Newbie 656 Game Over!

[Artem]

Confirming the replacement of owsianko.

Unvote

until I do a read-through.

Will post later tonight or tomorrow.

[Artem]

I'm not liking RandomGem's self-vote and then pointing finger on himself and going "Lurker". How is that pro-town, unless you're telling us that you're scum, in which case:

Vote: RandomGem

.

I say this, because my feeling is that most of you attacking Drifter are barking up the wrong tree. To me, his actions come off as newbie town more than they do scum.

If this wasn't day 1, I'd say that it's a cop telling us to back off an investigated townie. But it

is

day 1, so the statement begs the question: why are you so convinced that Drifter is town?

Personally, I've seen plenty of newbies inadvertently claim vanilla, but what bothers me is Drifter's

yeh, I see what you mean apologies to the townies for that. Unless I turn out not to be a vanilla townie.

...followed by erratic attempts to cover-up the claim. Why? Also, is he saying that he's not apologizing if he's scum?

FoS: Drifter

I also don't like Sion bandwagoning Drifter with nothing better than a "Too bad" argument in 53.

FoS: Sion

Finally, owsianko's vote on lifeofpie appears to be, as he said, aimed to get a reaction. When lifeofpie gave a joking reaction to a joke vote, owsianko unvoted. How is that scummy again and why are you trying to paint it scummy?

FoS: RandomGem, Fenchurch

[Artem]

To be honest, I'm still not not sure either way whether being inactive in the game can be counted as a sign of scumminess or not. On the one hand, there are plenty of legitimate, real-life reasons which might cause someone to be inactive. On the other, not posting means you prevent the other players from being able to analyse you, for scum-tells or for town-tells.

One way to tell if somebody is lurking is to see whether they are posting in other games. Another way is to request a prod and if the player picks up the prod but doesn't post, then they are likely avoiding posting on purpose.

Aw, I feel left out. Eh, you can't really FOS both Sion and Drifter, because one bandwagoned the other (unless it's an elaborate ploy, which I suppose is possible). Who do you think is scummyer?

Well, just because I FOS two players doesn't mean that I think both to be scum at the same time. One scenario might involve Sion being scum and bandwagoning Drifter for hypocritical reasons, another scenario might involve Drifter being scum who attempted to claim vanilla and then backtracked, realizing that it's anti-town.

If I had to rate the players I FOSd from most to least scummy, it would probably be:

RandomGem
Sion
Drifter
Fenchurch

Also, where did Drifter say he's not apologizing if he's scum?

Well, if I'm reading this right, then here:

yeh, I see what you mean apologies to the townies for that.

Unless I turn out not to be a vanilla townie.

Drifter should probably tell us what he meant there.

[Artem]

Finally, owsianko's vote on lifeofpie appears to be, as he said, aimed to get a reaction. When lifeofpie gave a joking reaction to a joke vote, owsianko unvoted. How is that scummy again and why are you trying to paint it scummy?

FoS: RandomGem, Fenchurch

Interesting how you took my vote to not be a joke and theirs to be a joke when I did the opposite. I was thinking that if it was a joke vote, then he wouldn't mind the joke OMGUS. But instead, he took off his vote, which to me made it not look like a joke vote and that he was trying to take pressure off himself.

Here's the sequence of posts related to owsianko's vote:

vote: lifeofpie

Because it seems he dislikes Family Guy, or maybe he may think I'm scum for liking Family Guy.

Yeah, I think you're scum for liking family guy...

I never said I thought your name was weird..? It's definitely not as weird as some others I've seen.

Anyone have any pie?

Unvote

I was just looking for a reaction.

First off, I'm not seeing the OMGUS. OMGUS implies voting for no reason other than because the subject of the vote is voting you back. To my knowledge, lifeofpie was voting Shadowlurker at the time. Second, owsianko's vote was fishing for reaction and it appears that not getting anything worthwhile, owsianko decided to unvote. I think that keeping his vote on lifeofpie for a joke reason would have been more scummy as it would have been a convenient way to "park" a vote.

I don't really understand how your self-vote falls under the same category. Sure, it was during a joke phase, but what were you attempting to achieve with it?

Okay, have access again... (not that it's made a difference so far)
Who are the IC's?
---
You can vote for yourself? Cool!

unvote, vote: RandomGem

He is

so

obviously scum.

Voting yourself is a great way to start a WIFOM argument and I see no benefit from it to the town.

Same thing with calling yourself out for lurking? If you're looking for somebody to put pressure on you, then here you go.

[Artem]

I know that newbies sometimes do that sometimes, but why continue to point scummy things out in own behavior?

Also, is there a reason you're answering for RandomGem?

[Artem]

Not saying this is what's happening in this situation, but the problem with answering for other players is giving them ideas, which they may sometimes happily adopt. As such, the behavior should be discouraged.

For example, if RandomGem didn't already state that his vote was a joke in 113, I could point out that lifeofpie gave him the idea in 117.

@RandomGem: so, suppose your self-vote was a newbie doing the unusual move. What was the point of calling yourself out for lurking?

[Artem]

Also, chapter 5 still owes us an explanation for his/her vote.

[Artem]

The reason my vote is Drifter is that while normally I would consider his actions newbietown (the early claim) but these two posts were very aggressive behavior which I don't think I've ever seen after someone claims early (and I've only seen newbietown do that)

Yea, but have you seen newbies haphazardly trying to cover up their mistakes? On the other hand...

Drifter: why are you trying to cover up your vanilla claim? You're not helping the town and you can't exactly fool the scum; they already know your alignment.

Also, I really don't like the fact Drifter seems to constantly want a deadline. We have good activity right now, double the pages of my other newbie game which only started slightly later, and deadlines are rarely helpful to the town.

I'm not seeing where he's asking for a deadline. I'm seeing where he's wondering if there is a deadline, but given his vote lead, that's kind of understandable, don't you think?

I don't like Artem's post 107, not only are four players FoSed, he mentions the cop which is fishing, and votes RandomGem for what I find to be a crappy reason considering RandomGem has made many other contributions and it's obvious his self voting was just to stir up discussion in the early game.

And what's wrong with FoSing four people after doing my read-through? Also, why is it that when somebody even as much as uses the words "cop" or "doc", somebody else immediately jumps on them yelling "FISHING!". Did you even read the point I was making or do you honestly expect the real cop to come out and claim after reading my post?

So, my reason for voting RandomGem is crappy and your vote for Drifter is well-justified. Well, that's nice considering you're voting him because he's exhibiting a behavior you've never seen before.

Sure, I also suspect Drifter, but that's because I think he had some sort of a slip in #72 (I sill haven't seen the answer to my question about him saying that he's not apologizing to us if he's scum) and because he's trying to backpedal on his claim as if scum realizing they made some sort of a mistake.

I also don't understand what you are referring to by RandomGem's "many other contributions". Looking over his posts, all I'm seeing are some questions, joke comments and a brief FoS of owsianko's vote/unvote and your aggressiveness. Then I come along and put some pressure on him so he's also got a few defense posts. He's done no scumhunting other than to call himself out for lurking. He's also one of the three currently not voting, the other two being a lurker/inactive player and a guy that agrees with everything you've said so far a 100%. RandomGem looks to me like a player who's just coasting along. Still think my reasons are crappy?

As far as chapter 5 and lifeofpie, I don't find them as suspicious as RandomGem and Sion (who is either lurking or abandoned the game).

thinktank, you have posted a fair amount, but they are mainly in the role of IC answering questions, and you haven't made any votes since your random one. Do you have any comments about the game, besides Drifter and his claim?

I think Shadowlurker makes some excellent arguments.

Looking back at Drifter's statements. Shadowlurker seems to be on the money. A drifter lynch would definitely be a possibility.

On Artem, I am also agree with Shadowlurker. That last Artem post wreaks of suspicion.

At the moment my two picks for today's lynch are Artem and Drifter. At this point Drifter ranks higher on the scum meter but all this is subject to change on what happens in the next few pages.

Ok. "I agree with everything Shadowlurker said. Let's lynch." while not voting yourself is not only a content-less post but it also reeks of scum keeping their options open and not wanting to get their hands dirty.

FoS: Thinktank

[Artem]

Drifter, do you plan on answering my questions:

-Why are you trying to cover up your vanilla claim? You're not helping the town and you can't exactly fool the scum; they already know your alignment.
-What did you mean in the second sentence of

yeh, I see what you mean apologies to the townies for that. Unless I turn out not to be a vanilla townie.

Post 74 asks about a deadline and he was told the mod will impose one if there is a lack of activity. It is the phrasing that matters in post 134. He asks the mod if he's "imposing a deadline for Day 1" which sounds like he knows there is a deadline and is asking if the mod is going to do it (as well as a bit of slight pressure for the mod to do it) rather than "are we currently under deadline?"

I've read it differently but rather than speculating and giving Drifter a host of answers to choose from, why don't we just ask him.

Drifter: Why did you ask about mod imposing a deadline in 134?

The point was that there was no reason at all to include this sentence on what you think the cop would or would not do, "If this wasn't day 1, I'd say that it's a cop telling us to back off an investigated townie." And obviously the point of fishing isn't to get a power role to come out and blatantly claim; that's demanding a claim, not fishing. Fishing is looking for reactions to a statement about a power role to get a better gauge on who the power roles are.

I see your point but when I was making the statement, I felt that it was fairly safe to do so because I didn't see a reason for the cop (if we have one) to react to this statement at all. I was making the point that Fenchurch's phrasing of "Barking up the wrong tree" struck me as odd for day 1, but, admittedly, I could have made the same point without a reference to the cop.

Ok, "many other contributions" was a bad choice of wording. What I was trying to say was RandomGem has done many other things that I've noted down and I didn't like your pointing out something as trivial as that which I saw nothing into as a reason. Lurking in plain sight and slipping by is a much better reason to be voting someone but you didn't state that originally (or at least not clearly enough for me)

No, originally I voted him for what I thought was an attempt to start a WIFOM argument. I put pressure on him, expecting to see "It wouldn't make for scum to do that (call themselves out for lurking)". But that phrase never came. However, other things that I would expect from a townie (like scumhunting) didn't come either (until just recently, where he started to ask questions).

And to be fair, you never stated what these other pro-town things you've noted are either.

[Artem]

Also here. I'm waiting to hear from Sion's replacement. Also waiting on ShadowLurker to address my comments if he has anything to say. Still keeping my eye and pressure vote on RandomGem.

Don't really like Drifter's "The scum don't know if I'm a power-role or not". I don't see how he's being helpful or pro-town by playing around with something that borders on fishing.

Also, this

Drifter: Why did you ask about mod imposing a deadline in 134?

I asked because I'm knew to the game and wondered if there was a deadline/how long we had before the end of the day.

doesn't really explain why Drifter asked about a deadline for the second time, immediately following a votecount post.

[Artem]

Verbose defensive posts under pressure are not necessarily a bad thing, as they provide more content and more chance for scum (if the person defending themselves is indeed scum) to slip.

[Artem]

I think I'm going to put Drifter at L-2. Not only his "The mafia don't know if I'm a power-role" backtracking after claiming vanilla borders on fishing, his general unhelpfulness and lack of scumhunting rivals that of RandomGem.

Unvote; vote Drifter

Some questions for Drifter:
1. Why did you ask about a deadline in 134, when you were already told the answer in 75?
2. Who do you find most suspcious? Why?
3. What is the meaning/purpose of your 192? The only thing I see coming out it is major WIFOM.

[Artem]

Artem putting his vote on Drifter is very interesting for me, as they're both in my top three for scum (the last one, Mallick, not being here)

I'm not too fond of players that say "This is interesting..." because it's an attempt to fabricate suspicion without explicit listing of reasons.

If you find me voting Drifter suspicious, then please explain why and address my reasons for voting and Drifter's responses.

@Drifter: Why do you think fenchurch is the closest to a confirmed townie we have?

[Artem]

Artem putting his vote on Drifter is very interesting for me, as they're both in my top three for scum (the last one, Mallick, not being here)

I'm not too fond of players that say "This is interesting..." because it's an attempt to fabricate suspicion without explicit listing of reasons.

If you find me voting Drifter suspicious, then please explain why and address my reasons for voting and Drifter's responses.

Way to put words in my mouth.

All the more reason behind why you shouldn't be making such open-ended statements such as "<This and this> is interesting...".

In my (somewhat limited) experience, players use such phrases to cast suspicion on other players without providing any reason behind the suspicion itself.

If your interest is not suspicion, then please elaborate also.

[Artem]

/prodded

Mallick picking up prods but not posting makes me think that he's actively lurking.

Waiting for Drifter to answer my question.

[Artem]

Mallick picking up prods but not posting makes me think that he's actively lurking.

Mallick did not pick up my most recent prod.

Well... I was referring to:

Mallick picked up his prod the day I sent it. Thanks for the thanks NabNab

Looking forward to the replacement..... again.

[Artem]

The reason there is so little content is because we're all either waiting on Drifter to answer the questions directed at him or waiting for Mallick to get replaced by something who will finally start posting.

By the way, I've played a game where Dave (mafia) was picking up prods and not posting and then learned to stop picking up prods and was eventually replaced. (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7891)

[Artem]

EBWOP: something = somebody in the first sentence. ( Finger memory )

[Artem]

@Randomgem: No personal offense is intended. There are players in this game that are simply along for the ride and up until the last post you were one of them. Coming along for the ride is great for scum because they already know the alignment of all players and have no need to do the scumhunting. I like your last post because it points out the things you find suspicious and your thoughts on the other players.

@Thinktank: Who are you top suspects? Why?

@Chapter 5: Same question.

[Artem]

thinktank: Please post something, we haven't had anything from you apart from placeholders for about a fortnight, and it looks you are still posting in other games.

thegeckoj: If we lynch Drifter today and he flips town, then based on the current information who would you judge most scummy? Do you think it is time to lynch Drifter yet, and if not, what should we be waiting for?

Artem: Hmm... could you answer the same two questions as above, please?

If Drifter flips town, I think that there's a good chance that at least one mafia was on his bandwagon.

lifeofpie's vote on Drifter came from the joke phase and only when Shadowlurker went after Drifter and I started asking Drifter questions did llifeofpie provided real justification behind his vote:

I stick by my vote. Drifter has been contradictory.

On the other hand, maybe we should kill Sion because his lack of activity hurts the town.

I also don't like how Shadowlurker jumped all over Drifter for a vanilla claim. I've seen newb-town do that before. On the other hand, Drifter is not being pro-town by going back on his claim with his "Mafia don't know if I'm a power role", which borders on fishing. I also don't like his WIFOM in 192.

If Drifter flips scum, the most likely candidate for a buddy would be chapter 5, who is not voting anybody at the moment and who attempted to start a bandwagon on Fenchurch, and when realized that the bandwagon is not going to pick up steam, went back to not voting anybody.

Personally, I would like Drifter to address the rest of the questions directed at him before we lynch him. Replacement is also an option but I doubt the replacement will know what went on in Drifter's head.

[Artem]

I also don't like how Shadowlurker jumped all over Drifter for a vanilla claim. I've seen newb-town do that before.

Clarification: I've seen newb-town inadvertently claim vanilla before.

[Artem]

I also don't like how Shadowlurker jumped all over Drifter for a vanilla claim. I've seen newb-town do that before.

Clarification: I've seen newb-town inadvertently claim vanilla before.

What part about Drifter's claim makes you think it was "inadvertent" ? He explicitly stated that it was a claim.

Inadvertent in the sense that some newb-town players don't know any better than to either soft-claim or to claim with a handful of votes on them. I don't know if Drifter's claim was inadvertent claim from a townie or contrived claim from a mafia. But you did jump on him rather quickly.

[Artem]

Please provide a link to the town you've seen doing that before. "Rather quickly" is a weasel word that means nothing. I'm going to jump on something I feel is suspicious as soon as I see it (especially if it's page 2 or 3 when there's not much else). In fact, I'd be more suspicious of the ones who waited to see if it was a prime wagon or not.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7891, post 40.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8255, post 356.

I know this borders on WIFOM, but you could be scum thinking that it would be too suspicious to wait and see if the bandwagon picks up steam so you jump all over it first.

"This is interesting..." is a weasel word too.

[Artem]

viewtopic.php?t=7891, post 40.
viewtopic.php?t=8255, post 356.

Umm, Artem, I can't find claims in either of the posts you list.
"wait can the none noobs in this game be mafia too?"
and
"@Mod: This 2 week deadline is going to fly right by, and if it does because people keep going away or not posting then I'm claiming my role. Care to extend that deadline?"

Sorry, post 43 in the first one:

"By the way, there's no point in me saying this, as it's not proveable, but I'm going to go on record as saying it anyway, so It doesn't look like I'm not defending myself: I'm not scum."

It's a claim of the alignment not a role, but still: since it serves no purpose, why do it?
The second one is a soft claim. DB was hinting at a power role.

Drfiter's claim is different than both of these in the sense that he first claims vanilla (ok, could be newb-town that doesn't know any better like the two I linked), but then goes back on himself with "the mafia don't know if I'm a power-role". (I'm reading that as mafia realizing he's in trouble and attempting to fish for power-roles for his buddy.)

[Artem]

I just don't buy it as fishing. If he had said "town don't know if I'm a power role or not", then maybe, because someone in the town might think "yes I do", and pipe up. But the way he worded it, I wouldn't say it's fishing any more than you mentioning the word "cop" earlier.

It's potential fishing because the mafia know more about the game setup than we do.

For example, if the mafia don't have a role-blocker, then they know they are facing either the cop or the doctor. So, if Drifter-scum hints at a power role, the real cop (if it's a setup with the cop) might get a false sense of security thinking that Drifter is the doc and come out, thinking that Drifter would protect him.

I'm not trying to fish for roles here. I'm just explaining a hypothetical scenario, where Drifter's backtracking could be dangerous to us. It's not straight-up fishing, but, like I said earlier, it borders on it.

[Artem]

chapter 5, I just gave them a couple days ago, not going to copy and paste them again. Have you been reading the thread?

Yes, I saw that. I don't know how much those were "thoughts" but instead little one sentence blurbs intended to satisfy the town. Call this gut and nothing else, but I'm convinced you're scum. Hopefully I notice something in the future. I've tried rereading the thread but all I get is this big target sign on ShadowLurker for reasons I can't figure out.

Ironically, I get that feeling about you.

I think that you attempted to start a wagon on Fenchurch and when that wagon wasn't picking up steam, you unvoted and went to lurking.

[Artem]

Mod: Can we get a replacement of Drifter?

I think the lack of participation from the primary suspect is stalling the game.

[Artem]

Who would you say are the lurkerish people at the moment, besides Drifter?

Half of the town?

[Artem]

I still think that Drifter is the best lynch candidate for today. Combined with the whole claim/backtracking, he's picking up prods but not posting, which means that he's probably hoping that will all just blow over.

The second best candidate for a lynch is chapter 5.

I stopped the wagon because Fenchurch didn't continue to do scummy things, and therefore I consider my case against her a fluke more than anything else.

You started the bandwagon because of Fenchurch posting too much and you felt that she was posting for the sake of posting. Fenchurch is still posting just as much as before, yet you seem to be of different opinion now. I think you stopped the wagon because nobody else was coming along for the ride.

You then went after ShadowLurker, but again without clear reasons.

[Artem]

Lot of talk have been going on about Drifter's townie/vanilla townie/I might be cop/doc -claim. Why would scum claim vanilla townie in the early stage of the game? No real reason, only if you aren't clear of the game concept you might do that. Why would townie claim vanilla townie in the early stage of the game? No real reason neither, only if you aren't clear of the game concept. You can make your own decision which one do you think the reason is, but making the lynching decision based on this is like flipping a coin - pure luck.

The problem is not that Drifter claimed vanilla, because as both me and Fenchurch pointed out, newbie-town have a tendency to do that. (Ok, ShadowLurker says that claiming a role is different than claiming alignment, but bear with me...) The problem is that Drifter

went back

on his claim with "The mafia don't know if I'm a power-role". Why would a townie say that? If I was mafia, I would be pretty much convinced that Drifter is

not

a power-role after his first claim. So, I doubt Drifter's "covering up the tracks" is causing any more confusion for the mafia than it does for the town. On the other hand, Drifter-mafia can backtrack on his vanilla claim and play the WIFOM "If I was mafia, why would I draw attention to myself?" card. In fact, I think somebody else already brought it up for him.

So, a townie has no good reason to backtrack. A mafia has no reason to backtrack either, but that's exactly why they could.

To answer Fenchurch's (only FC now on) question would I had voted for Drifter? I can say that I would have given him a vote to pressure him to explain his actions, just like some players have made also. But I wouldn't be into lynching him, because the accusations made against him aren't really waterproof and there are other more suspicious players that have had the opportunity to slip under the radar and people who's statements should be looked more closely.

And something to say about RandomGem's actions and saying also.

I'm not trying to lynch him (Drifter). I'm just trying to put some pressure on him to get him to post.

If you are voting for someone you have to be willing and lynch him. You cannot put a vote for person and say it's not to lynch you. Yes, it can be to pressure people but it surely is vote to lynch also!

I find this to be a set of double-standards. You're saying that you would vote somebody (your predecessor) to put pressure on them but not lynch them, yet you're not happy with RandomGem doing the same.

[Artem]

I really cannot imagine that scum Drifter would have done such a plan that he's gonna in the future take the WIFOM card out to play considering his other actions during the game.

I wouldn't put WIFOM beyond Drifter:

What up guys? (please reply to this if you ARE mafia)

Although, granted, this WIFOM requires less thought than the "scum wouldn't role-backtrack".

Yes, I can easily see where the

town

is coming from and that Drifter himself...

Is that "town" as a collective of players or "town" as a collective of townies?

If I may ask a question, how much information do you really have on players and their actions like Chapter 5 and thegeckoj? In my first reading I noticed Chapter 5 was really doing a great job not contributing the game just like I did when I myself was a mafia in one game. It's easy to make post then and a post now but not telling anything for the rest of the town to work for. Best examples of this are the attacks against FC and SL.

I would say that you're trying to divert attention towards other players, but I

do

find chapter 5 scummy. The problem is that you simply echoed my arguments against chapter 5. But then again, it's not like chapter 5 has much content to go off on.

I need to think some more but your confused Drfter-townie-newbie theory may be viable.

[Artem]

He DID claim townie and after that he claimed vanilla townie. For newbie claiming townie is the same as claiming vanilla townie. For newbie it doesn't make any difference, because in roles NabNab wrote in the post #1, there are Townie, Doc, Cop, Mafia Goon and Mafia Roleblocker. So claiming townie means that Drifter claimed first time the same thing he claimed the second time, 'cause by claiming townie he meant what the PM for townie says. Where did this vanilla prefix come from? If you follow the townie PM's link to the wiki you'll notice that there it stands: "A Townie with no distinctive text to their role PM is sometimes called a Plain Vanilla Townie." So you saying Drifter changed his claim when claiming townie and then vanilla townie, I don't agree.

So, why is Drifter-townie more likely to follow the link than Drifter-scum?

Drifter's first claim:

wel being a townie it wouldn't be the best thing to do for the team.

just seeing if this works

vote thinktank

Drifter's second claim:

wifom? no, and

seeing as the bandwagon is picking up steam

, I tell you once again that I am a vanilla townie.

So, the way I'm reading it is Drifter-scum realizes that the bandwagon he started is going places, so he wants to affirm that he's indeed town. So he goes to page 1, clicks the "Townie" link to learn more about the role and pulls out the "vanilla" term off the wiki?

FoS: lifeofpie

for his vote. I don't understand the OMGUS, especially since Petunho is not voting you. If this is supposed to be a joke, then I fail to see the real reason for your vote. The rest of your post is "I agree with this, I disagree with this".

Also, can people please use

to specify who they are quoting, so we don't have to scroll up and look it up?

[Artem]

I don't think one "gives away" a position in Mafia; I disagree with reasoning like "obvscum". Even if one types "I AM MAFIA" in-thread, this is not a complete sign of being scum (although it probably should/will end in lynch).

But then again, Drifter didn't type "I AM MAFIA". While "obvscum" is more of a subjective view, none of us are perfect players and scum slips do happen. Alignment doesn't change when a replacement comes in, and while I like Petunho's arguments for the most part, he still got Drifter's behavior hanging behind him (or over him, or in front of him, ....whatever, it's there).

@Petunho: Can you please answer my question in 345? Why would Drifter-townie be more likely to follow the PM link than Drifter-scum? To me, the opposite makes more sense. The townie role PM tells you that you have no special powers except your vote, so what's the point in digging deeper? Scum, on the other hand, have a lot of motivation to learn more about a townie role: they are trying to imitate one.

I will gladly start a lynch attempt.

Vote: thegeckoj

Your L-1 vote on Drifter was suspicious enough, (eh, I guess I made one too, so double standard here ), but actively pursuing a quicklynch is something I can't support. Although admittedly, I'm bored with this day too.

Double-standard all around, indeed.

Rushing the game is a null-tell to me: it could be scum anxious to perform their night actions, it could also be frustrated townies starving for more information.

[Artem]

I would say, 'cause he received the PM from the mod, where the link was. It sound obvious that he had pushed the link when he received the PM and got the vanilla that way.

But he didn't claim vanilla until the second time, which means he likely didn't click the link until later? Why would a townie need to go back to their role PM?

[Artem]

Artem, earlier in the game, you didn't seem suspicious of the vanilla claim.

I also don't like how Shadowlurker jumped all over Drifter for a vanilla claim. I've seen newb-town do that before.

Clarification: I've seen newb-town inadvertently claim vanilla before.

What has made you change your mind now?

Drifter didn't just claim vanilla.

He had a whole chain of:
1. Soft-claims townie:

wel being a townie it wouldn't be the best thing to do for the team.

just seeing if this works

vote thinktank

2. Claims vanilla townie:

wifom? no, and seeing as the bandwagon is picking up steam, I tell you once again that I am a vanilla townie.

3. Backtracks on his claim:

yeh, I see what you mean apologies to the townies for that. Unless I turn out not to be a vanilla townie.

When I said that I've seen newbies inadvertently claim vanilla before, I was actually referring to the alignment, not the role (which, as Shadowlurker pointed out are two different things). The links I gave have newbies claiming alignment, which is what I was thinking about at the time.

What Drifter has done is a bit different: a soft-claim of alignment, followed by a role claim, followed by a back-tracking on the role claim.

[Artem]

Can I provide my thoughts on your suggestion, or would you prefer I wait until Petunho has responded?

You can post. It would be great to hear the thoughts of others.

[Artem]

Okay. Well the vanilla thing bothered as well, hence my earlier speculation about it, which I was rightly told off for as it involved too much assumption. But I can see where you're coming from with this, "Drifter conducting more research to try and strengthen his role claim".

Re-reading those quotes again though, and assuming if Drifter was a vanilla townie, wouldn't it have sounded unnatural if in the first one, "wel being a

vanilla

townie it wouldn't be the best thing to do for the team". The hardclaim isn't necessary for him to make his point there. Whereas in the second one, he is worrying about being lynched. The hardclaim isn't really necessary here either.. but lots of townies do make hardclaims when they are worried about being lynched. So in the context, I can still see these posts coming from newbie townie. He doesn't need to have gained the knowledge of "vanilla" in between, as the two posts serve different purposes.

Yea, except he hard-claimed because the "bandwagon was picking up steam", not because he was afraid to get lynched. Unless he's referring to the bandwagon against him, and not Shadowlurker's vote.

...and what about backtracking?

I don't know, I may be painting too complex of a scenario. I guess I could see Drifter-town role-claiming while at L-3, then realizing that he shouldn't have, backtrack on his own claim.

Mod: any news of Chapter 5 prod?

I will mention though, the one post of Drifter's that I do still find suspicious was his "Reply to this if you are mafia". It's based mainly on my gut feeling: I think I've seen similar pointless scumhunting-attempts coming from newb-scum, but I can't point to any in particular. And the fact that nobody else has focussed on it.. well I'm not sure what to make of that.

It's WIFOM. What's more there to focus on?

[Artem]

Do you mean that Drifter was trying to generate WIFOM with it, or that any arguments about what Drifter's intentions were will result in WIFOM?

I don't think either is true. I think Drifter's intention was to look like he was scumhunting, and I think such a poor attempt which would have meaningless results is more likely to come from scum than from town. But I don't have any evidence to back that up.

I mean that any response to his post would have been a WIFOM. As far as motivations for making the post in the first place, yes, it could be a poor attempt at scum-hunting, but just as with the whole claiming chain, we won't know for sure with Drifter gone.

For that matter, thinktank has been gone for over a week. And I'd like to hear some more from thegeckoj, as well.

Actually, add Shadowlurker to that list as well. There really hasn't been much in terms of content from Chapter 5, Thinktank, or Shadowlurker recently. It feels like the three are just laying back and watching the game.

[Artem]

Received prod.

Will post thoughts soon.

Apparently, thinktank has his own definition of soon.
Looking forward to something more substantial than:

The Petunho/geckoj wagons are far more viable than mine.

Also looking forward to any content from Chapter 5.

Okay.
Would you care to join one?
I am now able to sympathize with thegeckoj. This game is getting IMMENSELY boring.

Can you please explain your vote on thegeckoj again but in this context?

[Artem]

RandomGem, who do you find suspicious and why?

[Artem]

@Players that are bored with the day: I think it would be good to come to some sort of a consensus. Here are what I think are our options:

1. Vote no lynch
2. Go with a lurker lynch: Chapter 5 / thinktank
3. Go with a lynch based on one of the cases we have on the table, which are I think Petunho, and to a lesser extent thegeckoj and fenchurch;

Personally, I don't buy into the points presented against thegeckoj and fenchurch. I'm still suspicious of Petunho but would be OK with putting more pressure on / lynching the lurkers. No lynch is not a good option for the town.

What does everybody else think?

Also, I'm no expert on modding, but I think that when the game slow down this much

a deadline should be instated

[Artem]

Alright, in the interests of moving the game along, let's go with a lurker lynch:

Unvote; Vote: thinktank

[Artem]

Artem: not that I mind, but why you are voting thinktank rather than chapter 5, in light of your post 325

Yes, it's true, I find C5 more suspicious than thinktank, but, like I said, we need to come to the consensus for the game to move along. Thinktank was actively lurking, while C5 was being inactive. While I would have loved for C5 to post some defense or for the replacement to come in and actually contribute to the game, the game has been more or less dead for weeks. So, in the interests of moving it along, I went for the lurker lynch. Also, thinktank appeared more active than C5 and putting pressure on an active player is more likely to result in new content than pressuring an inactive player. Thus, my vote.

[Artem]

I think that since C5 is inactive but somebody made the night choice, there's a good chance that C5 is a townie.

Re-reading the last few posts during D1, I, too, am leaning towards lifeofpie bussing his buddy.

Vote: lifeofpie

[Artem]

I didn't want to vote think because he was IC and I figured that he would likely be able to assist us more.
Why was think a better lynch than C5?
I worked with what I had.

C5 was inactive, while thinktank was actively lurking. Thinktank was promising content and not providing it.

I would like to hear from RandomGem and Artem whether they think that we should be holding back, and also what thegeckoj is thinking about this case.

I'm happy with my vote, but I think we need to hear from thegeckoj and Petunho before we hammer.

This post, in particular, strikes me as scummy:

No, I meant if C5 posted something scummy I wouldn't vote for think.
*crosses fingers*
Unvote, Vote: thinktank

lifeofpie is looking for a way out of not voting for his buddy, but C5 is being inactive and thinktank is not defending himself. So, it feels like lifeofpie gets fed up and busses his buddy.

[Artem]

I'm here, I'm here.

thinktank casts suspicion on Artem in posts 138 and 143, but never votes for him. This can be a buddytell - create an appearance of being against each other, without actually voting. But then, thinktank never really voted for anyone. Artem sat on his Drifter wagon for a while, which can be a scum strategy. It was Artem's suggestion to end the day, and although he said he'd prefer to lynch chapter 5, he got on the thinktank wagon fairly early with the third vote, at a time when I feel that lynch could have been averted if he had wanted to. If this was bussing then it was a pretty good one.

I've actually called him out in 139 on agreeing with SL but not adding anything new or casting a vote himself. I think that thinktank was keeping his options open by not committing to a vote, something I found suspicious.

At the end of Day 1 I

did

find Chapter 5 more suspicious than thinktank, but as I said in 425, we needed a consensus to move the game along. I was happy with lynching Drifter/Petunho or Chapter 5, but when it became clear that we weren't going to agree on either, I thought that a lurker lynch would work well also.

Now, because there was a night kill and Chapter 5 was inactive and Petunho was on vacation, I'm leaning more towards both being town at the moment. Of course, either one could have submitted a night kill and simply not posted in the game itself, but that's a little bit of WIFOM territory.

At this point, I feel that the points presented against lifeofpie are valid and he is the next most logical choice. I'm not getting a clear read on RandomGem or thegeckoj and Fenchurch I've always got a good townie vibe from.

[Artem]

I don't think it's sensible to rule Petunho out. He posted his going-away message after the final lynch vote had been cast; in that situation, as scum, you could send your night choice in straight away before you leave, and I'd imagine the mod would accept it. I'm not saying that is what happened, but I don't think it's impossible.

Ok, good point. For some reason I thought that if Petunho sent in a night-kill choice before he left for V/LA then the night would be a lot shorter. I've seen mods end the night as soon as the night choices are in but I guess it's not a universal rule.

@Kair: I agree with the strategy but what do you mean by this:

Protects will not be necessary, as there were no blocked NKs.

[Artem]

It's an interesting theory, Kair, but as I've said before half the town are lurking so I don't think it will help us narrow down the possibilities. In fact, that may have been the whole point of killing of the vocal players: for the remaining scum to blend in better.

But even then, I don't know if I agree with the motivation behind the NKs. The first kill makes sense: remove an experienced player. The second kill I actually view as removing one of the more townie-looking players. It's obvious that scum didn't go after you for the fear of getting blocked by the doc. Fenchurch must have been seen as the second most-townie. (In fact, I'm now kicking myself for saying that I've always got good townie vibes from Fenchurch in my last post of D2, since I likely tipped scum off about who I view as townie.)

[Artem]

I personally am in favor of thegeckoj's lynch. Looking into day 1 and 2 votings and now that we have 3 confirmed townies thegeckoj stands up as the most scummiest to me. He didn't give any vote in both votings, he suggested that he might give a vote and then went lurking for rest of the day. Also he gave the L-1 vote on his first post in hope for quicklynch, he went in the easy way for him to argue his vote (tooo loooong fiiirst daaay), he really hasn't given any new points into the game (no active scum hunting), he didn't attack thinktank, didn't vote for thinktank, promised to give his opinion and didn't and now he is lurking.

I think that most of these arguments can be directed back at you. Your voting patterns are the exact symmetry of thegeckoj's. He voted for you, you voted for him during D1. Neither of you was on thinktank's wagon. Both of you have been missing during a major chunk of D2. Neither of you voted for lifeofpie.

One is thing you have on thegeckoj is the more active scum-hunting but you also have the scumminess of your predecessor Drifter over your head.

I think that the remaining scum is one of you two but I'm not quite sure which one of you. I've never gotten much of a read on thegeckoj, which of course might have been the whole point of his play. Your predecessor, on the other hand, has been pretty scummy but you're doing a good job of appearing townie.

[Artem]

... but... doesn't really matter since thegeckoj is the only person left...

Can you please clarify what you mean by this?

[Artem]

@Petunho: Ok, so you agree that you are guilty of some of the same things that you are accusing thegeckoj of. You, however, don't address the question of why you using them against thegeckoj doesn't make you look hypocritical.

Good thing that you wasn't in the game that time, we would be down

at least

one more townie then.

I may be reading between the lines too hard here but what does "at least" one more townie mean?

Petunho and thegeckoj are also at the top of my list, but I think I will hold off on voting until thegeckoj (or his replacement) have checked in.

[Artem]

. . . All of you are lurking. Every single one.

Yea, this game has been moving at a snail pace. Other games have started and finished already. I admit that I've kinda lost interest as most of the game has been just sitting around and waiting for replacements/posts from other players.

But we're almost done. And speaking of which....

I think that, assuming a mislynch today, Kair is more or less guaranteed a place in the endgame, because based on the last night's kill, it appears that the remaining mafia is wary of a doc protection. And because of that, I think that you, Kair, should be careful naming who you would like to lynch tomorrow if today's lynch flips town. Otherwise, you're telling the mafia exactly who should be kept alive.

Hopefully, this is a moot point and we're right: one of thegeckoj or Petunho is scum. But on the off-chance it's RandomGem or me (I'm not scum, but from your point of view, you don't know that and should consider it), you've just told us what the optimal setup for the end-game will be.

The wariness of a doc protect also means that there's a good chance we have at least one power role (see RG's numbers above) and that we (as in whoever remains alive in the endgame) should be careful about claims in the endgame (again, assuming a mislynch today).

Just thinking ahead.

[Artem]

You do realize that you are doing exactly what you are warning me against right? By saying that I will likely survive until endgame and thus shutting me up, there is a higher chance of the doc trying to protect someone else in order to actually block the kill or of the scum risking trying to kill me anyway just in case.

I don't follow.

I'm saying that you shouldn't help scum choose their night kills. Where are you getting the "shutting up" thing from? And how exactly did I just do the same thing, i.e. help scum decide who to kill tonight? They may or may not try killing you tonight regardless of my advice.

[Artem]

And I should say that the doc (if we have one) should always protect a confirmed townie and not try to play a hero.

[Artem]

Nevermind. If I survive then it doesn't matter who anyone else is suspicious of, since both of the surviving unconfirmed players will vote each other automatically.

...and that's exactly why you shouldn't tell us who you're going to lynch tomorrow if today's lynch flips town.

[Artem]

In my experience, players that promise content but don't deliver it are likely scum (see, e.g., thinktank). Here's another example, where I nailed scum in endgame based on non-delivered promises of content:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8989

@thegeckoj: If you don't post by Kair's return, I will hammer.

[Artem]

Vote: thegeckoj

[Artem]

So, I think we've been right about Drifter from the start. Somehow, I let myself get convinced by Petunho's play that he was town.

Looking back, when Drifter was at L-1, thinktank was still not voting. It seems that it would be a good time to drop a hammer on a townie, and then WIFOM your way out on day 2 (thinktank had no problem with lurking, so I don't think he would have a problem dropping a hammer on an innocent either). thinktank was probably not voting because he didn't want to bus his partner.

When Petunho joined in, he largely ignored thinktank and, when the wagon against thinktank started to pick up steam, returned the favor by staying off it.

Additionally, he was quite set up to vote for lifeofpie at the end of Day 1 (post 424), yet stayed off his wagon on Day 2. This essentially amounts to "Go ahead town, lynch lifeofpie, but I'm not going to get my hands dirty".

He then accused thegeckoj of certain voting patterns during Day 3 (post 504), which Petunho is guilty of himself.

All that said, I'm somewhere between 75% to 80% convinced that Petunho is the last mafia. Obviously, no quick voting during endgame.

[Artem]

Artem you seem to have quite a good case build up against me in the beginning with. You were the first one to post in the last day. Puts me wondering that you have really time to figure the case against me properly, might you happen to know all last night that I'll be in the last three, might you? And see who could be the easiest catch for this day?

Are you accusing me of spending the in-game night to conjure up a case against you because I knew you would be in the remaining three? My first post this day is almost 24 hours after the game was opened back up. That's plenty of time to analyze the remaining players. (In reality, I didn't check this game until I saw Kairyuu was the last poster in my "watched threads" list. When I checked the game, I was expecting to see him among the living.)

A word from thinktank behind the grave:

The Petunho/geckoj wagons are far more viable than mine.

This was just after ShadowLurker voted for him. Why would thinktank divert the suspicion on his fellow scumbuddy in this situation?

Ok, I'll give you this. It's actually a good point. If you're scum, then this shows that thinktank was pro-bussing his partner, which means that he would have voted for his buddy. But he didn't. Contradiction.

But then again, it could be a form of distancing and including thegeckoj as another option would give him a way out of bussing. He's done it here also:

Looking back at Drifter's statements. Shadowlurker seems to be on the money. A drifter lynch would definitely be a possibility.

On Artem, I am also agree with Shadowlurker. That last Artem post wreaks of suspicion.

If you're his buddy, then he's both distancing himself from you (your predecessor) and providing himself with a way out of bussing by throwing me into the mix.

Additionally, he was quite set up to vote for lifeofpie at the end of Day 1 (post 424), yet stayed off his wagon on Day 2. This essentially amounts to "Go ahead town, lynch lifeofpie, but I'm not going to get my hands dirty".

Noup, I knew somebody would try this agains me so that's why I posted this after Kairyuu gave his own deadline for the lynch:

If Lifeofpie doesn't claim by tomorrow at 8pm EST (GMT-5) then my next post will contain the hammer. I'd be posting more, but I'm bogged down with homework and I have my college applications due quite soon. I can still keep up pretty easily now though (I died in both of my other games yesterday).

I agree. I myself was hoping that thegeckoj would had given his word and given his opinion about the situation, but this looks a lost case. He continues to drift along. If there comes nothing radical from lifeofpie I'm 100% with the lynch.

But why would expect somebody to use lifeofpie's lynch against you, unless you knew he was going to flip town? Basically, you're telling me that you're scum who anticipated that somebody might use the "don't want to get hands dirty" argument against you, so you made the above post to refere to later.

I'm still very suspicious of you, Petunho, but I should be a good townie and not tunnel-vision.

Re-reading RandomGem. Questions will follow.

[Artem]

One more thing to note as I'm working my way through the re-read of RandomGem: he

did

at one point put Drifter at L-1. He immediately unvoted when the replacement came in, but your quote of a votecount in the post above

Vote Count as of Post 261

Drifter (4): lifeofpie, ShadowLurker, Artem, thegeckoj
thinktank (1): Fenchurch
Fenchurch (1): Chapter 5
lifeofpie (1): Drifter


Not voting (2) thinktank, RandomGem

only paints part of the picture. I'm not yet sure if that makes him (or you for that matter) any more or less scummy. It seems to me that if you were town and RandomGem was scum, then at least one of the two scums would have hammered. Especially considering that Fenchurch wasn't keen on the Drifter lynch at the time and C5 was nowhere to be found. But then again, RandomGem did explicitly state (in post 248, which is before the votecount) that he's willing to hammer Drifter so maybe he would have. (After all, he did put Drifter back at L-1 after ShadowLurker unvoted). I think that if RandomGem is scum, then neither scum hammered Drifter because we were waiting for a Drifter replacement and a hammer would have been seen too scummy.

EDIT: Done with the re-read

Overall RandomGem's play is a null tell to me. He doesn't do very much scum-hunting throughout the game and his voting during Day 1 is all over the place, at times even hypocritical (see below). Could be a townie unsure of his position, could be a scum looking for opportunities. A few things caught my attention (in addition to the things mentioned by Petunho):

1. Constantly asks who the ICs are. Seeing that the first night kill was an IC, this is a tiny red flag for me.
2. thinktank's post about RandomGem's self-vote reads like IC scum coaching a newbie scum:

You can usually VOTE: unless the rules of the game or the specific mod prohibits it. I've seen it done and its very annoying and anti-town.

3. Accuses thegeckoj of putting Drifter at L-1, something RandomGem has done himself.

4. Day 2 shows RandomGem

very

focused on lifeofpie, which is in stark contrast to his Day 1 play where voting was all over the place. Why?

After the re-read I'm still more suspicious of Petunho, but it's definitely not as clear-cut as I thought it would be.

Looking forward to hearing from RandomGem.

[Artem]

Did RandomGem pick up his prod?

Not yet. If he doesn't by tomorrow morning I'll go looking for a replacement. Grrrr.

Currently it feels like he's watching me and you (Petunho) cast suspicion back and forth, while hanging back himself? If he was town, what would be the benefit of lurking in the endgame?

FoS: RandomGem

[Artem]

Let's get some more discussion going while we wait for the replacement:

Hmm, this on the other hand disables my accusation that scum would have let me alive for easy lynch...

Indeed, because it sounds like you've spent just as much time thinking about the night kill as I did about your case.

If Drifter flips town, I think that there's a good chance that at least one mafia was on his bandwagon.

You said this when the situation was this:

Drifter (4): lifeofpie, ShadowLurker, Artem, thegeckoj

And who is left ; )

This is not a good accusation, because:
1) You're assuming that Drifter would have flipped town, which by itself counters all of the arguments that I've presented against you;
2) To get a cardflip for Drifter, another person would have had to join the bandwagon, and as we have already established that would have been either thinktank or RandomGem. Yes, the difference is that I was on the wagon at the time and RandomGem wasn't, but then again, Drifter didn't cardflip town either, so see 1)

Also, a little bit of WIFOM: why would I draw attention to myself if I was scum on a townie wagon?

You still haven't answered this:

But why would [you] expect somebody to use lifeofpie's lynch against you, unless you knew he was going to flip town? Basically, you're telling me that you're scum who anticipated that somebody might use the "don't want to get hands dirty" argument against you, so you made the above post to refere to later.

Also,

Gonna analyse Artem tomorrow.

Promising content without providing it is a scummy thing to do in my book. (Of course, after lynching thegeckoj based on that, I'm a little wary of this argument, but that just means that townies shouldn't do that, even just because it leaves the town with less information.)

[Artem]

If Petunho's statement about the roadtrip is true, I think we'd have to be done by January 4th.

[Artem]

Vote Petunho

[Artem]

Casey, are you somebody's alt?

[Artem]

Good game, all.

For the most part, it was actually smooth sailing. Everybody did a good job posting of who they find suspicious, so all I had to do was NK those that didn't agree with the "popular opinion" and go with the flow during the day.

The biggest concern was of course the roles. As a roleblocker I knew I was either facing both the cop and the doc or neither. Thegeckoj had more cop tells than anybody else (things like impatience during day 1), so I blocked him the first two nights. Drifter soft-claimed vanilla on Day 1. Then when it was down to the five of us, Kairyuu suggested for the cop and the doc to come out under certain conditions. This told me that Kair himself is not a power role. So, at that point I knew that either thegeckoj + RandomGem were the roles or there were no roles. When thegeckoj flipped vanilla, I came to the conclusion that it was the latter and NK'd Kair. Kair was right: if he was left alive for the endgame, the other two players would auto-vote each other and I didn't want the victory chance to lay in the hands of one player (especially if it wasn't me ). Both Petunho and RG had enough suspicion that I thought I would have a better chance in the endgame if the two were left alive.

As much as I hate playing a mafia role, I actually enjoyed the game quite a bit. Thank you all for playing.

[Artem]

Artem I'm curious to know, with your power-role guessing, could you tell that I was not a power-role before you killed me?

I had you pegged as a vanilla townie, so I would have been surprised if you flipped as a power-role.