Newbie 2128 - Manila Noir - Postgame

[Deltabreedy]

Hi folks,

I'm V/LA today, just on my train back from London (this is a regular thing) so will catchup more in the morning when I'm, you know, human.

Just wanted to stick me head in and greet.

Cheers,
Tom

[Deltabreedy]

Mans still got his workbrain on, I signed off an all lmao

[Deltabreedy]

Apologies folks, I've been up to my eyeballs. Weekend now (Currently 0200 though) so will be around and posting tomorrow.

Can someone really summarise the case on Mikhail and why that died down post-ban & replacement by Alianna? Following it along I think it seems more like they were abrasive than anything else, but the wagon must have developed for a reason, right? Cheers

Don't worry about calling me bad - I acknowledge it fully in my heart, it's almost like my destiny being a punching bag

Before I get really into this game - chin up Happy, I don't like how self-deprecating you are about this. Your views are every bit as valid as anyone elses so all you do when you claim that you're bad is diminish the legitimacy of your own views.

[Deltabreedy]

Hey folks. Horrendously overdue, my bad. I want to give a wholesome and full-bodied review of the game and my thoughts as it develops, so this will be a stream of consciousness post, chronologically through the game. It will be a wall. I'll have a synopsis at the end as a separate post incase this is a bit inpenetrable.

Page 1:

Smileydude, Maduisha, Starfire up until they agree it's 'RVS Banter' seem to completely ignore the roleclaim from the Mikhail/Alianna slot. Why?
With what we know now (assuming IAVH's claim stacks up, I've not seen a counter and I assume that the mod error at SoD was to actually name them), this is pretty odd that A) there was a roleclaim and that B) it was written off so quickly.

Was this RVS Banter or was it an attempt by one of the above to stifle discussion of it and move on, covering for a partner? Can't be Maduisha ofc but this occurred to me off the bat.

Page 2:

IAVH's #29 captures my sentiment on this.

Ender's #32 delves deeper on this in a way that I find satisfying.

If Happy wasn't already confirmed, at this point I'd be saying that #33 gives me major townvibes.

Starfire's #39 feels like an honest retraction, but I don't think it changes my ping of their early play. Honesty can come from either alignment, after all.

I like Keria's #42-43. Probably because their view and my view reading through is the same and they specifically like the same points I do.

Starfire's #45 has bad vibes. It feels like a bit of a discussion-stifling contribution in that it seems to be a vote designed to intimidate IAVH from building the game up. I'm a big proponent of people pushing the game early. There's ways and means of doing this and I think that the development of their suspicion is solid.

#49 as a continuation of this - I'm struggling to put two and two together. To get Mason is a 2/9 chance, but in order to legitimately guess that, you'd have to know which column we're in which brings that down to a 2/6 chance. It comes down to one thing really, and that's my conviction that Mikhail is lying about the sum total experience they have. Is this AI?

Well, it could be?

I mean scum would indeed want to portray a degree of authority - nothing's more powerful for scum than having a player that folks follow, and I can totally see this being a vastly exaggerated figure that is intended to connote this. Thing is, it could equally come from town.

The thing that leads me down a more scummy lean is that it indicates to me a willingness to lie to the playerbase with no real gain to come from it unless Mikhail is scum.

Page 3:

I can see how from a certain POV, #51 from Keria makes sense. Mikhail by page 3 is a pretty limmable player. They certainly would have had my vote by this point but because of how limmable they've been, that would be an ideal target for scum. It's a good point, but equally, I think there's probably a reason that the wagon hasn't developed from this point. Could their partner have seen this and potentially advocated against the lim? I think that's also a possibility and so I think because this also aligns with Starfire's suspicion of IAVH (with the benefit of hindsight that IAVH is Mason, assuming I read that right), I'm less thrilled about both Keria and Starfire here.

The absoluteness with which Starfire posts #62 - that Mikhail is town reads as odd. It's either scum turning attention from their partner, or scum turning attention away from someone they know to be town. It feels like TMI, Informed!Starfire working on the play.

'More of a bounty person myself' Pffft, preach! Not a fan again though of the certainty with which Star starts pursuing IAVH. Am I biased through the benefit of hindsight, sure, but it feels like quite a strong pushback, stronger than I would expect from town on page 3.

Page 4:

Keria's #74 and #75 feels quite... honest? But in a towny way? Appreciate this runs contrary to a point I made earlier about Star but if they were scum they could pretty easily start pushing and pushing on IAVH here. They decide not to and that kinda vibes? Poor reasoning but it's where I am there.

I think Smiley's assessment makes sense on their entry from #79-82, but to not form an opinion on IAVH or Starfire is at best a bit fence-sitty.

Ender's #86 I disagree with but doesn't ping me. If anything it gives me slightly better vibes because it asks questions and demands things of players in a way that I think is looking to move the gamestate forwards beyond an argument that is starting to feel quite circular. The reaction to it being 'E-1' (it wasn't) later on also kind of feels good.

PC's

Actual

entrance is fun and I kind of vibe, shame they're McMurdered, they make some good points and even regardless of their role it feels like they started off with a fairly strong set of questions, although I do disagree with their Maduisha read.

Page 5:

#101 says what I found difficult to word. I also feel a bit less good vibey about Keria upon reading #104, #105 and #106.

Disagree with PC's #118 but we move.

Reads as of Page 5 End (considering what we know now)

Me

PC

IAVH

Maduisha

Ender

Smiley
Keria/DkKoba

Mikhail/Alianna

Starfire

----

Page 6:

#126 feels just antagonistic, rather than actually convincing others to vote here.

#133 I don't know if I agree with this. The whole push seems to be made in bad faith.

Page 7:

Keria's belief of the claim seems to be ignorant of it being objectively bad play if it is real. I haven't read through yet but we now know that the claim is not real it feels maybe a bit blind-faithy or a bit 'I believe it because it fits with my column'-y.

#149 in hindsight super pings me, including as it does the kill, the 2nd confirmed town and the lim. #153 afterwards also pings me because there is a movement towards Ender!Scum and then it culminates in a vote on Starfire, unless I misunderstoood it. The whole explanation leads up to what ought to be a vote on Ender but it's not, it's on Star. This feels... weird and a bit forced to be honest.

Smiley's #158 and #159 feel a bit light, and to be honest they've felt pretty light on content throughout the game so far. Maybe a bit keen to sit on the sidelines, but doesn't outweigh my Mik/Star/Keria thoughts.

---

[xia] absolute pleasure to be playing with pc, we've been preoccupied and still come back to a beautiful game anyway! refreshing to see someone so proficient at depersonalising in a good way

guy who's very happy hero calling based off of 5 messages is based behaviour and obviously it's in the rules that based is towny

starfire is of course our Spirit Mason teammie, leeeet's not talk about ender, keria's kinda scummy and prolly trying to mislim my teammie rn, dude number 1 who's smiley hmmm you can be a teensy bit towny why not

not super sure why so many folks reacted this way to the unnamed one's metagame, i feel like it's pretty normal to be able to compartmentalise conversations in this game? understandable that you'd all wanna eke out whatever town credit you can if a few vacuous statements is gonna do the trick so fair~ a lil on the nose when there's already so much to work on though lmao

GUH?

---

But we know now that the Masons are PC and IAVH... just guh?

Pages 8 & 9:

I found this really difficult to read. Not in the same way as the last game I played with Mikhail, but it was just so antagonistic - I can only see Mikhail as trolling. They did through their actions effectively fish out IAVH (claiming cop) and PC off the back of it somehow so for me was it

purely

trolling or is it calculated by scum?

I kinda hate this kind of play to be honest. It's worked out for them I suppose if they're scum, but it's pretty dire play if town. I'm leaning towards Mikhail!Scum from the start, as an averse reaction to the play and with the benefit of hindsight but I don't think there's a huge amount that's useful on this page. Ender does get mad townvibes for the confrontation that they get into that feels like really quite prominent frustration with Mikhail's play.

I think that the weaponization of ones own identifier(s) with the intent to avoid explaining points or posts is pretty bad from both a moral and a game integrity perspective. It's a shame that the thread devolved in that way.

Page 10:

I vibe with Keria's #228. It echoes a sentiment I had in my last Mikhail game. In that game they were town, but anti-town and I went through a similar process. Knowing what we know now I'm more comfortable with the idea of Mikhail!Scum given that their play successfully outed our masons, but the sentiment behind what Keria says resonates with me here.

The ban was kind of welcome, tbh. I don't know the specifics, but it was pretty clear that Mikhail was an antagonist. I do feel for Alianna in their slot as a replacement.

Page 11:

Star's #252 pings me as an easy avenue away from Mikhail - moving towards someone for something that I think is actually pretty towny.

Jason replaces in with #264. Great minds although I think I've, over the course of a read, developed a much clearer sense of Starfire!Scum.

Alianna replaces in with #270

GUH? Part 2

My read on the slot hasn't changed by here.

Page 12:

Koba's entrance in #299 pings me. I disagree with the read and I think that from a skim there is more interesting thingss to vote or comment on than this.

Page 13:

Koba's #308 is a scumslip I think, unless I have missed something.

as the doc is technically not clear now

I don't like the certainty with which there is a doc. There's an implicit certainty that there is a doc, which really, really, super, duper feels like a scumslip. With the information available by this point: (IAVH: Claimed Cop), there is only 2 possible setups: A1 and C1. The certainty that there infact IS a doc I think suggests that Koba is the Roleblocker.

In #319 They really go to bat against Star!Scum which I disagree with. This feels like again TMI. Then the argument with my slot's former occupant through...

Page 13:

... really reads poorly for them. Like oh god, really poorly.

How on earth from this did we land on a Maduisha lim?!?

Page 14:

... Like REAL poorly.

I don't think there's anything really of value here that doesn't just further my read on Koba.

Pages 15&16:

When I played in mafia championships last year

Koba's #397 feels very nothing-defensey. Again, it doesn't seem to have any relevance to the reality of the game? I find it weird because I'm having to also recognise that it's against my slot but honestly I feel like I'd be jumping in on this because Koba's entrance is just so... scummy. Like even their #399 interaction with PC seems deliberately designed to be as obstructive to questioning as possible rather than replacing into the game and looking to scumhunt and be open. From a mindset perspective this feels scum-inclined, the TMI slip earlier and everything just has me convinced. I'm kind of shocked they weren't the lim yesterday tbh.

Paged 17-19:

I'm getting a bit bored of Koba and their posts by now - I think people may have missed earlier the scumslip but I was sold on Koba!Scum a few pages back. I've not seen anything that changes any of my reads by this point of the game.

VOTE: DkKoba

I'll read through from 20 to now over the course of tomorrow and do something a bit more... easy. This has taken a wee bit longer than I thought it would. I still up until the start of page 20 have no idea how we landed on a Maduisha lim.

Ninja'd by bloody loads of you, neat.

GN

[Deltabreedy]

Synopsis:

There's a lot but here's the most salient point:

unfortunately iamveryhappy is our only clear here for now, as the doc is technically not clear now, *but* nightplay will reveal more

This is a scumslip because at this point the only claimed role was Cop.
The assumption from Koba was that there was a Doc, which would put us in setup A1.
There is a cop in setup C1.
The only reason Koba would assume with certainty that there is a Doc, is if they were Mafia with knowledge of them and their partner's role which would give an indication of the column that we're all in.

Setup information

This game uses the NewD3 setup, designed by RadiantCowbells.

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates one mafia role from the top of a column, and then two town roles from a row below the selected mafia role.
The remaining six roles will be filled in by

one mafia goon

and

five vanilla townies

appropriately, to create a

2-mafia

and

7-town

setup.

Editted the formatting of the above to indicate information pertinent to the setup - Unbolded everything, then bolded the setup they thought we were in (A1), the one that was also a possibility with the information available to town at the time (C1), and the one we apparently are in (A3).

That we are infact in A3 or C3 (A3 seems likely given what IAVH said earlier) doesn't change that this is a big slip from Scum!Koba, as at the time they wouldn't know that the cop claim was infact a Mason.

[Deltabreedy]

I've not caught up a huge amount on your involvement so far to be honest. I'll be off now but if you could explain that it'd be super.

Can you manage my expectations on that, is 'in a bit' in the next day?

[Deltabreedy]

so not much use in arguing against delta here so we better get it right today or kill between delta and I or else we lose if delta is town lol

i have heard not so great things from friends about delta's play so im kinda resigned to that we are on the back foot but its kinda the same as if wazza was in that slot so hey

Oh honestly fuck that. UP tried to manipulate people against my playstyle last game and it ruined the game for more people than just me. Can you not?

[Deltabreedy]

I couldn't give a toss about you or your friends pre-ordained thoughts about how I play when I am lied about, typecast, emotionally manipulated and drawn into horrendously toxic arguments. Invoking the same thing when I was quite publicly dismayed at how my last game played out is disgusting.

[Deltabreedy]

No, they don't. I actually can't believe you're doing the exact same thing that UsesPython did last game

[Deltabreedy]

You should retract that statement about your friends' commentary on my playstyle.

[Deltabreedy]

It's nice to know there's a purpose to you being provocative.

I'm actually furious at this, that game was fucking HORRIBLE and I was hoping to move on with this one.

[Deltabreedy]

Apart from the bit where I replaced into the game, wanting to catch up in full and spent ages reading every painful post on the way to where I ended, just over halfway.

And you're cherrypicking things to support what you're saying. I did the exact thing I've done here in [URL='ttps://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=91156']This Game[/URL] where I replaced into a town slot there too and ran through from the start, more recent too, but doesn't fit your narrative now does it?

---

Also, if you're coming to this 'conclusion' solely on meta, why are you invoking references to last game? You said it's to get a sense of my alignment, but that's clearly not the case - so you've done it solely to get under my skin and probably render me as ineffective as I was halfway through D2 last game.

I guess it's not against the rules, but I withhold the right to call you a colossal bellend for doing it when it's pretty plain to see from a cursory view at mid or postgame how much it bothered me.

[Deltabreedy]

EBWOP: This Game

[Deltabreedy]

Apparently getting angry when:

i am intentionally trying to rile you up

Equates to 'flailing'. Particularly when you brought up last game.

I'm actually raging at this, honestly. I just tapped out a full page on why this is horrible and that and had to delete it. Is this actually enjoyable to you?

I literally said in the post game of last game 'This game made me want to leave the site's because of what that player said, and so to get a leg up on me for voting you, youve done the exact same thing and you're dressing it up as a reaction test.

Like fucking right I'm angry over it

[Deltabreedy]

Whatever, see yous tomorrow.

Hopefully Koba has retracted by then but hey, asking for a retraction didn't work last game why would it here

[Deltabreedy]

From what I can see Koba's only motivation for voting me boils down to:

- I'm voting for them
- Faulty meta reads

Alianna, how you're townreading Koba despite a fraudulent claim (which frankly, I place no stock in) and no desire to solve (hence the faulty meta reads to force a mislim) is beyond me.

[Deltabreedy]

Koba seems to enjoy playing games other than this one, but can't actually list anything I've done this game (or indeed that Jason did this game) that's actually a reason to lim? They defaulted to meta from EIGHT YEARS AGO for Jason, and they started with a conclusion that I'm scum and have worked backwards to try and paint my meta game as a reason for painting me as scum.

I've decided that I'm not going to engage directly with Koba this game because they've made clear that they want to make it an unpleasant environment for me, between them and their 'friends' out of game (Gee, I hope you didn't discuss my involvement in the game outside of this thread!). If someone wants to be toxic, I shan't be rising to it again, I shan't be engaging with them. It's their business.

A few things to think about:
- Why is Koba seeking to manipulate and to bully rather than solve?
- Why does Koba rely on faulty meta reads and very obtuse lies about my character in order to assert that I'm scum?
- Why are they -ok- with you being suddenly nice to them, Alianna when really that'd frequently be seen as rather odd?

@Smiley I want you to look at this as well. You're reasonably blindly sheeping Koba's vote and your reasoning whilst better is flimsy as hell.

---

Koba's playing a lazy game that relies on lies, deceit and manipulation. None of these are town markers, or even particularly pleasant. I won't accept any other lim today.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm not your mate.

[Deltabreedy]

To be crystal on this, I think you're a dick, Koba. Just so that we know where each other stands, after your behaviour this game I categorically do not like you. You've deliberately sought solely to antagonise as well as lie about my person and I think your sole aim since I joined the game has been to try and make me replace back out due to some pre-conceived slight despite never having spoken before.

So no, not your friend and you can't overturn my point, so you're now just trying to antagonise and lie more. 'Oh I'm just like this' doesn't excuse your behaviour, and that's the last thing I'll say on this before you blow this up into a big thing.

---

There's no truth to anything Koba is saying, be that about my meta, or even the reason that they voted me. They thought Alianna was scum but then have dropped off of that and through complete fabrication have sought to push this on me instead. It's frustrating because Alianna's gone and sheeped them and so has Smiley.

The question now with this is who is the partner? Is it Alianna whose slot I still struggle to reconcile the previous occupants actions, is it Star who I previously suspected or is it Smiley who's piled onto the wagon with scant justification?

I won't accept a lim on anyone other than Koba today. They need to go. Beyond that and into tomorrow, my lim pool as of right now would look like Star/Alianna I think, with a side eye cast at Smiley and Ender in my peripheral but not really there.

[Deltabreedy]

I need people to explain their townreads on Koba, now.

If I'm missing something that's pretty key, tell me. I think the reasoning behind the Doc claim is a crock to be honest, so I shan't really be accepting that as a sole justification.

[Deltabreedy]

i have heard not so great things from friends about delta's play so im kinda resigned to that we are on the back foot

This post, IAVH - where Koba intimated that people in the community external to this game have suggested that I'm not nice to play with or whatever.

After this, they sought to deliberately antagonise (which they admitted to in #902) and from there knew exactly what to say to get under my skin - I.E referring to my last game in the Newbie queue in which I defended myself against a mafia member that intimated that a vast amount of MS doesn't like me - something which was pretty horribly emotionally manipulative.

I'm very open and have said several times that I play off a lot of emotion - all Koba has really looked to do is make my angry so that I can't form a coherent argument against them, because they're scum, I'm town and forcing a mislim today benefits them greatly.

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah they're going to lie to you as well now IAVH, get ready for it.

[Deltabreedy]

Who do you mean by Koba's friend

he thinks there are scary conspiracies against him in a game they chose to replace into

You admitted to talking about me with friends of yours, and used that as a basis for attacking my character when again, there is zero truth to it.

Nothing that you've said about me, intimated about my character, or inferred about my meta is actually true and yet you cling to this argument because it's all you have. Who are you going to turn on tomorrow?

[Deltabreedy]

You also deliberately sought to get under my skin, but then scumread me not because of the reaction, but because of faulty meta. Your intention to rile me up then wasn't part of some scumhunting agenda, it was just a ploy to render me ineffective as a replacement in, with fresh eyes and the ability to read the thread unburdened by 2 weeks or so of gameplay.

[Deltabreedy]

None of this is AtE, Happy. This is just a truthful representation of what happened, because I've no ulterior motives unlike Koba.

I see no evidence of scumhunting whatsoever, just an arbitary decision on my scumhood which they've had to scramble and stretch in order to justify.
I see no reason to believe their claim of Doc was designed to draw away a kill. At best, it was an attempt to draw a CC and guide the shots.
They've worked to render me ineffective as a player by making me angry. They succeeded for a while - but why would Town!Koba need to do that? They tried to assert that it was part of their scumhunting, but then their sole justification on me was through meta, and now the justification is 'everyone else is town'. So the antagonistic behaviour was solely a screen to prevent me from holding any legitimacy or coherency in my arguments.

Ninja'd:
Not really - how you feel about me and your alignment don't interact in that way, but would give a good cover for you to push on me in the way that you are. Again, you've not yet brought up one reason from -this- game to vote me. You're yet to decide who you think a partner is because you're playing in a very short-sighted manner, designed solely to push -today's- mislim. Your play is, to me, objectively scummy, and then there is also the context and the reason that you happened upon this character read and how you're using it that suggest scumhood. If you were town, you wouldn't use it as justification and take it as truth - I imagine (and this is just how I would approach it), you'd find out for yourself and actually engage rather than skip straight to antagonising me fruitlessly.

[Deltabreedy]

I honestly don't have much to say about the Delta wall, I don't usually get much out of catchup posts, but I do just want to get clarification on one thing because I don't understand it...at all.

#149 in hindsight super pings me, including as it does the kill, the 2nd confirmed town and the lim

You're saying it's scummy because their townreads are the kill, the lim, and the conftown? I tried to figure out what connection you could be making that I'm not seeing, but I don't see it. Keria was gone a while before any of them died, so idk how the kills have anything to do with it. To me, this looks like you're saying it pings you because Keria was townreading town, so I would appreciate some clarification on that.

Yeah, I think that it's really odd that Keria townreads these people and that they all are affected in some way. At the time it was more vibes and it felt odd, but since their replacement has acted the way that they have, I can't help but to wonder if this was a Keria that was openly townhunting - a technique I know a lot of folks use to narrow down lim pools and can quite easily act as cover for scum trying to locate PRs.

Alianna replaces in with #270

GUH? Part 2

When I said that, I hadn't actually learned about the cop claim yet and just saw my own slot claiming mason for some reason.

[/quote]

Fair point - 'Guh?' rescinded.

[Deltabreedy]

ok ya delta is way out of townrange based on how they approached this replacement lmao

creating just 1 post of big content and then fucking off without more solving is scum delta flavor - town delta does a continuous stream, and i expect this catchup was to make sure it was a curated way of entering the game rather than risking mistakes.

Also to tack onto this:

I finished that big content post at 0100 or something stupid in the morning. The whole post was one big long continuous stream that I composed because I had left it a fair while and wanted to catch up in full, so that folks could read my unfiltered thoughts all in one go - so this is a moot point. I could have clogged the thread up with 2 pages of posts, but felt that'd be less effective and more fatiguing.

[Deltabreedy]

My frustration is that scum has come at me this game with antagonistic tactics in the same way that scum came at me last game with antagonistic tactics. Last game it made me useless for like 4 days, this game I'm just not prepared to have someone ruin my game again with the exact same (and arguably worse) tactic.

And if other people have some 'evidence' of Koba's townhood - they say you've seen it so do share.

[Deltabreedy]

There would be precisely zero motivation for Town!Koba to act this way - zero, nada, zilch, nil - None. All it's done is create noise and unproductive conversation, which they then attempted to nail to me. The only person that benefits from this conversation is Koba, because it allows them to hide behind the noise, avoid further critique of their claim and push a mislim which has been manufactured with no real relevance to the game we're playing - and no actual basis in truth or fact.

They say that they've solved everyone else - why is Koba unconcerned about my hypothetical partner? Why are they so intent on solely -my- lim as though that wins the game? It has to be, in my mind, because they're scum that is simply looking to move closer to Lim-or-Lose with a quick, easy lim.

Sure - I could have handled their shit better, but reacting with anger to lies and attacks on my character doesn't make me scum - and at present that's the only think they really could actually hold against me.

[Deltabreedy]

Delta, I wasn't talking about your appeal to emotion then

Could you quote what you were referring to?

I've been reasonably emotional this game so I just assumed

[Deltabreedy]

ok ya delta is way out of townrange based on how they approached this replacement lmao

creating just 1 post of big content and then fucking off without more solving is scum delta flavor - town delta does a continuous stream, and i expect this catchup was to make sure it was a curated way of entering the game rather than risking mistakes.

Also to tack onto this:

I finished that big content post at 0100 or something stupid in the morning. The whole post was one big long continuous stream that I composed because I had left it a fair while and wanted to catch up in full, so that folks could read my unfiltered thoughts all in one go - so this is a moot point. I could have clogged the thread up with 2 pages of posts, but felt that'd be less effective and more fatiguing.

yeah u still fucked off and did nothing mate, mb prove my accusation wrong first before you come at me for making it LMAO

I fucked off - to BED you soft shite

[Deltabreedy]

Where are you getting 4 days from? Big Content Post was in the early hours of yesterday morning and I happen to work full-time. I spent most of yesterday working and also responding to your puerile shite, and I'm here today so you're just sat here lying again.

It's utterly shameless, honestly.

[Deltabreedy]

Is there anything you can say about me or my play this game that isn't just a straight-up lie?

[Deltabreedy]

No, no - you lied. Not 'lmao my b' - you lied. Again.

Just lim this already jesus christ

[Deltabreedy]

my main reason for finding u mafia is finding everyone else townier than you and your answer despite the fact I'm the most findable slot in the game is that I have to be mafia so lol

So who tomorrow then? Why aren't you looking for a partner, if you're so convinced that I'm a done deal?

Your entire approach to this screams opportunity, not solving.

Why did you look to antagonise me - genuinely? Because we both know that it wasn't part of trying to scumhunt, since you 'Find everyone else townier'.

If you've backed yourself into a wall on this and you doubled down with memes this is a good chance for you to apologise and clean up the gamestate so we can have a conversation.

[Deltabreedy]

Listen we need more folks weighing in on this else it's just going to be Koba and I locking horns. Ender is almost due a prod and we need them - we need Smiley and Alianna to do more than just sheep Koba and we need Happy to really weigh in more with their thoughts and also (I might have missed it) PC's thoughts too.

Ninjad:
The fact is that you said it had been 4 days of inactivity between my catchup and anything further. You said it in a way that attempted to make it another reason to lim me. It was categorically incorrect and just like your meta reads, just like your single-mindedness in my lim - it's designed solely to further your agenda which I wholeheartedly believe is to push us towards Lim or Lose.

Everything I accuse you of, you're just lazily turning back at me and hoping it sticks. You've thrown meta reads at me, it hasn't stuck. You've thrown antagonism at me, it hasn't stuck - the thing you're trying to pin on me now is that I'm simply the least towny, in your opinion. That's cool and valid, but you're then also not answering who you think my hypothetical partner is despite having been asked a few times now.

[Deltabreedy]

And you can sod off with trying to accuse me of having a victim mentality - the fact that your 'arguments' (pfft) are interlaced with ad hominem after ad hominem just shows that again, you have absolutely nothing, and you're going to do anything to force this through.

[Deltabreedy]

Why is alianna not in that list? Pretty notable exception given that they were your vote before me.

[Deltabreedy]

One more call for:

Alianna
Ender
Smiley
Starfire

To justify whenever they're next online why they TR Koba.

[Deltabreedy]

Just because you say 'I've been solving pretty obviously' doesn't mean you actually have. On the super-super slim chance I'm wrong on this - can you quote where you did solving on Alianna and on myself, as a starter?

[Deltabreedy]

Because I've read through and I dont think it exists, but I'm also like lock-confirmed that you're scum so I might be confbiasing it. Show me where I'm wrong, rather than just bemoaning it and giving up.

[Deltabreedy]

One more call for:

Alianna
Ender
Smiley
Starfire

To justify whenever they're next online why they TR Koba.

My reasoning for townreading Koba can be found in my 848, In summary I feel like both DK and their predecessor Keria have consistently acted to solve for alignments. I find Keria's ISO in general to be really solid IMO. DK's evolving read on the Ender slot day 1, and the Starfire slot day 2 show a general willingness to adapt their reads based on fresh interaction that I feel is genuine and makes logical sense given their thought process. I also generally think the PC flip indicates that scum are trying to push the slot as a scapegoat as mentioned in my 834

So you don't think Koba would play the WIFOM game? In spite of a patently false claim, a personal attack on me and arguments that make no sense?

Listen we need more folks weighing in on this else it's just going to be Koba and I locking horns. Ender is almost due a prod and we need them - we need Smiley and Alianna to do more than just sheep Koba and we need Happy to really weigh in more with their thoughts and also (I might have missed it) PC's thoughts too.
-SNIP-

This comes off to me as dismissive btw, my vote on you is not me sheeping Koba, I made it clear in my 834 that if it were up to me i'd want to lim Starfire, but given the approaching deadline and the lack of traction there I shifted onto you for three reasons

1. I feel that your slot is one of the slots that benefits the most from PC's flip and as I already mentioned I think there's at least one scum who's trying to use this flip as ammo to try to push out low hanging townies

2. I feel that there was likely at least one scum involved in the Jason/PC/DK debacle from yesterday and my 654 still stands with the caveat that I know PC is town now.

3. The alternative option was to let one of my top townreads get wagoned while pushing a case that wasn't gaining any traction. Today seems to be narrowing down to you and DK and I find DK to be townier than you. Simple as that.

I do find it interesting how you only now tried to ask this after I established a tenative towncore in my 953, as if you were trying to cause me to doubt my reads. Makes me think I may have been on to something there

You say you aren't sheeping Koba, but your 'reasoning' for voting me is literally the same as theirs. I don't really see how my slot benefits from PC's flip at all to be honest and if anything, Koba has leapt on a replacing-in player (IE: Low hanging townie), lied, manipulated, falsified and chucked a few ad hominems around, and hoped to call it a case on me. It's the equivalent of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it's cooked - but Koba's grabbed a fistful of the stuff, and they applied paste to the wall first. I'd go so far as to say that their 'case' is

Half-Baked

aha-

They decided early on, likely the moment it was announced that I'd be joining in Jason's place, that they were going to do anything they could to discredit me but you're just sheeping. And it is sheeping, for context because you're not adding a single thing that's new or original to their 'case'. The fact that you are unable to should speak volumes.

And yeah, I'm asking people to justify their reads on Koba because Koba's so insistent that they've been the sole true paragon of towniness and solving the game and I completely call bull on that, because the argument that's been slapped together on me is disintegrating and wafting away like a fart in the wind, yet they persist. They say they're solving, they aren't even concerned about who would be my partner if I were to flip scum.

---

Koba

Needs

me to be scum, so they're putting it all on the line that I'm scum and hoping people back them. No doubt - they're talented and they back themselves to talk out of a hole tomorrow should they be successful and you know I don't doubt that they could which is the worst thing about all of this.

This vote puts us in Lim or Lose - and with Koba on the board, well you've seen how hard they worked to manipulate me - what will they do D3 to secure the win?

[Deltabreedy]

So you scumread Ender, Koba, but you find them townier than me, despite your only justifications for me being scum are:

A- A faulty meta read
B- I voted for you
C- You need to pick someone

Make it make sense.

I've asked and pointed out numerous times that you're yet to name a partner, because despite all your empty rhetoric about solving - you're actually desperate just to force through 1 lim and you're now so far down the rabbit hole that all you can do is try to weather the storm. Is this why you're appealing to your 2nd top scumread?

[Deltabreedy]

Saying 'I've done lots of solving' doesn't mean that you have done lots of solving.

[Deltabreedy]

This isn't a gotcha unless you take it as such. I've asked you several times to solve for a partner and you haven't, so you're either refusing for some daft reason, or you're unable to. Which is it?

[Deltabreedy]

And in good faith? If anything it was a simple appeal to Ender from you, nothing to be in good faith about. You're scum, looking to curry points with one last person to push a lim over the line.

[Deltabreedy]

My god finally you have a solve - I'm proud of you. Shame it only came after you were forced into it by me badgering you for it and Ender spelling it out for you.

I've never claimed to have a complete solve for the game, but tomorrow I'd be looking at Star/Smiley/Alianna with a preference for Alianna (although I think that's partially due to activity bias, not having directly spoken to Star yet, I dont think).

[Deltabreedy]

So what, it's a random vibe and gutread that solidifies a Me/Ender team.

After 41 pages (I think I've probably read more of the game than you tbh), the best you can do is vibes?

[Deltabreedy]

Synopsis:

There's a lot but here's the most salient point:

unfortunately iamveryhappy is our only clear here for now, as the doc is technically not clear now, *but* nightplay will reveal more

This is a scumslip because at this point the only claimed role was Cop.
The assumption from Koba was that there was a Doc, which would put us in setup A1.
There is a cop in setup C1.
The only reason Koba would assume with certainty that there is a Doc, is if they were Mafia with knowledge of them and their partner's role which would give an indication of the column that we're all in.

Setup information

This game uses the NewD3 setup, designed by RadiantCowbells.

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

Each Newbie Game will be given a setup that incorporates one mafia role from the top of a column, and then two town roles from a row below the selected mafia role.
The remaining six roles will be filled in by

one mafia goon

and

five vanilla townies

appropriately, to create a

2-mafia

and

7-town

setup.

Editted the formatting of the above to indicate information pertinent to the setup - Unbolded everything, then bolded the setup they thought we were in (A1), the one that was also a possibility with the information available to town at the time (C1), and the one we apparently are in (A3).

That we are infact in A3 or C3 (A3 seems likely given what IAVH said earlier) doesn't change that this is a big slip from Scum!Koba, as at the time they wouldn't know that the cop claim was infact a Mason.

Here's one of many reasons as to why Koba is scum.

Since then, they have also:

- Admitted to attempting to rile me up to 'scumread me', but then used meta instead to derive a scumread from. The antagonisation was designed to render me angry and ineffective a la Newbie 2127.
- Invented meta from nowhere - citing meta that actually supports Town!Me and choosing to interpret it as scummy instead.
- When called out on this, doubles down on the antagonism whilst flailing for another reason to lim me.
- Has intimated for several pages that they're obviously town because of all their solving, but now confesses that their reads both on Ender and I are gutreads. (What happened to that meta?)
- and much more.

Goodnight!

[Deltabreedy]

(also pagetop)

[Deltabreedy]

As an addendum - Koba said that their Doc claim was designed to 'Draw the Kill', but my reckoning is that they were making an attempt to draw out a CC and control the PR's overnight with a kill and a RB. The fact that we were Masons made this moot, and the idea that Koba was -certain- that there would be a Doc indicates knowledge of the setup.

[Deltabreedy]

if i'm not mistaken, both koba and delta are at E-1, with me as the only person not voting yet. no pressure, eh?

so, i've iso'd jason/delta and koba (as well as several other people) I'm still feeling like Koba is the more townie slot between the two of them

the "scum slip" delta pointed out doesn't really feel like a scum slip to me. i can see where he's coming from, but with a claimed cop, a doctor was in one of the two setups we could have been in. and i think it's reasonable to make statements that consider the existence of a doctor exist (as long as they don't attempt to fish/out the doc) for the purposes of theorizing.

i'm going to withhold my vote for now to allow discussion to continue and to give myself some time to ruminate on it in my sleep and come back with a fresh mind when i wake up. as of now i intend to hammer delta prior to deadline, barring any new information or realizations.

Walk me through, in good detail, how you can find Koba scum. The false claim (which was made with the certainty of the existence of a doc, so panicked were the team) can even be completely ignored, and the rest of my case on them commands weight on them.

Ender, ask yourself:

Why is Koba making a personal appeal to you? Why are they also pocketing Smiley?

For me, it's about survival - they -need- to live to fulfil their wincon. None of the things they have accused me of have been factual.

None of them. I do ask you to consider why Koba, if they were truly town and truly solving, would need to misrepresent me, antagonise me, lie about me and otherwise engage me in bad faith? They've also lied about solving the game, only committing to a solve after ceaseless badgering and then you indicating that the only person it makes sense for them to suspect is you. They latched onto that real quick.

The Doc claim, when you add it - fully indicates setup knowledge because of the certainty with which they said it.

There's a whole case built up against Koba which stands on its own two feet. Koba's reasons for voting me, once again extend to vibes, I'm voting them, and they super duper need a lim on me to go through.

I'm about in the AM today so can be around for headline. Make the right choice.

[Deltabreedy]

Lmao - how you can't* EBWOP phoneposting

[Deltabreedy]

@Smiley: Man, those tags, huh

Listen Smiley - do what you need to do. Koba's keeping you alive tonight anyway because they're buttering you up for Lim-or-Lose tomorrow.

I've not misrepped anything though. Most of your reasons were statements, not actual reasons and then voting me because you've cleared other 'townies' is bunk. Let me take a wild guess... Ender's my partner, right?

Players being super complimentary in Mafia is something to keep an eye out for. It can sometimes be pretty innocuous, but what Koba is doing is trying to give you the feel-goods and make you like them more. What they said about you and your ability is pure blowing smoke up your arse so that you sing to their hymn sheet tomorrow.

Where's Koba's actual case? Where is it? It doesn't exist!

I've listed, numerous times, why Koba is scum. I don't know what more I can do. I've taken the facts of what's at hand, presented them before you as clear as day. At a certain point it's on you to decide to read my points rather than blindly going 'oh you're misrepping'. I can lead a camel to water but I can't force it to drink - that bit comes from you.

Koba started the day with the base premise that I'm scum, and has tried to justify that by working backwards from the conclusion. That's not a solve, it's a decision. They came at me for a meta read, it hasn't stuck. They came at me with antagonism, it stuck for like 16 hours. They came at me with activity which was a barefaced lie. At a certain point you have to ask yourself why your townread here is having to lie to justify their scumreads, rather than developing them naturally

[Deltabreedy]

If pointing out fact after fact after fact is flailing, then I'm the King of England.

[Deltabreedy]

We asked you for PC's thoughts earlier before they were mcyeeted. Can you paraphrase Jason's thoughts before their demise?

[Deltabreedy]

Bloody hell I'm tired

Can you paraphrase OC's thoughts

[Deltabreedy]

Political Clout

The ol' copy & paste is infallible.

[Deltabreedy]

How active was your mason chat?

[Deltabreedy]

Can you go through why you voted Koba not me, for folks' benefit? An argument from you on Koba may mean more because of how close I am to this. Cheers

[Deltabreedy]

IAVH is already voting you - I think they still have a duty to justify their vote and make clear their reads.

And Koba chill, maybe if you make a case for Happy to follow they'd be more inclined to vote with you over for you.

Ninja'd:

How many times do I have to tell you Smiley - that's such a small fraction of my case on Koba. Why are you defending them so much?

And just because you're above it, doesn't mean Koba isn't trying - I, on the other hand think you're more blithely ignoring my arguments now to focus in on one thing, where the single point you have is 'Eh, I don't believe you'.

Like, is that it? Is that all you have?

[Deltabreedy]

and read shit without a fucking bias towards either conclusion ????

Oh, yeah - that hit the spot

[Deltabreedy]

If all you can counter with is 'I can't believe you find me scummy' - do you expect to allay people's fears about you with that? You've not really showed your work with me because I've said several times that every point you made against me, I've rebutted because it was either a lie or a misrepresentation of the facts. You've now just resorted to defending yourself in the hopes that Ender comes through for you.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm at Lim-1 with precisely zero case to answer lmao

[Deltabreedy]

Weird the way when you just say things that are true, people believe you. Madness

[Deltabreedy]

Why do I never get rewarded for effort when I'm scum LMAO

Nice slip

@Ender have a looky-loo here, they've straight-up admitted it now

[Deltabreedy]

Why do I never get rewarded for effort when I'm scum LMAO

Nice slip

@Ender have a looky-loo here, they've straight-up admitted it now

see iavh all this dude does is try to force gotchas

like do you like never notice on PS that mafia like to do this when they can't make a good fake case ??? This is like universal average scumplayer play

This isn't a gotcha unless you make it one. They're your words, not mine. Take some responsibility for what you're saying rather than flailing desperately to squirm out of the Rock-Solid case that's been built on you.

[Deltabreedy]

And once again, Koba tries to use meta to justify what they're saying. This time from a different site that they presumably share with IAVH in order to curry favour with them.

There is quite literally nothing now that Koba won't say to try and influence and manipulate someone off of their wagon.

[Deltabreedy]

can we stop using NKA in a game with an announcced mod error right after a night phase with masons confirmed in setup

Mod basically hard confirmed PC isn't the kill

wat

Ok iavh... tell me. . What POSSIBLE mistake did the game mod make

1)it was announced shortly after daystart
2)there are no town roles with feedback
3) the kill was weird for the gamestate


Idunno mate pretty obviously the mistake was the kill

I know the mistake. I'll tell you postgame.

Why do we have to wait for postgame, out of interest?

If PC's a Mason, and you're a Mason - what could the mistake be? Did the daystart kill announcement specifically name you as the partner or something? I'm like guessing thats what it was

[Deltabreedy]

ok well delta is tying himself to you if you're town intentionally so if you vote me today u basically lost town the game so no pressure

If I'm scum there is no reality I survive 5 way and my content is enough to solve from.there if you think I am mafia

If delta is mafia, you know you're town and you'll be screwed in 3 way.


Consider the gamestate

'Consider the gamestate' - you're deliberately making a play to survive - you've got NOTHING on me, all you want to do is survive! For all your empty rhetoric about 'oh I['ve done all the solving', you've got NOTHING and your sole aim right now is survival.

[Deltabreedy]

And yeah @Ender - I'm appealing to you, not to survive but to consider to sum body of the argument and very literally evidence against Koba against the sum nothingness that there is on me. Koba is appealing to you on a more personal and emotional level, despite somehow also tying you to me as my partner?

I think there's a difference, but I accept that yeah - I'm appealing to you too, so it's maybe unfair to levy such an undefined critique at Koba there.

[Deltabreedy]

ok well delta is tying himself to you if you're town intentionally so if you vote me today u basically lost town the game so no pressure

If I'm scum there is no reality I survive 5 way and my content is enough to solve from.there if you think I am mafia

If delta is mafia, you know you're town and you'll be screwed in 3 way.


Consider the gamestate

'Consider the gamestate' - you're deliberately making a play to survive - you've got NOTHING on me, all you want to do is survive! For all your empty rhetoric about 'oh I['ve done all the solving', you've got NOTHING and your sole aim right now is survival.

says the person who's focus is 100% me and killing me bc they're at e-1

I have reasons to vote for you which I made clear when I voted for you and consistently since. You've yet to actually put anything together to justify your vote. Faulty meta? Antagonising? Simple default 'there's no-one better'?

It's weak. You know it, I know it, the ones on your wagon know it - you have nothing.

[Deltabreedy]

Well that's a pivot. I point out for the umpteenth time that you have nothing and all of a sudden you just have it by decree that I'm scum and are now pivotting away from Ender (probably to curry favour).

I mean it's bold, it might work for you?

[Deltabreedy]

Town!Koba wouldn't abandon their scumread JUST TO SURVIVE, god this makes me want to scream

[Deltabreedy]

But you're still abandoning your read on Ender, am I right?

[Deltabreedy]

I asked you a question. Are you abandoning your read on ender?

[Deltabreedy]

You're like nailed-on scum. It's patently obvious that in the 15 minutes between your #1090 and your #1093 you panicked and are treating this presumption about the mod error (still unconfirmed what it was, last I checked) as something to be able to pivot off of Ender.

It's a vain attempt to stay alive, rather than a genuine attempt at solving - because if it was genuine it would have come so, so much earlier rather than spending hours going back and forth with Ender and I.

[Deltabreedy]

delta is changing a read with new evidence scummy? Yes/no

It's never as black and white as that and to try and paint it as such is damnable.

In normal circumstances, yeah it's fine.

When you've seen the evidence and only changed your read once the one you had no longer suited your purposes, it's a little more subjective. In this case, absolutely yes.

And to think I was accused of flailing earlier.

[Deltabreedy]

delta I want to compliment u on being able to be able to generate so much bs as scum to the point of making me look like i have basically nothing against you compared to you and drowning me in constant accusations. It's a good strategy, I can't lie, and it works. It doesn't work on me but I can't hate on the hustle. Still think you spewed too much in a position, that you've betrayed you know is doomed for you, but hey, newbie game for a reason ;p

If you get me killed you've fully earned it, granted I'll still fight it but i recognize I'm not good against this kind of spam of "everything you say is scummy".

To others: smiley and I already said it but delta is just consistently misrepresenting me regardless what I do to do what I described above. I'm confident the game is super solvable even if I die but there's still that "I can't trust no one after i die" feel because if delta dies then at least one of me or smiley is guaranteed in 3 way and that's a situation I prefer

I dread an aliana/starfire/ender 3 way

This is a last-ditch attempt to delegitimise what I'm saying by intimating that I'm newb!scum. One last roll of the dice I suppose.

Apparently pointing out that you haven't got anything against me doesn't make it clear. If you do have anything to pin to me - one single thing that is -factual and truthful-. Say it! For goodness sake, you've harped on for far too long about how you 'solved the game'. Where's the case? Where is it?

Once again, with gusto:

- Faulty Meta
- Fake Claim
- No case against their biggest scumread
- Personal AtE's for those on their wagon
- Flailing
- Antagonising someone, with the aim of rendering them ineffective.
- Cosying up to folks to carry favour
- Changing their 2nd scumread to someone that doesn't have the deciding vote

Have I missed anything?

[Deltabreedy]

Is the move to Alianna designed to cover off on distancing your buddy? The Tal/Keria interactions would follow a reasonably similar thread during D1. I can recall it but I'll ISO overnight to check.

Ender? My only critique of Ender is that they aren't here enough tbh. Even in my big catchup they were kind of town by omission since they didn't do much either D1 or D2. I have greater suspicions of Alianna/Tal though given the history and your pivot from Ender to Alianna.

[Deltabreedy]

If the flip was incorrect, why would Happy have responded with 'I'm confirmed innocent child'? How would they have responded with details of PC and theirs Mason Chat? I also apparently 'immediately' recognised this error... 6 days in and after Happy intimated that that wasn't it.

Listen to yourself

[Deltabreedy]

It's a minor point regardless but if I know 100% that it's not the kill its so funny that apparently I'm not informed enough to not push it but I'm informed enough to fake stuff around it

Idk feels ridiculous also I am resenting that only delta is interacting with me lol

You and I apart from brief interludes have been the only two talking for pages and pages lmao what?

[Deltabreedy]

@Alianna give us a tinkle when you're all caught up

[Deltabreedy]

Actually, I might break this up because I hate making long multiquote walls. I may not end up doing this in an organized fashion though.
I'll start with this stuff on p39 that was directed at me.

From what I can see Koba's only motivation for voting me boils down to:

- I'm voting for them
- Faulty meta reads

Alianna, how you're townreading Koba despite a fraudulent claim (which frankly, I place no stock in)

and no desire to solve (hence the faulty meta reads to force a mislim) is beyond me.

It was definitely more than that...

I'm not townreading them

despite

the fraudulent claim, I'm townreading them

because of

the fraudulent claim. Yes, I know that sounds ridiculous.
Softing doc as VT is a legitimate strategy to try to bait the kill onto yourself and keep the real PRs alive another day. Koba's posting has been consistent with trying to do this. Even before I brought up the doc softing or you brought up the TMI (which I assumed was part of the softing), they jumped to the assumption that they were supposed to die. This reaction to the mod error feels random coming from scum, but makes perfect sense coming from town who was trying to get killed.
There is the possible scum motivation of trying to bait a CC, but this feels less plausible to me as there were already two conflicting claims, and I think the reactions to those claims would have allowed scum to take a pretty good guess. Depending on who it is, scum knowing their own identities might be able to help them narrow down the pool even further. I don't think scum had a shortage of information to PR hunt off of, so I don't see why one of them would feel the need to sacrifice themself for that purpose.

A read being faulty doesn't mean they lack desire to solve??? Idk, might have to check some context here.

- Why are they -ok- with you being suddenly nice to them, Alianna when really that'd frequently be seen as rather odd?

I think the reason Koba gave was actually quite believable, so can you explain what you're getting at here? Are you insinuating that they're trying to pocket me?

Yeah so the fraudulent claim doesn't work for me because whilst a fake claim as a VT can be legitimate, the certainty with which the claim was made here in #308 leads me to believe that there is TMI knowledge of setup. Essentially, what Koba says isn't 'If there is a doc', it's 'The Doc':

unfortunately iamveryhappy is our only clear here for now, as the doc is technically not clear now, *but* nightplay will reveal more

That kind of absolute certainty can only come from 2 places - Being a doctor, or being scum. As we now know that there in fact isn't a doc given the flip, it leads to Koba being scum. The doubling down on the 'thats not the kill' concern could come from scum or town given the nature of it being a mod error that we're as yet unaware of. I actually find that section about mod error to be kinda 'eh'.

---

So the faulty read is maybe a mistype as I recall being very in-the-flow. The read is fundamentally faulty because their scumread on me originally was said to be formed as the result of a meta read. That meta read was fundamentally flawed, as I pointed out.

They then went on to suggest that the solve points towards me, but since then have failed to justify time and time again exactly how. 'Everyone else is townier than Delta' ok cool, but how? This leads to the conclusion that this (the 2nd argument put towards scum!me) is a read that is fraudulent. If the solve pointed at me, then why did it require the invention of a false meta read to justify it?

This doesn't even include the attempt to antagonise me and push me into being ineffective, as I was for some time. This is a technique that Koba used earlier in D2 that completely mirrors what scum!UsesPython did in my previous game, and it knocked me off balance for

Days

. This was, I believe, an attempt to lim someone who was replacing in, who could be driven to emotion pretty easily and to no credit of my own, I allowed them to do it, it was pretty fresh and raw and really still irks me tbh but I've mostly moved on from that. I still believe it indicates scumhood, as why would Town!Koba seek to delegitimise me so early? Is it because I voted for them?

I have various other reasons to scumread Koba, but this should respond to your post in full Alianna. I can quote those posts if you want.

[Deltabreedy]

Probably because they're having a conversation with me? That and my #1121 was a complete rebuttal of the townread they have on you. Also realistically, they aren't up on the block alongside me today so I can have a significantly more reasonable conversation with them, as I had with ender earlier, and as I imagine I'll have with Starfire when they also return.

You're really keen to point out pointscoring until you do it yourself. Where's that case on me again?

[Deltabreedy]

Where's that case on me again?

I've shown my working. Where's yours?

[Deltabreedy]

At some point you have to admit that pushing this far on faith alone is a bit of a stretch. Time and time again I've asked you to show your case, show your solve, show your working.

I'm not as definite in my secondary reads as you are because I'm still working it out, Koba.

[Deltabreedy]

anyways probably has to be starfire and delta , smiley is the GOAT

So not Alianna anymore then? And you reached this conclusion how?

Can you show your working on Star?

[Deltabreedy]

Where's that case on me again?

I've shown my working. Where's yours?

bro do your team a favor and stop posting

No. Wheres your solve gone? 5 hours ago it was Me and Ender. 5 minutes ago it was Me and Alianna. Now it's Me and Starfire - and all I'm asking is for you to justify these reads beyond 'trust me bro'. The fact that you can't suggests you're now just throwing a bit of shade at everyone else in the game to sow a bit of confusion and discord.

You're embarrassed for me? Cool - but I shan't stop posting and I shan't let you shut down discussion just like that.

[Deltabreedy]

For someone claiming to be a townie u have 0 imperative to look for info now

But I'm engaging with Alianna and you're trying to shut the discussion down.

You say you're solving, I'm just asking you to show your work, as I have done all along. Where was your work on Ender? On Alianna? Where is it now on Star? What cleared Ender and Alianna today in your mind? Where are these thoughts, cause they've not made it into the thread.

I've shown all of your points against me to be based in falsehoods and misrepresentations, so there's literally no case on me. It's not a case of 'Just ISO me bro lul'. It's a case of you have nothing, and that is the root cause of this flailing, because this is now the best thing you can do to confuse us going into tomorrow.

[Deltabreedy]

My god finally, I mean it's seriously surface-level and you pulled it out your arse but it's something.

I do get the sense that at this point you're just townreading folks that aren't voting for you though. Why did you work to stifle my talking to Alianna and understanding her POV? You're concerned about my 'lack of solving' when it's basically been you and me for 2 days, and when I'm able to talk to Ender, able to talk to Alianna - you shut down the chat.

You're so keen on devaluing and making completely reductive statements about what I say - why's it taken you so long to justify your reads?

[Deltabreedy]

Again, Koba's only objective is survival - pure and simple. That's why they're suddenly throwing townreads at those who aren't voting them. That's the motivation behind the actions. There's no solving here, no attempt to engage with folks and derive anything - Koba's just purely reacting to the gamestate and putting themselves in an optimal position to survive. THAT is why their 'townreads' are so frequent and flimsily being chucked around.

[Deltabreedy]

Koba you're embarrassing yourself. You've a really bad case of last-word syndrome without actually adding anything.

I'm off to bed, I may be around on my phone. Take care folks, I'll try to be around before deadline.

[Deltabreedy]

I gave you the 'I've made my case, and my rest and my early rise tomorrow are more important to me than bickering fruitlessly with confscum'. Whoever has the hammer overnight either will or won't make their choice, and in the morning I can pick this up again should the hammer not have fallen on either of us.

I won't let you interpret my need to rest and work as scummy, you've been ridiculous so far - why compound it?

I mean I guess you're going to remain awake, and I'd assume you're going to take full advantage of that time to misrepresent everything I've said. Good luck unpicking the web of lies and slander you spun yourself.

[Deltabreedy]

'My arguments made' okay chief, good one.

And I'm the one that's in the wrong for heading out, but you're about to do the exact same thing - tell me how I'm pointscoring?

Or whatever, don't. I'm sick of your lies on lies, your reductive pointscoring and your churlish behaviour. It's a bit excessive and boring now.

[Deltabreedy]

So I'm the Mason.

PC and Jason agreed D1 to let Happy cook as we went along the game because they didn't know if they were a VT trying to draw out an NK - broadly when PC and I spoke before their demise we TR'd Happy and then in D2 as it started with the flip and them claiming to be the other Mason. They were confirmed scum . PC and Jason in the Mason thread (and myself, for like 2 posts before the day actually started and PC was mcyeeted) agreed that if they maintained their claim into D2 not to push them too hard, and to see if they hard commit to it. We both suspected Koba heavily and I said at first that I wanted to read the game in full on it's own merit. We weren't actually expecting a PC kill so were a bit surprised by that.

PC dropped a list in our chat before their untimely demise which intimated that we should lead with a Koba lim and to be honest when I read through I agreed and well - we all saw Koba's play yesterday. I think I had every reason to suspect them as well, and 3 of you did too. I won't accept it if people try to pin their lim on me and me alone. I was planning on turning on Happy today anyway but yesterday I didn't push it too much because I needed them to be forced to bus (who I suspected to be) their partner.

I knew that by differentiating my argument from Koba's enough I could push it through, make my argument from reason not emotion and Happy full-sent on the wagon really early which boxed them in. At first for me this was a 'gotcha' but of course, we saw how that went. In hindsight I ought to have expected maybe a little more reluctance from scum to lim their 'partner' but Happy seemed almost bloodthirsty towards the end and I just didn't clock that it was a sign of Town!Koba.

How can I justify this claim? I asked Happy (who had to be prompted by a few different folks) what they and PC had discussed and they were super minimal in their response. If you were to look at the claim in isolation, can anyone here justify why Mason!Happy wouldn't drop a big post (especially since they were, as they claimed, inadvertently mod-confirmed). It's shrewd and opportunistic, but I don't think anyone else saw it beyond Happy who was free to lie and claim the IC. At that point I thought it best to let them cook and dig themselves into a hole but I've honestly completely shagged it. Big misplay from me to be honest, and I'll cop my share of the blame if my lack of immediate claiming has thrown the game but it wasn't something PC and I really considered too much. Also, killing Alianna means that they can pump more pressure onto me as they look to say 'well Alianna suspected Delta and now they're dead so...'.

Today we should drop Happy who is confirmed scum. Under other circumstances I would suggest that we cross and I'd be happy to go first but this is now Lim-Or-Lose because PC and I have misplayed on Koba. It's my bad more than anything because I let myself justify on them again and again and really got tunnelled-in on town as town which is something I really need to drop from my game but there it is.

For tomorrow I'd suggest that it's between Ender & Starfire to be honest. Smiley sheeping Koba felt a bit like newb!town following experienced!town on a reread - when I saw the flip I thought it was really suspect their support for Koba. I would likely have TR'd them had Koba flipped scum thinking that they were a town fooled by scum rather than scum sheeping town, but they still have the least liklihood to be scum out of the remaining players after Happy. I would have suspected Alianna but for the kill, Ender took a long time to justify on their partner and went to great lengths to ensure that it was SEEN to be hummed and haah'd about, which I would have found suspect whichever way the flip went because I think a lot of Ender's justification for the lim was motivated by Koba suspecting them for today's lim. Starfire I think planted their vote early on and let things cook - they kind of coasted through D2 but on balance I would put my vote on Ender over Starfire tomorrow.

VOTE: Happy
Conf!Scum

[Deltabreedy]

Apologies for the late post - I would have liked to get this out earlier in the day but have been up and down the UK today, so not had any free time to compose this.

[Deltabreedy]

Why the fuck would I soft?

You realise that softs prove absolutely nothing, right?

Come On, Please!

Look, I just softed Cop, does it mean I am? No!

---

Why would I need to convince you Ender? I just said tomorrow you're my preferred lim. Be serious now.

Shock horror the scumteam vote in unison against me

[Deltabreedy]

'Did you soft?' As though that proves anything Happy

[Deltabreedy]

Tell me this Happy, why didn't you share any of what you and PC talked about?

Ender if you're seriously saying IAVH's play is minimal - whilst I hate to drag it up, I've played several townhomes with them, and their playstyle is significantly more chaotic as town. Happy coasted yesterday to an easy Mislim because they saw Koba and I and knew that there was no other lim, they could sit back and enjoy the show - I think it's rough that they threw you under the bus to cast the deciding vote because it just makes it more likely that they live

If you vote me, there is no tomorrow, be smart about this. Had I CC'd yesterday, Koba would have pushed my lim and we'd be completely without PC, Jason's and now my insight which is literally vital to the hame

[Deltabreedy]

If the strongest thing that Happy can say is 'did you soft' and 'lmao you misplayed' then fuck me sideways how are you believing them unless you're their partner

[Deltabreedy]

VOTE: Delta
ehh predicted.
I telling you that's useless.
have you hidden any softs?
you literally
jason slot never sussed me fpr that
you acknowledged me as conf d2
all to cc me d3
shoulda done it earlier
this
is an example of a misplay
everyone knows you are desperate for a hammer on me
ehh
defense mode go brrr

Before I hammer Delta for scumclaiming here, Happy what our your thoughts on Starfire/Ender. It's near certain hat either you or me die tonight so I want to make the most out of each other's input while we have it

Hammer me and we lose this game cause happy claimed cop

Or was it mason

You realise Happy never actually claimed right? They were prompted into it by a mod error

I'm wondering if they saw the error and assumed that the error was in fact the kill target and thought 'time to salvage this'

[Deltabreedy]

@mod: requesting prod on Starfire if poss - it's been 3 daytime IRL days since they last posted

[Deltabreedy]

If Ender's vote is still on me when I wake up then I will consider the game solved, it's just a matter of limming them then

[Deltabreedy]

So Happy is like Conf town.

Mikhail is a troll, don't know their alignment, hopefully reading Alianna can clear that up.
I feel like Starfire is scum for not even considering that Happy is Town PR IN THE CASE THAT Mikhail flips town. (Scum are more likely to not notice that this is a fake, Town can understand that it can be fake, and therefore Happy could be town PR.)
Keria is town.
Ender feels like scum with Starfire given posts like 86
PC feels town.

Who does that leave?

Madushia and Smiley

ISO time.

Madushia feels like they would be scum WITH Mikhail.
Smiley feels town from their reads on other players

Scum are likely to think Town is real claiming, thus be confused by the softing.

Starfire and Ender both seem to basically just ignore the fact that Happy is very obviously softing, and like Happy was basically telling them that he is softing, yet they both seem to think it's more reasonable that he is scummy for what he has done, then reconsider that Mikhail is bad, this is more likely to come from scum, because they know they are bad and thus not Mikhail, whereas town are going to go "Ok, Happy and Mikhail are trying to both claim contradicting roles, something is wrong here, let's wait and see"

some support of me being mason from your sub

SNIP~

If Happy wasn't already confirmed, at this point I'd be saying that #33 gives me major townvibes.

SNIP~

---

But we know now that the Masons are PC and IAVH

... just guh?

SNIP~

your cc doesn't work AT ALL lol

Haven't you been a mason in another game? You know that Masons can talk privately and what we say in public might not be entirely accurate to what we say?

PC and Jason discussed letting it slide in D1 and then overnight when I replaced in I chatted with Clout about your Cop claim - we figured that if it wasn't redacted we'd maintain the status quo in order to go ahead and lim someone that we found scummy - IE Koba. I said cool, but let me check first and on re-reading I came to much the same conclusion.

Again, had I CC'd yesterday, I 100% would have been the lim, and in my mind Koba was conf!scum by midway through D2 for which I needed you to bus them.

Naturally, I didn't realise it was town but this was an opinion that PC, Jason and I all held through D1 and N1 and one that I sustained through D2.

@Ender on the off chance that it's not you and that it's one of Star or Smiley - can you explain why you're punishing me for making the Argument on town that you sheeped? Like bruh - take some responsibility.

[Deltabreedy]

Anyway yeah Happy should be today's lim

[Deltabreedy]

Scum are often used to being the only ones that can scheme - look at how synchronised the response has been and how Ender's only response was to come out with an argument against