Newbie 1562: Muses and Fates GAME OVER

[House]

I was addressing 2b1s's comment about posts that ping. He says it was a collection of posts that pinged, but he cut out a couple posts in between that show him thinking about stuff, which I think looks less suspicious than cutting out those posts.

The cut posts don't change shit, there are no new ideas in those cut posts.

House, why is Fire town? You seem pretty sure on it, and I'm inclined to trust you for... reasons, but I want to hear you explain this.

I don't want to lynch Tammy today. She's very much a player to watch for, but not a good today lynch.

Also, I'm not Depi, I don't know who Depi is.

I'd rather not answer that at this point, but I am happy with my townread of fire.

Depi = deathfisaro. It's his preferred nickname.

[House]

Most of her defending of Dooku I can write off as IC defending anoob, but that post raised major flags by how it was constructed.

So, you don't like that I saw something I consider scummy but is personality dependent and metad him?

You performed all that in the same post. That is why it looks fabricated. A normal process would be:

Post 1: This looks fishy.
-time lapse- (meta diving, etc)
Post 2: Oh, it's 'k.

By putting it all in the same post, it looks like a proactive defense for behavior that you are concerned may come back to haunt Dooku instead of a suspicion that is put to rest.

After all, why post about it if you are no longer suspicious of it?

[deathfisaro]

I subbed into my last game and started with an intro post and I said I preferred to be called Depi if my full username was too long because I don't like to be called "death" (who does?).
I'd have done the intro because that's how I thought mafia games open, but apparently they open with something called RVS instead and I felt kinda weird doing an intro as a newbie. And even if I do some people are unnecessarily rude and they ignore it anyway so I'm ticked =P

[Dani]

I'm back.
Depi, you said you had a problem with #210. I'll go through the thread while you talk about that.

[TheBreeze]

I am back! Reading through the thread from start to finish to get my head back in the game

I reccomend that others do the same

[Tammy]

I got some stuff going on with family for the holidays, so I will be inactive until the 26th. I suppose I'll use that day as my catchup day. Should I request V/LA for this?

Also, UNVOTE: Tammy Although, I do not like your posting style, I like the quality of your posts. Hopefully you took the hint that this wasn't a serious vote ^^

I didn't think it was serious, for the most part :p

The posting style thing is something you'll see debated in several games as people have different ideas.

[Tammy]

I was addressing 2b1s's comment about posts that ping. He says it was a collection of posts that pinged, but he cut out a couple posts in between that show him thinking about stuff, which I think looks less suspicious than cutting out those posts.

The cut posts don't change shit, there are no new ideas in those cut posts.

It wasn't that there were new ideas present in those posts, but it did look like there was a progression of thoughts. If I ould find it suspicious it would be that he was following someone else's suspicions, but since he's new that's not a suspicious act.

[Tammy]

Most of her defending of Dooku I can write off as IC defending anoob, but that post raised major flags by how it was constructed.

So, you don't like that I saw something I consider scummy but is personality dependent and metad him?

You performed all that in the same post. That is why it looks fabricated. A normal process would be:

Post 1: This looks fishy.
-time lapse- (meta diving, etc)
Post 2: Oh, it's 'k.

By putting it all in the same post, it looks like a proactive defense for behavior that you are concerned may come back to haunt Dooku instead of a suspicion that is put to rest.

After all, why post about it if you are no longer suspicious of it?

A couple things.

1). That's not a normal process for me, especially in this situation. I meta whenever a question arises. It more goes like. Player x is doing something that I've caught scum for before, but recently it's not caught scum and has turned out to be a player dependent or personality tell. I wonder if he has any other games, and how he entered as that could be telling. Oh hey he has one other game, he was scum, and his entrance post was him excusing himself ahead of time for his play. Hmm that's a bit different in tone, so maybe my original suspicion is nothing in this case especially considering that he lost that game and doesn't have another game. In that instance his entrance might be a bit more tentative than this one.

2) I make note of suspicious things all the time even if I don't find the person scummy, and in this instance especially I'm going to talk about things I've picked up on over the years.

3). Whether or not I find it of less concern than I originally did, I still want him to interact with me about it.

I'm not sure where you're getting proactive defense because all in same post. I don't even think that way.

[Tammy]

And I am waiting for some IC posts. What's up Tammy?

You'll have to wait a little longer for some posts for me; I just found out about a death in the family and I need to wake up and make some calls. I will be back later today though, but I at least wanted to get the intro post up.

If this is the case, I can totally understand that. I am sorry.

These posts suggest a connection between Count Dooku & Tammy (from Count Dooku's perspective).

But it did just strike me what's off in these points.

You say there's a connection to me from dooku' perspective, but that actually doesn't make sense. It would maybe make sense if I'm a random person, but I'm the IC.

And how is him being nice and saying sorry for a loss a connection?

[Count Dooku]

@Tammy
Re: 316 (Sorry, quote bug with cellphone, cannot quote)
That is one thing that I dislike that, but that actually makes the scum's job easier.
Why? Because even when a town player uses that statement (x or y, not both; and let's say x and y are town) enables the scum to jump on that tvt "fight" and can easily fly under the radar, strengthen the contrast between x and y, and it will result easy mislynches for the scum team. I know it for sure. I don't have that much experience, but this is something that even I did last game where I was newbscum. Even a newbscum was able to push mislynch(es), until Ray came. But even then Ray only pointed out scumtells about me, and didn't point out the truth about the tvt fight.
Conclusion: The only situation where "one of x and y must be scum, but they cannot be both scum" type statements help the town, when the statement is true and the person who says it is a townie. When the person is scum: see 201, when a townie "misreads" two townies: above.

[deathfisaro]

You say there's a connection to me from dooku' perspective, but that actually doesn't make sense. It would maybe make sense if I'm a random person, but I'm the IC.

Erm... I think newbie games have a very interesting mechanic called experience and to some extent, duty.
I like how you're both active as a player and as an IC (personally I think quiet ICs who get killed on N1 make the game not easier for town in the least). But "I'm the IC" comment is I don't know... unfair? You're in here to help newbies learn the game and yet you're kind of saying "you can't have such suspicions because of my role as IC." Because other games there won't be an IC and we don't need to learn a mindset where we give special privilege to some players.
And this is one of my nitpickings about Dani's last post (I think he'll bring it up himself looking at 378).

@Tammy
Re: 316 (Sorry, quote bug with cellphone, cannot quote)
That is one thing that I dislike that, but that actually makes the scum's job easier.
Why? Because even when a town player uses that statement (x or y, not both; and let's say x and y are town) enables the scum to jump on that tvt "fight" and can easily fly under the radar, strengthen the contrast between x and y, and it will result easy mislynches for the scum team. I know it for sure. I don't have that much experience, but this is something that even I did last game where I was newbscum. Even a newbscum was able to push mislynch(es), until Ray came. But even then Ray only pointed out scumtells about me, and didn't point out the truth about the tvt fight.
Conclusion: The only situation where "one of x and y must be scum, but they cannot be both scum" type statements help the town, when the statement is true and the person who says it is a townie. When the person is scum: see 201, when a townie "misreads" two townies: above.

I'm not sold that these things help town either. If such is said by town, there is really no guarantee that the statement is even half true. If it is said by scum, it's likely be TvT mislynch battle. If it was D2 or later and cop hasn't claimed but want to hint other townies that he's confirmed one scum and lead it, I can understand it but I don't know if it helps town otherwise.
Given such statements, you'd expect people to follow logically the next days after people flip, but generally the next day is generally a brand newish game for some counterintuitive reasons.

[Tammy]

I'm getting ready to take my turn driving, but real quick.

I wasn't saying you can't suspect me because I'm the ic but he drew a connection due to him asking where I was. I do agree it would be a little suspicious normally but because I am the ic and that's what he was waiting on its nit looking for some random person and therefore is associative. I can probably explain this better later but I've gotta drive now.

[deathfisaro]

Well I agree that I don't find much (if anything) suspicious about Dooku and you pair in particular but I just didn't like the expression. If Dooku said it I'd be perfectly fine with it.
I just like preemptively shooting down things that can potentially be exploited later =P

[Dani]

@deathfisaro
I'm still not sure what you disliked about #210. Do you feel that the motive behind [things it says] anti-town? I'll admit it's a very passive post, which doesn't put pressure onto anyone or even support any viewpoint. It's not really indicative of convictions on my part. By the way, does this

Interesting. The two stars of the show, and the IC who only you had the mind to scrutinize.

say anything to you?
-
I'm going on a trip and will be back in the next 36 hours, barring an unforeseen turn of events.

[RayFrost]

I've been holy balls busy, so I'm afraid I'll need to catch up on this game another time.

[deathfisaro]

@deathfisaro
I'm still not sure what you disliked about #210. Do you feel that the motive behind [things it says] anti-town? I'll admit it's a very passive post, which doesn't put pressure onto anyone or even support any viewpoint. It's not really indicative of convictions on my part. By the way, does this

Interesting. The two stars of the show, and the IC who only you had the mind to scrutinize.

say anything to you?
-
I'm going on a trip and will be back in the next 36 hours, barring an unforeseen turn of events.

It's hard to describe. It's not easy to simply it as "anti-town" or "scummy" or "fluff" or whatever else people use.
I think it's your point of view more than the content of your post. That exact quote struck me with such impression. While I agree that ICs are theoretically a better role model than SEs (many SEs play like they're going through "puberty" stage of mafia, however you interpret that is up to you because it's an extremely general and vague statement) they're still just 1 player with no more special power than any other player and should be treated like a regular player.
In my first game, which was a newbie game, I felt like it was normal to treat IC as IC. But as soon as I got into a normal game I'm now like "IC? So what?." Maybe I've gone too much the opposite direction but it might become a pet peeve if people keep making newbie games feel like a pseudo caste system game. I try not to label people newbies or SEs or ICs, it affects the game subtly but I haven't actually come across a time where people took experience into account when reading and improved it because they did.
I know I brought up this topic but I've been feeling it for a while and eventually wanted to vent. I want to go back to scumhunting but at this point what I need more than votecount is if people are still alive =P

And the whole IC thing aside, I think having "two stars of the show" is actually anti-town. Means 7 people (since you can be part of the two) fly relatively under the radar intentionally or not. And also, even with extensions the deadline's closing in and the game's so lukewarm this is especially the case.

[Count Dooku]

Since the deadline is close, I will put my vote down + short readlist.

My last vote was on

House

. But that was kind of an omgus vote, and I wasn't calm enough. I don't have a strong scumread on him anymore. But I don't like when people don't give useful answers, especially in a game where the questions and answers are pretty important. Null.
(VDA didn't do alignment indicative things imo).

RayFrost

: Helps the town. Gives answers, scumhunts, enough active. Town.

Tammy

: Active, always gives answers, scumhunts. Town.

Dani

: I don't like post 101. He pretty much summed every false statements that 2b1s said about me. Nothing original. Null for now. Not enough posts.

2b1s

: Early game: he tries everything to push a mislynch on me, even lies. Nowadays: imo no alignment indicative post. Lean scum.

deathfisaro

: I like his posts. I nearly agree with him about everything. However he only talks about his impressions, but barely ever do some real scumhunting. Town.

TheBreeze

: Useful posts. I liked his reaction when he was under pressure at the beginning. 339 is something that I dislike. You should never vote somebody just because (s)he (or anyone else) told you to do it. Plus "I don't like her posting style" is not a reason. I don't care if that was a joke or not. I have no problem with jokes until the joke itself doesn't contain a vote (apart from RVS). Lean town.

firebound

: Posts 85 and 123. He states that he has no problem with my accidental L-1 vote on Breeze.

Like I said before, my ability to lie is abysmal and my ability to read between the lines is worse.

I don't like this sentence. It bothers me so much.
It will be a very good exuse if one of his mislynch push happens in the future. He just need to say. "Oh I am sorry... I am pretty bad at this game."
In my last game (1551) I used the newbie card occasionally, and that is fairly similar to this. I was scum...

And guess what happened after this post (129). He moved his vote onto me, without giving any reasons. He saw that he is not able to WK me anymore.
After hee saw that the majority don't like this vote:

TheFreeze pressured me to vote and there was 2 wagon going on. I decided to vote on one of them.

Man this game is rough.

This is not a reason. A) you should never vote because someone said that he wants you to vote. B) Why do you think you have to vote on of the 2 "wagoners". Crap excuse.

My vote against dooku was mainly a gut feeling because he seems to be defending himself so much with his most recent posts and getting angry at people attacking him and/or not understanding him.

No. I only "get angry" whn poeple (2b1s) try to fool the town with lies, fabricated scumreads.
Recently he is lurking. If he won't come back or I don't have a stronger scumread, I am happy to lynch him. VOTE: firebound12

[Count Dooku]

EBWOP

If he won't come back or I don't have a stronger scumread, I am happy to lynch him.

I mean unless he comes back and I have a stronger scumread, I am happy to lynch him.

Why do you think you have to vote on of the (...)

I mean "Why do you think you have to vote one of the (...)?"

[fferyllt]

firebound12 has been prodded.

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 1.8

Thalia is usually portrayed as having a joyous air about her, holding a traditional Greek theater comedic mask. She is also sometimes seen carrying a bugle or trumpet which were used as voice amplifiers on stage.

firebound12

(2): deathfisaro, Count Dooku

Count Dooku

(1): 2birds1stone

House

(1): RayFrost

2birds1stone

(1): Tammy

Not Voting

(4): House, TheBreeze, firebound12, Dani

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: December 31, Midnight Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2014-12-30 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[deathfisaro]

Just ISO'd my top suspects, and given 175~190 (funny how these are now 200 posts ago but still are "recent") I find 2b1s scummier than firebound12 now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: 2birds1stone

@Dooku: I like 391. You admit your mistakes and can calm down and move on to make better plays. Shows maturity.
And after reading your post, I think giving reads list may be a good way to CPR this game. So I'll join in.

Victor-House:

Null-null as I previously stated (nothing of worth was posted since then by him).

RayFrost:

Was forever townreading him and still do. Seriously considered just sheeping him but the only reason I didn't was because I wanted to learn other things in a newbie game first.

Tammy:

I'd say null, or mixed bag. Has mixed tempo? Sometimes gentle sometimes more assertive, I assume walking the middle of the road to avoid getting NK'd first. But I can't tell if the middle path is acting scummy as town or acting towny as scum. If I read House and Tammy correctly this game, I'm gonna self-crown myself grown out of newbie status (skillwise, as I'm gonna grow out of newbie status site rule wise soon regardless of how well I play anyway =P).

Dani:

Null for not much activity. If this continues I'll have to question if intentionally lurking but over holiday season it's really hard to tell, so null has to do for now.

2birds1stone:

I placed my vote on him, can I make it any more obvious? Well, as VTs, people are not very interested in town PRs but his intent for hammer was solely to draw out a claim. The first thing I'd ask is a reads list because that's useful information but he jumped straight to "claim please." Subconscious mind speaking. And not even 12 hours before that "claim please" he said "do not claim", and you know what I hate. I figure he was going to draw out an easy claim slowly, expecting the wagon to hold strong but didn't so became impatient. My strongest scumread.

theBreeze:

haven't really followed up since coming to California, initially was one of my scumread/scumleans and I'd keep scumlean but not much.

firebound12:

still loaded with things I don't like, he's gone through difference phases it's become harder to read whether it's scummy or just bad town play. Gone from scumread to scumlean.

Count Dooku:

I think he picked up his game a lot. I didn't meta him but other people said he plays differently from his first scum game. I haven't found anything that would change my mind since my last read on him myself so I'm standing by my townread. If he pulls off a major plot twist and flips scum I'm gonna be so defeated I don't know how I'll cope with it so please be town lol.

And this is 2 games in a row where people tell me I only post impressions and cast suspicions here and there but never scumhunt. I guess there is still a transition hurdle from playing offline to online.

[deathfisaro]

Ugh wanted to post more in detail but was constantly getting meatworld prodded while writing it. I might not be available until Monday afternoon~night but I'll try to check in sooner if possible.

[House]

Since the deadline is close, I will put my vote down + short readlist.

Thanks for this, I will give my opinions on those reads.

My last vote was on

House

. But that was kind of an omgus vote, and I wasn't calm enough. I don't have a strong scumread on him anymore. But I don't like when people don't give useful answers, especially in a game where the questions and answers are pretty important. Null.
(VDA didn't do alignment indicative things imo).

Your ability to assess your play for rash thinking is a strength, you will do well when you get experienced because you are already analyzing your own play as well as that of others.

RayFrost

: Helps the town. Gives answers, scumhunts, enough active. Town.

I'm not clear on what you mean by helping town, but you should be cautious on how you consider actions to be helpful.

Answers can be deceptive. Even a truthful answer is deceptive if it is used with the intent to mislead (ie, being truthful on game theory in order to buy town cred)

Saying that one is scum hunting isn't conclusive, because scum can certainly appear to scum hunt, especially in newbie games where newbie town frequently participate in scummy behavior.

Activity is not indicative of alignment.

Tammy

: Active, always gives answers, scumhunts. Town.

Dani

: I don't like post 101. He pretty much summed every false statements that 2b1s said about me. Nothing original. Null for now. Not enough posts.

You just made a scum case on Dani and read him as null.

2b1s

: Early game: he tries everything to push a mislynch on me, even lies. Nowadays: imo no alignment indicative post. Lean scum.

Between 2b1s and Dani, Dani is the more likely of the scum between the two judging by your own reads list.

What you call lies may simply be a different interpretation of events.

That he has been coming after you do hard could be considered scum hunting. He doesn't have access to your role pm.

deathfisaro

: I like his posts. I nearly agree with him about everything. However he only talks about his impressions, but barely ever do some real scumhunting. Town.

I understand the urge to town read someone with a Like mindset because of the assumption that like mindset may = same alignment, but the absence of scum hunting should be a red flag that pushes him into null territory.

TheBreeze

: Useful posts. I liked his reaction when he was under pressure at the beginning. 339 is something that I dislike. You should never vote somebody just because (s)he (or anyone else) told you to do it. Plus "I don't like her posting style" is not a reason. I don't care if that was a joke or not. I have no problem with jokes until the joke itself doesn't contain a vote (apart from RVS). Lean town.

I don't even know what to say to this...

firebound

: Posts 85 and 123. He states that he has no problem with my accidental L-1 vote on Breeze.

So? People make mistakes. Why are you suspicious that your mistake (if that is what it was) want being held against you?

Like I said before, my ability to lie is abysmal and my ability to read between the lines is worse.

I don't like this sentence. It bothers me so much.
It will be a very good exuse if one of his mislynch push happens in the future. He just need to say. "Oh I am sorry... I am pretty bad at this game."
In my last game (1551) I used the newbie card occasionally, and that is fairly similar to this. I was scum...

And guess what happened after this post (129). He moved his vote onto me, without giving any reasons. He saw that he is not able to WK me anymore.
After hee saw that the majority don't like this vote:

TheBreeze pressured me to vote and there was 2 wagon going on. I decided to vote on one of them.

Man this game is rough.

This is not a reason. A) you should never vote because someone said that he wants you to vote. B) Why do you think you have to vote on of the 2 "wagoners". Crap excuse.

Conf bias. If he hadn't voted, He could have been criticized for withholding his vote. If he had voted for an unlikely lynch, that could be construed as scummy (avoiding VCA).

Actions mean little, motives mean much.

My vote against dooku was mainly a gut feeling because he seems to be defending himself so much with his most recent posts and getting angry at people attacking him and/or not understanding him.

No. I only "get angry" whn poeple (2b1s) try to fool the town with lies, fabricated scumreads.
Recently he is lurking. If he won't come back or I don't have a stronger scumread, I am happy to lynch him. VOTE: firebound12

I could see a null/scum read at worst due to your case. Dani is a better vote. So much so, in fact, that you have sold me on her.

VOTE: Dani

[fferyllt]

Seeking a replacement for firebound12.

[Count Dooku]

I'm not clear on what you mean by helping town, but you should be cautious on how you consider actions to be helpful.

Answers can be deceptive. Even a truthful answer is deceptive if it is used with the intent to mislead (ie, being truthful on game theory in order to buy town cred)

Saying that one is scum hunting isn't conclusive, because scum can certainly appear to scum hunt, especially in newbie games where newbie town frequently participate in scummy behavior.

Activity is not indicative of alignment.

At least he gives answers. And at least he asks others, tries to scumhunt. If you had to choose between "doesn't do anything" and "does something that helps the town" which one would you choose? Activity can be alignment indicative.

I think

if someone lurks all the time, he is more likely scum than town.

You just made a scum case on Dani and read him as null.

He can be a newbtown, who tries to sheep to get "buddies".

Between 2b1s and Dani, Dani is the more likely of the scum between the two judging by your own reads list.

Nah. 2b1s is an SE, whereas Dani is a newbie. Maybe he is afraid of tell his honest reads.

That he has been coming after you do hard could be considered scum hunting.

If I scumhunt I don't put my vote down, epecially when the game is at the very beginning.

but the absence of scum hunting should be a red flag that pushes him into null territory.

And this is 2 games in a row where people tell me I only post impressions and cast suspicions here and there but never scumhunt. I guess there is still a transition hurdle from playing offline to online.

Here you go. Plus I don't say that he doesn't scumhunt, I only say that he doesn't scumhunt that much.

I don't even know what to say to this...

You mean you don't know what to say to this, or you don't know what to say to this

because

what I said there is a piece of shit? If so, please tell me what is your problem with my read on TheBreeze, because this is pretty much the point of the game. To ask others, to give answers and to tell your impressions. I think.