Newbie 1381 Oakhaven is Overrun Game Over

[talah]

Herro there replacements (:

Why herro

Happy to replace in, nice to meet you all. At work atm but read through most of this earlier today waiting for a sub conf.; will review this arvo.

For now,
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Greywing

Some good analysis coming from GW, maybe a bit

too

good? I wonder if he's missed out on tentatively reading anyone yet?

PS - @any IC - how does the preview function work? I can't seem to see the end-formatting of my 'prospective' posts

[talah]

VOTE: Greywing

Some good analysis coming from GW, maybe a bit

too

good? I wonder if he's missed out on tentatively reading anyone yet?

Excuse me, WHAT? I have no idea what this is suppose to mean or how its scummy. Like either you are working on some higher level thinking or this just makes no sense.

HA! Indeed, I think I was a bit hasty with my faux-RVS on Greywing. Looking back over the thread I can see he actually questioned the basis of a vote from Thane on Luigi (which is now me), so that's a major point in his favour, soft as the defence was.

UNVOTE: Greywing

Mala, Mala, Mala. Thanks for being welcoming, but I think this is Freudian, despite (or perhaps because of) needing sleep, and your explanation doesn't make sense:

You already asked me this. I'm not, but

I don't want you to flip scum

looking for an easy target.

You've also placed the Finger of Suspicion (by stating as scum-read), on Luigi (now me).

Lastly, you've been LynchCounting:

Plus Luigi's vote puts Thane at L-2 and as I said it looks like an opportunist jump.

I don't know that Town would bother - it feels a bit wrong to me either way.

VOTE: Malakittens

PS. Preview's working now; must have been technical difficulties.

[talah]

Apologies, EBWODP - quote tags wrong.

Jmo's vote looked like a pressure vote. It didn't bother me, but Luigi's vote did.

Plus

Luigi's vote puts Thane at L-2

and as I said it looks like an opportunist jump.

[talah]

So really.. timezones notwithstanding.. I need to triple-post for a reaction?

Let's just win the 'quickest knewb game' award by lynching Mala and Thane in quick succession.

(caveat -

@Mala

, you said you were V/LA for a couple of days so I'm prepared to wait for a non-sleep-deprived explanation, if you have one.
)

@Thane

, can you explain please why you think Mala would defend your position; in theory if you are Town. You also promised thread activity in Post 62, which hasn't eventuated yet. Here's your chance.

[talah]

I replaced 'Luigilewis889'.

[talah]

So also mothrax, in saying that you're not seeing the Mala case, does that mean that you *do* actually see a case for Thane?

[talah]

Not particularly no.

Grey is my top scumread ATM, but I need to reread the last couple of pages. I didn't like luigi and your case on mala seems reaching.

Not sure about Greywing. Honeybee seems alright at this stage too.

As I was looking through earlier to get some opinions I found myself with a +1 or 2 scummy on Luigi... and then realised I'd subbed in for same

So TBH my arguments regarding Mala / Thane voting him seem to have been probably more null than anything. I'd really like to quiz Mala on her idea that she wanted to prevent a 'scumflip', however. Even if it does seem a reach, the answer might be important. If (s?)he's V/LA at the moment I may need to focus elsewhere and ask again later.

Just asking, and not saying in this case it's relevant, but can V/LA at times be used as a tool to avoid questions?

[talah]

Wait, you're voting me because I'm caring about your prior slot putting someone at L-2?

I'm not sure what type of response you are expecting from me in regards to this. I could suggest you meta me regarding this, but it's your call. I don't like early L-1/L-2 wagons because there's not much information to go off in-case of a quick lynch. If there's a flip (regardless of alignment) due to interactions with everyone it brings me one step closer to figuring out the scum from town members.

Well, no, I'm not voting for you to be lynched because of

your vote

on the previous slot exactly. I only know that the previous slot is now my slot, which is Town (and which Scum would know, and therefore be a target of). However, Luigi was abrasive so that's a very very weak tell for me to criticise you voting against.

I also admit I'm reaching by questioning the 'don't want you to flip scum' quote itself, but the answer was incoherent, if you don't mind me saying (which I'm sure you shouldn't):

I'm not, but I don't want you to flip scum looking for an easy target.

Meaning.. If he ends up flipping scum and I didn't push hard enough - ill be annoyed at myself.

So it's kinda like I think he could be scum going after an easy target and I don't want to not push and allow him to slide straight by incase he's actually scum.

I think I need sleep

Regarding lynch-vote-counting, it's not so much that my predecessor placed a vote which you then disliked. More the fact that a vote post had not been recently submitted by the mod and you were able to quote it immediately without saying 'I checked back on the vote count and.. Thane is L-2'. I would imagine that this might be something that a mafia role would be more aware of in post-RVS Day 1, and I hadn't thought about it except slightly and certainly not to cite in-thread. But then again, I subbed in and might be skewed... so looking forward to analysis on my own contributions.

[talah]

When I go V/LA it's not faked.

Thanks, I didn't want that to be taken personally by you but thanks for clarifying anyway. Thanks also for mentioning you *have* seen it used elsewhere, cuz I suspect I have too.

I never said I wanted to 'prevent' a scum flip. I am very paranoid that JMO's vote on Thane is just sitting there. I don't feel that he's hunting anyone else and that his vote is just sitting on Thane. If JMO happens to flip scum and I didn't push *this* case hard enough - I'll be pissed off because I let him slide by halfway unnoticed.

Fair enough I reckon. I have noted you've been a bit paranoid earlier so I hope you'll be happy enough to answer any questions later. Is your vote on JMO right now? Last votecount I can see he doesn't have any. Maybe he needs to splains hisself.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: jmo16mla

[talah]

Oh-ho, we have some fire!

@Fropome - good analysis. I pressured Mala because of some bad logic and other things earlier, happy to expand after work if you like. I'll also respond to some of the implicit questions in your last post.

@JMO - I am voting you because, having questioned Mala and getting a reasonable response, I too am interested to know why you've parked your vote on Thane and given only one-liners back. You seem to be doing a lot of 'answer a question with a question' right now.

A don't know what the amished tell is, but I have read a thread in which a character by that name played. This is my first game of Mafia. Also I'm a dude, but meh.

[talah]

No, I didn't miss a thing. I think it's a weak reason to say that not using your vote is anti-town, and then park a vote and not use it when more information comes to light.

Why, for example, haven't you voted for me? Actually, scratch that. I'm more interested in your forthcoming responses to Fropome's questions.

[talah]

'Kay jmo, this doesn't seem to be getting very far. And I find it difficult to read you.

UNVOTE:

Fropome, I like your moxy. But your read of me as scum is absolutely off. Can I ask if you have any previous games I might check out?

I get the impression that I'm somewhat muddying the waters and not playing 'optimally' by placing vote-for-the-reaction-votes, so more straightforward questions and less combative, perhaps. Regarding the 'amished tell', I'd been going through the thread and noting down each player's behaviour post-by-post. I started at page 1 where everyone seemed to be kicking into Luig for his much-maligned 'you replaced someone derp suspicious lol' vote (his very first post, #14). After that he started to get defensive at the cross-examination and I was noting that down prior to realising I didn't need to.

May have to re-think that system

@Honey bee:

what is your read on mothrax?

[talah]

mothrax, likewise, do you have any other scumreads apart from Greywing?

The cast:

• mothrax - the soft-spoken yet self-assured somewhat-inquisitor
  
• Honey Bee - the opinionated inquisitor who's happy to dispense advice
  
• jmo16mla - the stone-skinned questioner.. and questioner
  
• Fropone - the sharp-edged and no bullshit whip with a bad eye for scum
  
• Malakittens - the common-sense and natural emote
  
• Greywing - the '....' scum-reading questioner who finally got an answer out of Tybalt
  
• Tybalt - the listmaker, who needs reasons when you have a list
  
• ThaneAravan - the quotemaster who finally voted.. in retaliation

Regarding Grey, in ISO his posts seem mostly about analysing situational logic and asking reactive questions. He also votes Luigi (me) in post #77:

@Tybalt: I'm still waiting for an answer to this:

@Tybalt: Is there anything in particular that is giving you Town reads on Moth and Mala?

There's also been a ridiculous lack of analysis from Luigi so far. There was his well publicised RVS post, and he's only followed it up with posts complaining about people discussing him. I still believe that his RVS vote was intended as a joke, but the lack of content since then makes me think that he's trying to fly under the radar. Mala's looking more Town to me now after a re-read.

UNVOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Luigilewis889

..and the very next time he posts (#99) he is criticising ThaneAravan for his rationale in voting exactly the same way. That's hmm.. well I don't actually find that scummy, just dissonant. But the fact that it's his only real analysis, I wonder if Grey isn't trying to avoid giving out opinions of his own.

VOTE: Greywing

Don't we have a deadline looming?

@RachMarie-Mayor-Mod

- are we able to have a votecount tally and timer please?

Was going to do it last night but was too tired and crashed instead. VC coming up....Rach

[talah]

Fropome, how would you react on Day 2, if you led the charge for a mislynch on Day 1 with a strong but incorrect read?

[talah]

Honestly, I'm swimming a bit and grasping at straws. I really would like to find other town and vote with them but it's not a strong-opinion proposition for me. More of an either-or, eg if HB and mothrax and jmo all want to lynch, they're probably likely to be right and I'm happy with that. I feel like you, Fro, jmo, mothrax and mala might be town but I'm unsure of this and have no real clue with the others. My vote is back on Greywing because he seemed to be asking for more information than he was giving, Thane and Tybalt seem to be lurking, and I've already made lame attempts to pump Mala and jmo for info. I'm also terrified that the lynch train is already on me but don't want to be anti-town by accepting my fate or going stupid about it.

Sorry bout the triple posting. Just enthusiastic and GMT+10. I thought the DL was in 2-3 days per the first post, added posting date to timer.

[talah]

Tybalt! Dear tybalt:

This is the honest answer to a question:

Honestly, I'm swimming a bit and grasping at straws. I really would like to find other town and vote with them but it's not a strong-opinion proposition for me. More of an either-or, eg if HB and mothrax and jmo all want to lynch, they're probably likely to be right and I'm happy with that. I feel like you, Fro, jmo, mothrax and mala might be town but I'm unsure of this and have no real clue with the others. My vote is back on Greywing because he seemed to be asking for more information than he was giving, Thane and Tybalt seem to be lurking, and I've already made lame attempts to pump Mala and jmo for info. I'm also terrified that the lynch train is already on me but don't want to be anti-town by accepting my fate or going stupid about it.

This is an apology for triple posting:

Sorry bout the triple posting. Just enthusiastic and GMT+10. I thought the DL was in 2-3 days per the first post, added posting date to timer.

This might be seen as justification to jump on a wagon later:

This post really has absolutely no defense. It's just apology.

And

that

was a defence.
tybalt: I want to know what you think of jmo, actually, and not because of any subtext but because he needs some attention. Lives are at stake.

@Honeybee: Thank you, strong town read. Unafraid to question and not worried about being seen as coaching.

@jmo: You now have outstanding questions from several people. Pull yourself together man!

@greywing: I'm accusing you to prompt you to make some reads. You have been a good questioner. But if I'm scum, there's one left. Who's that?

@Fro: Goodwork, keep it up. I agree with a good chunk of your analysis (very much including your 'this is lol') and the fact you're not afraid to state opinions. Semi-strong town-read. Look elsewhere.

[talah]

Anyway, because I'm not great at not saying things I think, and because I think RVS is overblown and referred back to, and because also, I want to prove my slot is town:

Right, so next time, make it seem sillier. Got it. Maybe I'll put it in pink.

Anyway, onwards!

At that early stage this is totally down the line. And while I agree +1 -1 tracking is going to give you a lot of fuzz on Luigi I think actually, he was straight down the line and not duplicitous about anything. I simply note that because, I think if you are sane, it tells you a lot about the slot. There's generally a lot of crazytown about RVS or perceived RVS and that is a challenge. But I challenge anyone to find anything actually and seriously wrong with Luigi's statements. Defensive, yes. Reasonable? Want to say no just to move things ahead? Think about it.

And that is my from now on two-post nightly update.

ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT TO YOU FOR FROCK'S SAKE

[talah]

This game is trickier than it seems from the outside, huh.

JMO, why have you gone AWOL? Playing in other games by the looks but nothing to say here. I'm confused by delineation between IC and player. You actually give good responses to total noob questions but for some reason are otherwise hiding behind question question question. Feels like you've posted just one three line sentence and have been re-quoting it as an answer to everything.

mothrax, talah is an easy target. So you've got Grey and you've got me down as suspicious. At least one of these is wrong. Who else is suspicious? Why should I trust you?

Mala, my attempt to do 'something' to 'help the game' was a bad play and unsportsmanlike.

Bah.
Humbug.

I'm going to claim as newb-town at this point. And now I'm going to find the wiki pages on mafia theory.

[talah]

Fine, but there's been a lot of comments since you last posted and you really don't have a position yet.

Is that real when you say about using 'is this person posting' 'they're not posting here but they're posting elsewhere' being modkill material? If so I did not know that.

JMO, I so, so want you to be town. I really liked your tack in provoking people by questioning them. Irritating them in that way. I thought it was clever and useful. But you're acting like the ashamed celebrity of the thread where you should be the superstar. Kick it up a notch, please. PLEEEAAASSSEEE!!! ((c) Charlton Heston)

[talah]

UNVOTE: Grey
VOTE: Thane

Policy

[talah]

Yeah well I dunno. Maybe because I've been aggressive and irrational, have painted people as scum when I had no real evidence to back it up, have been fishing for reactions.

Are you and Honeybee BFFs yet? Do we have a crew? I'll state now that I like Frobey, don't think he was holding anything back. You're not going to like what I think about Grey.

Five reasons? Because I'm a noob, because I wasn't afraid to throw my vote around, because I can change my mind, because I post regularly, because I defend myself.

[talah]

UNVOTE: Thane

Ninja'd and policy no longer stands.

[talah]

Dear Grey,

So what changed between this post, where you liked my analysis:

HA! Indeed, I think I was a bit hasty with my faux-RVS on Greywing.

And this post, where all of a sudden, it makes me scummy:

Regarding Grey, in ISO his posts seem mostly about analysing situational logic and asking reactive questions.

First post was in the spirit of a random vote. Changed my mind when I read through the entire thread and you'd been participating and asking questions. Later ISO'd you (not the best analytical tool but it has its uses), and saw that you hadn't done much analysis of your own (except for the couple of sentences which didn't end in a question mark which were about

what

people had done, and not

why

). More observations than analysis. Asking questions is great imo, but demanding analysis from someone (or citing lack thereof as a reason to vote) and failing to provide this yourself is inconsistent with a good reason to vote.

The trending lack of analysis continues with your latest vote. You cite two reasons, the first finds its roots here:

@Tybalt: I'm still waiting for an answer to this:
There's also been a ridiculous lack of analysis from Luigi so far. There was his well publicised RVS post, and he's only followed it up with posts complaining about people discussing him. I still believe that his RVS vote was intended as a joke, but the lack of content since then makes me think that he's trying to fly under the radar. Mala's looking more Town to me now after a re-read.

Lack of analysis

and

lack of

content

you originally said.

-Talah has come in, and thrown his vote on about half the playerlist in an attempt to make something stick.

True enough, but still an observation. So you're voting me really because... I've made bad analysis? Subterfuge? Because I irritate you?

Care to state an opinion on JMO?

[talah]

The Room With No Windows

A modern day parable

Starring: Mafia Goon & Mafia Godfather

Scene opens. Two men sitting at a table in a dank and stink-filled cellar. Cigars and ashtrays. The makings of a poker game scattered among other miscellanous detritus littering floor and table. A conversation takes place.

• Goon

  :
  Hi Greywind! Thanks for subbing in.
  
  Godfather

  :
  Hi! No worries, glad we got time to talk before the game started up what's the strategy?
  
  Goon

  :
  I have a few ideas about strategy. Ask heaps of questions. Asking questions is pro-town play and usually doesn't stand up to scrutiny. As long as you throw a few accusations in, too.
  
  Godfather

  :
  Cool, well I've played a couple scum games too but not as many as you I guess as IC Shall we set up an early vote on each other? Maybe I vote for no reason, and you vote me straight after or something...
  
  Goon

  :
  Great idea! I could say I was trying to set a good example by calling you on it. I'll say "As I said, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me." But it has to be *exactly* this sentence. Then you vote that person and I'll vote you straight back.
  
  Godfather

  :
  Won't that seem suspicious?
  
  Goon

  :
  Nah, it'll motivate people to challenge you, but at that stage it'll still be RVS. Say you made the vote deliberately to get us out of RVS. I'll throw some suspicion on you early, you explain your vote (this early any semi-logical explanation will suffice), and I'll move on.
  
  Godfather

  :
  We'd have to set up a time when we can both be on for that to work... Sunday evening? I'll probably be on about 6 - 8 forum time
  
  Goon

  :
  That works. When I get the post alert I'll jump straight in. I'm pretty active in the community you know
  
  Godfather

  :
  What else? How do you pick the best person to accuse? What happens if they start not looking scummy?
  
  Goon

  :
  You could pick someone who gets defensive? That's usually something you can stick with or come back to. Besides I doubt the thread will be particularly active since it's a newbie game. They're usually most active in the first couple of days and then they die down as people replace out.
  
  Goon

  :
  If your target doesn't look scummy anymore, reluctantly change your vote close to deadline but stick with your initial pick for D2 / D3 lynch.
  
  Godfather

  :
  Okay, slowing the pace and 'blending in' suits me anyway, I usually play these games pretty casually.
  
  Goon

  :
  If I'm feeling like we need to bus close to deadline I'll throw in a few AtE's to make it easier for you. Man it sucks that my first game as IC is scum : P
  
  Godfather

  :
  We'll get them! Stupid Town. Anything else?
  
  Goon

  :
  Watch out for mothrax and Mala. They're pretty cluey. I haven't played with the others but will meta them later today.
  
  Goon

  :
  And I'll deliberately misspell your name call you 'grey wing'
  
  Godfather

  :
  Heheh, that'll be funny as frock
  
  Goon

  :
  It should be fine if we stick to the plan. Remember: ask a lot of questions and stick to your guns.
  
  Godfather

  :
  Sounds good.
  
  Goon

  :
  Grey, sounds good.

Scene fades to black.

[talah]

@Rach-Mayor-Mod: ThaneArvan has requested replacement (#171 above). Also please Prod Fropome.

[talah]

Your wish is granted.

VOTE: Grey

[talah]

As soon as either of you answer the questions put to you, I'm happy to answer more questions from either of you.

[talah]

JMO,

Gah, THAT statement is highly ambiguous. At least use Sarcastica or Super Sarial font to convey tone (credit to Arj Barker), so it doesn't look like you're trying to set up an out.

I clicked through a bit of the meta you have linked in your signature. So if you have this playstyle in neither your scum games nor town games, what's THAT mean? You usually have more statements to make in both by the look. It may be wrong but it's the impression I get (believe me, interesting as I find you I'm not clicking through every single one).

Fun facts:

JMO total Scum reads: 1, (ThaneArvan, in RVS)
JMO total Town reads: 0, (granted not important as said he doesn't town read, playstyle)
Total reads 1,

total reasons for reads 1

(submitted in post #70, reason is generalised behaviour of new-scum)

Greywing total Scum reads: 3, (Mala, in RVS; Luigi, in RVS; talah, mothrax)
Greywing total Town reads: 3, (Honey bee, Malakittens, Fropome)
Total reads 6,

total reasons for reads 3

(Luigi, reason is flying under the radar in RVS; talah, using his vote to scumhunt; mothrax, 'gut feel' immediately after she flagged JMO as suspicious)

None of these reasons look legitimate or defensible to me.

JMO Unanswered questions: Several from various people. I'm not doing the work for you bub but at least a couple asking what you think of *me*, and I am super-uber interested in what you think of Grey right now. That's a question too. Answer it.

Grey Unanswered questions: I *think* you've only got the request for an opinion on JMO from me right now. There might be others outstanding but I'm not your mother - just do your homework. Answer my question please.

TL; DR:

Below is a script for your next post. It'll save you scrolling up three inches to rephrase my statements into questions. Obviously, break it into a few posts to cover your 'contribution' and keep your total post stats up.

Why is the statement ambiguous? What is Sarcastica font? I'm wondering if the

[insert tell about referencing comedians]

tell is in effect here.

Why does it what says who about me if I started using a certain playstyle recently mean? Why should I make more statements? Why would you get that impression? Why would you find me interesting? Are you coming on to me? Not sure what you're getting at here.

As I said, it's best we don't make associative reads until someone is lynched.

Why would you think that Grey Wand's reasons are indefensible?

[Insert another statement which blurs the line between IC and player regarding what we "do" or "don't" usually do, while failing to answer questions]

Thanks for the script talah, now I can do what I *really* want to do with my day.

(yep that's Arj again)

[talah]

Greywing, what's your opinion of JMO?

[talah]

I just don't get your reads reasons.

Everyone else who has given reads has been asked 'why' they're reading in that way. You seem content just to slap a read down without any reasoning. 'Could potentially be scum' is not the point. Why he could potentially be scum, is.

Why do you think JMO could potentially be scum, then?

[talah]

Welcome to new blood!

@mothrax:

Hi. You haven't been saying much lately. Input?

@tybalt:

Thoughts on the accusations levelled at you?

@HB:

I did mention at the time the reason for my town read on you, let me add another: you didn't try and tell me what I shouldn't be doing, as a noob, but rather provided feedback on what you perceived. Yours is a very good example of a playstyle and you're not afraid to provide information, and therefore not afraid you're going to trip yourself up later. That's a huge town read to me. Enough of an ego boost? (That last does not need to be answered, btw.)

Regarding tybalt, I think he's faxing his answers in but hasn't been particularly afraid to put himself on the line when he does come out with a statement or two. Also don't understand why he'd try to bus JMO.

Grey's reads (up to the point where you asked) are indefensible because 1) at the time he voted Luigi he actually had zero analysis and very little content of his own. He was voting someone else for something he was doing. 2) His read on me is based not on reasoning, but on a statement of fact without bothering to say why me throwing my vote around is a "bad thing". 3) The mothrax, and all other votes, either have 'gut feel' or simply no reasoning at all. That's unhelpful at best, scum-tactics at worst.

@JMO:

I voted Grey because I don't need any more convincing that you're Mafia. You can have it back in a bit by the looks.

@Grey:

JMO if anyone has reason to be indignant on some kind of personal level at recent posts by me. I'm not comfortable with reads based solely on gut feel. You should try to explain yourself better. I disagree with your immediate scum read on Wolf. He's putting himself out there at least and contradicted himself several times. This seems like an honest first read through.

@Mala:

What's your dilemma?

@Gen_Wolf:

I pursued the Mala case because I wanted information. It's no good gently placing a vote on someone to see how they'll react. This is the one case so far where I've felt slightly uncomfortable about being agressive. There are better ways.

You also took the 'Your wish is granted --> Vote' post well out of context. My vote is Grey's fair payment for repeatedly avoiding stating an opinion on JMO.

Also your scum vibe on me (apart from being wrong) almost exactly mimics Grey's rationale for voting me. You're basically voting Luigi. The problem with that is, Luigi's reasons are the only thing I can't possibly describe the truth of. Poison chalice much.

[talah]

Isoing Honeybee and Talah give me the same feels as my original read through did. Honeybee puts alot of pressure and analyzes into each and every one of her posts. Talah on the other hand, clearly has no idea what he is doing, and looking at the way he is posting, I find it very hard for him to be scum because if he was I feel like he would be making more of an effort to scumhunt instead of posting plays. He is town, but is a liability do to his lack of knowledge/skill. I am 90% sure that both are town.

Will do more later.

Zing. I know when to shut up. Oh no I don't.

Someone has to explain WIFOM properly to me sometime. I get the scenario, poisoner and poisonee, each with a cup of the poisoner's wine in front of them, poisonee's choice of which one to drink. Have seen it applied and explained in different ways to this however.

[talah]

Intent to L-2 JMO.

My parable was awesome. The theory derived from facts, not the other way round.

I can't think of any way a person would express they are less committed to a game, than having every single post they make, an obvious derivation of a post just slightly above. Who needs to read through everything and come to any conclusions about anything, at all. Why, ONLY TOWN.

I can't wait for the big reveal buddy.

UNVOTE:

[talah]

VOTE: JMO

Your intentions are extremely unclear. Everyone else has at least put themselves on the line.

[talah]

I fully expect you to claim a PR and that is no response to the accusations I've laid down.

[talah]

Why do you think?

[talah]

Fair enough.

[talah]

You'll note me not moving my vote.

[talah]

Found any yet?

[talah]

lolwut?

[talah]

mothrax, we need a medic here

[talah]

jaymo, you just need to open up and explain yourself. Sheesh.

[talah]

I don't actually give a shit if you're mafia, you know that, right?

[talah]

Deadline here is about 6 hours before the timer, as it'll be 4am on a work night.

[talah]

I'd like to do a more comprehensive catchup later tonight; moar objectivity. So the below are presto-imprezione.

Mala, it's simple: I'm the one that makes you laugh, Tybalt is the one who's piggybacking me. Now had you said Tybalt / Thane (Gen) I would agree with you, as I mixed those guys up a lot earlier, what with neither of them posting. My read on you is still town mostly for the unforced nature of your posts earlier (due for a review, so I'll take a look at this).

Mothrax *still* hasn't said anything, which makes it hard to question her/him if the current groupthink about him/her being town is incorrect. Objectively.
(can you give a hint to the correct pronoun please moth? if not it'll just be 'her' from now on in line with your avatar.)

Don't know what it was that caused Tybalt to change his vote with such apparent realisation. I didn't end up with the implied impression at all. HB, don't lose hope yet. Will take a look.

I will have a proper look at Hyper and Gen too. Gen, sorry for ignoring your posts before, will get back to them. Well maybe not the last one, as I think that was a bit derp what about opinions on others rather than just the current 'targets-dujour'?
Hyper, you're a riddle inside a paradox right now. Correct town read, but undermining credibility, and flagging me as a liability, therefore expendable? Will look into that a bit more, in the meantime have you managed to get any more insight into the other players on this dark stage yet?

Finally, 'JMO Investigates'. I can print the sign for the door if you like.
But hey, :goodjob:

Ahl be baaack

[talah]

Self-assessment:

Spoiler:

Going back and reading over everything (including some of the earlier things I posted, which are *cough* somewhat cringe-worthy, and some of which I've avoided reading when they've been re-quoted even), I noticed before that I've been using the word 'vote' at times when I've meant 'suspicion'. The two are almost interchangeable to me, don't know if you've noticed that.

I didn't mind my first post at all, still don't. RVS doesn't end at any specific point, or rather, the point at which it ends may vary due to opinion. I think in this game it ended with uoyeluri's post.

I come into this game thinking it's going to be fun, clever and witty, and a real mind-challenge, and that it's a bit of a sandbox where accusations can be laid down, and people will sometimes leverage Real Life as an excuse in ways which are either genuine or as a tool. That's my experience, having read through probably half a dozen games.

I am a reasonably quick learner, and in making playstyle mistakes I've been forced to go looking for information on how to better that, and importantly, have also adapted my role to become something useful. I'm still not out of the woods, but I'm enjoying this immensely. When it doesn't get too personal, that is, although I've been the main protagonist of this kind of play so I apologise for that where it's gone over the line.

I like applying pressure and questioning motives. Slot is not equal to person is not equal to slot. The person needs to be pressured. You cannot pressure a role PM. I find it very irritating when people think they can make a couple of blithe statements and then rest on their laurels and not contribute anymore. That may be less than objective.

Might I add, this whole game is double-think. You don't realise that until you start playing one.

Objective Self-Rating:

Prob-town but a bit of a bastard at times.

Of Mice and Hyperion

Fropome said something which struck me as an AH-HA! moment:

I like to try to find town and work with them. It makes it harder for scum when there are a group of town players with good reads on each other, working together.

The rest of the post is quite challenging to people which I identified with immediately.

Hyperion (subbing in for Fropome nee Uo) on the other hand...

Isoing Honeybee and Talah give me the same feels as my original read through did. Honeybee puts alot of pressure and analyzes into each and every one of her posts. Talah on the other hand, clearly has no idea what he is doing, and looking at the way he is posting, I find it very hard for him to be scum because if he was I feel like he would be making more of an effort to scumhunt instead of posting plays. He is town, but is a liability do to his lack of knowledge/skill. I am 90% sure that both are town.

Will do more later.

...picks the obv-town, the new-town gaining credibility, and Mala (his previous post) (also Mala haven't looked back yet so no classification) as town reads, then smashes the credibility of the new town (three times in four posts no less) while simultaneously trying to appear very sage and making a dubious 'analysis' of Gen's first post or two, which I disagree with immensely (agree/disagree isn't a bad thing on a first skim-through, at least it's input) and don't think was worth even saying.

Then he ups-and-leaves-like-someone-who-has-something-to-avoid.

Although I liked

Ted Dansen

Frobey, it was mainly subjective. Being identified correctly by Hyper also caused me to be quiet for a little while in smug satisfaction (also I wanted to leave others time to say stuff without spamming it up). But in the final analysis this leaves me with a scum lean on Hyperion.

Also No vote, no scum reads, promise of more analysis with three days to deadline has not yet eventuated. I wonder if he'll come back with a 'sorreh gaiz forgot bout teh gaim'?

The Dilemma of Malakittens

Subjectively, I need to give Mala an out. It was real shitty me saying this:

I have noted you've been a bit paranoid earlier so I hope you'll be happy enough to answer any questions later.

And despite the fact I've apologised several times for this play, it's going to be difficult for me to objectively criticise. I feel crummy about it. It won't stop me pointing things out, but if my arguments seem weak, that's the reason. And if my opinion is that she's town, it'll be a glowing review

The main problem objectively with Mala is that she's successfully avoided stating opinions (post-RVS) on anybody except for the most controversial protagonists of this haunted merry-go-round. Even conversationally she has not interacted with anyone but JMO, HB and ME.

Someone more objective should pursue this.

Faux-Greywing

I don't even need to review posts or ISO for Greywing. This whole exchange has been so subjective it's engraved on my consciousness. It doesn't mean I've changed my opinion. Maybe slightly. But not much.

Let me show my working:

First of all, Talah, stop the intentional misspelling of my name in an attempt to insult me. I've treated you with respect throughout this game, and I expect the same in return. Thank you.

This seems highly affected. The statement is, like I mentioned, 'Indignant' rather than defensive or even accurate. The misspelling was twice, no more no less. The first was a 'parable-quote' in which I'm quoting one of JMO's early posts. The second was a Jibe at JMO, effectively clarifying accusing him of faking typing 'grey wing' instead of 'Greywing', even though he'd managed to spell this correctly on a vote previously. That fizzled out a bit, but the question remains: Why would Greywing say this?

I can think of a few reasons.
He genuinely believes it, his statement just came across as affected.
He was trying to get a reaction out of me, despite the fact that I've reacted emotively to virtually nothing up to this point.
He was trying to prove he's town, and I just don't get it.
He wanted to generate some 'plausible inconsistency' by saying he got a laugh out of the play and then grumping up for no reason at a deliberate misspell not aimed at him.
He needed to say something and that was the first thing that sprang to mind.
...and every other explanation in the universe.

Despite anything else, he did respond to my calm questions. Needless to say, I was not satisfied with the responses. "Could potentially be scum" is a nothing, especially when it culminates in a null read upon further questioning. I'd like him to act more townie by answering more questions (and providing more input), and I question his motives and votes. That said, he looks a bit less scummy by virtue of honesty. My biggest criticism is that he's too self-assured about his votes and not saying much.

The quiet, um, achiever?

Mothrax has gone from being a very good player who directs focus in promising directions with very succinct statements, to someone who's not contributing and may have ulterior motives.

To be quite honest I saw her as a very good litmus test on other players to pursue (yes, I've read about appeal to authority and I take full responsibility for my own assessments). Her playstyle is *excellent*. I'd like more feedback and certainly a vote reassessment.

Werewolf art thou Tybalt?

Tybalt in his non-posting, previously, has actually seemed more 'distracted' to me than anything else.

Earlier he seemed happy to lay suspicion down on people for quick fire reasons, but then produced his list (which I criticised) and has since come back with some statements which are explanatory and somewhat hard to squirm out of if he is scum:

tybalt: I want to know what you think of jmo, actually, and not because of any subtext but because he needs some attention. Lives are at stake.

Here is my clear, unbiased opinion on JMO and I am not going to read any other people's opinions of JMO before I say this.

JMO, upon isolation, seems to be trying to withhold from saying anything provocative- trying to stay out of the spotlight if you will.
Has reservations on doing, well, anything.
Post #43 seems to be weird, and another attempt to continue to not provoke anyone. If anyone has played with JMO and knows he is like this every game then I will retract that.
Also #107, the reason for why JMO is voting ThaneArvan, seems sort of like what JMO is doing

Ok, wow. VOTE: JMO

ughhhah talah and jmo are town VOTE: greywing because of 165'
Honey bee I'm sorry for doing this to you but I will respond later I am so tired so stay tuned

pedit

I still am leaning town on Tybalt

you are voting me lololol?

And regarding this, what I really would like to see from Tybalt is the answer to the following questions:

What is it that caused you to change your vote away from JMO?

Why did you then vote Greywing?

What are your assessments of other players?

Unfortunately I can't give a better analysis than that. Although I'm semi-averse to voting him due to a basically null read, I just have to see better reasons for doing so. OTOH Because I want to see more information, I'm happy to vote him to get it.

The new smart kid in town

"Welcome to the Scumhunting Crew"

- Talah, to Gen_Wolf, Newb 1381, now

Apologies but I did a lot of my analysis steam on the above. I read through your contribution first of all, before writing anything else in this post, and have run low on more precise analytical puff. Take the full jar of jam instead. I am very comfortable with your posts.

Your analyses are well reasoned and you're happy to lay opinions down on anyone, and question anything. For a newcomer, you've come in with quite a bang, and made a great impression (objectively, not just because we've agreed on a couple of things). This is good. Thane seemed very time-poor and gracefully frocked off. You seem like town and at this stage I'm prepared to put some trust in you.

(That is your horoscope)

...and

this

is your question: Who's the next most scummy apart from JMO when he fake-claims?

[talah]

I'll even go one better:

VOTE: Tybalt

You never explained unvoting JMO at the time and you are tarring he and myself with the same brush. That's bewildering without an explanation and you backed down from HB's interrogation without any 'defence' but rather a few apologetic sentences and a 'Please don't put words in my mouth' statement which comes across as a non-statement. Something to say. I trust HB and a quite prepared to see you lynched for post-mortem analysis.

That puts you at L-2 Tybalt.

[talah]

Activity has been low so it is a really slow going game, especially considering deadline is so close. Will do another read through see if I pick up on anything but

we really just need people to post please.

+10 Billion.

[talah]

Kitty
Town. Puts alot of pressure in alot of different directions. I might maybe (but probably not due to my schedule) go looking for one of her scum games during night phase to see what she is like as scum, but for now I am still confident in my read of her.

Can you cite some of the pressure you believe Mala has been applying please?

Thanks for your input. And welcome back moth.

[talah]

Moth: gets people talking in deadtown. And amuses me.

[talah]

Thanks Hyper for Mala's analysis, that seems to make sense. But as far as JMO the obligation to teach is the least of my concerns. More to the point is that it is his reputation on the line.

[talah]

I think that was a couple votes off, since Tybalt and I changed votes at the last L-2.

VOTE: JMO

[talah]

Claim.

[talah]

Read the thread. Claim.

[talah]

More votes for jaymo please. Currently at L-2 by my count.

[talah]

Please check before voting.

[talah]

I'm pretty sure you're at L-2. I'm voting because of no scumhunting, no threadreading, which you'd know if you read the thread.

Why not just claim? Rather than drag it out?

[talah]

@tybalt: I was perhaps a bit unclear. What made you switch your vote away from JMO with such realisation that he was town? You had good arguments for him being scum prior to that and then suddenly drop it with no explanation. Please explain?
It would be good to get a reads post.

@gen: Actually, I was under the impression that people claimed at L-2 with intent to hammer up to L-1, to avoid scumbuddies from dropping the hammer and silencing the target. On reflection it's probably a non-issue in this type of game with only 2 Mafia. Additionally JMO himself posted that I should ask for a claim when I put him at L-2 prior to Tybalt removing his vote. Although I may have misunderstood that post.
Regarding flipping from JMO to Tybalt and back, that's exactly what I did, perhaps you missed the sequence of events and the relative weight of my arguments for each of them. I want JMO to claim because he's wasting everyone's time and until he does claim it's a big anti-focus sitting there staring at everyone. When he got off L-2 I decided Tybalt should have a chance to feel the heat. When Mothrax voted JMO I switched back because i want to hear his claim.
I disagree in this instance that asking JMO for a claim, early or not, is anti-town.

@HB: Yes I want to pressure Tybalt, but that pressure would have been quite weak and transparent, given the content of the previous post. JMO is my preferred lynch. Please someone put him at L-1.

[talah]

Surely you can see that everyone wondering whether or not you're town a couple of days before deadline, is bad for town. I'd think it would be up to you to do a better job of proving your authenticity if you were playing a town role.

mothrax I think I bungled badly and could have had a claim by now, if that's what happened with the L-1 before. He wasn't reading. Sorry.

[talah]

Welcome back Grey. Another bafflingly imprecise analysis.

[talah]

I'm guessing that's rhetoric. Your accusations don't make sense.

[talah]

Yep. In looking back I'm thinking he agreed the claim was necessary and provided the opportunity for it to happen.

[talah]

Have a think about it champ, I'll wait.

[talah]

Not a bit. What PR could he possibly credibly claim? A PR needs more information, not less, to know what night action to take. So he claims VT and we move on.

[talah]

Care to discuss anything else? Tybalt maybe?

[talah]

I'm going to have to play the mirrored impression card here. I'm not sure but he 'seems' genuine.

[talah]

How come you keep misspelling mothrax's name?

[talah]

I am confused as to why you would so meticulously interchange the spelling. Moth

R

ax -- mo

R

thax. Not exactly an easy typo.

Can't be for pressure or to antagonise moth, as you only started typoing it in post 274 after your 'trap' was already sprung.

You've breadcrumbed it twice for some reason:

Morthax

's vote was highly opportunistic. He had absolutely no insight on why I voted mala, yet he calle it a terrible reason. Everyone, where did I state a reason for my vote before

mothrax

's vote? Exactly. He tried to justify his vote on me hoping no one would notice his bad reasoning. Il continue my case tonight.

*fluff*

Now, as everyone sees,

Morthax

has no reason to vote me besides the fact that he is scum and tried to find a smooth way onto my wagon.

*fluff*

Mothrax

is scum. Vote him people. we have short time.

Sorry who are you implying your scumbuddy is again?

Are ya gonna answer this question anytime soon?

@Jmo: Since it looks like you're dying today, who would be your other choice as scum?

[talah]

How do you cut and paste quotes on your phone?

[talah]

Why do you want me to drop it?

[talah]

What kind of phone do you have?

[talah]

Um.. I just got an email notification of a PM from a player in this game. I haven't read it. Is that kosher?

[talah]

Yeh look I'll stop pushing but my vote's not changing. I can explain why I wanted to push this another time if it's needed.

@Rach: Can you please delete whatever PM just arrived in my User CP please? I'm not confident I can delete it without opening it by mistake.

[talah]

*sigh* Please vote.

Tech Tip: I work in IT and have two of the three major types of phone at my disposal to test (and very likely) refute the autocomplete theory.

Autocomplete just doesn't work in that way. You teach it a word and it autocompletes consistently, or you dismiss the autocomplete offering, type it correctly and it corrects like that afterward.

[talah]

Anyway slight straw man but just adding to the weight of my case. I'm not answering the question.

[talah]

*double sigh* (triple post soz)

The other thing the question does is freezes everybody in fear of asking anyone else a direct question, lest they imply that they are answering the question in a roundabout way.

It's a horribly anti-town question.

Let me break the ice: Tybalt where in sheat are the responses and reads you promised more than 24 hours ago? Do you intend to post more than once before deadline?

[talah]

Excuse me JMO?

What's your read on me ATM?

[talah]

I've made a pact with myself to address you politely from now on when I'm speaking with you directly. I don't know how much of the RL stuff you've brought into this is relevant to the game exactly, but FYI and honestly, ever since I saw your signature I've been wishing your father well.

It's not too much of a loaded question, I think we can reason this through. Am I scum, or town?

[talah]

(ohgawd, double-triple post, HB is going to be so pissed at me.)

@Rach-Mayor-Mod, may we please have an updated votecount? Please ignore my earlier request as I'll also ignore it. Are prods in order on a weekend for 24h+ delinquents? That's Gen_wolf, tybalt and Greywing, for the record

Thanks *cheesy grin*

[talah]

Mothrax and Mala both said you were grasping.

[talah]

Well, that is exactly my question to you because I don't think there's a safe answer and I think logically both prove that your arguments are false. Am I town or scum?

[talah]

Your question is 'who am I lynching tomorrow'?? Why would you want that information?

[talah]

Reads:
Town: Mala, Mothrax, Honey bee, Gen_wolf, Hyperion
Null: Tybalt,
Scum: JMO, Greywing

[talah]

Now can you please answer if I am scum or town?

[talah]

*cough* please answer? You seem to be inferring that I'm scum.

[talah]

I've already posted a shitload of times but I'm just trying to get this slow-boat of death moving. In answer to your questions, I wanted factual and objective proof that JMO is lying, and also the mothrax breadcrumbing thing was strange to me and WIFOM and I wanted to know. I go the impression Mala wanted me to drop it due to JMO RL considerations and so I did but the question afterward caused me to re-state and in fact give the reason, ie, I can test whether or not that's truth or lie. I think it's pointless and not needed to prove lynchability. Regarding wanting to know whether JMO thinks I'm town or scum, he loses either way. Either I'm scum and the 'tool of mothrax' which means mothrax dies tomorrow (which doesn't make sense) or I'm town and mothrax dies tomorrow. Best he could have said is 'I don't know'.
/ende

[talah]

So, JMO, I answered, you gonna take a stab?

[talah]

GAH! Let me rephrase for yet another triple-post.

JMO, I've answered both you and Gen and I would like to know whether you think I'm a town role or a scum role.

I'd also like feedback on Gen's questions because they seem valid.

[talah]

HB, allow me to implore - do you not want to see JMO's claim tonight? We leave ourselves with virtually nothing to go on unless it happens now. Mala earlier expressed that she's somewhat partial to a JMO lynch. The arguments he makes don't make sense. At this stage I don't even care what he claims, I just want some rational discussion with some meat. He's already soft-claimed conflicting roles. Please! A dead JMO helps town more than continued obfuscation tomorrow. Everyone else is answering questions rationally! He's not the tortured genius he makes out; he can't be. Even if you vote him me, gen and moth are on the line before you are.

Mala! Help a good decision, please! You too Mothrax (the dude).

[talah]

[talah]

I said, that both Mothrax and Mala had said you were grasping at straws. Gen called you out for the inconsistency of implying that one was scum and the other was not.

Can you please answer if you think I'm town or scum. It will make things much clearer for me.

[talah]

Is that truth or some kind of insane masterplan? I don't see how you could credit me being scum. I just haven't played that way.

Plus if you flip town, doesn't that guarantee Moth is tomorrow's lynch? Why would he put himself in that position? Nobody's going to forget the early call and it's common knowledge I'm a shithouse player.

[talah]

Let me interject some fluff here.

Judge Judy says 'If you tell the truth, you don't need a good memory'.

You don't want to be saying inaccurate or fallacious things about me in this role because I'm very, very good at explaining why I've said or done things.

And now it's time for me to go to bed. Nighty x

[talah]

Not sure. You could be scum pushing my lynch, you hopped right back on my wagon once it was started up.

Nope, actually I've been both running beside and helping to drive that wagon ever since I spotted the pointless questions way back when. I jumped off the wagon briefly to whack Tybalt with a stick.

I found the suspicious.

Good-o, so did several other people, which is why I explained myself as soon as I was asked about it.

If you were scum, I'd put you with mothrax by how it seemed to try to cover up my argument of moth scum with phone talk.

I explained this too. You stating that I had no basis for pursing what could possibly be proven as a bald-faced lie, whether it was a worthwhile line of questioning in your mind or not, does not make it a 'cover-up' simply because you say it.

Now, if you are Town, perhaps the mothrax-is-scum argument is a credible defence? But hang on, both Gen and mothrax are on your wagon, and they're both obv-scum:

Wait, he is that slots replacement? Hahaha! This is great. That slot is scum.

I'm not tunneling!?!?! I think he is scum. He needs to be lynched.

Morthax is scum.
Trust me on this one

VOTE: morthax

In that case, why can't you say whether I'm scum or not, the only other person on your wagon at that time? By your reasoning a process of elimination should say that I'm stoopid noob-town, if those two are def-scum and I'm whipping the oxen.

If you aren't scum with him, you probably aren't scum.

Which is to say, you're no longer sure about Gen? Why not say that? You were pretty sure before, but you didn't say why anyway.

Not sure. You could be scum pushing my lynch, you hopped right back on my wagon once it was started up. I found the suspicious. If you were scum, I'd put you with mothrax by how it seemed to try to cover up my argument of moth scum with phone talk.

If you aren't scum with him, you probably aren't scum.

Fallacious and inaccurate. Classic scum play. Nudging at doubts and misrepresenting events. Sorry JMO but I don't believe your defence is believable.

[talah]

Grey, why are you coaching JMO?

[talah]

@Jmo: Before someone hammers you, do you see Talah as the most likely partner for Mothrax then?

[talah]

@HB: Last try. I'm appealing to your sense of reason. Occam's Razor. If you identify the scum you don't need to go complicating things further if the facts fit the theory exactly, and if the theory was born of facts in the first place.
Tybalt has been so incautious and seemingly distracted I would say he thinks he can explain his way out of whatever he says (eg impulsive gut decisions). The others are fairly advanced players who have a certain cautiousness of playstyle anyway, but have been able to expand on their thinking when pressed.
I had a twilight post made up but won't bother (picking up on some of this cautiousness myself). Only a couple hours before I gotta hit the sack, so won't be around if there are fireworks later.

If for some reason I don't wake - GG

all

, and I'll be back to pester you later

[talah]

Mrrrrggrrrmmphhhh... 3 more days

Isn't he CUTE when he's confused?

At least I get to do a proper twilight post or something. I have an idea for that too...

Pact revoked btw. Safe braking distance in effect.

[talah]

O Baby Jaymo, you must be so sweeeeepy!

Go and take your nap, I'll be there soon to read you a story (and it will have YOU in it!)

@Hyper, you gave me a breakdown of Mala earlier when I asked; when you get a moment could you please point out in much the same way why you thought Grey's analysis was good? (Maybe paraphrasing that, gotta get to work). I'd like to have a rational discussion about it.

[talah]

AtE

[talah]

Point is, jaymo, if you want people to believe you're incompetent, I'm happy to go along with that.

[talah]

HB, look at the evidence. JMO's done nothing (recently) but act crazy and throw down AtE's and pretend he doesn't know what's happening. Tell me, objectively, is that pro-town play?

Sorry for the shortness of my response, I'll get back to the rest soon. Briefly regarding Tybalt, I think he's fallen for the hard emotional tactics too. Look at the context of where he placed his vote on grey, an the discussion between JMO and I that preceded it. I fell for it too, btw.

[talah]

He's actually quite a masterful player. But the veil has been lifted from my eyes. Quite an appropriate tack for the game theme, actually.

[talah]

Catching scum, isn't flailing hun. Don't be so butt hurt.

Mature? Trolling?

[talah]

It's a game of Mafia, not a Disney theme park.

[talah]

Keep flailing. Don't be so butt-hurt douchebag. Scum caught.

[talah]

AI HAIZ CAUGHT TEH SCUMZ IN MAI FIRSTEST GAIM!!!1!!!!111

[talah]

@Hyper: Regarding Grey, scratch that request, I should review it for myself. Maybe I can run a couple things past you later..

[talah]

I'm sorry, I'll catch up, but I'll be V/LA until tues. Sorry again.

/acknowledge
You know I sent a one-way PM to the mod asking if he was okay in RL after that outburst? What a piece of work huh try to see the humour in it if ya can.

[talah]

either you are working on some higher level thinking or this just makes no sense
muddled double think
You are a very strange player, talah
double-thinking, and a lot of strange side comments
the village noob
you should look over tybalt and maybe vote him
I believe he's more of a dumb townie...It doesn't look like an act
Do you wanna pressure him or not?
Oh your avatar is so appropriate Talah. You are very energetic.
I am a bit confused. I don't think my thoughts about tybalt are too complicated
Stop it.

QFT.

Why should I hold JMO to different standards than anyone else simply because he adopts a persona?

@HB: You know my thinking's evolved a bit throughout this game and I no longer think that the reasons I stated earlier are good reasons for a 'strong town read'.

Combined with the above, I'd say that gives you a 'null' read at best. Not hammering JMO long before deadline when he's obviously anti-town and just making things harder for everyone, makes me withhold my read until I learn the reason. The simpler you can manage to keep it please, the better.

@Mala: Please also explain what the delay or reason for withholding was or is.

Grey has of course currently backed JMO and is free to change his mind, as is anyone as long as they can explain it, and Tybalt gets a pass until he feels like coming back after all the attacks on him.

Both Grey and Tybalt now have null reads until I get around to reviewing their perspectives in the light of day. Which may take a while.

@Gen: (ninja'd) I'm backing my assessment of the situation but I agree. I'm not here to make besties with everyone, but the AtEs and absolute garbage are such a mindfuck and I don't know how to put that politely.

Maybe I should just sub out or self-hammer or something.

[talah]

Fuckit - never one to shy away from a rash decision or two.

VOTE: talah

And this one's to relieve the pressure.

[talah]

..oops autocorrect

VOTE: jarmo

V/LA till Saturday

[talah]

@all Sorry for the shithouse posts above.

@jmo Are you able to put on your pure-IC hat and clarify whether 'suicide-townie' is a valid play in these newb games? That is, a town role which can act as scum by intentionally lying in order to trap scum.

Have seen other (non-referenced) threads say 'the site frowns on lying if you are VT' which is what caused me to go to such lengths to try and poke holes in the logic of what you were saying.

If the answer is 'yes it is' then I actually have NFI whether you are scum or not anymore and will sheep Gen, Mala, and HB and possibly Grey who I would have second thoughts on if the role was valid.

[talah]

Ah ok, so if you're vanilla town you're allowed to lie, just not about your role?

[talah]

No not really but thanks, I thought that really if you were a town role or rather a VT role it was frowned on to lie at all in that role. Something about lynch all liars.

I should have asked this ages ago huh.

[talah]

Absolutely, thanks.

VOTE: Tybalt

[talah]

Explain.

? I'm with-holding.. What exactly?

either you are...

Embarrassing and ridiculous logic caused by belief that VT cannot knowingly lie. IF X knowingly lied THEN X is scum AND Y knowingly ignoring or supporting the lie is scum.

Wrong. Anti-town =/= Scum.

[talah]

Sorry. I thought that if I caught JMO in a lie it meant he was 100% confirmed as scum and as long as I could explain it adequately the rest of town would have to vote.

I thought therefore that JMO had been pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and proceeded to go for his throat to catch him out to confirm my own suspicions and to prove to the rest of the town that he was scum.

When everyone continued to ignore the fact that there couldn't be three mafia ingame as an objective reality (me repeatedly asking JMO for a read on myself to either come to the conclusion that he was either in a logical loop or otherwise) and when he said he couldn't get a read on me but had already said he was sure that Gen and Mothrax were scum, I believed I had caught him in a lie and proceeded to attempt to 'convince' HB that he MUST be scum (at the time I thought the two must be JMO and Grey). When HB totally ignored me I had no idea why, but felt sure I could explain the logic and basically fell on my knees begging that this must be right.

When that didn't pan out I had to assume that HB was scum and went back to make some halfarsed case against her manipulating me or something. I also had the presumption that JMO had somehow deceived everyone else because being only two of them they must be scumbuddies, so I proceeded to let everyone else off the hook and start to explain my 'of course, this must be what Tybalt's thinking' etc. I also felt that JMO was taunting me with the fact he'd tricked everyone. It became increasingly frustrating trying to explain and have no-one see it or listen.

I asked you to explain why you didn't hammer JMO, whether it was knowingly or because you'd been tricked too.

Feel free to pick it apart but it's not really game related. I only had suspicions of JMO earlier and didn't change my vote until I've just changed it to tybalt now so it doesn't much change anything else of what I've said previously to be examined anyway. I'm voting Tybalt now because of semi-sheeping and a null-ish read, although a couple of the things he's said have been a little bit off depending on how you look at them.

[talah]

Grey I would really like to know about this too. First thought it was coaching but now I'm just wondering what it was.

@Jmo: Before someone hammers you, do you see Talah as the most likely partner for Mothrax then?

And you should contribute more huh...

Talah, your opinion on gen?

JMO, Gen I like the posts of, but I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be looking for as far as scumhunting goes. He's opinionated.

(Sorry for my behaviour toward. I hope I've explained a bit of the reasoning but it was undoubtedly rude and offensive, no excuses.)

[talah]

Yeah I didn't really want to post before deadline but I'm actually against a JMO lynch in principle and probably practice now. I started tunnelling him at a very early stage and have looked back over the sequence of events. I just don't think there's a lot even to be learned if JMO gets lynched and is town, because his statements are terse and easily taken in the wrong way if you've already decided he's mafia.

My two cents. JMO, Grey, Gen, Moth, are any of you prepared to switch your votes to Tybalt? HB's given a pretty good case earlier (ISOing tybalt is the easiest way to find it)

[talah]

In addition to tybalt's ISO:

I sound like a broken record, but if you look at his vote history and his reads, you will find the inconsistencies that point tybalt towards scum. Mala pointed out the problem in his first vote. His second vote I pointed out the hypocrisy in his accusations against jmo. His defense of that vote, where he accuses me of avoiding discussing jmo (which I did later in the post) and how he states that being hypocritical does not mean his arguments are invalid, is such an awful shift of accusation. Tybalt never really explained how his vote was justified. Also look at that defense post (where I'm accused of not acknowledging his points about jmo) and his town read of jmo, moving his vote to greywing. Only a 30 post gap, in which jmo makes no post that should give jmo a town read. Plus, I think voting someone because they had a gut read on someone is bad as well. Compared to his accusation on jmo, he barely says anything about grey, or even why gut reads are scummy, or any good reason on why he changed his mind. If I were to make a guess, tybalt probably fell off the wagon because you put him at L-2. As I said earlier, scum prefer to lynch without being on the wagon.
I know I'm pretty stubborn, but I notice you people are at least conceding on some of my points, so there has to be some truth to it.

[talah]

I will also vote Tybalt, his lack of play and his constant I will give you my reads now and then doesn't. Either he is just lazy, in which case I would please urge him to replace out, or its a gambit so he never has to answer up to the questions posted.

So a JMO lynch is out. Ah i don't know about tybalt, I haven't really looked at him much this game so to lynch him would just be me hopping on a wagon. Ill give his character a read over.

Agreed, but unless we can get 5 people online to vote on some pretty flaky evidence um...

Fake / Pedit: Gen, we need a lynch today??

[talah]

me too but I wanna know why Grey was asking for a dying man's wish

[talah]

Talah, you are just hopping on any wagon you can get, first it was jmo, then it was tybalt and now it's me. But pretty sure a page ago you said I was fine. You are just wanting to lynch anyone which I am not liking.

Ner that's not true but I'm impressed by ur ego. I've got a loving relationship with Grey not answering questions right now, so the inn's full.

[talah]

To whom? You've said a few conflicting things in the last few posts and they've been pointed out, not necessarily as accusations.

[talah]

Interesting times. Interesting, somewhat devastating times. Thanks Rach for the update (nice flavours!).

By my underinformed judgement the tybalt lynch means we have either Row 1 or Column A of the setup, in which case I guess that a roleblocker and a bulletproof virtually cancel each other out, if Column A is the setup.

On the upside, at least no one who's town has reason to be mysterious about potential doc or cop roles anymore.

To that effect,

Hyperion

, will you help me out and clarify whether HB's killing is WIFOM; would we be looking for people who HB suspected, or people who HB

didn't suspect

do you think?

Gen_Wolf

, caught one of your pre-crash posts and wanted to clarify that I was in no way jumping from wagon to wagon:

Agreed, but unless we can get 5 people online to vote on some pretty flaky evidence um...
Fake / Pedit: Gen, we need a lynch today??

The fake edit was a question I was asking you, when I spotted that you'd 'stubborned up' and effectively said you weren't available for a tybalt lynch even if it meant causing a no-lynch. Several of the things you said in those final couple of furious hours were seemingly contradictory as well, all three of jmo, hb and myself spotted those fairly readily. Any reason for that? (Also 'flaky' means not solid (or probably 'prone to flaking apart') in my land.)

Talking about final couple of furious hours - I think we might have had 5 - 6 hours left with at least a couple of people available to hammer, at the time when you signed tybalt's death certificate,

Greywing

. Bit premature?

mothrax

, you have made a couple of assertions which I'm not sure about - due diligence and all. The first was that Luigi's RVS-style 'I find subbing suspicious' post was 'a serious post'. The second was that jmo's vote on Mala 'was not a gambit'. Could you explain why you think these are both correct assertions?

jmo

, do you think that Grey's vote on mothrax, was more, or less, opportunistic than mothrax's own vote on you?

Mala

, what is it about Hyperion that strikes you as town-like?

[talah]

Certainly. Can't say I thought about it too much at the time, don't think I was singling him out actually (that in response to the characterisation of the question )

I actually had been forming questions I already wanted to ask most people for the duration of night / crash. Pretty much everyone else I had some kind of meaningful follow up question for already (except you who I didn't really want to rile you as you already seemed quite irritated by my idiocy. Also FTR I'll be trying to lurk and learn a bit more).

Hyperion intro'ed himself basically saying I was def-newb, which I took as him saying something about his own skills. I pointed this out the first time I asked him about WIFOM (well more pointedly in the major update post a bit later), also wanted to follow up on jmo's pre-crash post saying we should investigate HB in view of the NK (and incidentally am wanting to learn what WIFOM actually is in the context of a game anyway). Since the investigation of HB seemed to strike me as a possible example of this, I decided it might be a good question to try to engage Hyperion in conversation as he's been a bit lurkey. I don't have much of a feel for whether his behaviour is scummy or towney so asked a pretty neutral and informative question for everyone, if answered (and I have faith).

Everyone else should feel free to throw their hat into the ring, about the implications of HB's NK (or indeed Tybalt's lynch) as well as the direct question - each post is an open letter after all.
(nudge-nudge.. get to the avenging!)

[talah]

(briefly s'pose the other thing too is that Hyper's shown some decent ability to give neutral sit-reps in several of the posts he's made, so if he's town it could be really valuable. If he's scum it would be (might be?) difficult to hide in a neutral sit-rep about an NK.)

[talah]

Sure you can ask me anything.

Planning to do with what? Planning to do with your inference that it's me trying to role-hunt?

I'm happy to be corrected, but 1 x 1-shot bulletproof town and 1 x mafia roleblocker = guaranteed that the next NK will be a roleblock and a kill on the same person.

My point is that nobody who's scum now has any excuse to be making all the signs of being some town PR that they're not - ie acting all mysterious and lurking because they don't want to give their puritanical town role away. This means that people who lurk now or don't scumhunt or answer questions frankly begin to become more scummy-looking, because there's no future opportunity for a false roleclaim of Doc or Cop. That's how it's advantageous to town.

And I'll have to slightly disagree if you are saying that lynching Tybalt was a terrible outcome (which I'm entirely not sure you are). He didn't defend himself with any efficacy, he dropped a few weird statements and then couldn't explain his reasoning - nor did he really attempt to - and "Wait for the Hotsauce update coming guys" or whatever, then no update for hours and ends up with him getting lynched, wtf is that? No we weren't waiting with baited breath like grateful paupers for an update from Tybalt - we were waiting for some statements that made sense, or some defence. Seriously it's not the worst thing in the world. The devastation is in HB's loss, as she was moving things ahead and questioning pretty much everything. And now we don't really have that.

Hope that *opinion and analysis* serves to put your mind at ease about my alignment. Not being sarcastic or narky, but the pace of this game is excruciating.

May I ask you in return for some notional clarification of the Scum/Town list you put together anyway? Feelings, past events, hints, whatever?

While I'm answering questions, I might as well throw in:

(...)
You say mothrax would have been blameless for a no lynch

but I also see no way we can blame him in this situation as he was not on the wagon?

Care to quote where I said this?

Grey this is ridiculous. Why didn't you drop back in and say oops when you re-read it and realised (probably moments after posting it) that you've misread the sentence? Seems like you have time to drop in whenever you want to make a demand or place some allusion on someone's intent but absolutely no time to answer the questions given to you. This is pretty much the same complaint I had of jmo to start with, but I have to re-read jmo in light of heavy tunnelling. If you're doing the same thing to me, and ignoring my own questions, from experience it can be a slippery slope.

So this:

@Jmo: Before someone hammers you, do you see Talah as the most likely partner for Mothrax then?

Why did you ask this? How does it help town?

...And other recent questions from Gen, and previous questions, go completely unanswered. (I give you credit for your most recent post which is actually a direct answer.) But seriously, we need to scumhunt, which means if you're town you need to be open to answering all kinds of questions, not just the ones that suit you. You had that attitude early on yourself pestering Tybalt (or Thane?) for the answer to a question. Y U NO answer questions?

[talah]

Something I've also been meaning to ask... I don't know if it's faux pas.

How many completed games does each player have? Of Mafia, Werewolf, anything like this. I haven't chased up meta on you guys' previous games really. (couple of clickey clickey browsey browsey weeks ago on jmo and mothrax is all)

If it's a bad question, tell me please. But I'll start the ball rolling: Completed games of Mafia or similar: 0

[talah]

VOTE: Greywing

Yeah you're not really scumhunting though, are you? Really just recycling and re-hashing arguments from others, jumping on others opinions as your own etc. In addition I find this claimed tunnelling of myself (ie you tunnelling me as scum and therefore refusing to take things I say seriously) to be really bad look and counterproductive for someone who's subbed in pre-game to an SE slot.

jmo, can you do me a huge favour and answer this please:

jmo

, do you think that Grey's vote on mothrax, was more, or less, opportunistic than mothrax's own vote on you?

I'm having huge difficulty trying to figure out whether you're actually scummy or not.

[talah]

Thanks, but I think I'll wait for an answer from jmo. This is not *fluff*, it's an attempt to clarify whether jmo can make sensible arguments or analysis, and if he can, then maybe he'll expand his horizons from I SET TRAP/TRAP SPRUNG/MOTHRAX SCUM.

Our 'Natural' conversation where you gave your "Read" on tybalt was pure re-hash from what other people had said before you had.

If you're not tunnelling me alone, then you're tunnelling me, mothrax, gen_wolf and hyperion. If you 'trust' your town reads, last I saw Mala's most scummy now is jmo.

If I'm stupid and incapable of putting information together, and also scum, how in fuck am I not lynched immediately as scum. You think I'm just throwing random shit together in order to "confuse" everyone?

Grey you are scum. The only thing I'm unsure of is who your partner is, and at this stage I'd like more input from Mala and mothrax as well as jmo.

[talah]

@Talah:

I have a question. Why ask filler questions regarding the mafia experience now in Day 2. Why didn't you ask during Day 1? Where it was more suitable to do so.

I don't know if I like how you jumped onto the Grey wagon once he got a vote on him. If you though he was scum why didn't you vote him before Gen?

Mala,

I gave a pretty strong indication of who my top scumread was by confronting grey prior to Gen voting. I don't know what question you're asking about, regarding filler questions, unless it was 'how many games have you played?' And if that's the questiion, it's because I want an idea of how advanced people's thinking would be regarding, for example, jumping on things like 'yes you're def-town because you played a gambit which I believe'.

Grey is not a wagon form me to jump on, with one vote. I like Gen's posts as we seem to come to similar conclusions based on different evidence. Hyper has been totally willing to lay down his own information on scenarios, I wish he would post more. jmo's meta fucks me hard but I think he's avoiding taking risks. Grey has been on my shoulder like Tyler Durden ever since I subbed in and laid a vote on him, and has done nothing but attack for defense apart from like one post. Mothrax has a pretty stoic meta but I'm not sure that rules her out as scum, although I did have a mild town gut-read (listening Grey, this is how you do a town gut-read) band then the direct questions were answered in a way I thought credible.

Mala you yourself I'm unsure of. You really haven't interacted directly with a huge amount of other players and have posted a couple of 'I'll catch up soon' posts, vowed to avenge Honey bee, and I don't see it. Seriously serious players shouldn't be tunnelling, they should be gathering information and making arguments based on that. I would think. Several posts ago (well ages ago) I noted you hadn't directly interacted with any but a few players and that still stands. Where are your questions to others?

Pointedly, what's your read on Grey? And please, why, to inform the rest of us...

[talah]

*edit - "band" = just "and"... the direct posts etc

[talah]

Aight thanks, I'll have a think about that.

In response to your direct question, I didn't think I waited long at all. Certainly you haven't placed a vote yet. I'm posting to get people talking, which I believe is the best form of scumhunting. And also throwing down my opinions of who I think is scum, and

why I think that

. At

all

times. Even when my opinion changes.

[talah]

Okay, Mala. After a quick re-think... What do you think of my attacks on Grey. Who do you think is scummiest out of Grey and Gen. Am I scum.

[talah]

If that's the only way we're going to get further info out of you, why don't you post a vote or some reads or something and help end the day early? You were kind of AWOL after voting jmo end of day 1 iirc. And you've just been gone almost 5 days prior to that helpful tidbit.

@Rach-Mod

Can you prod mothrax please?

[talah]

Mala, all I can say is if you want to ask me five questions in a row, while avoiding asking anyone else anything, I don't really know how to respond. I did say I was going to be trying to lurk-n-learn a bit more. But questions me without regard to any other players is just going to result in more spam explaining in detail why I'm doing every single thing I'm doing. I don't see that as particularly helpful to Town at this stage.

I can tell you with all assuredness that nothing that I'm doing is scum motivated but *shrug* I don't know if you believe that or not. It's pretty apparent you don't actually.

If you really want more answers from me maybe you could start by clarifying the reads list you posted a while back. Tybalt's lynch germinated from an extremely similar point. Double standards much.

[talah]

Opting for the 'little' version. The big version was nicely spaced and with quotes but it boils down to I'm irritated Mala's focussing on me instead of scum.

Also FYI Mala I found out that Roleblocker does not win over Bulletproof 'as it's a reflexive action', wish you'd have just told me that. Grr.

Mala's question, and a comment.

I also believe that Grey is scum especially after his last few OMGUS reactions, and am asking Hyper to help me lynch if the only contribution he feels able to make, is after he sees another flip. I would also be happy if Hyper merely wants to give reads and vote someone else, as it is likely to cause some kind of activity.
I did not ask Hyperion to post his last post. I asked him whether he thought we should be looking for association or disassociation from HB, in potential scum.

Gen's question.

No I don't have anything to hide but I am feeling a bit of brain drain. I feel daffy duck in a line of conscripts, where all the conscripts take one step back and the drill sergeant points and says 'ah-ha, you just volunteered'.
I don't think that Hyper is active lurking, more like he's not enjoying the game.

[talah]

What's the difference between what honey bee was doing and what grey was doing?

I don't understand this question, or who it's directed toward, can you explain please?

[talah]

Oh, cool.

Grey jumped and voted mothrax as soon as you did, but he said you were definitely being lynched.

HB advised that anti-town reads did not guarantee you were scum, and did not change her vote and was reluctant to hammer you but would have anyway to avoid a no-lynch.

[talah]

Part 1:

He's trying to figure out your alignment. How is that not helpful to Town?

I guess it goes to the qualities or intent of those questions. Or the subtext. Most of the D2 questions have had pretty heavy connotations.

This particular sub-chain was irritating and pointless:

Post 510:

I respond to the first question from Mala and mention I'll be trying to lurk a bit more
(Between: Question you and wait for responses and other activity, vote you based on day 1 thoughts/feelings and day 2 reactions, respond to you etc)

Post 528:

Mala makes the following odd statement:

Last time I played against a person in an open setup. I allowed two things to go pass me.

1) Activity levels

2) Filler questions. That bit me in the back because he turned up mafia. He was asking similar things about the game experience to multiple people and his

activity was high

. I mean higher than anyone would ever see in a Day 1.

You are showing similar signs

to this.

^^Don't know what this statement is really, um association by parallel to someone else in some other game who exhibited similar 'signs'? I take it as an explanation-ish for the question or something. Then I answer Mala's

fifth D2 question

from the same post.

(Between: No questions from Mala are outstanding and no-one else is really saying anything. Hyper pops in briefly with a nothing statement so I ask why he isn't more proactive (etc))

So: Local time, between Saturday 4.17pm and Monday 10.48am I make precisely one post (Sunday 11.51am), having asked people questions I wanted to know the answers to, having no outstanding questions to answer, having already placed a vote, having said I'll try to lurk more, and even popping in to harass Hyper anyway... wait for it...

Post 535:

Mala comes to this conclusion:

Talah I already gave you my thoughts on Grey. I disagree with your thoughts on Grey because he's kinda playing to his town meta. So if it was a choice between Grey / Gen it would have to be Gen, but that's after I eliminate Grey because he's playing to meta. You could be scum yes.

I also noticed after I called you out for large activity your activity decreased.

Sorry but that's a weak argument which was created on a thin premise and later referred back to, to self-reinforce out of context. So I dunno, maybe the constant questions at me are somehow supposed to be helping town?
Incidentally I didn't re-ask about Mala's read on Grey, I specifically asked

what she thought of my attacks on Grey

(were they valid etc.). So avoiding the question with annoyance really.
And still no reads from her, just the triumphant blank-reads-list from Post 458.

Part 2:

Also, you've been tunneling me since my first post on D2, and I've seen no mention of any other scum-reads. Who else could be scum?

Tunneling: Not really. I'm answering / addressing most of your questions and statements and putting pressure on you and would be more than happy to see you flip. Call it gut feel.
Scumreads: You will find I have indicated this already, partly in one of my responses to you, and in more detail in one of my D2 answers to Mala. Unless more compelling information comes to hand, that's where they stand.

[talah]

Posts of another conversation:

By my underinformed judgement the tybalt lynch means we have either Row 1 or Column A of the setup, in which case I guess that a roleblocker and a bulletproof virtually cancel each other out, if Column A is the setup.

On the upside, at least no one who's town has reason to be mysterious about potential doc or cop roles anymore.

I'm not sure how this helps the town. I see it indirectly fishing for possible reactions. We don't need our other PR (That's if we have any left) to be outed.

May I ask what you were planning on doing with this?

I'm happy to be corrected, but 1 x 1-shot bulletproof town and 1 x mafia roleblocker = guaranteed that the next NK will be a roleblock and a kill on the same person.

My point is that nobody who's scum now has any excuse to be making all the signs of being some town PR that they're not - ie acting all mysterious and lurking because they don't want to give their puritanical town role away. This means that people who lurk now or don't scumhunt or answer questions frankly begin to become more scummy-looking, because there's no future opportunity for a false roleclaim of Doc or Cop. That's how it's advantageous to town.

I recently found out that my "Roleblocker eats Bulletproof" assumption is false, from reading a newb thread which is completed and which Mala has just finished Modding. It's in the 'rules' post, I can link it here if wanted.

So Mala provides no response to my false assumption than a Roleblocker cancels out a Bulletproof... Despite the fact she says she's concerned about the Role being exposed. HMMMMM.. HEAVY THINKING REQUIRED...

In fact Grey, if you want to Riff on Mala's possible Scummability, I'd be open to changing my vote. I wouldn't even necessarily see it as a bus as I could consider Hyper as an association if Mala were to be proven scum.

[talah]

BTW, HAI GuyInFreezer. I've met you before, as I've placed you there many times in Hitman.

SitRep: Talah=Town. Everyone Else=Potential Scum, some more, some less. GuyInFreezer=Needs to make own assumptions with the exception of the preceding two.

Ai Helps.

[talah]

Gah, but you don't even clarify when people make mistakes? I wanted to kill the game because I didn't think it'd be fair having subs have to read through the bullshit honest mistakes I'd pulled.

Yes I think it's fair I check my 90% scumread.

Mala dude if you sub out I've got nothing. We might as well ask Gen if the game should be abandoned.

[talah]

And Grey, jmo, since hey've come good.

[talah]

Sorry, rather, been participating and haven't flaked... Arghhhh bedtime

[talah]

^^I actually really like that vote heheh

@Gen - If Mala were to limit her direct interactions or questions to others for the duration of Day 2, to just a few people like she did Day 1, then it makes finding mafia that much harder. So I didn't like that she carpet bombed me with questions to the exclusion of others, which made her a bit more scummy in my view. Regardless of the content of those questions (some of which was dubious).

Aside from Grey who I'm voting, the other scum could be Mala, jmo or mothrax. With the limited information available.

[talah]

@Talah: Sorry to spoil your fun, but I'm not voting Mala as it's counterproductive to try and lynch a Town slot.

Very well.

VOTE: guy in a freezer

Honestly, I just want us to lynch him, Talah and Gen. I couldn't care less for the order we do it in.

Isn't the order really important? Like for MYLO or LYLO or whatever? Aren't we in a pretty shitty situation if we mislynch again? So your list would have to be 100% containing the two scum to avoid us losing, if we voted all three? (I don't know how it works in detail but I think it's a valid question / point - I mean you'd want to be voting your #1 scumspect I'd think?)

(apologies for the 4 x question marks - really it's a compound question punctuated by confusion)

[talah]

So also Gen, not much info to work with admittedly, but if you had to use pure instinct and say whether mothrax and Hyper were scum or town based on what you've seen so far, which way would each tend?

[talah]

Honestly, my reads are dust right now. I can't do anything as town, or scum with this amount of activity level.

I expect scum to get a perfect win with town acting in this manner though.

I get where you're coming from, and I feel ya, but surely you could lay down a read or two. You are the advocate of people committing to reads after all.

And also you could do heaps of stuff for town, like asking people questions and questioning motives and all that's good and holy.

So, what do you reckon about Mala for scum? Gut instinct if need be.

[talah]

Yeah, ouch Gen. I don't at all like you putting Freezer at L-1. If I had a vote on I'd be unvoting. The only mitigating factor is that probably no-one else is voting anything right now. There's totally not enough information to go on.

My case on Mala is not votable for me right now, but I already explained why she just got a +1 scummy for me. I explained and then summarised like one post ago.

So to paraphrase you think mothrax/freezer might be scummy? And what about Hyper? Seriously the question is if you were under threat of guillotine what would you say even with the lack of evidence?

[talah]

VOTE: Gen

Sheep pl0x Grey

[talah]

Gen I doubt Frezzer's even aware he's in this game, have you looked over the newbie queue? Take your freezer vote off, now.

[talah]

FFS, it doesn't do anything me voting you anyway.

VOTE: Grey

But you get my point?

[talah]

And also, yes the point is, just guess. It beats the shit out of 'well I don't know'. It indicates you're prepared to take a certain kind of risk. Like the risk that you can adequately explain later that you were guessing.

[talah]

Hey no absolutely mothrax did shit. But the fact remains he did nothing scummy IMO.

[talah]

Anyway bedtime FYI, hopefully we can get a replacement or two so we don't all self-destroy.

[talah]

I'm very confident that it's two out of the three of you. If we pick wrong, mislynch today, and scum successfully kills, we'll have 3 Town and 2 scum on D3. There's 2 scum remaining in my list. We just lynch the last 2. I have strong Town reads on the other 3 players, so I don't feel nervous about playing it out this way. If I wasn't so sure, then yes, I'd agree that this wouldn't be the best idea.

Talah, if it came down to it, would you be willing to lynch Gen or Freezer today?

Okay thanks for explaining. But it's too much to take on faith - a person would need to 1) trust your assessment completely 2) become an automaton and not take new information on board. If you have strong cases for any of your scum reads a summary case detailing the points might help?

At this stage I wouldn't consider moving my vote unless there was a good reason to. Gen has a town vibe to me, and Hyper did until his last post... and now he's null.

If it came down to the risk of no-lynch or vote one of those two.. I don't know that a no-lynch is as damaging Day 2 as it would have been Day 1 so... I dunno. Maybe Monsieur IC could postulate on the pure theory briefly.

Very well then. \('.'\) (/'.')/

Did you just post boobs? And will you respond to my post 567?

@Gen: I dunno what just happened there and sorry for freaking out on you. But I could imagine Hyper moseying on in unannounced and just laying a hammer on if a few posts had passed and being able to say he was only skimming, you know, maybe honest maybe not, who could tell. Too risky methinks.

[talah]

Oh Grey, btw I misread, you said Gen or Freezer. I'll have to wait for Freezer input. Mothrax I did have the vague unexplained town on but started to get suspicious when his activity died down, and I began seeing a possible intentional disassociation between him and yourself.

[talah]

UNVOTE: Grey

At least temporarily, because I just woke up, and I think that would have put Grey at L-1.

[talah]

Right. Okay. Hyper:

1) is that IT?
2) do you have any other reason for voting Grey which is not sheeping?
3) what's so opportunistic about Gen's vote on Freezer if there was no chance you would vote him anyway?
4) who are your current scumreads? I've lost track
5) how often do you plan on posting from hereonin?

[talah]

I see you lurking.

VOTE: Hyper

[talah]

I want information. Hyper only has my vote on. Freezer / Grey have two each. I will double check and report back if incorrect.

[talah]

oic, that was @Hyper

[talah]

:( "Objection"

I'm thinking Grey/Hyper team now. (Grey first still) (yeah happy with my vote where it is)

But Freezer you make me sad, what thread will I maul for the weekend if you don't give me anything to work with?

[talah]

*** Freezer, somewhat important

When you get back to your read-through can you do me a huge favour and not focus 'too too' much on my own actions in regards to feedback on players?
Don't avoid commenting on my posts by any means, but...

You will find out why this needs to be weighted later, suffice to say for now that:
- A lot of what you say has been said before
- Take a squiz at the activity list
- You're reading a train-wreck in the making at the point you got up to

Take my posts with a grain of salt please? Hearing about myself again doesn't help me much

VOTE: Now everyone else post!

(Gen, hey love your question to Mala, that was the other question I didn't ask.. what's that - Shmaakin or something?)

(jmo, you could afford to place a proper vote on hyper although I like the intent.. Currently 1 vote (mine) but... Mala won't vote hyper without a reason(+0 risk).. I don't think Gen's in the business of hammering(+.2 risk).. Grey wouldn't hammer unless he wanted to kamikaze(+.5 risk)... Freezer's offline for a bit and doesn't seem twitchy(+.3 risk)... Hyper can only self-hammer if scum, no?(+.05 risk).. So that's 1+.2+.5+.3+.05 = 2.05 effective possible votes on Hyper. I think you can safely vote properly even if someone else decides to vote after that)

[talah]

Vote Overstated Backdown

You guys suck. Almost to the extent that I do.

[talah]

What is it, like a public holiday in the Americas and the middle of the night elsewhere. Yeah as if.

Well you see there was this little document written up telling King George we were sick of him and well us American types DO consider July 4th a holiday ... Rach

[talah]

Well you see there was this little document written up telling King George we were sick of him and well us American types DO consider July 4th a holiday ... Rach

Damn Yankees with your "documents" and "celebrations".

And I passed my exams so to put it nicely I will be getting fuck drunk

Damn South Africans with your "exams" and "celebrations". Congrats Gen!

[talah]

@Grey: Another reason why I'm (effectively) voting you. You do not defend yourself as town. At all. You do not bother saying why the things you are doing, are supposed to be town motivated. You seem to have me down as scum based on events from aeons ago. You'll notice that I do not actually care if people flag me as scum.

So why aren't you defending yourself? I expect some kind of answer to this considering I just took you off L-1.

[talah]

And @

Hyper

, you are at L-2.

I wouldn't have too much trouble thinking that Gen might vote you with Freezer oopsHammering.

Are you going to sit back and not play the game with a few neutral observations laid down?

[talah]

I'm not so sure you did try to vote but nvm.

Can you clarify then whether the question mark was intentional or part of tag fail?

And yes Mala, top of page is the entirety of the reasoning apparently.

[talah]

I'm not so sure you did try to vote but nvm.

Can you clarify then whether the question mark was intentional or part of tag fail?

And yes Mala, top of page is the entirety of the reasoning apparently

.

[talah]

Take care Mala.

[talah]

Okay. Well I will have a closer look at what you are saying later tonight and address your arguments either individually or as part of the case I will make before hammering.

Touching on a couple of points:

• 'scum mentality' is a broad generalisation and I disagree strongly with your argument or the application thereof. Town wincon is as much to stay alive as a scum wincon. Difference is town need to find the scum. And they need to be able to say why they think they have, and convince the rest of town
  
• I slightly like that you've made a bit of an attempt to flesh out your arguments for me as scum
  
• I never said that 'I don't care how I am perceived'. I said I don't care when people flag me as scum. Look at Fropome's grand entrance as an example. I really liked that because I couldn't believe he could come in and make such a strong argument that I was scummy, so I instantly believed that he was town. He couldn't make that argument without being town and get away with it. (Or he might be able to, idk.) But it didn't seem like something someone scummy would do. So I read him as town.
  
• I *do* get concerned when people start to vote or get a wagon up on me, because I need to do what I can to prevent a mislynch. Whether the circumstances demand attack or defense, either is fine. I have nothing to hide.
  
• I still don't see much actual defence from you however. You don't want to justify your own votes or behaviour except from very brief throwaway lines, I have been saying this for some time now.

[talah]

Welcome, TheIrishPope.

So Grey I had a bit of a reread of your latest post and have the following feedback:

You bolded just the bit you were interested in attacking. Below bolded is what I want you to respond to:

@Grey: Another reason why I'm (effectively) voting you. You do not defend yourself as town. At all. You do not bother saying why the things you are doing, are supposed to be town motivated. You seem to have me down as scum based on events from aeons ago.

You'll notice that I do not actually care if people flag me as scum.

So why aren't you defending yourself? I expect some kind of answer to this considering I just took you off L-1.

This is the

exact opposite

of what you bolded. You ignored my criticism and appeal for explanation in its entirety, and latched on to my comment about myself as something you could attack.

If I'm lynched today, I hope Town finally starts to seriously look at you.

It'd be a bit interesting that you'll have been a major player on two Town lynches.

Please explain how I was a major player in Tybalt's lynch if that's your 'Imma flip Town guise' argument.

And you can have the vote back. It's not doing anything sitting on Hyper.
VOTE: Grey

[talah]

That's L-1

btw

[talah]

Niceone Mr Pope!

The universe was stopped pending your and Freezer's input. But Grey was too obviously scummy to wait methinks.

Inclination would be trying to get info from jmo, for tomorrow.

[talah]

Anyways, some twilight banter and talky-talky encouragement.

@TheIrishPope, I like your style. My mum reads these threads and has said you're absolutely brilliant to follow. I've read half a dozen of your posts... the one you just did is enough to confirm that as true heheh

Do you have a preferred nick?

Anyways as a heads-up the way this thread has usually gone is, I post stupidly or ragepost without thinking too much, or 'feeling' out scum, (or honestly thinking I'm doing a good job) and then spam the thread with explanations, and then get worried I'm spamming, and then tell everyone I'll slow down on posting. Most of the time this involves me talking about me. People attack or question my motives and I respond, and that's how information is gathered. Gen is a bit of an exception as he subbed in and has a good balance of talk / wait. But generally I'm happy to talk shit because I know that I'm actually pretty good at explaining what's going on with me. When I eventually play scum in one of these games, this is going to kill my meta.

@GuyInFreezer, I'm liking calling you Freezer.. likewise, preferred nick for you? I'd hate to be posting GID (and TIP), but if that's what's good then good good.

Also, no need to clam up at this point. We still need to figure out the other scum and jmo is by no means a sure thing, but I don't like how he's playing possum now. 'My reads are dust' of Post 563 as an example. There are other options available too.. but every argument initially made, stands, even after my revelation of Post 461. The Grey buddying does nothing much to allay suspicions here.

@Grey, GG. I think you are proficient as scum - come back and do a 'bad call I was town lynch talah' post please :))

[talah]

I can see arguments for your slot too

IrishPope

. Mala had not interacted with a lot of other people although she had a lot of games going on and the conversation started to carry itself. The thing I found a bit unnerving was the series of questions just after Day 2 started which seemed to contain accusatory conclusions in their premise. Not sure if scummy... or good scumhunting. A lot of what I'd said was confusing at the time. And Mala seemed to be making reads based on meta.. but those questions never addressed my main concerna about limited communications with other players.

Mothrax

similarly didn't say much and there is a potential conflict between him reading Grey, talah (me!), and jmo as scum, then coming back later and saying her Grey scumread was based on Grey's responses.... (his last post I think). It's a pretty slim lead and the only other weak suspicion is that an early scumread of Grey (voting jmo later), might have been some kind of distancing ploy.

Hyper

's been a bit baffling too. He's either explained well or not explained at all... and it looks like he'll be replaced now. I dunno what's going on with him much, but using X, Y Z was opportunistic as a reason to lynch someone is far far too simplistic for my liking. Even if it works 47.85 percent of the time (or whatever). But he voted Grey and seemed to be semi-flaking, so maybe that was his contribution. I also really liked Fropome's entrance, who Hyper replaced.

Gen

. Well I think I like Gen unless he's pulling some smooth moves. Thing is we really have come to a few similar conclusions with different timings based on different aspects. I can see the thinking here. Also Tybalt (who Gen replaced) showed a true intent to scumhunt in at least one of his few early posts that I remember.

Think that's pretty much it.

[talah]

edit: Gen replaced

Thane

, not tybalt

[talah]

Lastly: corrections and addendum.

I love quad / quin posts.

Don't discount Gen or anyone else. Anyone could be scum. If it's not quite obvious yet I expect to get nightkilled and am writing my last requests.

Mothrax, of course, actually should be stated as

Freezer

's slot. Oversight.

You guys will have to question really fearlessly to win the game for us. Scum don't WIFOM, right?

VOTE: jmo for tomorrow. Start contributing or making scumreads pl0x mr jaymo

[talah]

heheh I actually <3 jmo, but that's "irregardless" of scum

[talah]

if grey flips town though you are the only choice I've bound myself to and I'd have to vote you.... If grey flips town I have to defend the fuck out of myself cause if I get voted town loses....

[talah]

or are we in lylo then.. in which case I vote no one.......

[talah]

Did you just cancel out your last two posts? Thanks for posting anyway - bloody inactivity sucks and I'm irritating myself posting five thousand times so it's nice to hear an unfamiliar voice

[talah]

And that was Mala you just cast suspicion on Mr Grey.

[talah]

Yeahlike, any reason for that? Are you trying to help town scumhunt or something? Like on the off chance you flip town???

[talah]

SWEET! Yeah there's a potential sheeping of jmo on Gen but Hyper was worse if you look deeply. Any seriously his question to Mala seriously was a question I thought about later.... hangon...

Well Hay it was post 603 but it was a generic question if you look at it...

Gen you're not in the clear here. (As is NOONE from my perspective, heheh shades of Grey)

Keep it up Mr Freezer, I think we need some new perspectives here... (still jmo as my deathwish, at least get some answers plz? If I can have a mental breakdown misinterpreting rules and still come back with scumreads then um jmo as a player has no reason to have dustreads etc... but he's been quite polite lately so Idunno....)

[talah]

*cough* for the 8 millionth time of posting... Grey's a good sport

[talah]

Well Gen I'm expecting Freezer to post like 10 more posts tonight as he goes through reading the thread of death...

[talah]

And this thread too, he should post a couple of times :S

[talah]

Hey anyway Grey what do you dislike about Freezer? Like Popey has only posted a coupe times too....

[talah]

*LOL I'm calling you Grey now, Gen, apparently

[talah]

Sorry I'm not a very subtle drunkposter

Gen please get Freeze and Popey to post?

[talah]

Yah Twilight but pigeons/cats

Grey didn't like a lot. I really doubt we'll see a townflip. I will bite my own face off if we do.

[talah]

LOL nice

But Freezer put himself as vla early on and there was the whole Marathon forum thing going on....

Letssee! COMON FREEZER!!!

[talah]

Technicalities Mr Wolf.. I watched the timezone, and he's not been doing too bad.

STILL......

[talah]

(btw Rach and NS, that would have been the perfect time to call the night phase...)

You guise ))