Newbie 2099 | GTA San Andreas | Endgame

[Rad]

Hey everyone! Only person I recognize here is Spartan. He helped me win my last town game with some good reads from the dead. Let's see if we can do that again here.

VOTE: Spartan

[Rad]

Absolutely. Scum cannot be allowed to live.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

[Rad]

Hey Juice, welcome! Feel free to set an account picture, it'll help people spot your posts while scanning better. Someone told me that in my first newbie game here and it helped

[Rad]

Fancypants alwaysnever d1 hero solve? Let's goooo!

VOTE: FancyPants E-2

[Rad]

Nah, scum can't hammer that and get away with it. But yeah probably not the best thing to let someone sit at E-1 on page 1.

UNVOTE:

[Rad]

Hi Elmk! I think that would have put him at E-3 because me and spartan weren't on him anymore. Double E-1 page 1 would have been fun though

[Rad]

Elemk** sorry

[Rad]

How about this guy who's voting himself.

VOTE: AlwaysNever

[Rad]

I am the worst at reading anything that occurs in the RVS as I can never get a good read on anything going on. Everyone is seeming sus at this point to me lol.

How convenient.

VOTE: Bulbazoor

[Rad]

Nooooo I fold under pressure What have I done...

[Rad]

This guy votes with his instinct and I can appreciate that

[Rad]

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

I'm not all that experienced so I have no opinion on your scum question and no history of rvs consistency to really point to. I only have 2 recently completed games and was only around for rvs stage in 1 of them because the second one I was a replace in.

[Rad]

Also Goldfish is still scum, my vote was serious in case anyone was wondering.

Why?

[Rad]

@Rad

How about this guy who's voting himself.

VOTE: AlwaysNever

You posted and voted.

I ask:

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?

You say:

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

I'm not all that experienced so I have no opinion on your scum question

and no history of rvs consistency to really point to. I only have 2 recently completed games and was only around for rvs stage in 1 of them because the second one I was a replace in.

You clearly do have an opinion about self voters, as you voted for AlwaysNever after he self voted.
Let me be explicit as you weaseled your way out of answering my question:

Why is Always never's self vote scummy in your eyes.

I didn't "weasle my way out of" your question. I answered it sincerely.

As for the vote, I voted for him because a) he was part of my joke about the hero solve and b) I thought it was fun to vote the guy who's voting himself since I had just jumped off your wagon. RVS is funzie time baby. Some of us were having fun with it and some of you were taking it super fucking seriously.

VOTE: AlwaysNever

Wagon immediately or scum.

I dunno how you jump from funzies

UNVOTE:
AlwaysNever just proved himself.

This post by goldfish is Garbage:

My Sus-ometer is going off I think I've found one of them VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon Rad do you want to join me?

Absolutely. Scum cannot be allowed to live.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

I swear I get RVS'ed in every game I join, I must have a particularly suspicious username or something. That or I'm always scum

Reeks of appeasement, no vote, good job guys you got em.
VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

Immediately to clearing someone simply for voting themself

Immediately to scum reading someone's very first post

@Rad, is it your experience that scum are more likely to self vote?
@Rad, is it common for you to vote for 5 different people in the RVS stage?

@Juice, what do you make of the game so far, any specific thoughts or gut shots on anybody yet?

Straight into serious questions about my obviously joking votes

You clearly do have an opinion about self voters, as you voted for AlwaysNever after he self voted.
Let me be explicit as you weaseled your way out of answering my question: Why is Always never's self vote scummy in your eyes.

And now you're taking my obvious joke RVS vote and painting it as some serious read.

Chill.

That said, you have pressured some content all around and that tends to be a townie thing. But shit man, read the room.

[Rad]

My Sus-ometer is going off I think I've found one of them VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon Rad do you want to join me?

Absolutely. Scum cannot be allowed to live.

VOTE: GoldfishFromTheMoon

I swear I get RVS'ed in every game I join, I must have a particularly suspicious username or something. That or I'm always scum

Goldfish is scum because of this post.

I feel like the response to incorrect pressure is outrage or at least annoyance, Goldfish gives us a wink, trying to appease.
Not a genuine town reaction.

I think you just don't have a strong grasp of what players are going to do in RVS. I mean I guess it's possible that you catch scum in some weird RVS but in general, on this forum, people tend to just be playful for a bit until something jumps out and can be pushed. Like goldfish winking there is just absolutely par for the course and NAI.

[Rad]

@Rad.
I'm genuinely sorry if I'm making the game less fun for you, solving the game is what I get out of it - and I feel bad if you feel me try-harding is a buzz kill.

I actually think you're probably town. Voting 5 times and expressing a "I don't give a F#%& attitude." strikes me as tonally town but I wanted to interact with you to try and sort you correctly. I like your last post; logical, genuine and most importantly not at all stressed.

To explain some behaviour: AlwaysNever self voting felt slightly too brazen and meme(y) for newb-scum, I'm not writing him off as comftown, but in my opinion his response was town. Who do you reckon is scum btw?

No worries man. I don't mean to stiffle your play either. You do you. But I think you need to realize that there's probably not as much to be gained from some of this RVS stuff as you're pushing. Regardless, again, you've pressured out some content and now we're out of RVS because of it. That's good stuff and townie as fuck.

I have no scum reads right now. Like Bulba (I think?) also noted, I tend to get some higher town reads easier and then I can focus in on my nulls.

[Rad]

UNVOTE:

[Rad]

To that end got any town reads?

You Spartan and Bulba so far town leans.

I am not getting town vibes from anyone but I lowkey like Rad so far
Spartan not so much

Whooooosssshhhhh

(Appeasement followed by a statement without any actual reasoning)

Zzoooooommm

VOTE: Bulbazoor

I like this mix of fun rvs and real read. Comes across genuine. I just disagree with the read.

Bulba's openly presenting as newbie townie who hasn't played for a while and I'm reading him that way too. Feels a lot like my recent newbie town game where I hadn't played since 2014. Just kinda lost while also kinda know what's going on, kinda laughing things off while also being a bit frustrated. I don't think I come into a new game after a long period away and just nail townie vibes as scum that easily so reading him the same.

[Rad]

So let me get this straight juice.

Fancy is definitely scum. And he's scum with either elemk or bulba. So the best move is to vote one of his maybe scum partners?

[Rad]

What felt toothless about my post. If anything I was being a bit passive aggressive

Wait, that post had teeth? You were being passive aggressive? I read that as pure wink wink nudge nudge rvs.

Hmm

[Rad]

Appreciate the answer with that said, now that we have developments, whom among all of the players right now do you think are paired in some ways? Or at least trying to not look like they're paired the most?

Why are you pushing for pairs on page 6? Wait for a flip or if YOU see something suspicious that you want to point out, fine do it. Like pushing this sort of thing this early is just going to make town hesitant to interact and give opinions when we should be pushing for open communication, not trying to find connections based on nothing.

Could also be scum here hunting for masons.

The more I think about this the less and less I like it.

[Rad]

How long have you been playing fancy? You seem pretty hyper confident in drawing conclusions. I'm not used to this level of confidence from anyone regardless of alignment.

[Rad]

Need more from Elemk, he pocketed me by saying things I agree with but again scum can come to the "right" conclusions very easily.

Are you saying he intentionally pocketed you or that you feel pocketed due to agreeing with him?

I also agree his input is lacking and we need more.

[Rad]

Juice can you show how his selective quote misrepresented you? Like explicitly spell it out for everyone showing what he didn't include and why that was deceiving.

[Rad]

If you are a PR and town - then I would suggest get your mind out the gutter and actually look for scum, instead of giving town read with the backup of filler.

This strikes me as sus. In general, it's my understanding that a town pr would want to try to avoid pushing scum too hard. Reason being, if you catch scum early as a town pr, you're more likely to be the nk and can't use your ability. I'm not saying that means elemk is a town pr, but suggesting that he should play differently if he is a town pr reeks of scum fishing out a pr claim.

Do you fundamentally disagree with the concept of how a town pr should be playing here Juice?

[Rad]

Anyway we should be putting pressure on
Spartan
Cat
Goldfish

That's where the scum are hiding.

Where do you get the idea Spartan is scum? I kinda like his content this game. It's different than how I know him to play as town but he pointed out that he would be playing in a specific manner (chaotic with min content) and the important part is the result is actually focused and relevant content. I think scum can claim meta change to hide behind differences but when the content remains townie I think that points to town.

I disagree with his read on bulba but I could be wrong, and I don't think anything he's been pointing out had been nonsense.

[Rad]

I think scum hunting always come first - irrespective of if you are PR or not.

You specifically point out that it's whatever if he's vt, but if he's a pr he should be playing better by scum hunting more.

if you actually flip town - I don't think it would be the worst thing if you end up being a regular vanilla townie. If you are a PR and town - then I would suggest get your mind out the gutter and actually look for scum, instead of giving town read with the backup of filler.

I fundamentally disagree with your suggestion and now you're back peddling on your original stance.

I gotta run (vla, hard to find time this week, sorry everyone)

[Rad]

I mean I was under the impression this was a newbie game - so there is an element of learning or re-education in these games no?

Bleh I don't want to scare you off if you're just newbie town. Learning and reconsidering stuff is fine and good. For that matter, I don't want scum to not have fun either. I'll tone down my aggression. I should have just given you a line of questioning there and let you openly reconsider your thoughts or double down but I just brought the hammer lol. My bad. I'm also limited when I can give input this week so I wanted to push that idea hard and fast.

[Rad]

Other people can check my games if they want and see Goldfish only gets good at reading me day 2 or 3.

You want us to go read multiple of your other games and try to parse goldfish misreading you until day 2 or 3... And that will tell us what exactly about either of your alignments this game?

What do you think this idea tells you about goldfish in this game?

[Rad]

and still not a he

If being misgendered bothers you, can you set them in your profile please? I'm like guaranteed to mess it up if they're not set.

[Rad]

Amended gutreads, now individuals-based instead of paired-based:
Rad - I didn't like how his mind went when he sussed me out for basically asking about possible pairings, and specifically mentioning that this look like scum hunting masons.

So you agree with my suggestion enough to start listing your reads as individuals instead of pairs, but believe it was scummy (and maybe even a scum slip!?) that I even suggested it in the first place?

What?

[Rad]

if Elmk has been replaced then this whole game is a clusterfuck for me now. what a waste of time

Can you explain what you mean here? Why would it be a waste of time when elemk gets replaced and why is it now a clusterfuck?

[Rad]

The repp - shoulld be prepared to get voted off today.

if my main scumread is being repped out - it basically takes me back to square one. Because a new player, shouldn't really be judged for reads given out from just Day one.

Which one is it? The slot should be voted out or it's not fair for them to be judged?

[Rad]

Alright I see what you're saying now juice.

[Rad]

Elemk's opening is REALLY awkward, but I think it's more likely to be town that scum. I'd like to see more posts.

Also if you don't mind can you ISO Spartan and tell me what you think?

Yes, I'll do that now. Expect to hear back in a few hours-ish.

Edit: I'm sorry i really don't have time to do this properly rn. From what I've seen the iso looks good, when I have time I'll go through and give comments on individual posts.

I think the elmek slot is scum.

Goldfish was there anything specific between these 2 posts that changed your read on the elemk slot?

[Rad]

Lol juice absolutely

Let's fire up a party in the waiting lounge

VOTE: goldfish

[Rad]

Less ted talks more momentum! We got like 4 people giving Ted talks here. Tbh if I wasn't phone posting this week we'd have 5. That kind of game is so hard to read. Let's make some moves and see what comes of it.

[Rad]

Ordered towniest to scumiest:

FancyPants
Spartan
Bulba
Juice
Cat
Alwaysnever
Goldfish
Elemk

I'm willing to jump to elemk here if we decide but also wouldn't mind giving a replacement a chance to play

Fancypants is closest to lock town for me though I do see Spartan's point about this style being doable by scum. It feels distinctly different from bbt in that bbt is aggro in both alignments and though fancy is also aggro at times, I've never seen anyone as openly solvey while being scum. Fancy's claim that his scum play differs greatly sounds sincere, follows with his open solvey approach, and I can empathize with it.

Alwaysnever is bordering on scum for similar reasons as fancy gave for goldfish. But he's one of the Ted talkers which is just difficult as scum so I'd avoid voting him today over goldfish and elemk.

[Rad]

Juice if you're going to skip on goldfish and elemk for lack of content, who are you leaning towards next?

[Rad]

I agree with this, only thing I would ask is why do you have Cat above AlwaysNever, or vice versa?

Cat's analysis of goldfish sounds sincere without shading goldfish as much as a scum!cat vs town!goldfish could get away with here. And cat vs goldfish probably isn't a SvS imo. Openness to not list any scum reads with a "take it or leave it, I don't care" mentality comes across townie.

Alwaysnever has the potential mason hunting + pairing style of day 1 reading, which was questionable and feels like appeasement when openly stating that they're switching to "individual-based reads". Lists me as null-town but sure does like to shade me on my issues with pairing, going as far as saying I could be scum simply because I'm considering the setup. Feels like manufactured shade.

[Rad]

Spartan, anything besides amount of content that's giving you a town read on alwaysnever?

[Rad]

I only think that Bulba or FP will flip mafia - if Elmk is Mafia.

Cat is my biggest town read - but when they mirrored me - I felt unsure.

I feel I should be worried about Spartan

I'm assuming your vote/unvote on goldfish is a vote which makes what FP said in #330 make sense.

With Cat being your biggest town read, which is think is a bit odd given the contrast in the amount of content given compared to others, who would you think would be Goldfish's scum partner if they get eliminated and flip scum?

Game just needs a bit of life. No one else is going to follow me on Elmk today - now that he is getting repped out.

Eh, I'll vote elemk with you if you want. Slot is scummy as is. Yeah we can give a rep a chance to help us read it better but that doesn't make it any less scummy right now, and a rep will take a couple days to really give readable content if they're even active. Apathy has a chance to build if we stall too long anyway.

VOTE: elemk

If someone comes in and wants to vote goldfish, I'll switch back as the hammer.

[Rad]

Rad can you tell me why you think Elemk is scum?

Otherwise quote the post where you gave this info, I don't remember it.

Elemk kept pushing the idea that me and fancy are town for our scum hunting and generating content, yet didn't do any of that himself. His posts are just thought bombs without any pressure. I'm very reluctant lately to just accept thought bomb posts as townie since they can easily replace interaction to look busy and it's very easy to see why someone is town when you're scum.

Also, his posts feel like they're bloated intentionally though I admit that could be a nai personality thing.

[Rad]

Although no intent has been declared yet.

I have no issue giving intent if the general consensus is happy they are scum, from reading through their ISO it is pretty lackluster, lots of lurking and lack of real townie desire to solve the puzzle seems very relaxed.

My main concern with everyone seeming happy to jump on their wagon, is who their scum partner is? Maybe they have just given up with them at this point and jumped on the wagon to get town cred I'm not sure. Either way it does make me hesitant, but in order to move this game on I feel like we need to see a flip soon.

So consider this intent to hammer (provided Juices vote is legit) although I do wish to respond back to Rad first before hand. (hopefully that gets things moving again, que escalator music)

Good post.
I think Goldfish should have claimed but the pressure was pilfered at the last second by Rad.

Oh don't get me wrong. Goldfish should still feel pressured here and claim. I will hammer him if we get back to E-1 or if elemk wagon goes nowhere.

[Rad]

I know this is obvious but I ain't voting Elemk unless one of these two criteria are met:
1. Someone actually posts a case that convinces me.

2. To avoid a no-lim at the end of the day.

I'm not saying you are scum Rad but I want to understand this suspicious of Elemk from quite a few people. Please help.

we all know you are never going to vote Elmk - because you town read him for agreeing with you.

I think that's an over simplification of my feelings about Elemk. I mainly want reasons for why that slot is scummy. I just don't see the case.

Also @Rad/Spartan do you mind sharing that last game that you two keep referring to? Where Spartan was elimed day 1, but named the scum team helping Rad wrap them up.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89529

[Rad]

I agree with this, only thing I would ask is why do you have Cat above AlwaysNever, or vice versa?

Cat's analysis of goldfish sounds sincere without shading goldfish as much as a scum!cat vs town!goldfish could get away with here. And cat vs goldfish probably isn't a SvS imo. Openness to not list any scum reads with a "take it or leave it, I don't care" mentality comes across townie.

Alwaysnever has the potential mason hunting + pairing style of day 1 reading, which was questionable and feels like appeasement when openly stating that they're switching to "individual-based reads". Lists me as null-town but sure does like to shade me on my issues with pairing, going as far as saying I could be scum simply because I'm considering the setup. Feels like manufactured shade.

If you think Cat is Town or at the very least are leaning that way, who do you think is Goldfish's scum partner?

I also didnt like the pair matching so early on, although I don't think that alone would make him scum, I got general townish vibes when i saw his posts, I will need to go and give his ISO a proper read and pick out what I think is specifically townie or if anything pings me as scummy.

Absolutely no clue about potential pairs right now. At least 1 scum in goldfish elemk alwaysnever, maybe both, is my current thought.

[Rad]

Rad can you tell me why you think Elemk is scum?

Otherwise quote the post where you gave this info, I don't remember it.

Elemk kept pushing the idea that me and fancy are town for our scum hunting and generating content, yet didn't do any of that himself. His posts are just thought bombs without any pressure. I'm very reluctant lately to just accept thought bomb posts as townie since they can easily replace interaction to look busy and it's very easy to see why someone is town when you're scum.

Also, his posts feel like they're bloated intentionally though I admit that could be a nai personality thing.

I can accept that to an extent, information instead of analysis is essentially non-scum hunting.

That said you could say the same about Goldfish/Spartan/Cat/AlwaysNever (even Bulba a little) where they post without actual pressure or suspicion.

Out of interest how do you feel about post 188 by Elemk?

Sorry gotta run, will try to respond to this later

[Rad]

I'll move my vote back to goldfish then.

VOTE: goldfish

I think Spartan gave intent to hammer earlier and I think this puts goldfish at E-1 again now.

[Rad]

Juice, my predecessor's reads have absolutely no bearing on my take of the game.

Two completely different people.

My problem with this is if you're town, you basically get some free town perspective reads from your slot's previous owner. I would absolutely take that into account. You disagree?

Also yoooo bbt replacement, I love it, and of course he comes out swinging too this is like copy paste nai bbt entrance with regards to style. Will start to consider the actual content though. You caught up yet bbt or still working through those last 6 pages?

[Rad]

Bbt thoughts on goldfish? She is at E-1. Me and juice wanted to flip your slot but fancy has been reading it town. I guess I should just let you catch up but I'm curious to get some more thoughts here. Spartan has claimed intent to hammer which may still be in effect but goldfish is nowhere to be found.

[Rad]

Hi BBt

I need Goldfish to weigh in before I can really continue with this game.

I get that we were at a standstill with goldfish at E-1 and no response but bbt's entry is new content. So let's continue? Any new thoughts on elemk slot?

[Rad]

No reason to drag this on anymore. Goldfish is probably just scum who's afk now. We gave her a chance to claim and fight out of this lim. We're down to a little over 2 days. Lots of likely town fighting and getting frustrated. We need some new info to talk about and a flip will do that.

Someone please hammer

[Rad]

What's driving this confidence in scum!Juice BBT? I read end of D1 Juice as apathetic town who thinks Goldfish is probably town but wants to move on already. I don't think scum just blatantly declares goldfish is town there when he's clearly going to be the flip?

[Rad]

Zzzz really no one's doing any talking except bbt and juice (with special guest Bulba!)?

I was expecting someone to run in with some mech info we could discuss.

What are the chances that our lurkers are the scum pair and just didn't bother to submit a night kill?

VOTE: Cat

Neither Cat nor AlwaysNever had any votes beyond the initial RVS votes. Goldfish had a meta scum read on Cat and we know Gold was town so I'm happy to sit my vote here. Scum team is probably something stupid like Cat/AlwaysNever.

[Rad]

VOTE: BBT Don't see someone town having this approach

Can you explain what it is about bbt's approach that makes him scum? You seem to think he's lying, and that makes him scum? Is that it? Like, maybe he's scum here, but it's not because he's just straight lying about your play. It's ridiculously easy to verify that you were more interested in a Elemk wagon than the Goldfish wagon. I think what he's saying is that you certainly didn't push very hard. In fact I would agree with that:

I only think that Bulba or FP will flip mafia - if Elmk is Mafia.

Cat is my biggest town read - but when they mirrored me - I felt unsure.

I feel I should be worried about Spartan

I'm assuming your vote/unvote on goldfish is a vote which makes what FP said in #330 make sense.

With Cat being your biggest town read, which is think is a bit odd given the contrast in the amount of content given compared to others, who would you think would be Goldfish's scum partner if they get eliminated and flip scum?

Game just needs a bit of life. No one else is going to follow me on Elmk today - now that he is getting repped out.

Eh, I'll vote elemk with you if you want. Slot is scummy as is. Yeah we can give a rep a chance to help us read it better but that doesn't make it any less scummy right now, and a rep will take a couple days to really give readable content if they're even active. Apathy has a chance to build if we stall too long anyway.

VOTE: elemk

If someone comes in and wants to vote goldfish, I'll switch back as the hammer.

Going take a lot more than two to get a slot gone.

I'm resigned to the fact he isn't being lynched today - pushing for it would be obstructive, even if I am correct. With only 2 mafia with this setup - we have a few MLs to work with

I jump on your Elemk wagon and you just immediately deflate it.

I dunno what that means with regards to you being scum or town, but it definitely backs the idea that you didn't push hard against the Goldfish wagon, which is the idea BBT's running on here.

Is it a great point in the case for scum!Juice? Eh, I'll chew on it some. Is it BBT lying about your play? No...

[Rad]

Crushing that goldfish didn't flip scum with the way she played.

Cool. Great. Bummer. Who's scum Bulba?

[Rad]

I think AlwaysNever is probably town and would appreciate your support in the form of a vote on Juice.

Why is he probably town? You kidding me?

[Rad]

I dunno cat. Do you have any updated reads/thoughts? You've taken no hard stances all game and I dunno what to think about that. It would certainly be an easy route to take if you're scum. You even checking back into the game like this probably rules out the cat/alwaysnever team no kill cause they quit the game theory but you're still just fence sitting all game.

[Rad]

I would also be down to vote cat

The solo vote on AlwaysNever here when we got 2 on cat is weird, especially when you follow up with being open to just voting cat? Why didn't you just vote cat?

What's your reasoning for AlwaysNever here bulba?

[Rad]

I want to know what Spartan and FP think about Cat and if they would vote them - I wasn't obstructive before. But I won't join any wagon with Cat on the line,

I'm unsure about Cat, it doesn't look like Cat and BBT are a pair, unless that was some recent scum theatrics. I don't like how 3 people have jumped on their wagon with the general premise relating to their activity which is what happened with Goldfish, I feel like it is way more than likely that 1 scum is on their wagon.

With 3 votes on them currently and 5 to eliminate I do not intend to put my vote on Cat currently, this game has been painfully slow with large periods of inactivity, I dont think its as simple as the scum are just being inactive.

Always never being missing doesn't help to sort their slot, and I don't like that Bulba ignored my question, I feel like they are just trying to get through the day, slot onto the wagon that others are pushing and get to the night phase where they can try again. So for that reason my vote today resides here.

VOTE: Bulbazoor

I like your reasoning but I don't like this pick. Let's go BBT?

VOTE: BBT

[Rad]

Ngl I expected to wake up and see a counter vote from scum!bbt on me. Maybe not scum here, heh

Spartan's thought on 1 scum being on cat right now seems reasonable, I just disagreed with which person was scum.

VOTE: Bulba

[Rad]

Ngl I expected to wake up and see a counter vote from scum!bbt on me. Maybe not scum here, heh

Spartan's thought on 1 scum being on cat right now seems reasonable, I just disagreed with which person was scum.

VOTE: Bulba

Why does it seem reasonable? Why only 1? Why not both? Or none? Explain more.

There's no steam on the Cat wagon. So I read 2 possible reasons for that. Cat could be scum and it's hard to flip scum. If cat flipped scum here, I think it clears me, BBT, and Bulba cause really there's no reason to bus here. However, Juice is reading Cat strongly town here and I'm reading Juice strongly town so I'm reluctant with that idea. Further I think cat's entry during this day and the response to being voted has felt pretty townie so I'm even more reluctant on scum!cat.

The other option then is that 1 or both scum are already on town!Cat. I know I'm town so that leaves BBT and Bulba. BBT's reaction to my vote on him didn't feel like what I'd expect from scum!BBT. That leaves Bulba.

I guess a third possibility for the lack of steam on the Cat wagon is AlwaysNever is scum.

[Rad]

Hey Fancy. I'm not an SE btw.

I'm not against the cat wagon continuing here and I might jump back on. I could be overthinking it for sure. I was also leaning on Juice and Spartan reads there as Juice is my strongest town read and Spartan's historically better at reading than I am. You're also a town read for me but you've been absent due to VLA. I realize that part of the wagon losing steam was you not being here. I still don't know that we get a flip here even if I jump back on for E-1.

Spartan are you totally against the cat wagon? I know Juice is.

We could settle for AlwaysNever. Seems like just about everyone's down for that except BBT? Juice you up for AlwaysNever?

[Rad]

Can you say why that slot was scummy?

Yeah I answered you here already:

Rad can you tell me why you think Elemk is scum?

Otherwise quote the post where you gave this info, I don't remember it.

Elemk kept pushing the idea that me and fancy are town for our scum hunting and generating content, yet didn't do any of that himself. His posts are just thought bombs without any pressure. I'm very reluctant lately to just accept thought bomb posts as townie since they can easily replace interaction to look busy and it's very easy to see why someone is town when you're scum.

Also, his posts feel like they're bloated intentionally though I admit that could be a nai personality thing.

[Rad]

@Rad also minor note, you may not be SE but if you're "mafia scum" it means you have 1000 posts plus on the the site which means my point about your experience stands.

I mean, I've been playing pretty hardcore for about a month and a half now. Last time i played was 2014 and that was maybe 3-5 newbie games on a different site. I'm not a fresh newbie, sure, but I still consider myself terrible at the game and wouldn't label myself SE yet. I think there's something more gained from finishing games (or even just completing days where you get a flip) than there is from simply playing in them when you have no idea how accurate your reads actually are.

[Rad]

Hey welcome Flowerdogs.

Can our non-voters please vote? Exception being Flowerdogs while they catch up. We're going to have to consolidate eventually so let's see what the wagons look like with everyone voting first.

[Rad]

Ehhh, Spartan v Bulba's feeling more and more like TvT with some extreme tunneling. Like if all scum!Bulba had to do to appease town!Spartan was to answer his question to Spartan's satisfaction, don't you think he'd have clearly done it by now?

can we vote out scum today and see that I’m clearly not paired with them

Why are you still fence sitting here while suggesting town should "vote out scum" so you can be cleared as not paired with said scum? What? How does that even work?

VOTE: Cat

[Rad]

That's E-1 I think.

[Rad]

The most annoying thing is I did answer his question.

Clearly not to his satisfaction. I think a scum!Bulba is probably less openly annoyed here and more just figuring out why Spartan's not satisfied with his answer, cause what heat does scum!Bulba have this game beyond Spartan's tunneling here?

[Rad]

Spartan's probably town here. End of D1 I felt like his emotions towards BBT were sincere. This push on Bulba feels more misguided than scum agenda driven. I mean he's really putting himself out there on this one and if Bulba flips town here, what did scum!Spartan gain? He's now in the spotlight as the most anti-Bulba player.

If cat flips red this could be scum partner trying to push a counter wagon? But I also doubt that because it's just so all-in here. Cat partner would more likely be hanging back or even bussing rather than hard defending?

I do like how active your entry here is and think it's smart to give you some more time to interact before a flip.

UNVOTE:

Cat wagon can wait.

[Rad]

Bulb what's your read on flower's entry and content so far?

[Rad]

Well, I know you want me to say bbt, bulba, Spartan. And that's probably my order anyway, but bbt and bulba are more equals than ordered there. This isn't bbt's scum game from my experience with him but he's still doing questionable shit that I don't love. I read a previous game of his recently and had him as my top town read all game only to find out when the game ended he was scum. I hard defended him in my first newbie and he was scum. He's doing nothing here that I expect scum bbt to do and I think his town play is just scummy in general. I leaned on that fact in my scum game against him.

Bulba just feels like frustrated town in all these interactions but I don't think that would be particularly hard to manufacture. I'd like to see some real reads and analysis so I could judge something less abstract than tone. I also don't love that he needs to be prompted to give content.

Spartan is just townie here imo so I'm comfortable just putting him as town.

[Rad]

Cat, BBT, Bulba are my POE. I think flower has successfully clawed that slot into neutral or even town lean. I was ready to flip AlwaysNever.

Why are you so convinced in town!Cat? Just tone?

[Rad]

@Rad – how sure are you that Spartan is town? in 687, the Spartan emotion tell is one that i think i had already mentioned in my 683 wall.

I mean, I'm not sure anyone's town besides myself? I'd be more shocked if Fancy or Juice flipped red than Spartan for sure.

My town emotions read on him comes from this part specifically which extends from the newbie game where the 3 of us were in:

Spoiler:

By asking people to unvote?

That's quite the jump you've made!

No by telling me I can't hammer, it's very obnoxious behaviour.

Is obnoxious a synonym for scummy?

Dunno, in your case maybe, I just dont enjoy your 'style of play' if you can call it that, didn't like it last game don't like it this game.

That sounds like a you problem.

I dont really care if you eliminate me with votes or during the night, I'd honestly rather sub out but I don't see what help.thwt does the others having a 3rd slot sub out for them to re-sort.

I mean worst case scenario is scum!Spartan has pocketed me. I'm keeping that in mind. I still think his actions this game have read as townie though so it's more likely he's just town here.

If a Spartan wagon sprang to life here you wouldn't find me on it.

[Rad]

Maybe. Let's give it some more time though. Flower's ramping up and has already put out a lot of content that people can interact with. Fancy's coming back from VLA today I believe? I think it'll get interesting in the next day or two. I know we're running low on time but I think there'll be a lot of content in the next 24 hours.

[Rad]

My reply there was @Juice

[Rad]

If people change their scum reads after Day 2 - it will also rouse suspicion

I mean, who cares if it rouses suspicion? If someone's read changes after day 2 they should announce it and give reasons and people should decide if the change is townie or scummy.

In the game where I hard defended scum!BBT I changed my read on him in day 3 and won the game for it. Yeah I caught shit for it. Yeah I was still town regardless and luckily I didn't go into day 3 assuming my reads prior to that were absolutely on point.

[Rad]

Bulba you've read Flower's content?

[Rad]

Yeah I dunno why this game is so dreadfully slow at times. I was seriously thinking we were about to pick way up and then nothing from anyone.

I'll give my nominations before day end but I was hoping we would have some more content first.

[Rad]

I'm not making a decision until bbt and bulba have had some input into this process. In the meantime I'll iso cat and come to a conclusion there. If we run dangerously low on time and haven't seen anything from bbt/bulba to help make up my mind I'll settle with juice's choices. Let's say dangerously low is 24 hours left? Though I'm kinda feeling we might be dangerously low right now... Lemme at least look at cat again...

[Rad]

Also @Juice I was thinking what if we also did a similar thing like what FP has done here on the last 2 people we would want to eliminate to try and gauge where everyone stands with that. I get its less important than the bottom two but for example here FP's last two, I assume strongest town reads (along with juice)? are the same two that 3 other players would put in their bottom two, I'm curious what it would look like.

My 2 least likely would be Juice and I guess FP.

also I'm happy to do this! Juice is my top town & second I'm less sure but would probably be Rad. (third would be Fancy but i've interacted with Rad more & the interactions have been fine)

Juice and fancy for me

[Rad]

I'm not making a decision until bbt and bulba have had some input into this process. In the meantime I'll iso cat and come to a conclusion there. If we run dangerously low on time and haven't seen anything from bbt/bulba to help make up my mind I'll settle with juice's choices. Let's say dangerously low is 24 hours left? Though I'm kinda feeling we might be dangerously low right now... Lemme at least look at cat again...

@Rad -- super curious if your read on Cat changes! + do you think a t!Juice, w!Cat world makes sense here? vvv

as for that BBT/Cat interaction today (my initial reason for scumreading Cat) <<--<<snip>>-->> i also don't think w!Cat puts themself on the line to defend t!Juice so intensely; if Juice is town & so widely townread, it's surely in the best interest for wolves to make Juice seem suspicious for end of day one.

(especially since BBT (and to a lesser degree Fancy), at the opening of day two, already placed sun on Juice for xer end of day one)

Why wouldn't scum!cat go to bat for someone who not only reads them as town (potentially solidifying that read) and is one of the highest town read players, but also knows that's town!juice isn't doing anything actually scum motivated there? Shading highly town read players isn't the only thing scum would shoot for ya know? That's probably a reasonable common strat but positioning is more complex than that always being the best move.

[Rad]

Further, cat's no newbie so I don't think we can place her into a "scum would/wouldn't do this" box so easily. By her own admission.

They've all done what I expect of scum in newbies - that is not commit on scum reads at all, and throw out some token town reads.

I’m not going to talk about my own mega like Goldfish but a) not really a newbie, play on diff private server b) because of private server what you expect of newbie scum does not translate onto me and also I don’t really think that is right in general
With that being said I am sorry I have not been contributing a lot, my last game this happened and I was voted day 1 instead of the cult leader they were originally going to go with

[Rad]

Juice: Bulba / BBT
Spartan: Bulba/ BBT
Bulba: Cat/AlwaysNever
Cat: Bulba/BBT
FP: Cat/Spartan
Flower: Bulba/BBT


BBT
Rad

Bulba has 4
BBT has 4
Cat has 2

BBT and Rad - really curious to know where you actually sit on this.

I'm not making a decision until bbt and bulba have had some input into this process.

In the meantime I'll iso cat and come to a conclusion there.

If we run dangerously low on time and haven't seen anything from bbt/bulba to help make up my mind I'll settle with juice's choices.

Let's say dangerously low is 24 hours left? Though I'm kinda feeling we might be dangerously low right now... Lemme at least look at cat again...

I will say my reread of cat didn't help ease the scum read at all. Tonight I'll have more time to focus and if bbt hasn't shown back up I'll do an iso dive there as well. If bulba still hasn't posted anything I can analyze then iso there as well as review Spartan's case.

I would love for juice to give a perspective on why cat is town here.

I haven't read through Fancy's recent stuff in depth yet but it looks fun gotta watch out for drunk posting though, take it from me you can waste all your town cred instantly

[Rad]

My snap nomination is cat bulba. I meta read BBT as town here but I don't trust my reads on bbt in general and his questioning rants have been questionable. Bulba has been promising input here and has presented nothing and I have no meta to pull from for them.

[Rad]

Juice - is cat the compromise vote to vote with your town block? Cause I feel like you should be voting bbt here, and I'd consider doing that with you, but fp hard vetoes it and all of us have cat as top pick. Is that your thinking?

[Rad]

Yo fancy. I don't hard read BBT scum here. I have mentioned why I have problems with the slot though. From a meta perspective I actually read him town here.

[Rad]

Fancy chill please. I got off cat so flower could catch up and then we started doing this nomination thing. I'm trying to hear out juice's plan here. I'm fully willing and ready to jump back on cat wagon shortly. You know I'm not one to be afraid to vote so back off for a bit.

[Rad]

You're fence sitting to save your partner and don't want to commit either way.

I was the first on cats wagon today so unless you believe that's a sick scum play to immediately bus my partner, this thought makes no sense

Vote Count 2.01

————

Cat.Jpeg (3):

Rad, BlueBloodedToffee, Bulbazoor

BlueBloodedToffee (1):

Juice

Not Voting (4):

Cat.Jpeg, AlwaysNever, Spartan117, FancyPants

With 8 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 2 is August 23 at 01:20 AM GMT +8

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-08-23 01:20:00)

Fear not, I'll be back on it shortly.

[Rad]

VOTE: cat

E-1

[Rad]

Town
Juice
fancy

Town lean
Flower
Spartan

Null
Bulba
Bbt

Scum
Cat

[Rad]

If his strongest scumread was somebody, why would he vote for the people he is not as sure of? It is not rocket science. Or maybe I just misunderstood what rad meant.

You understood me correctly.

[Rad]

Woo Bulba with a decision.

I think this is the Unofficial VC:

Cat.Jpeg (4): BlueBloodedToffee, FancyPants, Juice, Rad (E-1)
BlueBloodedToffee (3): Cat.Jpeg, Spartan117, Bulbazoor
Spartan (1): flowerdogs

[Rad]

I don't think town!Rad would have many problems town reading me here

I read over your 2098 and 2095 games recently. In 2098 I townlocked you as my highest town read and you were scum. In 2095 I leaned town and you did end up as town, but I had you right next to null there. And of course in our 2096 game I hard defended you much of the game and only turned on you because I decided to sheep dead town reads in a lucky gambit. I dunno where you're getting the idea that I'm capable of easily reading you but it's just not true.

[Rad]

This is a really, really bad idea.

Look at the composition of my wagon.

You have a very good point. I will need to iso cat and I guess I will do that today.

Dude why haven't you iso'd the main wagon yet??

[Rad]

16 hours till deadline

[Rad]

BBT I checked back and you're right, I didn't really engage you much. That's just coincidence though. You were talking plenty in thread and I never had to push you for you to make content. I'd have engaged with you more if I felt like I needed specific content from you. Simple as that. Reading and judging that content from you is difficult for me whether it's something I pushed you to make or you just made it on your own.

[Rad]

BBT I checked back and you're right, I didn't really engage you much. That's just coincidence though. You were talking plenty in thread and I never had to push you for you to make content. I'd have engaged with you more if I felt like I needed specific content from you. Simple as that. Reading and judging that content from you is difficult for me whether it's something I pushed you to make or you just made it on your own.

Rad do you scum read me?

Nope and I don't know why so many other people are

[Rad]

[Rad]

I don't know this newbie set up well though when I last played a newbie the set up was different.

I'm. Looking for opinions from people like BBT/Bulba/Rad i.e. People who know this set up and hae some experience with it.

There's no way to really know the setup until someone claims. Scum should have a vague idea of what's going on but they can't know for sure until they find out if there's a doc or jk. That's assuming mafia isn't just no-killing each night which I think is safe to assume here. As soon as 1 PR claims, scum knows the setup, so if we get 1 PR to claim here we should also just mass claim so town knows as much as scum. You can see the setups on page 1 to better understand what's going on so far. There's 3 possible setups, scum will know which column the game is but they won't know which row it is until a town PR claims or they've spotted a town PR breadcrumb or something like that.

[Rad]

As soon as 1 PR claims, scum knows the setup, so if we get 1 PR to claim here we should also just mass claim so town knows as much as scum

Eh let me reconsider this part. I don't know if it's 100% best idea for second PR to claim just because 1 PR claimed. Sure it does put scum and town on even ground with regards to knowing the setup, but the other PR should consider the implications of them claiming before they do it.

[Rad]

1 more correction, I guess in the C scenario, mafia knows there's a JK since C doesn't have the option of a Doc.

[Rad]

Setup Info

Newbie Setup

Newbie Setup

NewD3 (as designed by RadiantCowbells):

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates one mafia role from the top of a column, and then two town roles from a row below the selected mafia role. The remaining six roles will be filled in by

one mafia goon

and

five vanilla townies

appropriately, to create a

2-mafia

and

7-town

setup.

All Newbie games use the Natural Action Resolution system for determining Night action effects.

Mafia Roleblocker

action takes precedence over a

Town Jailkeeper

action should that apply.

Mafia are able to communicate in their Private Topic at all times.

Spoiler: Full Setups

Column A & Row 1:

Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Cop, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column A & Row 2:

Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column A & Row 3:

Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column B & Row 1:

Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column B & Row 2:

Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column B & Row 3:

Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5

Column C & Row 1:

Mafia Goon x 2, Town Cop, Vanilla Townie x 6

Column C & Row 2:

Mafia Goon x 2, Town Jailkeeper, Vanilla Townie x 6

Column C & Row 3:

Mafia Goon x 2, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5

Sample Role PM's (click on the spoiler button to reveal)

Spoiler:

Vanilla Townie

Welcome!

You are a

Vanilla Townie

.

You have no special abilities.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town Jailkeeper

Welcome!

You are a

Town Jailkeeper

.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from kills and be prevented from using their own action, if they have one, during that night phase. You cannot target yourself.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town Cop

Welcome!

You are a

Town Cop

.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed if they are

Town

or

Mafia

. If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town Mason

Welcome!

You are a

Town Mason

.

You know that [player] is Town-aligned. You also share a Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You have no active abilities.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Town Tracker

Welcome!

You are a

Town Tracker

.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed what player or players they targeted with their action, if any. If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town Doctor

Welcome!

You are a

Town Doctor

.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be protected from kills during that night phase. You cannot target yourself.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Town Friendly Neighbor

Welcome!

You are a

Town Friendly Neighbor

.

You may target one player per night phase. This player will be sent a message informing them that you are Town-aligned.

You win when there are no longer any threats to town.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment.

Mafia Goon

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Goon

.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Mafia Rolecop

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Rolecop

.

You may target one player per night phase. At the end of the night phase, you will be informed of their role but not their alignment.

Vanilla Townies

and

Mafia Goons

will both return "Vanilla". If you are roleblocked, you will receive no result.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You may commit the kill and perform a role cop in the same night phase. You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

Mafia Roleblocker

Welcome!

You are a

Mafia Roleblocker

.

You may target one player per night. This player will be prevented from performing their own action, if any.

You and your partner share a factional kill each night. You must choose which of you will commit the kill. You may commit the kill and perform a roleblock in the same night phase. You also share a factional Private Thread (PT), located here, where you may talk at any time.

You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

The game thread is here.

Confirm by replying with your role name and alignment or by posting in your PT.

[Rad]

I don't think you do VTs first, no. That's just letting scum know who the PRs are.

I think if a PR has info that can help town here, it's probably best for them to claim, otherwise I don't see why they would unless they're at risk of being limed.

We could mass claim or we could let PRs decide if they have relevant info to help town. I'm really not an expert on how to best utilize mechanics here, I just understand the potential setups in a newbie game.

[Rad]

If no claim, then the PR has decided that their info isn't relevant enough to risk being NK'd over, and we play the game like normal.

[Rad]

Yeah the more i think about it the more i lean towards not forcing a mass claim. If a PR has info that helps, they should weigh how much it helps with their risk of being the next NK. Also weigh how much their info would have helped town if they were tonight's NK and that info was never revealed.

[Rad]

Yeah OK I'm not married to the idea I'd just like to have a 2/4 or 2/3 rather than the 2/6 I'm currently staring at.

I definitely need a reread with the context of both wagons being town.

Might have time this evening definitely will tomorrow. Posting from my. Phone at the moment.

Yeah I'm not against us deciding to mass claim either. The results could potentially be game winning here. I think each PR might know best if that's the case though.

[Rad]

Alrighty juice, we can do this then. I'm not pr.

[Rad]

if you jail someone - they can't be hit by a night kill

Also means that their action is blocked. So technically if you jail the mafia night killer, they don't do the night kill, I believe.

Knowing I'm town though and believing Fancy is town, to me this reads as... mafia targeted fancy n1 due to being obvtown, got blocked, and n2 decided to target someone less obvtown.

[Rad]

You choose who goes to do the night kill. If that person you chose gets jailed, the night kill wouldn't go through, is my understanding. So JK works as both a doc and a roleblocker.

[Rad]

So I believe the FP being targeted N1 makes sense, although I'm less sure of Rad being targeted N2 since there was varying suspicion from a few players on their slot so makes it feel less of a priority elimination and more likely 1 of the scum alongside either Bulba or Flowers IMO.

I mean it makes sense to me knowing I'm town, but I get the hesitation. Who after Fancy and Juice do you think is most highly town read? I'd say me, wouldn't you? So if you're scum trying to figure out a target, do you try for someone so heavily town read after being blocked the first night? Or do you target someone good enough? Hell me being NK target probably causes some crazy wifom too that I'll have to think about.

[Rad]

What's your role Spartan and do you have any info for us?

[Rad]

Mech question for someone - Is a 2v2 where 2 scum are alive vs 2 town an auto win for scum?

[Rad]

I don't think it's Rad and BBT. I am inclined to believe it was someone that named me and BBT as their lynch suspects as they saw a possibility of getting me lynched.

I mean BBT and Rad are not partners imo.

I am pleasantly surprised. One of my other pairings was BBT and Rad. Nice

How convenient that we're definitely not partners and then totally one of the teams you were thinking all along.

I think it's Bulba/Flower here. Bulba pushing for a bus on BBT probably doesn't lead to a win.

Remaining: Juice, Fancy, Spartan, Flower, Bulba, BBT, Rad (7)

D3: BBT mislim
N3: No kill while Juice jails me, framing me
Start D4: Juice, Fancy, Spartan, Flower, Bulba, Rad (6)
D4: Rad mislim
N4: Kill anyone
Start D5: something like Fancy, Spartan, Flower, Bulba (4)
D5: Bulba + Flower vs 2 townie = scum win

Depending on Spartan's role here, that gives scum a 50% chance to win at end game or 100% if they have a roleblocker.

Pedit

K so spartan's tracker, means we have roleblocker, and that's a 100% mafia win

[Rad]

PoE baby. Bulba's scum here and I don't think he pushes for a bus. Bulba/BBT can't win with a bus. I know I'm town. ---> Flower <---

[Rad]

Spartan share your juicy info with us already

[Rad]

rofl

I'll do some thinking about BBT/Flower I think Bulba's scum here though and pushing Rad/BBT is his best move.

[Rad]

Why do you think that clears you Bulba? I have to look back at the interactions but scum doesn't have to be on a ML wagon for it to be successful. 1 can be on, 1 can be off. Both can be off. Like it doesn't clear you at all.

Vote Count 2.06

————

Cat.Jpeg (5):

BlueBloodedToffee, FancyPants, Rad, flowerdogs, Juice

[ELIMINATION]

BlueBloodedToffee (3):

Cat.Jpeg, Spartan117, Bulbazoor

With 8 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 2 is August 23 at 01:20 AM GMT +8

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-08-23 01:20:00)

Look at you and flower positioning yourself nicely.

[Rad]

I can respond more detailed in about 4 hours, which is the normal time I get to sit down and really dig into a game. At a glance, couple things. Both bulba and flower are leaning heavily on LAMIST here with bulba even trying to supplement that with stuff like "I am sorry but flower just comes across so town". This helps me feel better in my bulba/flower solve scenario so I hope if I get flipped here that's taken into account. Bulba/flower should feel pressured to attack me in the scenario they're a scum team so that makes sense, plus bbt hard reads flower town so I think once I revealed I know their team they must have decided to drop any attempt at flipping bbt. I'll see what else I can come up with when I get a chance to later tonight.

[Rad]

Alright I've been looking through Flower tonight. Here's some stuff I've come up with so far. I don't think I have time or patience to finish it tonight though. So if you guys decide to flip me, you can use this as my legacy.

just some initial thoughts skimming the thread (i thought i was actually going to be able to take a break...) -- mafia definitely want at least one member off cat wagon when cat flips town so that's not a good defense from bulb.

Yeah I agree it's a bad defense. But you believe me and BBT are the scum pair. So that wagon just doesn't make sense with your thoughts here considering me and BBT were first on it, I only jumped off to give you time, and then I jumped back on later.

@rad -- if you are town please please help me find you as town!! what do you think is the towniest thing you've done this game?

also @Juice -- what is the towniest thing you think Rad has done?

This is not only a wild question to ask someone about me, but even more wild to ask me about me. Seriously what? How am I supposed to answer that? I can't even tell you the towniest thing I did in any of my previously completed games. How am I or anyone supposed to quantify that? It feels like a bs question because it just can't be answered properly. All you gotta do is say "ehh I can see Rad doing that as scum" and you've countered my action completely regardless of my alignment.

Like it can really only be answered with some sort of mechanics play which I just don't have as a VT.

See watch this. How about when you pleaded for Cat to not be hammered in 686 so you could catch up and I jumped off in 687 so you didn't feel pressured to produce content before a flip? Why doesn't scum!Rad just chill and let you feel that pressure?

from my pov i seriously need to consider rad + bbt... (whereas in my mind i've pairing bbt/bulb since day two)

uh huh wants to consider Rad/BBT but has been thinking BBT/Bulb. Got it. Has never actually voted Bulb. Flower's votes have been BBT, Spartan, Cat, and Rad.

ok so this should mean to everyone that if i am mafia then my only partner can be rad right??

it makes sense to consider this world (w!flowerdogs world) but... even so, in this case it always makes sense to vote rad over me since i ONLY have w/w equity with rad

Flower attempts to set up a clear for themself for when I flip green.

my vote is on Bulb (not actually voting rn so as not to accidentally hammer)

Setting up a bus

@spartan this is still so hard because i actually think bulb comes out of this looking townier than before :/ -- i think this is how you are reading your reaction test results too? from my pov i seriously need to consider rad + bbt... (whereas in my mind i've pairing bbt/bulb since day two)

Avoiding the bus

I leaned pretty hard on AlwaysNever being scum and I think Flower's pleasant style of play just made me read them town. That's my bad. With a more limited pool of scum to choose from, I feel like it's pretty clear what Flower's been up to here.

VOTE: Flower

[Rad]

Rad do you TR BBT?

No. I just scum read you and don't think you guys would bus here. I could certainly be wrong. I need to read over you both again tomorrow.

Why is it me and flower as opposed to BBT with me or flower? BBT is voting you after all

Yeah could be bbt flower. Could be Spartan/x if we're honest here. That was super well played if scum!Spartan though so I just doubt it. If we're in group C scum!Spartan knew it before juice claimed because of the nk blocks. And his track didn't lead to anything productive. So it's an easy claim, unless I'm misunderstanding the chart *Shrug*

[Rad]

One thing I can relate with you on is the scumreading alwaysnever but townreading flower. I originally did see alwaysnever as scum and I was hellbent on targeting them. If you go back to my day 2, I tried to start a BW on them. The argument that I was all buddy buddy with flower's slot does not hold up here. What is your read on the BBT slot Rad?

Ok but bussing can and does happen. In scum rad+bbt team I bus elemk remember? And bbt is supposedly busing me now. So by your own logic that team should be out.

[Rad]

That flower move where I said setting up a bus, avoiding the bus, considering it more, could also be just pure opportunistic play in a bbt flower scenario

[Rad]

You gladiating me right now Flower? I'm down

[Rad]

Flower <------> Rad

PICK

[Rad]

One last thought: I don't see why mafia would target rad instead of someone like juice for a night kill. This contributes a lot to my belief that rad is mafia.

I've explained this. If Fancy is the n1 target and blocked, it makes no sense for scum to continue targeting strong town reads. Targeting Juice is incredibly risky given the scum already got blocked on a high town read, and Juice was higher than Fancy d2. So they go for a third best "good enough" and target me. Done. That's what happened. I don't get why Bulba wouldn't be considering that line of thinking.

[Rad]

Let’s let Rad say something and then eliminate him.

Oof what a thing to wake up to. Well I'm sure you guys will be fine even after I flip green. Had fun but happy to go now.

VOTE: rad

[Rad]

Town
Juice
fancy

Town lean
Flower
Spartan

Null
Bulba
Bbt

Scum
Cat

@Rad what made you want to ISO flowers, last time you posted a read list he was a town lean for you.

This is kinda the first case you’ve ‘started’ on anyone this game.

Yeah I used to enjoy doing cases. But they take a lot of effort and people usually just ignore them. Obviously I started to case flower here because my solve is Bulba/Flower, some things pinged me recently from flower, and I wanted to dig into that slot more.

I don't have a lot of time today to effort. You guys are pretty settled on flipping me. I don't see why I'd hold you back. And anyway, I think it's an easy solve from here when I flip green so go get em!

[Rad]

UNVOTE:

You thinking Fancy here juice? scum!Fancy has already won this game for sure. It just seems too unlikely.

[Rad]

Yeah I mean those exact thoughts went through my head when you revealed as jk and with your targets, but Fancy just doesn't read as scum here. I recall this in particular feeling genuine:

What's your effectiveness as scum?
Bad, I usually replace out or get lynched. I have no interest in playing scum, I mostly play the game to "play detective" the deception side of the game doesn't interest me. I will try harder next time I get scum, but I struggle to feign interest usually. In contrast I've never been lynched as town.

So this would be fancy playing his best scum game in day 1 and coasting by after that given his activity has drastically changed.

[Rad]

Exactly why I want rad out today.

Clarify this please

I am more certain, especially after that self vote shenanigan

This is probably scum wishing he had self voted.

I bet if I did what rad did the reaction would be different. Just to illustrate:

*rad self voted*: woah buddy calm down you are town you are just frustrated

*I selfvote out of annoyance*: gtfo you are scum trying to fake being annoyed

It is just a matter of who does it that shapes how you view it

I still feel like there is some bias going on here. If I self voted and let myself be lynched as town, juice would have said "performative". Why is he acting like it's a town tell if rad does it? I think rad unvoting should say something here. Rad never intended on actually dying as he knows juice is not set on voting him

It's like this weird envy thing where someone does something that pushes them as town and scum gets all upset that it wouldn't have worked the same for them, or when people come to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons. And now he's legit frustrated with it.

[Rad]

I unvoted because Juice asked me to and he started talking about something interesting that I had also been considering (but also quietly dismissing due to how well scum!Fancy would have to have been playing in d1).

I'd like to point out that Bulba is incapable of considering scum!Fancy and is instead tunneled on me. Could be TMI here.

[Rad]

Rad what happened to you entertaining the possibility of FP being scum?

It's been what, 45 minutes? When did I stop entertaining it? And when do you plan on starting?

[Rad]

FP and juice make sense to me as day one targets for a night kill. I buy that he was protected.

Sure, town!Fancy target makes sense, I think we can all agree on that. Who do you think does the night kill in a scum!Fancy world?

[Rad]

The only way I believe rad is town is if he is a secret vigilante that got roleblocked and mafia fell asleep and forgot to kill.

Like this isn't even a possible setup, why are you wasting people's time with that idea?

[Rad]

Fancy I highly doubt you're scum. I'm pushing Bulba on why he's not even considering you given the mech details we know. Are you not concerned with that?

[Rad]

I townread fancypants. How hard is that to understand? I am pushing you based on my read on the gamestate

town reading people is the easiest possible thing for scum to do. You have no paranoia of a scum!Fancy dominating this game even when the mech points specifically to that as a possibility.

[Rad]

Happy to vote Bulba here

VOTE: Bulba

[Rad]

Neat solve Bulba. Just 1 problem with it. I'm town. What's your solve where town!Rad gets targeted n2 cause that's what matters here. I guess you could think about that tomorrow after I flip green, or you could try it now, cause if you're town here you're getting counter tunneled to death tomorrow and we lose.

[Rad]

I still can't believe you are serious. Tell me if your claim is real so I can vote you

Ok fine day 1 I tracked FP and it gave me no result which makes sense because he was being jailkept by juice.

But day 2 I did track flowers and it did say they didnt go anywhere,
which means if Rad is scum its either not Rad/Flowers or Rad carried out the night kill action night 2.

Bulba can still be scum, but I think they would have given in if they had visited FP night 1 so if bulba is scum I think their partner visit FP night 1.

Did you breadcrumb any of these targets?

I still can't believe you are serious. Tell me if your claim is real so I can vote you

I mean it doesn't matter if you vote me or not, I am conf town, I very clearly eluded to it before anyone revealed their roles..

When was the first time you alluded to it exactly?

[Rad]

Yeah I dunno wtf that was about either. Could be fake soft claim, could be ego. I took it as ego which was more of a meta read. I could definitely be wrong there.

[Rad]

So just to be open here, I'm looking through Spartan's ISO atm to make sure I wasn't pocketed this game. I'd love for him to be able to convince me he's tracker here with some sort of early breadcrumb or allusion, so we can keep this scum pool small, but he's just not currently conf town here like he claims. He pushed Bulba just about all game relentlessly, mostly based on Bulba supposedly not answering his questions sufficiently. This always struck me as super odd but I just read it TvT cause it was so weird that it seemed like it had to be coming from town. His tracks are so far worthless, which doesn't make him scum, but is also the only thing for scum to include in a fake tracker claim besides some weird bus strat.

In some fucked up world where Spartan has successfully fake claimed and Bulba/Flower are both town, we just lose here without addressing it.

So please Spartan provide some legit info on how you're conf town and we're not in group C where you're fake claiming.

[Rad]

In group C, scum knows the setup after N1 due to the block. scum!Spartan could easily make this claim.

[Rad]

In group C, scum knows the setup after N1 due to the block. scum!Spartan could easily make this claim.

This is only true if I’m scum right? Otherwise they can’t know whether I was protected by doc or Jk.

There's no doc in group C

[Rad]

For all the shit Spartan gave Bulba for not answering questions.

So please Spartan provide some legit info on how you're conf town and we're not in group C where you're fake claiming.

[Rad]

Ok so in the scenario where JK blocks fancy from killing n1, and blocks me from dying n2... N1 Fancy targets Juice and probably thinks Juice was targeted by doc so he dares not go there again. Targets me instead n2 as a "good enough" target. Could be a wifom setup "why would I nk rad when he read me town?"

The double saves help explain why fancy's backed off this game so much from his intense day 1.

If Fancy flips red, bbt's too obvious a partner right? So fancy + flower? Or is the play to make them seem like too obvious a partner in case a scum!BBT got flipped yesterday? I mean if we flip scum!fancy here, do we look at bbt as fancy revealing TMI all game or was that the scum team's play to make him look too obvious?

Could be bbt + flower but a n2 jk save on me makes less sense there I think. I pushed AlwaysNever but backed off of flower. I've been wishy washy on bbt and I know scum!BBT knows how to take advantage of a wishy washy town!Rad. Not sure what killing me there accomplishes.

I feel most strongly about a scum!Fancy here.

[Rad]

VOTE: flower

[Rad]

Gg

[Rad]

GG everyone. GJ Bulba you had me sweating there with your exact solve lol

[Rad]

no redactions from me

[Rad]

I leaned towards Juice being doc so targeting him felt safe. We were very close to both blocking and killing Juice on n2 which would have been coincidentally the better move for the wrong reason.

[Rad]

thanks HEM!