting him for pressure. You're all over the place. What do you really think about Cabd? You're all "WHY AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO'S ACTIVE??" but you're all fluff and you don't want to engage on the tough questions or commit to anything.

[Rhinox]

shos:

shos if only you paid as much attention to what players in the game post as you do trying to be mr. superhelpful townieleader...

lol taking it back, focus lost

But please, we need to have these wagons stop competing because:

1. cabd is scum and may just enjoy lurking to dayend

2. copper is still waiting for replacement
3. mollie is being replaced, we need eddie to catch up...in a day?
-> This could be a strategic move from their team, btw, as a reason to not-vote, if either any of the lynches is on their partner, or if they just benefit from nolynch. if this is, very interesting move, team The Leftovers. Smooooooothh....

4. T-Boner is probscum as well



in other words we don't have enough votes for two competing wagons. either kats people move to cabd, or cabd to kats. I don't care which one.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, has mastin's thoughts helped you? they didn't help me. when I asked for food from teammates, what I wanted is food which has been COOKED, as in, reads with reasoning, not only "oh he thinks shos is town". Me asking for NS' thoughts is completely unrelated - he posted, which means he's reading and HERE, so I use the fact that he is HERE to actually gauge something out of it.

As a matter of fact they did help me, but that really isn't the point. YOU asked for reads. If they didn't help you, its your job to follow up, ask for elaboration, etc. You didn't do that, you just blew them off. You didn't acknowledge the content of the mastin reads at all until just now. All you said was that it could be faked reads. And I don't buy that you asking for NS's thoughts is unrelated at all.

real good you do when you attack my drunkpost, lol. drunkpost is not an excuse, well then sorry, lynch me, eh?

real good when you post bullshit like this instead of actually answering my questions. Remember when I said you're all fluff and refuse to engage in the tough stuff? Well here is a prime example. Here is the important stuff you ignored so you could score rhetorics points arguing the super important topic of drunkposts. I'll strike out what you addressed and bold the rest so you can easily see what I'm referring to:

What purpose does a post like 1642 serve when anything I would possibly say in response has already been said in 1635?

"Because drunk" is not a valid excuse.

I did go into my townread on NS anyways, and nobody ever goes "guys guys deadtownie thought this guy was town maybe we shouldn't lynch him". Post something that matters. Tell me again about why NS is scum. Or comment on what I said about NS. Do you agree or disagree and why? Tammy told me that since bins and NS are friends and bins suspected NS when she replaced in and Tammy could see NS wanting to kill bins as scum.

Let's talk about your T-bone read since you don't want to talk about NS and are all meh on Cabd. Why do you want to lynch him? I get the feeling you only want to lynch him because he claimed some results and won't give you more information about them like you seem to want. Same as I also feel like you only ended up wanting to lynch kats because he wouldn't fullclaim when you asked him to.

---

Because noone has listened to his stance regarding me because it's entirely formed out of misrepping the thread.

NS we're talking about boner right now, not you

haha wow this is great.

---

This is a little bit of a thing. I don't know why else Bins died unless there's some sort of conspiracy to kill my townreads.

It may or may not be a thing, but really not being able to guess why scum made a choice they did is not something out of the ordinary or something I'm concerned about.

---

I have a swell idea

How about cabd catches up and we read him instead of his role

How can a proven claim be bullshit

And I doubt day 2 is going to be better, scum will kill someone active who actually gives a shit and this will turn into just another lurker randlynching spree to decide the victor of the game.

VOTE: Cabd

Because I don't want a last second deadline scramble for a lynch.

@Rhinox, this should help you remember why I started to scumread NS, I think.

(that was 4 days before deadline)

I really don't know what I'm supposed to be seeing here.

Here's what you said in real time:

Can we PRETTY FUCKING PLEAAAAAZZZZZZ

lynch notsci

The firat quote was a "im scum with cabd", the other was "im scum regarfless"

I didn't understand it then and I still don't understand it now. So, walk me through it?

---

and I'm getting the feeling Ceph is skillful active scum, and not town.

Tammy keeps saying that she has concerns about Ceph and I think this would probably best explain those concerns IMO. I've entertained these thoughts myself, but then I think how screwed we are already if like the only other reasonable, consistently active voice in the game is scum

[Rhinox]

Oh hey yeah Tammy is on your team.

If anything I'm surprised she isn't totally flipping her shit!

About something specific or just the game in general?

She was working on, submitted, and has defended her dissertation so far while TM has been going on so I'm impressed she's kept up as well as she has.

[Rhinox]

Why does my score keep going down

[Rhinox]

So, I'm just going to set aside (not ignore) the last 10 pages for now because I can't organize my thoughts on them without wallposting and that doesn't seem very productive.

Wisdom, talk to me about shos. Everybody just keeps saying that this is just how town shos plays and well I don't have that meta history with shos. There's no one I want to lynch more right now and that makes it difficult to look anywhere else. Can you explain it to me why this is town shos? And/or can you link me to some games you played with shos town and scum so I can read and build up a meta in my mind to compare this game too? I asked my team overnight if I should back off from wanting to lynch shos since besides LLD I was really the only one for it. My team wasn't able to conclusively say whether I should or shouldn't back off. TH told me to trust my read (on shos), and Tammy told me to listen to your read on shos if I felt your slot was town because you 3 have been in some recent games together and were scumpartners too? So, why is this not scum shos?

[Rhinox]

Can you tell me why egg thinks NS is scum?

He's behind and working double shifts so he's not catching up anytime soon. What he told me and I kinda agree with, is this:

through first six pages

He feels that NS is not really scumhunting and that his interactions with reck are not attempts to actually form a read on him. And he says that his keeping track of first roll claims looks like an attempt to stay busy.

through pages 6-14

He thinks notscience's insistence on previous roles without explaining why and doing something about it is weird. Especially if he uses it to very easily write off cabd as town. Just because someone (he himself did too!) maybe lied about their role.

I think that especially the second observation is very valid. He was just looking for a way to townread cabd for a while. However, I do see a number of posts that I associate with town, such as his posts where he presents reads. He doesn't try to take credit for moving the game with them.

Why did you feel the role-claiming thing was town?

I liked that NS tried to figure out a way to find out if anyone was lying about their previous roles. He's the only one who tried to make the previous role claiming actually relevant to this game. Even though (and possibly especially because) it didn't really work out it looked like a genuine attempt at doing something pro-town and I like how he was basically just "meh this isn't really working" and moved on.

It just doesn't look like scum would go through the effort of doing and then not have a real plan to do anything with. I don't think the point was to call Cabd town because if I'm remembering correctly he didn't actually call Cabd town. He said if it could be proven that someone lied then that would be an indication that Cabd was town and scum wanted to try to screw with whatever analysis he hoped to do with the information.

Relatedly, I do think it is likely there were lies in the previous roles because nobody claimed to be vanilla town, and my previous role knew a vanilla townie existed. Reck's claim was the closest but was not a vanilla claim so... :shrug: Not sure what to do with this information/revelation at the moment.

There is also NS's own claim. I believe he is truly hated because it's too easily testable even by accident to be something to fake. The condition if true also points to being town because there is no reason to give a "except in lylo" condition to a hated scum. The whole reason for the condition is to prevent scum from being able to immediately end the game in lylo. And then I kinda fall down a rabbit hole of would the mod give the condition to a scum just because? or would scumNS fake the condition to make the claim seem town and/or to prevent getting policy lynched? my head just kinda starts spinning a little bit. Thats why I don't put TOO much emphasis on NS's claim but it does influence my read of NS ever so slightly in the town direction for it. Does this make any sense at all?

[Rhinox]

UNVOTE:

that replace out is probably town

What? Why?

He has been hounded for his activity the entire game.

I fucking cannot STAND it when people try to claim alignment-related information based off of non-game-related things... especially when it is done so in error. There's nothing "town" about Cabd's replace out. He kept getting heat for it. He waited to replace out until after he was starting to actually have momentum build towards him today. That, to me, says that if anything, he is replacing out due to pressure, not because of some town mindset.

I think wisdom was talking about LLD there but your response is still interesting. Cabd was almost lynched D1. If he was going to replace out due to pressure why wouldn't he have replaced out then? If anything, there is less momentum towards lynching him today.

[Rhinox]

I liked that NS tried to figure out a way to find out if anyone was lying about their previous roles. He's the only one who tried to make the previous role claiming actually relevant to this game. Even though (and possibly especially because) it didn't really work out it looked like a genuine attempt at doing something pro-town and I like how he was basically just "meh this isn't really working" and moved on.

It just doesn't look like scum would go through the effort of doing and then not have a real plan to do anything with. I don't think the point was to call Cabd town because if I'm remembering correctly he didn't actually call Cabd town. He said if it could be proven that someone lied then that would be an indication that Cabd was town and scum wanted to try to screw with whatever analysis he hoped to do with the information.

I disagree. Scum have nothing to so gamestart, and they have to start making up stuff even worse than town until they actually have something to go on with. This is a really easy discussion topic, which easily looks like you're doing something - because you are - but the something is of questionable relation to this game, if any. What *possible* scenario can cause scum to lie in regards to their previous roles? we're talking experienced mods here, there's almost no way at all ever that anything could ever be useful for this game from the other.
Besides, this was a theme presented to the thread by cabd, and NS just picked on it and went with the flow.

He indeed was the only one who tried to make this relevant to the game - but he failed, right? so basically he was wasting everyone's time?

compare to:

me; seeing the score thingie, and trying to figure out if this is of any use in this game. this has been talked about maybe - 1 page - in total. and I took my shit and kept with the analysis in my team thread. This lead me nowhere too, but hey, I didn't waste town's time for it.

We're probably just going to disagree here then. Nobody has anything to talk about to start the game, but that doesn't matter. This wasn't something NS started. It wasn't even the only thing he was talking about. He tried something and it didn't get results and if the only thing you have to say about that is that it was a waste of time then you are a very shallow player. The thought process behind what he did is much more meaningful that what he said or what results were achieved or not. It's the thought process that feels town to me.

It's very disingenuous to compare what NS did to your thing with score and especially to throw in a "see this is why my score thing is town because I didn't waste anyone's time". First off you were begging to discuss the score thing in thread over and over again and the only reason you didn't, as you put it, waste everyone's time was because people told you it was useless to discuss. Secondly, I can't see a clear thought process behind you wanting to figure out the score. It just reminds me of a step 1 step 2 ... profit! joke. If you're town there are 9 other townies who saw the score and just shrugged, basically. Ceph and I briefly thought about whether the score was tied to votes and we had already figured out it wasn't before you even came in and started on about it. I'm getting sidetracked because we're supposed to be talking about NS here but since you brought it up it is just a terrible, misrepresented comparison.

Relatedly, I do think it is likely there were lies in the previous roles because nobody claimed to be vanilla town, and my previous role knew a vanilla townie existed. Reck's claim was the closest but was not a vanilla claim so... :shrug: Not sure what to do with this information/revelation at the moment.

If we brought this up, so let's dig into it a titbit further. Can anyone make a list of the previous roles claims? short and easy, if anyone has the time and patience. are you SURE that your role said there was a VT?

Yes, my PM said I knew that a vanilla townie existed and was aligned with the town. Ironically, NS already started the list or a partial list (so much for your wasting everyone's time argument >.>).

cabd- mailman
who- 1-shot bp miller?
reck- informed townie
ceph- sui 2shot reflex doc
copp- flavor conditional cop
ts- macho framing bg
rhinox- limited rolecop
t-bone- flavor cop who could tell if someone killed
ns- roleblocker/roleblocker bomb
icerink- tracker
lld- sanity not-guaranteed cop
kats- JOAT (A bunch of investigative roles) who had to declare their target during the day
shos- lurker-doublevoter

There is also NS's own claim. I believe he is truly hated because it's too easily testable even by accident to be something to fake. The condition if true also points to being town because there is no reason to give a "except in lylo" condition to a hated scum. The whole reason for the condition is to prevent scum from being able to immediately end the game in lylo. And then I kinda fall down a rabbit hole of would the mod give the condition to a scum just because? or would scumNS fake the condition to make the claim seem town and/or to prevent getting policy lynched? my head just kinda starts spinning a little bit. Thats why I don't put TOO much emphasis on NS's claim but it does influence my read of NS ever so slightly in the town direction for it. Does this make any sense at all?

That's just wrong.
a Hated claim can be tested only if someone is hammering you. so, if they find out you're lying, you're dead already. that makes nothing. Also, he claimed conditionally, and did NOT claim the condition when he did(yet). so in case this was tested and found to be a lie, he could just say "oh, condition". I don't know if site policy is usually TO lynch hated peeps or not, but either way the condition gives him an exit.

I didn't mean testable in the traditional "hey lets test if NS is lying" because yeah thats obviously dumb. I just meant that there is no advantage I can see in claiming hated as scum if you're not actually hated. There's nothing to be gained from it other than not getting voted to L-1 unless people really want to lynch you. All I was trying to say is that town or scum, there is no reason to believe NS is not hated.

Regarding the condition I disagree with your analysis. It would be my policy to lynch a hated player sometime before lylo so yeah initially when the condition came out I was like whoa is NS just trying to prevent the eventual policy lynch from being necessary? But then I thought why wouldn't he have just claimed the condition straight away? What benefit was there in waiting? I mean if its day 4 and we're deciding its time to policy lynch NS and then he's all like "yeah my condition is I'm not hated in lylo so you don't have to policy lynch me" well that wouldn't fly. That's like claiming miller after you've been investigated. There's no advantage at all IMO to delay claiming the condition as scum. And when I asked NS why he didn't claim his condition straight off and he answered that he didn't know I just thought that was a town answer. What kind of scum can't see that not claiming the condition right away would be seen as bad? And its can't even be that he only realized after the fact that he needed a condition because he hinted at the condition straight off. He clearly didn't think it through, which is either town, or really really poor scum play. And if it is really really poor scum play then it means theres a really really poor scum team if not one of his scumpartners pointed this out to him.

And if we're talking about this. the 'defintion' part of the lylo in his role PM, supposedly. add this rule to your calculation:

6. Endgame: In the event that a Day starts with 1 Town player and 1 Mafia player, the Mafia will immediately win.

so....basically, even if we mislynch a "mylo" according to NS, roles can exist that may prevent a win; or even in a "lylo". who knows.

so I call bullshit.

Hmmm... This is interesting because I was actually already considering this rule but I had remembered the wording of it wrong.

I thought it said that if a day starts with an equal number of town and scum the mafia would immediately win. Worded this way my thinking was this rule wouldn't make sense with scum who was hated but not in lylo because only scum who was always hated would mean a gamestate with an equal number of town and scum wouldn't technically be over. So if scum was always hated then the rule would be needed to prevent the crappy gamestate from occurring but also I assumed it was just the generic "endgame" rule whether a hated scum exists or not.

But... it is interesting because the rule specifically says 1 town and 1 mafia. That is not the generic endgame rule. So, the mafia does not automatically win if there is 2 and 2 or 3 and 3? only specifically 1 and 1? I know magua is very intentional with his word choices so it says that for a reason.

So hyothetically if NS is hated scum and there is 3 town and 3 scum alive, normally this would be game over because town could never achieve majority lynch. But scum could also not majority lynch and if NS were in the game the 3 townies could vote NS but the game would go to 2-2 the next day unless the nk was prevented, which I guess could happen maybe. But why does the "mafia wins a 1v1 endgame always" rule exist then? I guess it could be because without it NS would have a much harder time winning solo if his partners were killed off.

This may be a thing.

But the condition - the above only makes sense if the condition is a lie. NS said his role PM said:

It says that while there are more than twice the scum+1 players alive I am hated.

If it were 3v3 or 2v2 with NS alive by NS's definition he would not be hated because 6 <= 2*3 + 1.

So if the condition is not a lie then 3v3 or 2v2 is still an endgame loss for town unless there is some other mechanic or some other player is hated scum even in lylo.

I kinda wanna organize running everybody except NS to L-1 now and see who dies, but I don't have faith that someone wouldn't fuck it up.

[Rhinox]

The condition if true also points to being town because there is no reason to give a "except in lylo" condition to a hated scum.

Though I'm townreading ns, you're wrong here because the condition part could be a lie, especially given it was fed to him (someone, I think Cephrir, mentioned that the condition could be that and then ns simply confirmed)

I did say "if true" in my post. But in regards to it being fed to him, scum have daytalk so NS wouldn't need it fed to him in thread to claim it. But it could indicate Ceph and NS are both scum but... that would be a bad scum mistake.

[Rhinox]

holy hell

I don't even know what is going on in this game anymore

[Rhinox]

I don't get why we are letting Ceph live, though, especially when we already have a dead miller.

Like, you say this, but I don't recall you voting anyone other than Cabd in this game so...

[Rhinox]

I don't really think there is resistance to lynching Cabd. There have been a couple intents to hammers. Everybody in the game has voted him at some point. I really want Cabd to be scum because I don't like the answer if I have to try to form a scum team not including Cabd, but it bugs me that nobody really is against the lynch.

[Rhinox]

Here's a real question, Grey: What happens when Cabd flips town?

If Cabd is town, depending on who hammers NS and ceph are the only 2 players who would be on both hypothetical mislynch wagons.

[Rhinox]

and LLD/GI I guess

[Rhinox]

compare with ceph, who has been called scum by many, but never wagoned

The problem is nobody can say why exactly he's scum though.

[Rhinox]

no

unless you want a townlynch

So now you're basically doing the same thing that made LLD scum earlier. Why are you so sure Cabd is town now but when LLD was sure Cabd was town she was whiteknighting because she couldn't possibly be sure Cabd was town?

[Rhinox]

hold up shos I have a thought

[Rhinox]

I literally wrote vote cabd and hit tab+enter and the preview said hold on

Nevermind false alarm

I'm just being paranoid.

[Rhinox]

I was just thinking about how Cabd has been sitting at L-1 for so long, and there was speculation about day actions earlier, and wondering why there hadn't been a hammer yet if Cabd was scum.

But I think I'm overthinking it.