Newbie 2099 | GTA San Andreas | Endgame

[Bulbazoor]

like I said - people should take my gambit seriously. But if I die tonight - get BBT tomorrow.
And remember FP - is 100% town, there is no way he can be mafia

This is so town I don't want to ISO juice.

[Rad]

Town
Juice
fancy

Town lean
Flower
Spartan

Null
Bulba
Bbt

Scum
Cat

[Juice]

What happened to BBT? Did he forget he was in this game? Haven't seen them in a while. But they are next on my ISO analysis.

He gets lynched tomorrow either way - you had to be a strong part of the town when I get killed tonight

[Juice]

have*

[Bulbazoor]

I dread the minute I have to ISO spartan. *shudder*

[flowerdogs]

kind of starting over & working on an ISO of Spartan (& then maybe Rad) brb

[Juice]

not sure why you two are making cases - just hammer Cat and end the end.

[flowerdogs]

not sure why you two are making cases - just hammer Cat and end the end.

if anyone wants to hammer Cat they can. (Cat's legacy is basically scumreading BBT & Bulb.) i won't hammer because i don't scumread them. i am almost certainly not NK'ed tonight though so i can just talk more tomorrow

[Spartan117]

VOTE: BBT

(@Fancy)

this vote is worthless - if im not voting him. Just saying

Then why don't you come back on them today and see the flip now rather than tomorrow?

VOTE: BBT E-2

[Bulbazoor]

Here is a tip for people reading this game: Don't use meta to read BBT. He is a very large anti-meta person so who's to say he didn't change his meta?

[flowerdogs]

i did finish a spartan iso just now. i think spartan has been scummy. i think his most likely partners are, in decreasing order, Rad & then BBT. i have my notes but they are very long & need some trimming & so i won't post them unless there's interest in discussing voting spartan today (game day) instead of someone hammering cat. i quickly read through Rad's ISO but would need to do so more thoroughly also.

here are the post numbers (& a quick summary per day) that i think point to the possibility of a spartan/rad wolf team (if there is only one wolf between the two, i think it has to be spartan.) it's tinfoil-y but i think there's something here.

day one
325, 344, 365 + 368, 457
--> Spartan very actively pairs himself with Rad. it would be brazenly obvious if both are scum (also the start of day voting-together thing) but I’m sure that's not out of either’s scum-range in a w/w situation. both seem like very good players. (if there is just one wolf between the two, it would have to Spartan trying to pocket Rad. maybe even NK Rad after a successful pocket; Rad dying as town would make a w!Spartan look very very good in this game in an ISO of Spartan.) I’m a little pinged by Spartan (& Rad’s) attempt to both agree with other players that Fancy is very town & yet essentially keep Fancy open as a strong wolf option to vote out in the late game. Spartan's 457 legacy post feels theatrical given that Fancy / Juice were probably going to be the NK targets.

day two
537 (i don't think Spartan explained why Bulb is now his town scumread, why BBT has slipped towards null), 584, 591, 612, 613, 713
--> day two i'm actually most pinged by Spartan & Rad's disinterest in my slot after i subbed in, despite me basically shading them in my early posts (I find Juice, Fancy, Bulb's interactions with my slot townier); my gut says they are TMI-ing me as town (+ baby town / won't have much control over town, so less reason to engage?) I do find Rad's interactions with my slot townier than Spartan's.) also pinged by Rad responding to me that Spartan/Bulb is t/t -- which, rereading that case, does not seem at all obvious to me; at least for me, this deflected my attention from Spartan. still a few instances where Spartan comments that the game can't be so simple that the inactive slots are the wolves (could be set-up especially if Cat flips town today).

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Spartan

going to take a long break until tmrw

[flowerdogs]

*why Bulb is now his top scumread
+ also messed up a parenthetical phrase in above post

[Bulbazoor]

BBT: Originally, I had a slight scumlean on elemk. I had a roller coaster ride with this slot. At the end, I can say he is actually a scumlean for me.

Spartan is sheeping Rad hella hard in this game as well. Spartan has also seen Rad being pocketed before and possibly thinks he is susceptible to it?

Something to keep an eye on.

Interesting. Did BBT ever try to argue with spartan or rad after this?

So let me get this straight juice.

Fancy is definitely scum. And he's scum with either elemk or bulba. So the best move is to vote one of his maybe scum partners?

I don't like this.

Fancy was scum based off of Elemk being scum, no? So it would make sense to vote for his stronger scum read first (that he has reasoning for) and then if he is correct, start pushing Fancy based on the associative?

I'm surprised this wasn't picked up and I'm also surprised that Bulba just agreed with it. Would be the second time Bulba has OMGUS'ed, I retract my town read on Bulba.

Juice is still town. Alwaysnever can probably be town, too. I liked his post regarding Fancy's reads on himself and Goldfish.

Bulba moves into null/scummy, along with Spartan and Rad.

Fancy is still scum.

Here, he questions why I agreed with rad. I agreed with rad because his logic was sound to me. If his strongest scumread was somebody, why would he vote for the people he is not as sure of? It is not rocket science. Or maybe I just misunderstood what rad meant. People forget that misunderstandings happen.

[Rad]

If his strongest scumread was somebody, why would he vote for the people he is not as sure of? It is not rocket science. Or maybe I just misunderstood what rad meant.

You understood me correctly.

[flowerdogs]

BBT: Originally, I had a slight scumlean on elemk. I had a roller coaster ride with this slot. At the end, I can say he is actually a scumlean for me.

Spartan is sheeping Rad hella hard in this game as well. Spartan has also seen Rad being pocketed before and possibly thinks he is susceptible to it?

Something to keep an eye on.

Interesting. Did BBT ever try to argue with spartan or rad after this?

So let me get this straight juice.

Fancy is definitely scum. And he's scum with either elemk or bulba. So the best move is to vote one of his maybe scum partners?

I don't like this.

Fancy was scum based off of Elemk being scum, no? So it would make sense to vote for his stronger scum read first (that he has reasoning for) and then if he is correct, start pushing Fancy based on the associative?

I'm surprised this wasn't picked up and I'm also surprised that Bulba just agreed with it. Would be the second time Bulba has OMGUS'ed, I retract my town read on Bulba.

Juice is still town. Alwaysnever can probably be town, too. I liked his post regarding Fancy's reads on himself and Goldfish.

Bulba moves into null/scummy, along with Spartan and Rad.

Fancy is still scum.

Here, he questions why I agreed with rad. I agreed with rad because his logic was sound to me. If his strongest scumread was somebody, why would he vote for the people he is not as sure of? It is not rocket science. Or maybe I just misunderstood what rad meant. People forget that misunderstandings happen.

bruhhh i didn't realize my theory on spartan & rad was basically what bbt already said. yea idk how this effects my read on bbt. also i guess spartan/bbt not paired? gn

[Bulbazoor]

Why is there only one wagon?

Did BBT even try to strongly oppose the wagon? Seems to me like he just asked this question and then let the BW on goldfish happen while giving the appearance of opposing the BW. That is the vibe this gives me.

Page 7, good posting again from Juice and Alwaysnever

168 from AN is particularly townie

Cat is possible scum bc of their attitude/tone as well, only this time it's actually founded in something bc I've played a lot with her before so I'm familiar with the playstyle as town and scum.

If this isn't explained in more detail in the coming pages, it needs explaining.

Well I did want to pressure you and at the same time I was annoyed that I was being voted as

I tend to have knee jerk reactions any time I am voted.

This feels like an excuse for any reaction that may come from being voted in the future, could be the first scum slip of the game? Hmm

Same for this, in what world is that a scum slip? It's a 'By the way, if people vote me I generally don't like it and tend to bite back.' That's completely NAI

Let me admit: I only really liked BBT this game because from time to time he defended the way I played. But, the read on alwaysnever feels odd. It sounds like a read scum would make on someone that others otherwise might have perceived as scummy just to claim credit if they ever got lynched and flipped town. And as flower posts more, the more I townread their slot.

How can I accept you are town when you're lining up elims?

Only one of BBT/Fancy can be town. I want to elim BBT! BBT was elimmed, he was

town

.

Oh shit, looks like I was wrong. Fancy must be scum then! Fancy was elimmed, he was

town

You see my problem?

This post here is actually not that bad. However, it can definitely come from scum. Maybe I am just cautious of BBT’s experience? I don’t think juice is still following this at this point. Also, why the quick assumption he is lining up elims. I wonder what he would think of this whole nominations thing that transpired.

At no point was he scum telling - but most people weren't listening to me.

Why didn't you push for an alternative?

I know you are town though - because you being scum makes no sense

Who do you think is scum atm Juice?

What do you think of it being Bulba and 1 of Cat, AlwaysNever, or BBT.

I feel like the 2 scum are in that pool of 4.

Alwaysnever is probably town

I was sure of Elemk's slot - and BBT is also looking sus. I don't see how this isn't the logical push today.

Smells like OMGUS

If we assume - that last night a killed was stopped. Mechanics wise for this site - do both mafia have to vote a kill for a kill to happen

Scum have to submit a kill. But you know this already

Why does he tr alwaysnever so hard? And he asks juice why he didn’t push for an alternative but BBT himself did not really offer much resistance to the goldfish BW. He voted juice, who was within almost everyone’s townreads.

[Bulbazoor]

I think people need to read Cat's attack on me again, look at how many false statements she makes and the poor reasoning for her scum read on me, and then come and vote Cat with me.

Spartan, my vote started on Cat just to try and gain a read. Felt like she was the player in the game that I didn't really have much of a handle on and wanted to do something about it. I didn't particularly think she was scum, for lurking or otherwise, but her attack on me and defence of Juice is really poor and now my vote is actually because I think she is scum.

In relation to your Bulba read, do you purely think he is scum because he hasn't answered a question? I notice you mentioned deflecting as well, do you think defensiveness is exclusively a scum trait?

Rad, what did you like about the reasoning exactly?

I do not think BBT and cat are paired together due to this pushing today on cat. He makes a good point about spartan’s case on me. And yes, spartan’s case stemmed from me not answering a question the way he wanted.

Hi Juice,

You appear to still be scum reading me and you should probably stop that and help me elim Cat?

How about it?

I have yet to iso cat. I will see what conclusion I come to once I finish that. However, the more posts I see, the more I think BBT and cat might not be paired. I do recall a game where BBT bussed me hard, so I guess my read on this will depend on how I read cat. If cat comes across as blatant scum, then BBT is more likely to be scum bussing imo. If cat is towny, there might not be a need for a bus for BBT!scum. Unless he sees that it boils down to him vs cat as the only good lynches for today. This game can be complicated sometimes.

[Bulbazoor]

VOTE: BBT

I just get scum vibes from him.

[Rad]

Woo Bulba with a decision.

I think this is the Unofficial VC:

Cat.Jpeg (4): BlueBloodedToffee, FancyPants, Juice, Rad (E-1)
BlueBloodedToffee (3): Cat.Jpeg, Spartan117, Bulbazoor
Spartan (1): flowerdogs

[Bulbazoor]

Reads as of now:
Town/townleans: Flower (reads as newbie town imo), Juice, FP
Null: Rad, cat(I need them to say specifically why they wanted me targeted), spartan
Scum/scumleans: BBT

[Spartan117]

VOTE: Spartan

going to take a long break until tmrw

We had what looked like a strong wagon on Cat
With a few single votes sprinkled around.
You place your vote on BBT to appease FP after he asks you to place a vote.
You putting it on BBT still requires 3 more votes for him to be eliminated so there is no real pressure of him being the day kill.
Especially with a lot of people focused on Cat and (I believe) Bulba being the highest on the nominations list started by juice.
I know bulba and BBT were your two nominations so assumed highest scum reads. Which you had made after seeing multiple other players make the same nomination.
Juice makes a comment to your vote saying that BBT won't end up getting eliminated unless he is on the wagon.
I then place my vote on BBT asking Juice to come back and place his vote on BBT which would put BBT on E-1
You then read through my ISO and make some sort of case on me
Which is fine, the fact you voted me doesn't matter in my opinion, its more you took your vote off a pressure increasing wagon when you saw it might go from e-4 before your vote to e-1 after my vote and a potential juice vote.
I woke up this morning and quickly skimmed through and saw bulbas vote on BBT thinking he was now at E-1 but alas you removed your vote from BBT.
Which I get the feeling that you had put your vote out into your respective scum pool and then taken it off after the slot received more pressure, because maybe BBT is your scum partner that you are trying to distance from?

What also pinged me that led me to this thought process is what I believe bulba has mentioned recently about BBT which I have been thinking since the first instance in day 1, that BBT very assuredly town read AlwaysNever this same slot as Flower with them being a very inactive slot leading them to sub out, I never understood why BBT was so certain of this slots alignment unless he knew something we didn't even before the first night phase which is only possible for scum partners. To the point of him defending them I believe not just once but multiple times, I'd have to go check to find it.

With BBT not around and a lot of attention on Cat and Bulba it looks like an appropriate time for Flower a slot that BBT so assuredly town reads to put their vote on them in the background while as Juice seems to feel like we can eliminate Cat today and BBT will be eliminated for sure tomorrow, I'm not as certain this will happen.

[Juice]

flower randomly voting outside of the two wagons preventing a possible lynch - smh. If I need to vote BBT today instead, then so be it. - but voting for SPartan with less than 2 days to go is just avoiding involvement. I am almost tempted for a wagon on flower today with a clear obstructive move. [oh and he is one of my three gambit candidates - so could deasily be mafia]

[Juice]

i believe we in the last 24 hours - so trying to stop a a lynch is just scummy af

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Of course the game picks up when I'm not around. Caught up and posting some thoughts;

VOTE: BBT

Would love an explanation for this vote. Did you think I was scum before I started pushing you?

Spartan's probably town here. End of D1 I felt like his emotions towards BBT were sincere.

UNVOTE:

Cat wagon can wait.

Couple of things;

Why do sincere emotions = town? Why couldn't scum!Spartan have sincere emotions about me saying he can't hammer and bringing attention to it?

I like your unvote of Cat at E-1, not in terms of alleviating pressure on a slot I want to elim, but in terms of letting the thread breathe.

Unless you're scum with Cat, of course.

FP - can you please not vote Cat. I feel we are both seen as the two most obvious town reads - so you are just giving mafia an easier time by pushing on who I would consider the third most townie person

You said Cat was your biggest town read when I asked you to vote for them?

At least ask me shit

Engage me. Don't just go off of some BS case

This kind of posting is scummy. Like, you can't independently contribute to the game without other people engaging you first. Shows a lack of genuine game-solving.

Well, I know you want me to say bbt, bulba, Spartan. And that's probably my order anyway, but bbt and bulba are more equals than ordered there. This isn't bbt's scum game from my experience with him but he's still doing questionable shit that I don't love. I read a previous game of his recently and had him as my top town read all game only to find out when the game ended he was scum. I hard defended him in my first newbie and he was scum. He's doing nothing here that I expect scum bbt to do and I think his town play is just scummy in general. I leaned on that fact in my scum game against him.

Cat, BBT, Bulba are my POE.

Your read on me here is all over the place. Feels very fence-sitty. 'This isn't BBT's scum game', 'he's doing nothing that I expect scum!BBT to do' and 'his town play is scummy' all mixed in with a sprinkling of meta bullshit. Then I appear in your PoE, wtf?

For example - I would lynch BBT or Bulba.

If people change their scum reads after Day 2 - it will also rouse suspicion

You're supposed to change reads when new information is presented. Keeping reads static/stale is a classic scum tell.

1.) i think Cat is probably town (my initial read on the slot was colored a lot by BBT's sun on Cat & i townread BBT). i think their responses to being put under increasing pressure have been good.
as for that BBT/Cat interaction today (my initial reason for scumreading Cat) -- tbh i don't know how to read it. these long disagreements of people misrepresenting each other / not responding to questions (Fancy/Juice day one, BBT/Juice day two, BBT/Cat day two, Sparta/Bulb day two)... i realize i tend to read all of them as TvT. (@BBT -- why did you read Juice as town & Cat as scum today when, to me, from the outside, your disagreements with both of them feel the same.) i also don't think w!Cat puts themself on the line to defend t!Juice so intensely; if Juice is town & so widely townread, it's surely in the best interest for wolves to make Juice seem suspicious for end of day one.

Which responses do you feel were good? In our back and forth, they consistently misrepresented me,

agreed

with some of my points after I refuted them but

still

scum read me anyway. In what world is that town? I suggest you go back and reread.

Juice gave me reason to believe he was town and that's pretty much all I'll say on it. I initially voted Cat because I had no read on them and wanted to either apply pressure or force an interaction to try and help me (despite Cat repeatedly saying I was voting them for lurking which is flat out untrue). Our back and forth pretty much confirmed them as scum for me due to reasons previously stated and even more so with their OMGUS approach to me now.

I will probably never understand why exactly I am even a target for a lynch. But whatever. I need to cool my head instead of resorting ti calling you all fucking idiots.

This feels town and I get this feeling completely. The whole PoE thing is awful, provides great cover for scum who don't have to do much work because 'PoE'.

- Post 309 the "NAI" goldfish, they have clearly played many many games together, I can see scum cat here not wating to cinriminate herself to strongly by scum reading Goldfish but keeping the lynch open by not townread her.
-

No genuine scumreads all game, she's basically coasted and only effort posted when poked, classic

No interest in actually solving the game just saving her own skin.

- I've read some of town cat's games and I think she puts more effort into game solving when that's actually her win condition.
- Also process of elimination from town reads.

+1 @bold, good posting.

Time for my gambit - was I interested in who people scum read? Yes.

Did I think everyone would tell the truth? Not at all. I also knew - that with a lot of people town reading me, I had an advantage in making this play.

Four people put forward: Bulba/BBT.

One of you is 100% sheeping me, so I town read you. Which mean either - Spartan, Cat or Flower is second mafia and partnered with BBT.

And Bulba - I haven't scum read you for a while, but you were the perfect candidate for people to vote without any real reason to back it up. The fact that Cat has a large amount of votes - means that is quite possible that he is mafia, and my town read is flawed. But I am confident that at least one of Spartan, Cat or Flower will flip mafia.

My actual town reads: FP, Rad, Bulba

That was interesting, the whole PoE thing was awful but I kind of like it a little better now. Your town read for someone sheeping you is bad reasoning but whatever. Flower is also probably town, stronger town read here now that Flowers has replaced in.

You need to talk about that Rad town read, too.

Unrelated to my response here, there has been a lot of talk about pre-flip associatives and this is an awful way to scum hunt but a great way to further conf bias whatever read you're pushing as town. Anybody doing this needs to stop and evaluate their reads independently. After flips, then you start using associatives.

Juice - is cat the compromise vote to vote with your town block? Cause I feel like you should be voting bbt here, and I'd consider doing that with you, but fp hard vetoes it and all of us have cat as top pick. Is that your thinking?

Talk about why I'm scum?

Also vote Rad WTF.

You not voting is so scummy.

You're someone whose played a decent amount of mafia.
You have two suspects, and you're not voting either,

My thoughts now are that you don't want to commit to your scum buddy Cat and are hoping that the bulba or BBT wagons will take off.

You're fence sitting to save your partner and don't want to commit either way.

Convince me otherwise please.

More good posting

i'm feeling quite lost -- does anyone want to help me out...

for the record I'm fine with voting BBT today

when i came to the point in my reads where i had Bulb & BBT in my PoE i felt like i had a good grasp on the game & now i don't at all!! i like Bulb's responses to my posts. two of my top town reads townread him (Fancy & now, post-gambit, Juice). no one else has had a similarly positive reaction to Cat's posts today (day two). my PoE right now is just BBT which makes me pretty bad &, since i don't really have any scumreads & just PoE to work with, that makes me feel pretty bad!

Can you not do this? Thanks

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Where I'm at;

Town - FP, Juice, Flowers, Bulba
Null - Spartan (don't like this)
Scum: Cat, Rad

Fancy seems to read the game very similarly to me in almost every way, highly likely to be town. Had an early town read on AN and Flowers has enhanced that, specifically by being very fluid with their reads and reevaluating things (though I kind of wish you hadn't reversed your read on me!), Juice is town for reasons I think are anti-town to go into and I quite liked their gambit play. I think that's reasonably difficult to fake as scum. Bulb is town for emotion, which is a weird one for me as I don't usually include emotion for reads, but his constant questioning of why people scum read him comes across as genuine town frustration.

Spartan is kind of a back and forth read for me and I need to look more closely at him. I don't really have a read either way on him and it makes me uncomfortable because we're nearing D3. His recent misrep of my town read on AN/Flowers is pretty bad though.

Cat is scum for reasons previously stated. She only started scum reading me after I started trying to gain a read on her and pushed her. Her reasons for scum reading me were mainly refuted and yet the scum read continued anyway. That's agenda driven, not a genuine read and she seriously lacks in the game solving department. Has she had any serious interactions outside of interacting with me (which I had to engage btw).

Rad's positioning throughout D2 has been awful. Seems reluctant to commit, especially in terms of his read on me. Fancy had some really good posts in this regard, too and I don't think town!Rad would have many problems town reading me here. I do think scum!Rad knows my game well enough to manipulate though and he seems awfully ready to jump aboard a BBT wagon.